I’m about to set up my grinder dedicated to sharpening turning tools. I have a white wheel, fine grit — 120 methinks. For heavier stock removal, I was looking at the pink 60-grit wheel. Is this on the right track?
Anyone have a good on-line source? Also, which wheel dresser do you prefer? I have one of those T-shaped ones, probably a cheapo.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Jamie,
I run a 120-grit white wheel on my 6" grinder and it works alright. I think that the blue ones are regarded as the best. OneWay makes them, as does Norton (3X). I use a diamond t-shaped wheel dresser. OneWay's Wolverine system has a micrometer wheel dresser to make your wheels last as long as possible. It's about $80, so for me it's not really a justifyable purchase to true my $25 wheel, which will probably last me another 20 years?
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
FG,
I like the Norton 32A's, others prefer the SG's or the 3X SG's. 60 grit would be a good match to your 120. I for one believe you get what you pay for in stones, as I have had better luck with the Norton stones than say, the Woodcraft house brand, as far as ease of tuning, cleaning, etc. I have a 60 and 100 (the WC may be a 120) grit of both the Norton 32A and the "other" brands, and the Nortons clearly outclass the others. Just my $.02. I do use the WC 60 grit on another grinder, but it's purely for hogging any and all material. Keep in mind that good stones last half of forever, so if you figure the cost over many years, the per year cost of a really good stone is still extremely cheap, considering what you get in return.
The t-bar dresser is just as good as any. Make sure that your stones are dressed AND running true. You don't want your tools bouncing around on the stone. This applies to freehand or jig sharpening. Sometimes you get lucky with your grinder/stone setup, sometimes you have to work a bit to get it right. That's the way most things go, eh? There are some tricks to balancing if things go awry...........
Craft Supplies and Packard stock these stones.
Hope this has confused you sufficiently..........:)
Rich
Thanks for the info and insights, Richard. I'm looking around right now at the wheels. In the meantime.....might you elaborate on "There are some tricks to balancing if things go awry........... " Are there tricks outside of the purchase of a Oneway wheel balancing kit??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG, Paper shims, turning your own bushings, etc. Keep in mind, the Oneway balancing system only works if you have at least a 1" through hole in your stones...........As long as you can get something that you're comfortable with, you should be good. Perfection isn't really attainable/necessary in a grinding wheel. As Napie said, 60 grit is fine, some folks use a 36 grit and are happy. Whatever works for you.Rich
"...60 grit is fine, some folks use a 36 grit and are happy." I was mostly looking for info on what type of wheel (the material it's made of). The info you gave me was very helpful. I still have a question in my mind about what's the best to use for substantially reshaping the tip of a tool, but I haven't had much time to read about it yet either.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The courser the grit the cooler it runs.If you have little experience at radical reshaping of the tool ,my suggestion is use a 60 grit ,pink or blue wheel and DO NOT press hard.Cool the tip frequently though HSS will stand a bit of bluing without loosing much unlike HCS.You can reshape on 120 grit white but it will eat the stone more ,you will have to use butterfly wing pressure and be real quick to quench the tip.Therefore a great chance of failure.But in the absence of anything else it will work I have done it frequently ,just you need more experience to be successful.
FG,I use an 8" 3X 60 grit for my turning tools. Moderate pressure will do a fine job. It is a bit slow for initial shaping of a tool, but you do that just the first time and after that you are really just touching up an edge.You may find that it is handy to have a couple of the same gouges on hand that you can put different grind angles on. Different woods, different bowl shapes, different gouges. That sort of thing. I know you were asking about tool brands in another thread. I have a couple of Oneway gouges that are ok, but don't clear chips too well. I have a P&N gouge that I really like. There is a lot to do with the shape and depth of the flute. Rounded vs 'V' shaped, and how deep in the tool it is cut. Learn to use whatever you have, hang out with some other turners and give their tools a try before you jump in and buy a dozen different ones.Cheers and ChipsAndy
Hi, Andy, thanks for the info. "Different woods, different bowl shapes, different gouges. That sort of thing. " I hope to get to that point in the next 3 mos. or so! Starting with spindle-type turning....tops, candlesticks. Would like to get started on small bowls soon. I have some cherry and a bunch of maple layin' around that'll be good for practice, alder also. I can get as much plain wood as I could possibly use, just hand the chainsaw to hubby!
There are two burls growing on a topped (not by us) cherry tree. When I feel like I can do them justice, that tree will come down.
"Learn to use whatever you have, hang out with some other turners and give their tools a try before you jump in and buy a dozen different ones." Will head to the local (30 miles) AAW meetings soon.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 11/1/2009 10:34 pm by forestgirl
Save those burls for the future.Here is how it goes. You will no longer be able to pass over a chunk of wood again with looking at it and thinking Hmm... Every time I head down into my shop now to do some thing I always end up at the lathe. It's just there. Perched quietly off to one side. Winking at me. Whispering. "C'mon, you know you want to."I am weak. But it's ok.You have the advantage of starting with a class. I have been 'self teaching' myself to turn. It is without a doubt the hardest thing I have tried yet. A whole different approach to the wood and the tools. I am finally starting to make some strides, but the learning curve is pretty steep.Just watching someone else stand at the lathe can do a lot. My epiphany was going to the woodturners symposium in Portland a couple of years ago. I came away from that weekend with a new understanding of how it's done.I have a couple of things I have pulled out of the firewood pile and thrown on the lathe. Some of the nicest spalted stuff comes from there. You won't be able to overlook anything.Like all the rest of wood working, as you well know, there are many ways to do the same task. Tools, machinery, sharpening... Everyone has an opinion. Look around, try to get as broad a view as you can, and then figure what fits you. Starting with Bonnie Kliens' class is certainly starting at the top, but I will guess that if you go watch 10 different turners work, afterwards you will have 9.5 different way to do something. Try 'em all. Who knows.Andy
I'm impressed you've been able to learn on your own! I had no problem doing that with the other tools -- table saw, router, band saw. But the lathe? No way, I definitely needed someone right there to show and guide me, especially the very basic safety stuff and how to lay tool to wood.
I won't be able to afford more than one class a year, but I plan to get going with the AAW chapter not too far from here. Everyone says that woodturners are the friendliest and most helpful group of woodworkers there is. Also, there seem to be alot of videos on the internet, so that's an alternate source.
You're spot-on about the wood obsession, that started the minute I left class! I'm lucky to live pretty much in a forest. And there's a great lumber miller on the island, I know I'll be able to find some good stuff through him when the time comes. He's the one who had the 4' high maple burl last year, eventually sliced into 3-4" slices, huge!
Well, I've settled on a 60-grit pink wheel from Woodcraft for the other wheel. If I were starting from scratch, I'd go to Packards and get a 46-grit and an 80-grit Norton 3X-SG, but will just have to complement the pink wheel already in the stable.
Thanks for the help and encouragement! By Wednesday, I should have the lathe fired up and give it a go!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"The courser the grit the cooler it runs." This makes sense, but it's actually new information to me, and very helpful. I'd have been deceived by the finer grit, thinking of that as being the safer choice for the inexperienced.
Still trying to figure out the difference between the pink and the blue. Not as easy as it is with babies.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Just like babies pink= female soft, blue = male harder gray????? not sure <G>
My only wheel is a course (60 grit?) white wheel. You want a soft wheel that will easily wear away. You also want a course wheel that will cut quickly. Both will help to keep the tool cool. Also, keep the wheel dressed. I use the old fashion type spinning star wheel dresser. If you need a cleaner edge (say, for a skew), you can hone it on a bench stone.
Thanks, sapwood, nice to hear from others who don't go overboard with fancy sharpening equipment for this purpose.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG, I use a 60 grit wheel for all my turning tools and go straight from it to the wood, which is all I have ever needed and have had no problems at all.
Thanks, Napie. You're confirming a welcome fact that turning chisels, for the most part, don't need the extreme TLC that so many lavish on their plane blades and regular chisels. However, since I have this white wheel that's been resting in a drawer for several years, I'll go with the two-wheel approach.
I've had to share my grinder with my ax-wielding husband until recently, hence the white wheel hidden and labelled "Jamie ONLY!!" We have an extra grinder now, so it'll be His n' Hers.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie,
You will soon see for yourself the difference between those two wheels, but I think I am right in saying that the pink one will be "softer" and since it is also a coarser grit than the white one you have it will cut faster and with less heat.
But what I would like to be able to demonstrate to you is the difference you get when using a cluster diamond type dresser compared to a single point diamond.Even though it is only for the sharpening and grinding of your lathe chisels , I would urge you to get a single point diamond dresser as well-they are cheap and last for ever. The single point dresser will produce a much "sharper" wheel which means you grind with less pressure and therefore less heat.Use the cluster type when you need a flat wheel face and the single point when you need to shape or true the wheel-or to make it cut fast.
So just mount both those wheels-and keep in mind that dressing and conditioning are critical-of far more importance than the differences between the two wheels you have.
Philip, thanks much for your input. I've never tried a single-point dresser, but Bonnie had one in class that she had made from a tossed-off diamond saw blade (cement cutting?). A resourceful one, that woman. ;-) I think I'll just buy one.
My concern, though, would be that I could maneuver the single-point dresser in an accurate enough manner. Any tricks to this?
Another question.....I didn't take enough notes in class (for someone my age).....I know sometimes the side of the wheel is brought into play, for certain grinding operations. Can you give me some "for instance"s??
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes, better to buy one made for that job-it will be securely mounted usually in the end of a rod of around 3/8ths diameter or so.
Very easy to manouever-you just use the tool rest set so that the point is square on-you don't want to grind the steel surrounding the diamond otherwise it will disappear.You merely move it lightly back and forth across the face of the wheel. If you are not easy with that you could mount the rod onto a flat piece of wood for better control. I just use mine free hand.Much easier to do than to describe....
In theory the side of the wheel is Verboten-but this applies only if heavy pressure is applied especially to thin wheels like 1/4 inch and less. However, nowadays where paranoia rules it easier just to issue a blanket Verboten Notice.....
The sides of the wheel are used for sharpening twist drill bits, especially if you do it free hand-I think we have been there before. In fact the sides of grinding wheels usually fitted to bench grinders can be used safely for many things, including lathe chisels - better grinders even have tool rests that allow this.
There will now be an outcry so let's go for a coffee....
Philip Marcou
Philip,I also use the sides. And I cut tails first.There, I've said it, it's out in the open. I feel better now.Rich
Here is a chart for decoding the labels on grinding wheels.
Strangely enough, there is no mention of SG (Seeded Grit) wheels, which are blue in colour. Actually I have found no advantage in the use of this type on a surface grinder, and they cost about four times the price of white Aluminium Oxide wheels, and I assume the same applies to their use on bench grinders.
Philip Marcou
Hi, Philip, I just found your post today. Thanks for the decoding chart. I ran across a few excerpted pages (excerpted.....is that a word? maybe not).....anyway, some pages from Leonard Lee's Complete Guide to Sharpening tonight, part of which discusses the seeded grit wheels. No temptation for me to buy one, too expensive, but the info was very interesting:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Philip,Thanks for the photo.
Good info.
If you wouldn't mind, could you post the name of the book?Thanks,Boiler
Boil,
The little book is called "Engineer's Black Book", second edition, by Pat Rapp, ISBN 0-9580571-1-7. Mine cost NZ$39.
Printed in Australia- write [email protected] .
Seems to be avery condensed version of Machinery's Handbook so good to have at hand in the shop.Philip Marcou
Philip,Thank you, It wasn't hard to find -- but it wasn't on Amazon. Apparently they control the distribution and probably at $21 USD don't have enough profit margin to give to book sellers. It seems to only be available through equipment dealers. I have ordered one fromhttp://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=7000and their master site is:
http://engineersblackbook.wordpress.com/Includes a free aluminum drill point sharpening gauge in a vinyl pocket.They also have a neat book on fasteners and another on electrical.
Your always a good source.Thanks againBoil
Excellent.
Did you see that book called "The Art of Japanese Joinery" in the Toolmonger site?
These links are dangerous.☺Philip Marcou
So are the joints in that book!
Not sure I'd want to try some of them in reeeealy hard wood. Leave that for Derek. It's no wonder they developed the 30,000 grit stones.
Love it.
Philip,And , yes the links are totally dangerous (financially speaking) and some of the podcasts on Toolmonger are a real hoot. "The One Beer Projects", and the Tooltalk "projects" like "DIY Wedding Rings & Heirloom Shopsmiths”
It's hard to concentrate on Japanese joinery listening to that stuff.Boil
Philip,
I replied without seeing your attachment. Basically the same as I wrote.
Dan
FG,I have the Wolverine sharpening stuff and they have a single point diamond dresser. It has a mount that the diamond tool leans against to keep it square to the face of the wheel.And of course as Philip has said, no one ever should sharpen along the side of the wheel. Unless you had to. But that is sort of a 'tails first' mentality.I have a couple of books, Raffan and Conover, but as I am sure you can understand now there is no substitute for seeing someone else stand and turn.Philip, I only have the one wheel I use for sharpening. Can you really feel the difference in 'softness' between the different wheels? And is there much difference in the edge you get from a 46 grit wheel vs the edge from a 60 grit wheel?Andy
Edited 11/2/2009 8:46 am ET by AndyE
"Can you really feel the difference in 'softness' between the different wheels?"
Yes-anyone can. Each grade has a rating symbol- read it off the code written on the label. I will find the explanation of the meaning for each letter an post it here. Norton has there own system, Carborundum Universal another system.Philip Marcou
Some people are of the opinion that the skew should not be hollow ground therefore they use the side of the wheel to achieve a flat grind.I think it's much ado about nothing and sharpening on the side of the stone to achieve a flat grind increases the risk, albeit slightly, of the stone exploding in your face.I turn profusely and have never used a stone coarser than 120. Like all sharpening, the point is to do the touchups before the edge is too far gone. It's crucial, I think, to achieve a set up that promotes walking over and hitting the tool quickly on the stone and then back to the turning.I hollow grind my skews and before using it to do final planing cuts on between-center turnings will take a pocket ceramic stone to the tool. It does make a difference.
Edited 11/2/2009 9:41 am ET by Marsupial
Hollow ground skew, moi aussi.R
Forestgirl,
The white wheel is most likely a 38A wheel. It is a slightly weaker grit (aluminum oxide as is all of the wheels discussed here) than a 32A gray wheel.. And will break down faster. That is good for cool grinding.The pink wheel is a WA wheel that has a grit that breaks down Evan easier and will grind cooler. The 120 grit size is rather fine and not meant for material removal but for finishing, I would not recommend the blue (AZ) wheel for hand grinding. Also, the grit of a grinding wheel is orientated to the surface it is meant to be ground on. A class 1 wheel (round) is meant to be used on the peripheral surface of the wheel, not the side. Grinding on the side will glaze up the wheel and burn the tool quite rapidly
Besides the grit size, the hardness of the bond must be considered. That is the letter after the grit size. Higher in the alphabet, the harder the bond. For hand grinding a range of I to K should work well combined withe a grit size of 46 to 80.
A WA-46K or a 38A-46K are good wheels for fast material removal. A 38A-80I gives a nice finish but will not remove allot of material without burning.
Go coarser in your grit size for fast cool material removal (46). I do have a source and know a person that is very knowledgeable in abrasives. It is a company in the US and in Illinois.
Just some of my thoughts. Dan
Thanks, Dan, for the very detailed info, which I'll print out. I'm using mostly the pink wheel, just occasionally the white. Somewhere down the road, probably Jan or Feb when my income picks up, I'm going to replace these wheels with some Norton's at lower grits. I'm not at all pleased with the quality of the "trueness" of these two wheels, especially the white one. [Ummmmm, well, wait a minute......I'll swap the wheels right to left to make sure it isn't my grinder.]
I'll be cautious about side-grinding. I know that approach is taken for specific tasks, but always carefully and not unnecessarily. Setting up a belt sander a la Derek Cohen will probably obviate any neccessity to side-grind ;-) .forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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