I’m making some wood cold air return grates for a friend. (the ones on the 50’s houses that seem to be broken in almost every house) The wood is 3/8 inch thick and when i shoot the 23 gauge pin through the 3/8 piece into the end grain i get a lot of pins running out the sides. Some of the pins don’t even make it through the first 3/8 inch thick piece before popping out the side. (One got me in the thumb which caused a little cursing….)
Some specifics:
Porter Cable pins, 3/4″ length
3/8″ material both shooting through and into.
I’ve tried orienting the gun multiple ways and it doesn’t seem to make a difference.
The material is Ash. (i had some around and looks close enough to oak for what my freind is doing)
The gun is a cheapy from Harbor Freight.
PSI is around 100
The weak link seems to be the gun but i don’t know if this should have any impact on the finished result. Maybe it’s the ash? It has nothing to do with how close i am to an edge. i had some that were close to one edge and popped out on the opposite side. Maybe following the grain?
thanks,
Mike
Replies
I think you are right about following the grain with that gauge of pin. I had that happen with maple for instance, but not in mahogany.
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
For what its worth, I have a dewalt brad nailer that does the same thing, especially with 2" brads. It is especially bad with fir. The slender brads will hit a growth ring or something else hard and deflect.
I was stunned the first time I saw about an inch of brad come back at me out of a board. I have since learned to expect it. Obviously, one does not want to be holding the piece being fastened within 2" inches of the entry point with ones fingers.
Mike,
I doubt that it is the gun, my Cadex does the same thing, invariably on the last piece of factory finished kitchen crown I'm installing :-(. Almost never a problem with pine or poplar, a big problem with oak, maple and cherry. Use the shortest pin you can get away with.
Often in error but NEVER in doubt!
Thanks. I guess the big question I had was whether it was worth investing in a better gun. Do you notice any difference in the fasteners? Is one brand less prone to bending because they are harder?
I could never justify spending a couple hundred bucks on a pin nailer but this little HF one for $30 seems to be money well spent. Maybe i don't know what I am missing with a good one?
Mike
Mike,
All I've ever used is the Cadex so I can't say if the better gun is worth the money, when I got mine Cadex and Grex were the only game in town. I use either Bostich or Cadex pins and have the same problem with both. I think the issue is you can only get some much stiffness out of a 23ga piece of wire. It's a pain when they blow out, but I couldn't live without the gun.
Often in error but NEVER in doubt!
I considered picking up one of those, they had them on sale for about 20 bucks a few months ago, but I couldn't think of a use for a pin nailer. As a rule I avoid HF tools if i want something good, I consider them for intermittent or 1 time use tools. That said, i own one of their bandsaw metal cutoff tools that after a LOT of tweaking, cuts all of the ferrous metal in my shop quite well, but you have to watch it because the motor is not thermally protected and will catch fire (yellow flames) if it stalls. I also own a 7 dollar side grinder (Homier tools)that I don't use because it smells of burning epoxy whenever I run it, even at no load.The corners I would expect to be cut with an air nailer would be the hardness of some of the metals, the tolerance to which it was built, and the fit and finish of the product. I would expect pins being jammed in the gun during use too. It really is hit and miss with the quality of their stuff, but to be fair, all cheap tools are hit and miss.
Edited 8/26/2009 8:43 pm ET by Michael666
I picked it up on a whim when i was at HF buying acid brushes and shop rags. It has come in handy many times since i bought it. I've been helping a friend (builder) out with random small cabinet jobs and the gun works pretty well for holding 1/4" edge banding on plywood while the glue sets. i could use the 18 guage but the little pin holes save a little time because the primer is usually enough to fill them in. (These aren't FWW type cabinets...)
I've probably put a couple thousand pins through the thing and never had it jam once. The fit and finish leaves a bit to be disired but it doesnt seem to effect the use at all. My main gripe is that there is no way of knowing when it is getting low on pins and it only takes one sleeve of pins at a time. So when i get to near the end of the sleeve i have to keep checking to see when it runs dry or i pull out what's left of the sleeve and throw in a new one.
I went in knowing it was a disposable tool but for $30 I was willing to take a chance. If it broke today, I wouldn't shed a tear for the tool or the money i spent.
Mike
It's not the gun, nor the brand of pins. Woods with pronounced grain at just the right angle will deflect 23ga pins.
I have had the same thing happen with 18ga brads when shooting case to door jambs. For that matter, I've even had 16d sinkers do that on rare occasions while framing.
Are you gluing them? If so, you can let the glue dry and then pull the errant pins out with pliers.
BruceT
Edited 8/27/2009 3:25 am by brucet9
Bruce,
Yeah, I am glueing them. i've tried pulling them through since they don't have a head but half the time they break off so now i just snip them tight so they aren't noticable.
I've also been glueing the cross slates and pin nailing them but i think i should be fine with just glue on those. The fit is tight enough that i have to pound them in the dados with a hammer. I'm guessing the pin nailing isn't really doing anything for me except causing some frustration.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike ,
For those errant pins try grabbing them with your nippers or whatever you use to grab them and bend them to and fro until they break off, this bending action usually breaks them below the surface. This works with 23 -16 gauge as well.
I have found 23 gauge pins useful is when making draws out of 1/2 or 5/8 baltic birch. I rabbit the corners then glue and run pins through both sides of the corner, in essence lacing the corner together. The pins are barely noticeable.
Tom.
Mike, as others have stated, it can happen with any brand of tool. However, I have noticed that some of the HF tools have looser margins of tolerance, which could contribute to more problems. I have been shooting fasteners for over 30 years, and would like to say that there are a lot of incidences where it can be predicted if you know what to expect. While Ash is usually more uniform density than some other woods, it is a ring-porous wood. And the early wood where the pores are more open is a path of least resistance, so the fastener will turn to follow the ring if it can. Some woods which are still worse, are SY Pine, Fir, Rift Oak etc. When you look at a strip of fasteners, you should notice that the ends are usually wedge shaped. You will get better results if you shoot with the wedge across the end-grain, rather than dividing it. If you have the blade end splitting the grain, the heel of a bevel will deflect away from any harder line to one side. If you learn to expect this, you can compensate by tilting the gun more with the bevels across the grain. Then the corner of the blade on the end stands a better chance of cutting into the harder wood without deflecting. Besides that, a good argument can be made that opposing angled fasteners hold better than those which are straight in. Back when I was a young carpenter, before any of us had guns, The good ones knew when to flatten the end of a nail that would be driven near the end of a fir or other easy to split board before driving it and ;having it split. This is very similar, but harder because of the thinness. My brads are all beveled with the blade parallel to the nail strip. All the finish nails for my Senco SFN2 are perpendicular to that. Staples are like the brads, so keep your magazine perpendicular to the grain of the first board, like the brads, and try to know how the annual rings run through it. When I am building something where I use a helper, I always do the cutting, while my helper does the nailing. Often I look up just in time to see a helper making a mistake that I could avoid. If the results is as I would expect, I try to explain why, then show how to avoid it next time, so it is not VooDoo. There are variables.
Keith,I worked for a master carpenter like you. It was one of the best experiences in my life. I learned a lot about carpentry and life. I'm sure you have a lot to teach.Rob Kress
You said they don't make it through the 3/8" sometimes , right ?
Have you tried using more pressure ? You said around 100psi , make sure , unless the driver / piston or O rings are worn in the gun thats about it .
I don't think it's the pins , the HF tool simply may not have what it takes to give consistent results an various materials . I can only compare my experience using Senco fastening tools , but I have had some blowout but only when using 1 1/2" length shooting through 13/16" hardwood into plywood .
If you had to you could always drill pilot holes on the drill press and hand nail them off.
regards dusty
Mike meant that some of the pins came out of the surface before they had even gotten through the 3/8" material.BruceT
For what its worth, your problem is not unique to you, to your gun, to your pins -- not even to pinning.
It happens with all guages of finish nails, and it even happens with framing nails in a framing gun.
The good news is that you learned this while using the tiny pins, and the pain involved was proportional. If you ever see video of a framing crew, you'll probably notice that they hold the board a foot or so away from where they hit it with the gun.
That's because of such blow-outs. And about one in a few thousand will not only bend and stick out -- it will bend and launch out.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
"And about one in a few thousand will not only bend and stick out -- it will bend and launch out."Now that's food for thought! I'd never considered the launch aspect.-Michael
>>"I'd never considered the launch aspect."Don't spend your life worrying about it, just be careful to have your hands and fingers in a safe enough place. I use a freming nailer often enough to have seen a few launched nails. The ones I've seen were when nailing sheet-goods to a stud, and the bending nail misses most of the stud.By the time it bends in the wood, and exits the wood, its moving a lot slower. And it has never been a javelin-throw-style of flight. More like if you tossed a bent nail, trying to get the most spin.(On the other hand, never walk into a building while the roof sheathing is being nailed down. When a nail misses a rafter completely, that nail is still going straight and fast.It's one more reason (good reason) for safety regulations like long pants, safety glasses, and such.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
This article
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Nailers.htm
describes how to work so as to minimize the problem.
Thanks for the link.
Mike
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