I am looking at buying a good bench plane. Visiting my local woodcraft, they have a nice selection of number 4’s.
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The Groz, is the least expensive and they tell me the best selling feature is its wood handles. Doesn’t sound like a great way to pick a plane. Next is a <!—-><!—-><!—->Stanley <!—-><!—-> that looks well made although it has plastic handles (but they are nice plastic). I also found a Stanly at a look junk tool store for about 20 bucks that looks like junk. Obviously, there is a big deference between the two <!—-><!—->Stanley<!—-> <!—->’s. The salesman at woodcraft told me the Stanly was a well-made tool but I should get some machinist bluing and flatten the bottom. I have never flattened a plane and I would be concerned about getting it right. I understand procedure of flattening the bottom but I am not sure how square the sides would be to the sole when I was done. I could end up with a nice parallelogram.
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Then we get to the Lie Nelsons. The number 4 is brass and the number 4 and ½ is steel. Both look great and reading up on them, Lie Nelson says the planes are both flat and square out of the box. I have the Lie Nelson rabbit block plane and it much nicer that my <!—-> <!—->Stanley<!—-><!—-> low angel block plane.
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I am leaning toward one of the Lie Nelsons. I am not sure I am experienced enough to tell the difference between using the high end <!—-> <!—->Stanley<!—-><!—-> and the Lie Nelson. Having it ready to go out of the box would be a big plus, but so would a couple hundred extra bucks in my pocket.
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I have several questions. How do you measure the bottom of a plane to see if it needs flattening before starting to mess with it? I could use an engineering square for the short side but I don’t one long enough to measure front to back. If the <!—-><!—->Stanley <!—-><!—-> is tuned up correctly does it work as well as a Lie Nelson? If I antae up for the Lie Nelson would the brass or steel be better? How well does the brass hold up over time? Sense the brass is softer would it get nicked up easier? If I go with the upper end <!—-> <!—->Stanley<!—-><!—-> would upgrading to a Hock iron be a good idea or would you wait until you needed to replace the blade before upgrading? Is there another manufacture I should be considering? The Veritas looks like it is priced between the high end Stanly and Lie Nelson but don’t have a local dealer where I could look at them.
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Thanks for your thoughts and experience on this.
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Bob T.
Replies
If you want to try things out before dropping big bucks on a LN, buy an OLD Stanely (before WWII at least) froma used tool dealer or eBay. Then buy a LN Stanley replacement blade for it. For an investment of far less than $100, you will have a very good smoother that will provide excellent results in 95% of all circumstances (super figured exotics might be better scraped or planed with a high angle smoother).
Both the Lie-Nielsens and the Veritas planes will work out of the box, and even with tuning (flattening the bottom, matching the chipbreaker to the blade, etc...) a modern Stanley will not work as well. The brief reason is that the Stanley is very cheaply made, has a relatively thin iron, a crappy chipbreaker, and the fit/finish of the frog will be questionable at best.
If you're new to hand planes, my strong suggestion is to pony up the extra dough for a L-N or a Veritas and save yourself the frustration of plane tuning and work on learning how to use a hand plane. Both the L-N and Veritas have soles that are flat and true, far thicker irons than either modern or antique Stanleys, and a superior fit/finish to the machining. The only thing you will have to do to either the LN or Veritas will be to flatten the back of the blade, hone the bevel, and start making shavings.
The LN isn't made of brass - it's made of bronze, and a very hard bronze at that. You'll have to work at it to wear the sole appreciably to the point where you need to flatten it again.
Generally, you'll have trouble measuring the required flatness of a plane sole, which must be flat within a couple of thousandths of an inch or better over the length of the sole. You can do it with a granite surface plate and feeler guages, but generally most of us go the route of coloring the sole with a magic marker or machinist's layout fluid and lapping it on sandpaper attached to a known flat surface. When the coloring is removed evenly over the entire area of the sole, you're within a few tenths of thousandths of flat (at least if your surface that the sandpaper is on is that flat, which a granite surface plate is). You don't need to do this to a L-N or Veritas, but you will on an antique Stanley or any of the modern, cheaply-made bench planes like Groz, Anant, and Stanley.
I know that the Veritas blades are lapped, and I believe the LNs come lapped as well.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Don't be intimidated by alot of the hype that surrounds planing. It's not rocket science. Mass produced planes made after the late-30's tend to be made from poor material, and poor workmanship, fit and finish. That includes Stanley, Groz, Anant, and even some Record. The boutique stuff - LN and LV, Clifton, Bridge City, is all very nice and a pleasure to use - but much more expensive.
A little cleaning is not difficult, and absent some dropped damaged plane, flatness of the sole for an antique Stanley in the 4 size range is not going to be much of an issue. If you want to check it/clean it, tape a piece of fine sandpaper to your table saw's iron table and after retracting the blade, rub the plane back and forth. The scrath pattern of new metal will tell you the story. If the toe, heel, and front of the mouth are all scratched, low spots in other places are irrelevant.
80 grit right? kidding of courseChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
Bob,
I started out on the road your looking at about 5 years ago. It's been a lot of fun but often times confusing. About 6 months ago I realized I'm a visual learner, not exclusively but it sure makes thing easier.
David Charlesworth's DVD's on the subject of hand planes will totally empower you no matter which way you go...if your a visual learner.
Which plane you choose will depend on lots of variables, and there's no "right" answer. I have several bench planes, ranging from an old-ish Stanley and a flea market Crafstman, to old wooden planes, to some wooden planes that were new when I bought 'em about 30 yrs ago, to the L-N 4-1/2. None of them gather much dust, since I use 'em all in different circumstances. So, as long as it's not a total dog, you'll get a lot of use out of whatever one you pick, and you'll always have room in the barn for more later.
For example, I have a wooden Ulmia smoother sitting beside the L-N. I wouldn't say either is better than the other -- I use the lighter wooden plane when the grain is nice (much less work than the iron monster) and the L-N when the grain isn't so nice (more weight to blow through the sticky spots). Each works well in different circumstances. I kind of like using the wooden planes -- I enjoy tweaking the setup with a mallet instead of a threaded adjuster -- especially if I have an audience when I'm working. Impresses the crowd and makes me feel like an old-time "Master". ;-)
FWIW, the 4-1/2 is primarily a smoother. It has a tight mouth and is best used to clean up after another plane does the grunt work. It's a great tool, but you might want to consider a #5 jack for more all-around usefulness. (Unless, of course, your primary use will be smoothing work.)
If you decide to go for a tool that needs some flattening, I wouldn't worry too much about getting it out of square -- you'd have a tough time removing enough metal from the bottom to put things out of whack. As for telling if a bottom is not flat, one swipe over some sandpaper on flat glass will reveal that in the scratch pattern -- there won't be any on the low spots.
Oh, and the L-N #4 is not brass -- it's bronze, which is a lot harder than brass. They use it because it's heavier than cast iron (8 extra ounces for this tool) -- gives the plane a little extra "umph" in use. (Also adds to the sweat quotient when using them.) FWIW, the plane is also available in iron if you prefer.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Bob,
If it were me and money wasn't the gating item I would buy either the LV or the LN so you can get a really good understanding of what a plane is supposed to be.
Then later on when you find a Stanley that's in fairly good shape, buy that and do what you have to do to get it somewhere near the other one.
This will do a lot for you in your journey down the slippery slope. Without something to compare to it is difficult to know when your fettling has reaped rewards.
Just my 2¢,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
A #4 is used primarily for smoothing. The only reason you would need the wings to be ground square is for shooting. The 45-degree cutting angle of the #4 would not make it the first choice for shooting end grain, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting them square. Heck, you could even leave the wings as they come.
The biggest difference between the Stanleys and the Veritas/LNs is the attention to detail. Like you mention, the latter two are ready to go right out of the box. I believe that a Stanley can be tuned to work as well as any plane. However, you must be willing to spend some time. The first difference you will notice is the texture of the sole. The Stanleys feel like almost like a mill file whereas the other two are glass-like. You'll want to replace the blade PDQ. If you wait until you wear out the blade, you're likely looking at decades unless you frequently plane metal-infested wood and grind out the nicks.
If you don't have a straight edge, you can either buy one, or make do. Your jointer bed will likely work as will most other machined surfaces in your shop. The jointer bed is machined to tolerances, however and is thusly the best choice.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Bob, IMO there are three great, middle high end, out-of-the-box-ready planes: Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and Clifton. By that, I mean they have basically flat soles and just need some blade honing. There are even more superior planes, however they take a massive jump in price.
Denny
Thanks for the replies. I think this indeed could be a bit of a slippery slop because after reading your replies as well as other threads it looks like one is never enough. I primarily use planes for cleaning up and making small adjustments after using power tools. So a smother seems like the right plane to start with but now I will have to start looking at others also. I did look at eBay there were over 1400 hits searching for wood working planes. Most of them are listed as vintage. How would you tell if it is pre 30’s or a 70’s plane? Both could be described as vintage. Saw a 1910 Bailey that looked interesting. I am not sure if it would be a good plane use but kind of cool anyway.
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Ill stop by Woodcraft on my way home tonight and check out David Charlesworth's DVD. Sounds like it may be helpful. I also like the suggestion of starting with a good new plane to learn how one should work then perhaps look for some older one to “tune up” and use. I am leaning toward the LN 4 ½ because the wider blade and if decide I don’t like it looks like it is easy to sell a LN.
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Thanks,
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Bob T.
I have a Groz block plane and No. 4 smoother. The blade on the block plane is junk. It gets more dings that a car in a Walmart parking lot.
The smoother seems to have a decent blade. I also have a LN medium shoulder plane and it works like a charm. Some day I wil buy more LN planes, but the cost is prohibitive right now.
"I primarily use planes for cleaning up and making small adjustments after using power tools."
Depending on what you mean by that, a shoulder plane may be what you're looking for.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
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