Hi I’m looking in to buying a 3/4 HP Shop Fox Bench top model Mortising maching and wondered if any one could give me advice on if 3/4 HP is enough and the overall maching or another Brand.
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I have the General, made in Canada... and I do not know what the HP rating is and I do not have any experience with the shopfox (disclaimer).
With that said, 3/4 hp is fine. It doesn't take a lot of HP to drill a hole. It's the sharp chisel that does the most of the work.
Thank You muchFor the information.
It's the sharp chisel that does the most of the work.
RIGHT ON!
The power of the motor is the least of your worries. It only has to run a drill bit after all!
Of far more importance is the stiffness of the column(s), how well the lever is designed, the adjustability of the fence, how much space is under the chuck, and the strength of the hold-downs.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
This is what I use to help holding down the stock on my Delta mortiser - see pictures.
For details, see this page of my web site - http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org/HoldDown.htm
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
I used pretty much the same thing on the Shopfox I sold Bob, Serge. Except I used the Quick-Clamps instead of the C clamps you picture. You might give a Quick-clamp a try as I got to the point of attach and release much as you would pressing in the cluthch pedal on your car... Quickly and while taking a nap as you just get the feel. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Morning Sarge,
I'm just starting to use the SF and with the LV chi9sels/bits it works really well. Like the idea of the Q-clamps and have a couple of 18" Irwins for deployment. I'm realizing that factory setups leave a bit to be desired - almost seem to be backward for the task.
Wondering if I set the fence back and use a combo of spacers and q-clamps if that might work. Also the height adjustment of the factory hold-down is a bit of a pain but I don't think that's unique to the SF.
On another woodworking adventure,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
Hope you're doing fine. Yesterday I say on the evening news that you had bad winds in New Hampshire. Is it okay in your area ?
Weren't you supposed to post pics of your cottage last week ?
Take care.
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Good Morning Serge,
Things are OK here - the high winds were mostly further south of me in NH. We got mostly rain and lightning. It took out our phones and my PC. I've ordered replacement parts and am using the PC @ work for now.
The pics of the cottage are on the hard drive of my sick PC so will have to wait for now. I posted some in another discussion a while back but don't remember where....................
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
Hope your PC will be back soon and at low $$$. I guess you didn't have a secure power bar since your PC was damaged by the lightning ? (I assume you didn't trip on it while you were in the dark !!!) LoL
Hope your hard drive is not damaged. By the way, as a volunteer I teach computers to elder people at my local library. At each session I emphasize on making backups, having a power bar and getting a firewall. My next session starts in September.
Being a volunteer is being alive !
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Serge,
I've been working on computers since the creation of dirt it seems. I don't know of any surge protectors that will survive a direct hit from lightning, at least any that are feasible money wise.
The thing is that a VERY HIGH percentage of computers effected by lightning are bitten through the phone line and not through its power connector. In all the years I've worked on PCs I've yet to see a hard drive fried from an electrical surge - it's always been something else in front of it that got burnt.
Great for you to be volunteering your time to help folks. I'm right around the corner from retiring and that sounds like a great way to help folks that might be computer challenged.
I should look inot that, as long as it doesn't take away time for me to stir up the porridge in here. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Many thanks for you infos. Hope there is any charge $$$!!! LoL
I was wondering if lightning could damage a PC through the phone line, and you just gave me the answer I was looking for. I should have assumed you're in PC business since you said in a prior post that you ordered the damaged pieces. I think my brain is not the sharpest tool these days !!! Not everyone order pieces for their PC (not me - except Windex for the screen).
It would be a good idea for you to volunteer related to computer. Teaching to elder people is challenging since patience is a must, but most of them really want to know about surfing the Internet, and particularly receiving and sanding emails to their grand-children. In my classes, there are 12 people (maximum allowed) for the Internet, 12 for Emails, about 7-8 for Word and 5-6 for Excel. Once I tried a class on Windows... and we got no "client". By the way, it's only 2 hours a week for 16 weeks (I should day an afternoon since I walk to the library and I have to spend some time to make photocopies for the next class). But it is great ! I'm starting my 5th year in September.
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Bob... do you see slots running front to rear on the table of the SF I sent? Turn a short 12" quick-clamp upside down and you can make a quick hold-down assist. I would also just put a quick-clamp directly on the fence and clamp the stock with one that way.
I'm going to get a picture for Serge doing similar on my current mortiser and will add a shot of a hold-down and fence clamp method. Keep in mind I have no slots in my cast iron table but will clamp one there to give you the idea.
Sarge..
By Quick-Clamps, do you mean vise clamps ? If yes, do you mount them on the table or the fence, or do they hold the stock against the fence or against the table ? Sincerely, I can't really picture your setup. Can you add a link to shown me what's a Quick-Clamps ?
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Here's a picture of some Irwin Quik-Grips (I call them quick-clamps) you can buy at any place that sells Irwin, Serge. I put them on my mortise machine to show Bob something as they are not required with my front vise which can crush your hand. :>)
So.. hopefully you can pick up the idea from these..
Regards...
Sarge..
Thanks Sarge,
A picture worths a 1000 words ! I have several of them: 12", 24" and 36". When I bought them they were sold by Vise-Grip under the name of Quick-Grip. I remember Irwin bought Vise-Grip few years ago. I admit that I was confused with the wording Quick-Clamps.
I agree with you, they are quick. Therefore, I believe the system I use is faster. Once the C-clamps are in place to hold the sub-base, I just flip the toggle clamp on and off.
Thanks again for the trouble. I like the brainstorming of this forum.
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Yep.. Vice Grip patented them I believe and were bought out by Irwin. I have about half and half of each (probably around 40 total as I do have around 100 clamps on hand in various styles .. but still always come up one short) before the buy-out. I have always called them Quick Clamps for no reason other than I have just always called them Quick Clamps based on their function. ha.. ha...
I went back and looked at your picture after your last post. I apologize as I mis-interpreted how you were using the C clamps. Looks like you are good to go! That's southern U.S. slang for all is well. :>)
Keep up the good work on your web-site, Serge.
Regards from down south...
Sarge..
Sarge, (I have to be carefull when writing your name !!!)
Thanks for your kind words about my web site. If you like it, come back every week since I've commited to myself to add something new every week - at least a tip of my own).
I guess you agree what they always say: "You can never have enough clamps." (as some other few things in life...)
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Definitely on the clamps.. I had 4 side panels on a chest on chest gluing about 3 weeks ago. 6 48".. 8 30" and had to go to 4 60" and 1 72" to do the top simultaneously. Just because you have a lot doesn't mean you have enough of the right lenght at a given moment.
I'll drop by your site. I sold my Uni-saw yesterday and cannot start the coffee table until I replace the TS in late August after the International WW Show here in Atlanta. I'm already climbing the walls as I haven't been without a TS in 37 years. I have to find something to do while going "cold turkey". ha.. ha... ha.. ha.. ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
"Cold turkey" in Georgia ??? I guess you never been in Canada. If so, you would never complain about the cold in Georgia again !!! LoL
Still in the clamps: For a while I've been thinking of buying 2 Bessey K-Body clamps 8' long. Since I'm not a professioinal, just a humble hobbyist, I'm not sure if I should go for them. The best price I could get is about $80 each. But, I mean but, if I buy them and I spread the cost over the next 10 years, this means they cost only $16 per year. If someone would rent me those 2 clamps for that price, I would definetively say yes. And since I could continue my hobby for about 20 years, they would cost me only $8 per year. Maybe one day I will go for them ! Still thinking about it !!!
If I may suggest something about the tablesaw. You could buy a benchtop model that you could use while you're waiting for the other one (instead of climbing the walls). You could use this secondary tablesaw at almost any session in the workshop to mill, as example, a board without unsetting your main tablesaw. I do have this secondary saw and I use it often. And as I mentionned before, the $180 spent, spread over 20 years, is only $9 a year. You can't imagine who many times I use it during a year. Even if it's a benchtop model, I'm sure it will last a long time since it not my main tablesaw.
And if you're looking for something to do while waiting, think if your clamps storage system needs to be upgraded. "You can never have enough storage area for clamps !" (unknown author !!!)
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Probably not a table-top, Serge. The lumber in the rack is mainly 8/4 and 10/4. I had a Ryobi BT3000 for years (it's a great saw for the money regardless if what anyone tells you) that I sold after getting the Uni-saw. I got the Uni just because I do a lot of thick ripping. I do all cross-cutting on a 12" SCMS with 16' extensions and the TS keeps a 24 T flat or 20 T flat on-board just for ripping.
But the 3 HP Uni-saw will do most without a problem. Every now and then I do need that extra assist of a 5 HP and I decided if I ever ran into a 5 HP in good condition or scratch and dent I could trade even for.. I would sell the Unio-saw and do so. That day came early this week by more of less co-incidence.
Plenty of clamp racks.. plenty of mobile table cabinets (everything at my shop is basically mobile).. plenty of jigs... all the tools I need.. as I have spent years doing that so I wouldn't have to do that. It got done and finalized about 3 years ago and at this point there is nothing except to sweep the shop or blow it out with an electric leaf blower. I have already done that about 3 times today with nothing else to do down there at the moment. :>)
I"m getting ready to go shopping which I will have to re-familiarize myself with as I don't do those kind of things much anymore. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I agree that a benchtop tablesaw is not for 8/4 nor 10/4 lumber. Seeing your lumber rack, it would jump right back into the box by itself.
As I can see you're well organized and settled (lucky guy). And you seem to have a fair size shop since you use that loaf blower. And using such a blower, I'm sure your shop is not in the basement, unless you would be dead and your wife in jail !!! LoL
Until the enjoyment of your new 5 HP tablesaw, be patient.
By the way, I'm sure such a saw would fit in my basement workshop.
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Actually I am fortunate... not as fortunate as some but more than others. I have a full two car drive-under garage that cars aren't allowed in. You don't bring cars in the shop. :>) Behind it and under-ground for the most part (my house sits on a relatively steep slope and is surrounded by hard-wood and pines) is a 1/2 basement.
I keep the 8" jointer on a mobile base back there with a mobile spindle sander.. a belt-disc sander.. mobile DW scroll saw.. low assembly table and wood rack. The 20" planer.. 18" and 12" Band-saws.. TS.. mobile SCMS.. mobile router table.. floor mortiser.. DP.. work-bench.. assembly table and cyclone are up in what I call the "cut area". If I need one of the rear machines.. I just roll it up to the cut area and do business then roll it back.
So.. around 1450 sq- ft. and I do consider myself lucky after some of the small shops I have had over the years. But do I wish and sometimes need more.. yep. Just like clamps for a WW.. always come up short some days.
Regards...
Sarge..
Wow ! Now I understand why you use a leaf blower to clean the dust out of your shop. My shop is so small compared to ours; I sneeze and the job is done !!!
I agree with you for one thing: No car allowed. In a former house, where I had a 1-1/2 car garage, nothing except the tools was accepted, even plants. On windy days I remember opening the 10' garage door and the back door and in no time the dust was blown away (except in winter though).
When I dream to much about buying a "too big tool", I say to myself: "100 years ago woodworkers didn't have power tools and the job was still done." It helps !!!
Best,
Serge- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Sarge,
I sold my Uni-saw yesterday........
OK, curiosity has the best of me - why? Getting a new one at the show? Speaking of the show, I was hoping to get out there this year, meet you and check out all the gear. Unfortunately, spending a total of 2 weeks at Lonnie Bird's school this year kind of took away my bargaining power with the boss.
Cheers,
Lee
Wish you could make the Show. If you change your mind drop by as I will likely be there all 4 days and the day before it opens.
I would have purchased a 5 HP when I got the Uni-saw 3 HP but I really couldn't afford the 5 HP. Then the deal for the factory re-conditioned Uni-saw popped up for $999 and I took it. I have had my eye since for a 5 HP used or scratch and dent. There really aren't any as most purchase a 5 HP except cabinet shops in some cases.
But.. you might say a new 5 HP at used price fell into my lap through a stroke of luck. I will pick it up the last evening of the IWF Show as it will be the floor display until then. A deal I couldn't refuse it I could sell the Uni-saw which took 10 hours total. :>)
Again.. love to see you or anyone else from the forum at the show.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
Sounds like you got a great deal. Could the new saw be a Steel City, by any chance?
My Powermatic '66 was an ebay purchase - 5hp single phase - used 6 months and then stored for 3 years in a heated/AC'd storage unit. The thing was almost mint - price tag was $1400 incl shipping. Sometimes you just can't pass up a good deal.........
Take care,
Lee
Could it be a Steel City?.. it could be? :>) ... and probably is for that matter. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
That was a nice deal on the PM 66, Lee. I actually prefer the older 66 over the current offering in build. The 2000 has it's new tech add on's but I still prefer the 66.
Regards...
Sarge..
I had the SF for 5 years and it meets all the requirements Mike mentioned. I sold it to Bob from Kidderville Estates as I ran into a deal I couldn't refuse on an Industrial floor mode. And the guys were right about drilling the hole with any drill press can do with a small motor. The chisel takes the abuse and that's where a strong column and plunge gears come into play.
BTW... no bench-top will have a good hold-down really. You have to do some improvising to improve what little is on those to achieve results.
Sarge..
"BTW... no bench-top will have a good hold-down really. You have to do some improvising to improve what little is on those to achieve results."
And that's the truth! I have a Fisch - whichI wouldn't recommend. But the hold-downs/fence got pulled right off the machine in the first few times I used it. After fixing it, I now clamp the fence to the tool's bench with C clamps.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I used quick-clamps on the fence of the Fox also Mike. The mortiser I have now requires a quick turn or two on a large wheel that is attached to a 3" x 8" clamp. I had to add a 1/2" rubber pad to the front to keep from crushing the stock as it it capable of enough pressure to crush your hand. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Morning Sarge,
The SF is alive and very well indeed. Great machine and works quite well as a drill press also. Got some o' them LV hollow chisel/bits along with the sharpening cones. Now I wanna tell ya.......... SWEET!
I'll be mortising the Queens legs real soon. Got her side panel tenons done and the positions marked out for the holes. She'll be dancin on her legs!
Now if I can just find a pattern for her apron............
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/14/2008 10:21 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 7/14/2008 10:22 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
I have a 1hp General. I think the hp you are looking at will be fine. The quality of the chiesel and the sharpness is more important in my view. This machine is quite stable and the table moves smoothly, but the hold down is only ok. I find multiple clamps are needed to avoid stock movement which can become a pain when you have a lot of mortises to do. I am seriously considering adding the mortising option to my Jointer/Planer. I have seen some of the mortises made with the european style horizontal mortisers and they are quite impressive.
Brad
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Domino by Festool. It is a hand held tool that makes mortises and then uses a loose tenon - expensive, but if I were going to get something to make mortise joints, I would sure consider it.
I love mine. It's expensive, but ease of use and it's so forgiving. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Will it put a +3" through mortise in a work-bench leg.. or do I have to spend more money at that point to get something that can? :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Dunno about you, but I dont think I want to try to lift a hand tool capable of making 3/4" mortises:) It brings up too many memories using drill on the farm that I could barely lift and catching that last piece of steel as you were about to drill through a thick piece of steel.
Brad
My mortiser can make 1 1/2" mortises and weighs 700 lbs., Brad. I don't think the trick is lifting it up but cutting the mortises before assembly. It's worked for me for a number of years. And I don't want to give the impression that the Domino is not a good tool.
It is an excellent tool considering what it does but someone has to occasionally point out it has limitation or the FT cheer-leaders will rev up the crowd and over-look the other side of the coin. Good tool with limitations.. yes! Holy Grail without any.. No!
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 7/16/2008 5:02 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sounds like you have a great machine. I wish I would have researched mine a little more before buying. I would have waited to find some old heavy iron. The basic mortiser design has not really changed all that much over the years and with a little elbow grease a fellow can have a real nice production type machine for a couple bucks more than some of the smaller new machines.
I agree the domino seems like a wonderful tool, but maybe not for this application. I use my mortiser for passage doors and like the big MT joints.
Brad
Yes it will Sarge but it will only do it in special Festool Wood Legs they are sold only by Festool :) jk
Sorry I could not resist. I went looking at some festool stuff and when I found out that the drill needed special festool bits and the sander needed special festool paper to get the holes to line up I gave up and moved on.
As for the HCM I think the HP is not that big a deal I never slowed down my old Delta (2nd generation) as when the wood was that hard I could not force the chisel in fast enough to give the motor any issues at all.
Now with the newer units and the bigger handles I guess that could be an issue but who in their right mind would pull the handle on one of these down fast enough to slow the motor down?
Doug
I have to agree about not being able to use universal accessories with it for the most part Doug. I don't have any machines that I am forced to use one bit.. blade.. type of sand-pater.. etc. and I am frankly keeping it that way.
You're right about the HP for the most part as the chisel does the tough part. But.. about once a year I build a work-bench that may have 1" x 3" mortises that are 4" through. The HP does come more into play when pushing a 1" + bit as I am capable of. It would not matter to most and you are then correct about the HP being a minor issue.
Regards...
Sarge..
With all that money you have, why are you complaining about having to spend more. I bet you know a whole lot more about the things than I do. I've seen pictures and I've read what some of you guys have posted. I just bring up the subject to give some extra considerations.
Actually Tink, I only know enough about them (much of what Doug M. stated in his post) to know I personally have no intention of paying that much for one. Just as the new Kapex miter gauge at 3 times what I paid for a 12" Hitachi that will do everything I ask it to do.
I suppose I just don't get it with all the hoop-la that has been spouted about them. They are excellent machines from what I've seen, but not worth to me the asking price with all the over-priced accessories that you can only get from them. I just don't care for the path you have to follow if you purchase one.
But.. something is worth what someone is willing to pay and obviously there are many that "are" willing to pay. I am just not one of them. :>)
BTW.. I was in no way pointing a finger at you for suggesting the you know what (I don't like to use the word)... as I mentioned to Brad.. I just like to point out they are not as perfect as some might taut them to be. Some promote them like the mom whose son could never be anything in her mind but a pillar of perfection. You get the drift.... :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
That is a good point. I was not saying the Festools are not good I was just making a joke about everything being only available from them. This is something that I personally have issues with. Anyone whom does not have an issue with that is welcome to them.
And as for trying to do very large mortices (sp?) if you only do a few of them a year you could either go very slowly or use a smaller bit and make more then one pass. So once again (as with most tools) it all depends on what the user is trying to do and what he can live with. If you can afford the money go with the biger more powerfull unit. If money is tight and you can live with makeing a few adjustments to how you work you can get around the power issue. For me it was a matter of getting features that I want (a good hold down and a unit that does not flex with a nice comfortable handle) and not so much about the power. But then i was spending a good amount of money on the item and could afford the unit I wanted. (Nice thing about rebuilding after a fire, you can buy tools a secound time, and after having used versions of them for a while so you have a good idea what you area looking for)
Doug M
I used a Shopfox for years and it preformed well. I did have to throw a quick clamp on and release after every plunge, but that was not a major issue considering I am not commercial. I always wanted a PM floor mortiser but could not justify the price even though I use M&T's very often. Several weeks ago I cut over 35 on a double chest as I do front and rear face frames using them.
I searched CL for two years hoping for a used PM.. but apparently there are not that many out there and once someone has one they will likely keep it. So.. I gave up until I got a call from Curt Wilke one day. He was closing out Bridgewood and York-craft and had both a stand floor model Bridgewood and one Industrial left.
Someone had won it on bid was hesitant to pay. He offered me the standard for $600 or the Industrial for $800. I told him to put the Industrial on the truck that day. It is the same as the Grizzly Industrial that sells for $2195. At one time they were priced at over $3000. The BW has a 1 HP single phase 220 V motor and the Griz has a 2 HP 3 phase. Other than that (1 HP is sufficient to back your statements on power not being that critical) they are identical. You can do 12" thick.. 12" wide stock up to 4" deep.
If not for that... I would still have the SF I sold to Bob of Kidderville. I used to cut the work-bench mortises by hand. But at the price which is about the max I would have paid for a used if I could have found one... a new Industrial sits in my shop. I called a friend that has a custom door shop here and he offered me $1000 thinking it was used.
So.. an investment on top of it gets mortises done quick. And I love the clamp.. 2 seconds to spin the wheel and the stock has absolutely no chance of moving. I had to put a piece of 1/2" rubber on the face to avoid crushing stock. :>)
As you know as we both post on another forum.. whenever someone ask one of those XXX vs XXX questions... several will post without regard to the original question.... Get a "you know what machine". There seems to be a cult that has been brain-washed to think and promote that you cannot start or finish a project without having that brand in your hand.
I have to grit my teeth and head to the shop as those same posters seem to never post any finished projects. Not having brand X has never stopped my from doing a project in 37 years and I doubt there will ever be a day it does in the future. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Regards
Did you read in one of the mags this month the confessions of a tool reviewer? He pointed out that so many times the tools are all but the same and it is only the personal opinion stuff of how it feels that sets them apart. It was an interesting bit.
I have alwas said that what you like I may hate. My dad LOVES his maketta (sp?) palm sander and I will use it but I do NOT like it. It just does not fit my hand very well.
Doug
Interesting Doug, what mag did the article appear or if you had rather not say to the general public.. e-mail me as I would like to read it and am certainly curious as to who the reviewer is. I am not overly impressed with reviewers after the article was published on "Steel City BS has Major Flaws". What a joke that was on how the review was conducted.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I forget what mag it was in but it was a general publication available at the local B&N book store. (not a Taunton) I picked it up for something to read. I think it only came out this week or maybe last week as I did not see it last Saterday at the local Boarders book store.
I will look it up when I get home this evening and let you know. It is no skin off my back about what mag it is. It was interesting to read, not sure I agree with it completely but it was interesting getting a so called pros view on reviews. I have often disagreed with reviews and I tend to think that the guy was correct in that a LOT of tools it is mostly personal opinion that differs one to the other. And frankly almost any of the tools we (hobby types) us will do about 90% of what we are looking for. It is just a matter of getting the best you can for the money you have available.
Doug
That last line about getting the best you can with what you have available pretty much sums it up, Doug. I started building pieces in 1972 with a used Shopmate circular saw hung under a piece of 2 x 4 ply. A piece of L aluminum and two C clamps for the fence.
The lack or quality of was never a factor in getting a piece finished as I always found a way. So... maybe the tool is not as important as the desire and development of skill on the part of the person that guides the tool... just maybe? ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge/Doug:
I think the other thing reviewers keep in mind is advertising fees. Did you catch Norms show where he discussed purchasing a table saw? Nothing but Delta's showed up, hmm, wonder why? Honestly, I cannot blame them they are running a business, but it does make it hard to get a true read on a machine before purchasing.
Brad
I did not catch Norms show but from what I heard it was a show about what a tool is/does and what to look for in it not really a review. So I do not have an issue with him using only Delta they do sponser his show. I would expect that a Nascar driver would use his sponcers product in something public like this also.
On the other hand a true "review" should be non partial. I know that could be hard to do but that is what it should be. If the mag can not do this (and I can understand why they may not want to) then they should avoid the whole "review" bit and just do a "Tool Company X is now selling Tool Y for Z dollars and it has these following features" and stay away from the plus and minus and this is better then that.
As for the article the guy that wrote it basicly pointed out that for the most part it can be very hard to decide one from the next, and that a lot of times the tools are all but the same tool with different paint on it.
Heck even mags with out advertisement have issues sometimes. Go back into the 80s and look up Consumers reports review of the Feiro and the Vette. They listed them for two years in a row as both having Outer Body rust issues. Pretty good for on car made of Fiberglass and another made of plastic. So you will alwas have to be carefull reading reviews.
Doug
I pretty much do my own reviewing, Brad. I am in Atlanta where we have dealers for about everything with the exception of Grizzly.. Laguna.. MM and a few other exotics that keep everything under one roof. But.. I will be at the International Woodworking Show in August for all days thanks to the courtesy of Steel City Toolworks.
And check them out side by side I will and have been doing every two years for awhile now. I see a spade as a spade and will call it a spade as I don't work or rely on any form of assistance in any form from any company.
But.. you are right about having to be careful of the hoop-la as some of it is nothing more than clever wording with some key words left out either intentionally or not knowing any better. That's why it is better to compare side by side if you are in a position to do so as many aren't.
Good luck with choices after you sniff through the garbage looking for anything keep-able. :>)
Sarge..
I am in Atlanta where we have dealers for about everything with the exception of Grizzly.. Laguna.. MM and a few other exotics that keep everything under one roof.
Sarge,
My brother tells me that the high cost of shipping has all but put Redmond & Sons out of business. He said they have relocated to a bldg about 1/4 of the size of the original. Have you been by there recently?
Lee
I haven't since they moved, Lee. If you Google Redmond and Son Machinery it will take you to their web-site. The picture of the building looks enormous but... it may be a large building that they share with other businesses. Milwaukee.. Dewalt.. and several other brands have their service centers in the same industrial park and are almost next door to each other.
So... that could be true. I tried to call this morning (Sat.) and they are not open on Saturday mornings anymore. I will call Monday to find out the square footage as I was not aware that it was smaller. I did hear that Scotty Redman lives close to where the new location is.
But.. even if 1/4 the size.. it would probably still be the largest show-room in Atlanta. And I doubt not that transportation charges could cause belt tightening for most businesses. Scott Box from Steel City Toolworks just opened a new facility on the West Coast to keep from shipping to TN. and then back to the West Coast. For that matter there will be many independent truckers that will not survive very long. Frankly almost everything is affected by transportation charges one way or the other and the effect will trickle down over time.
Get back to you with a better answer on Monday as I have an insider there...
Regards...
Sarge..
"For that matter, there will be many independent truck drivers will not survive very long"
I know one that didn't. My son quit the long haul some six weeks ago. More expenses than income and he found out you can't eat deficit. Things have got to change and inflation won't make up the difference.
Along another note. Didn't Redmond take on a Rockler business to combine with their own?
Edited 7/20/2008 7:39 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 7/23/2008 10:24 pm ET by Tinkerer3
I am aware of several local independents that simply just hung up their steering wheels, Tink. The price of tires on those things is enormous but with the added cost of diesel at around $4.50 it will most likely drive most of them out sooner or latter. The wife and I limit trips around town even and I won't mention the rising price of groceries.
Simply put.. any politician that tells you the economy is not that bad doesn't fill his own tank or go to the grocery store. They are out of touch with the reality of what is happening to those not making the over $100,000 they probably make. :>)
That's funny about the head stop. And I have done similar dumb things like that I can laugh about now but was pretty stupid at the time. I ran around 15 minutes looking for truck keys one morning several years ago until my wife pointed out they were in my left hand. ha.. ha.....
Opps.. edit to add: Yes.. Redmond took on Rockler almost two years ago at this point.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 7/21/2008 12:07 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
My wife has been adding more trips than ever. Just this spring she bought another time share. I finally told her that I just wasn't going on all of them and that she had better check with me before making any more reservation.
Thought difficult, I could probably cope with the higher personal transportation. The fact is that everything hauled in will eventually have more freight charges. Farmers, who rely on fuel, to a large extent, were already operating on a very marginal budget will have to be reimbursed more for their product. Truckers who haul the produce to my grocery stores, Manufacturers who rely on fuel of some sort to make their products. It is the general public that will have to flip the bill and it will lower our standard of living. I talked to an energy engineer the other day who said the price of fuel was going to come back down. I hope he is right.
Tink for short
Sorry to get back so late on the Remond thing, Lee. I called Monday and spoke with the secretary answering the phone. She did not know the exact sq. footage but said it was about 1/2 the size (maybe a little smaller) with the space used to store parts.. etc. which you don't see.
So... they have down-sized somewhat obviously. Maybe due to the economy as the building they had was pretty large at around 38,000 sq. ft. and even with all the schools.. cabinet shop business they do and the all the lines they carry.... that is pushing some large over-head.
I have gotten really busy over the past few days and simply just forgot to post back. Sorry for that...
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi Sarge,
No problem. I hope they will still be carrying the selection that they show in their catalog, but somehow I think that they have slimmed down in these lean times of high shipping.
Lee
Living fairly nearby, you probably get to the Redmond shop once in a while. I was there a couple years ago and bought a jointer. Anyway, I told them I would buy the jointer if they would throw in that huge PM wood lathe that stands by the entrance. No deal. They sure are hard to deal with. Ha, Ha.
Edited 7/24/2008 8:19 am ET by Tinkerer3
Now.. that's what you call tight... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Gotta run to take my wife to a medical appointment.. have a good day
Sarge..
OhMY Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwd-there is PAINT on that gear and rack.....
(;)(;)Philip Marcou
Intentionally Phillip. I have a 750 HP engine sitting in the corner to be installed to race in the NASCAR Daytona 500 this spring. You must have a fancy paint job to attract high dollar sponsors. As a matter of fact.. I need to clear the telephone line as I am expecting a call from one of the multi-billion dollar Oil companies begging to sponsor "The Big Green Machine" anytime. I'm thinking that Heidi Klume behind the wheel would look good.. real good! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good day in NZ and keep an eye out for Tsunami's. That salt water makes hand planes rust I hear. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
As I have said, I only know what you people have said. I have that PM mortiser that you dreamed of for years so I don't suppose I'll rush out and buy the domino any time soon. I can see, however, where some small item like that could could be a revolutionary development that would make an exorbitant price worthwhile for a woodworker. That is how the round wheel won out over the square one, you know. Mean while, back at the ranch, I'll have to trust you and some of the others to help guide me in my purchases. You missed your calling. You should be the chairman on the official "Tool Evaluation Board."
I agree you won't have to make any mortise machine decisions for the rest of your life, Tink. I didn't know you had a PM floor model. As far as tool evaluation.. I just go look at em and tell everyone what I see.
I have always said that if you compare side to side.. the machine will tell you which one is for you. So.. I do get some joy out of stating what I saw as many live in an area that the comparison cannot be made.
Regards...
Sarge..
Actually, I got the machine from Tool Crib. It came without the base. I think it was one of the last few available without the base. When, I got it, I installed a bit and tried it out. It wouldn't cut worth a darn. I thought I would bend the handle till I looked a little closer and realized the head was against the stop. I wasn't going to admit that.
I bought an old Crescent mortiser which had been tuned. great machine. The hold downs really work. It has a foot lever to push the chisel into the wood. That allos me to free move the wood piece.
There is a central vise which holds the wood. It has ways to go left/rignt or front to back. Cutting a long mortise is easy.
kThe disadvantage it weight half a ton and takes up a 3 x 5 floor space.
I bought a ShopFox because of the price and p.r. Got what I paid for in both machine and customer service (none). It screamed like a banshee.
Sarge and I even talked about it here. Said his didn't make noise. Til he had his wife come listen and then told me his hearing wasn't what it used to be. As I recall, his wife instantly winced and covered her ears. He just wasn't hearing it.
I sold the ShopFox (letting the buyer know it screamed) and bought a Powermatic. Benchtop. Quiet, smooth, and the hold-downs work on it. Now, I may not be doing as large or challenging mortises as Sarge, Mike and others do, but I love the Powermatic. Got what I paid for. Cost more, but it performs great.
Alan - planesaw
Been watching this post off and on....
I will not get into what is a 'Quality. Mortising machine. I have a 'L-Cheepo' Big-Box brand that I have had ALONG time! Less that perfect. However, it worked. At least the quill was true.
Actually the only real problem I had with it was having to use so much pressure cutting some woods and the bits burning.
Probably I should have not commented because I cannot find the 'writeup' now.
Someplace in FineWoodworking there was a PDF on care and sharpening the mortising 'bits' that stressed polishing the drill flutes.
All I can say is it made ALL the difference in the world. As I recall I bought some Jet bits which were way better than the original one but far for useable. Pine maybe?.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011185056.pdf
Not sure if it is available to all.. This is not the exact one but close to what I remember reading.
One thing I found that made a day and night difference was polishing the flutes!
Not all the way up but to at least the the depth I usually make the 'holes'.
NO... NOT a 'glass like' finish.. Just polished the best I could with a Demeral tool stone.
Fin...
Can you provide some more detail on the demeral tool stone, please!
When I google that everything comes up kidney stones and demerol.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
I'd bet he meant Dremel.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Unless they've changed their design recently, Shop Fox lags far behind in features compared to the Steel City and the Powermatic machines (PM's 701 model). Steel City has a much bigger table, and roller hold-ins to facilitate easy moving of stock while keeping it against the fence, plus extendable stock supports built in. Powermatic lacks the extendable supports, but has tooless this 'n that, a bigger motor and a honing cone built in. Shop Fox was on top of my list until I went to lay hands on the machines. Steel City stole the show (this was before the new Powermatic came out)
Powermatic info
Steel City info
I can't remember when I last used "Knots" but I just bought a Jet mortising machine and wish I would have done some research before buying it. It has plenty of power and its drills and chisels work well but I'm disappointed with the process of setting it up for a job. I would think that the mortising machines would come with the needed rulers and guides so that set up would be easy. The Jet set up is one of trial and error.
You need to mark the depth and distance from the fence by trial and error. Do any machines come with gauges or other devices for setting up? I've also found that the base is way to small and the fence should have some kind of geared or screw arrangement for setting it in place, rather that moving it by hand.
When using my drill press with a mortising attachment, it's also a trial and error process, and, when using the bit and chisel, I'd swear the handle is going to bend or break from the force needed.
With both the drill press and the Jet, I've decided it's easier to first drill the holes and then add the chisel to cut the mortises.
It's good to be back on line with people who enjoy woodworking
donshop
don,
Good to see you. Noticed that several of the old time frequent fliers are visiting Knots again.
I've got the ShopFox 1571 - bought it from Sarge a while back. It's being pressed into service soon for a QA piece I'm making so this will be my first real use of the machine.
I see what you mean about the lack of jigs for HCM machines. Mebbe we can come up with some to share with everyone else. I'm searching here and on the WEB so if I find anything I'll post here in Knots.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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