Just picked up a 4’X 8″ piece of phenolic ply (eleven ply $54 at Whitecap online and picked up here in town)) after reading a recent article about it in some magazine. I plan on building an outfeed table with storage below and will, of course, use the ply for the top.
Any advice? I hear it can be very sharp after cutting and to round over or at least ease the edges but that’s the only negative thing I’ve heard besides you can’t snap a line on it cause the powder just blows away. Not a concern for me and just encouraging really.
Any interesting jigs built with it or other uses?
Thanks, Brian
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Replies
hi brian,
i have used phenolic, and must say i really like it. didn't know whitecap sold it until i read the article (and you've confirmed it). i got mine at woodcraft, but it's a bit pricey there. as you've heard, when cut smoothly (like with a sharp blade) the phenolic resin leaves a very sharp edge. also, it's very prone to chip-out. i use a zero clearance insert for that reason. if you end up flush-trimming it, use a spiral bit or the edge will come out quite fragmented.
up to now, i've only used it for jigs. one in particular that i'm very happy with is a straight-line sled which i made for my unisaw. its purpose is to mimic a sliding table. now that i've sold my unisaw to buy a felder, i'm not sure how i'll put the sled to use. maybe as a smaller sliding table for the shaper...
i also used a half-sheet as an assembly table (put on top of my saw) -- until i cut it up to make the sled. glue doesn't stick to it which is nice. my wife wants a craft table, and i've been thinking of using it for the worktop. the resin laminates seem to be a little heavier than a melamine laminate, so i think it should hold up well.
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Up spiral or down spiral?
Thanks for your insight.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Down.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Thought that. Thanks.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
You are welcome. Now, all I have to do is find a local source for the stuff. I can see it now..I will wake up at 4AM thinking of the jigs, tops and other stuff I have to make. The whole shop needs to be redone..Time to go and have a glass of wine and calm down :-)Cheers,Peteredit: I just got the magazine today (to explain my hysteria)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 4/15/2008 10:18 pm by PeterDurand
At least you are in a large city! I'm stuck (and I love it) in a very rural area or north central Arkansas. Very few places to buy special "stuff" within several hundred miles.
Oh well, must just make another trip to Memphis, Dallas, etc. It's not the cost of my stuff, it is the cost of mall shopping by you know who. Gotta love it!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
hi 81treehouse,
someone else beat me to the punch. i've had better luck with downspiral in a hand-held router, and up-sprial in a router table. in the table, i've got a "near zero-clearance" insert which is just slightly larger than the bit, and that provides the backer-board function for the up-spiral bit.
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Thanks for the input. If I can locate some phenolic plywood, I will probably buy it and try making a few jigs. Since I use both a router table and a handheld at times, I appreciate the information. I have both up and down bits.
Out of curiosity, what speed do you run the router with this material?
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
hi tree,
i have solid carbide whiteside up/down bits, and tend to run the router slower than some people, but also feed the material slowly. i set it by feel, so, it's probably 12-15k rpm. i think the best thing to do is take a scrap piece and test your rpm+feed speed until you get a nice edge.
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I have heard of using melamine many times and wonder if it is the same stuff I used to use. I was very unimpressed with it. It is 1/8 in. masonite with a thin coating of plastic about the thickness of heavy paint. Doesn't take much for the coating to come off and then all you have is the masonite. Is this the stuff you guys use?
Hello, The piece I brought home isn't as impressive as I had thought it would be. The phenolic layer looks much thinner then the 16th to 1/8" I thought it would be and the edges have a chalky material on them, but I don't think there is any kind of layer under it besides the 11 ply . I haven't even taken it out of the truck bed yet.
Soon as make a cut I will post something.
Brian
PS..Got it online at White Cap but sure wasn't impressed with the local outlet where I picked it up. They usually deal with contractors and seemed snooty to this "weekend warrior" type.
Don't confuse phenolic plywwod with melamine. Huge difference. Melamine is typically found on particle board. Phenolic is used in the concrete industry for forms and is very stable and flat and can be reused many times in extreme wet conditions. Much slicker surface than melamine. Routers glide over the surface.
My RAS table was pretty well cut up (after 40 years of loyal service). Woodpeckers had a special a few months ago. The pic is of the installation.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I wasn't confusing phenolic with melamine as phenolic is completely new to me. I am a little disoriented on the melamine though as the melamine I used to know was just masonite with a thin coating of plastic on it -- nothing substantial at all. DrChops says it is a plastic on particle board. That phenolic sounds interesting. I need an outfeed table for the saw and might well give it a try if I can find it. Would Lowes have it?
"Would Lowes have it?"
In your dreams.... The only chain I know of that carries it is Woodcraft.
-Steve
And Woodcraft phenolic is very pricey. You can, like I did, check out White Cap online. I was able to order it online ($54 for a 4' X 8') and pick it up here in Stockton. Don't know if they have a location near you of course but it was handy here and this isn't a big town.
Still haven't cut the piece yet, maybe this weekend so I can get an idea of what it's all about.
Brian
Lowes or HD would not have phenolic plywood. It's a specialty product for the concrete industry. I'm lucky to have discovered it some time ago and there is only one place near me that carries it. Only one saleman in the place even knew what I was talking about. I have a hard time finding plywood that stays flat for jigs and fixtures in our shop. This stuff is amazing and extremely slippery.
I suspect what you are used to is a plastic coated hardboard that comes in 1/8 and 1/4 inch thicknesses and is usually white. I use it for surfacing work table tops. When it gets in bad shape, I just cut a new piece and replace it. It is not impervious to oils or water so it stains easily or "puffs up" when wet. It is OK for work tops since glue pops off. Paint is a little more permanent. It is sold by HD or Lowe's type DYI stores and is very inexpensive. Melamine is a different animal. It is a plastic surface over a particle board. It is used in a lot of "assemble yourself" cabinets with quick connect/disconnect fasteners. Sometimes you see Norm use it on things like his recycling table/cabinet. It is also sold by the DIY stores as well as some lumber houses. It comes in a multitude of colors and finishes (smooth, rough, etc). It is not overly expensive and usually is 3/4" thick.
Phenolic plywood is a totally different animal of which I have no experience but am gonna try it if I can locate some near me in the boondocks. :-)
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
The manufacturer "Abitabi" actually called it "Melamine." That is the first time I had heard of the word. I don't figure it would make an exceptionally good work table surface. I would just as soon use 1/8 inch masonite. It was designed to look like marble. I don't know if it came in different colors or not. The stuff used to assemble cabinets does have a similarity. Maybe, they just don't make it anymore. It has been over thirty years since I have used it. I have used Formica and that works pretty good. I suppose I could pick up some phenolic plywood at Woodcraft if I ever find out just where the store is.
Edited 4/19/2008 8:40 pm ET by Tinkerer3
"Melamine" is in fact just a particular kind of plastic resin. It can be made into all sorts of things (like kitchen utensils, bowls, etc.), not just laminated onto wood (or wood-like) substrates. Your melamine-coated hardboard has an especially thin layer of melamine; the thickness of melamine on higher-quality cabinet-grade particleboard is greater, and the surface is pretty durable.
Formica, too, is made of melamine: layers of kraft paper saturated with melamine resin are laminated at high pressure and temperature. The melamine provides surface durability; the paper provides structural reinforcement.
-Steve
hi tinkerer3,
the stuff i've bought as "mealmine" is particle board (of various thickness, but usually 3/4") with a thin layer of plastic on both faces. i haven't had problems with the platic coming off so much as delaminating. and then there are the issues of dealing with particle board. recently, i've also started seeing plastic laminated MDF at the local sheet goods supplier. that was what i used for jigs until i found phenolic (multi)ply. i like dealing with the ply much, much, better, and the phenolic seems more durable than the plastic laminate.
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Hi Bert, Thanks for the reply. I haven't had a chance to even get the one sheet I bought out of the truck yet. The phenolic layer looks much thinner then I had anticipated but I have heard practically nothing but good stuff about it so far.
Will post something when I get a chance to start my outfeed table.
Brian
hi brian,
hmm... i wonder if it's the same stuff i have. hard to tell without a picture, i suppose. i'll see if i can scrounge up my camera later and post something.does the sheet you have seem strong enough to make a concrete form? that's what phenolic was really designed for. it's used a lot in construction. i first found out about it when we added a 3rd car space to our driveway pad. dug out the new area, lined the outside walls with phenolic, mixed and poured the concrete. when the concerete was dry, the phenloc popped right out -- no sticking to the concerete like doug fir does. at that point conversations with buddies turned to what else would likely not stick to phenolic... :-)by the way, i haven't used phenolic for jig parts where i want the workpiece to stay put. it's best for parts where you want sliding around. but, having said that, i find it's great stuff for crosscut sleds where you can grab hold of the workpiece and hold it in place. but, not so great for a bench-hook or shooting board.
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Hi Bert, Yep, same stuff. Supposed to be great for forms and such. I think it is going to come in handy for a lot of things including the outfeed table and I do need to build a new crosscut sled for the new TS. Not real happy with the service at WhiteCap where I got it locally but the price was good. $54 for a 4' X 8" sheet.
Thx for the reply,
Brian
I have never heard of it until the recent FWW mag article. Wish I had.. but at this point of jig and accesory table making, too little... too late. It sounds as if it could be the cat's meow as I laminated several tops (router table top for instance) and that is time comsuming.. exposes you to the glue fumes and not cheap when all is said and done.
Good luck with it...
Sarge..
Thought that article was FWW. Yes, it looks great. Will post something when I get the outfeed table done.
Thx Sarge
Brian
I read the article about "phenolic plywood" and responded to FWW with the following:
"I certainly agree that the the plywood discussed in the subject article is better than using standard plywood or Birch plywood, but I think you give it too much praise.
First let me say that, though the manufacturers and distributors of this product may refer to it as "Phenolic" plywood, it really has little similarities to "true" phenolic. Most traditional phenolic material is "the result of polymerization between resin and a base material that can be paper, glass or cotton" (Wikipedia) . Phenolic like Micarta¯ that is used in electrical and other applications where a tough, rigid, non-conductive, material is needed are made with multiple layers of paper or linen, each having been completely saturated with a phenolic resin (most often epoxy) and cured under temperature and pressure.
Judging by the very thin wear layer, the product being sold as "phenolic plywood" has at best a thin epoxy surface coating, with little to no penetration of the resin into the underlying plies. The surface is not as thick nor durable as the melamine available at home centers. If you need a better substrate than melamine covered particle board, and though it takes a bit longer to make, the hardest and most durable jig surfaces can be obtained by covering (birch) plywood with the thicker laminate used in counter tops (Formica¯, etc.). Very inexpensive, partial and damaged sheets of laminate can often be purchased at home centers. If you make a lot of jigs, an entire sheet 4' X 8' of counter laminate can be purchased for less than $50; that plus some Baltic birch ply is cheaper than the price of "phenolic ply."
Edited 4/17/2008 12:02 pm ET by aschaffter
Have to disagree with you on many counts. We probably go through 100 sheets a year for jig and fixturing. We used baltic birch, MDO and melamine and all the things you mentioned and more.
You can't beat the stability and price of the phenolic plywood. At $54 a sheet it's cheaper than all options and it does stay flat!!!!! Putting on laminate is not cost effective for us. Phenolic ply is. Considering we spend over $5000 a year just on jig plywood never mind the hardware. We also switched to insert pattern routing bits. Another one of the best things we ever did.
It's designed for being used more than once in concrete forms. That alone says a lot.
I have been using it for several years. It is what we use in construction for concrete formwork. You can reuse the sheets for 10 or 12 concrete pours so it is pretty tough stuff. I saw on a job site several years ago and thought it might be good in the shop. When I was able to buy it for less than other cabinet grade plywood, it became my wood of choice. I built all my cabinets in the shop with it and have 20 sheets in the floor now for the next project. Almost nothing sticks to it so forget trying to use glue or epoxy to make joints. That is also an advantage since clean up is just flaking the glue off the surface. If you can find a friend in construction and get them to buy it from a construction supply house it is very reasonably priced. They typically don’t sell to individuals or in small quantities.
To the best of my knowledge it only comes in 3/4" thickness.
I highly recommend it for use.
Bob
It is available in several thicknesses, 3/4 being the most common, as that is the size most concrete forming systems are designed to utilize. But, it is available in 1/2 up to at least 2-inch thicknesses, (the BIL who is a concrete contractor has it in 2-inch by 16 and 12-inch widths 12-feet long, for use in forming aircraft hangers.).
It is technically HDO plywood, and any good plywood supplier should be able to order it for you. But, concrete contractor supply companies are the best bet to have it in stock.
All of it I have seen has at least waterproof glue between the layers, and some of the higher cost/life materials I have seen online, have phenolic as the adhesive between the plys. The cost is triple that of the other HDO, but it has about four times the life. So it can make sense for a contractor.
It is HDO Plywood, and here in Phoenix we have a concrete supply house, Borders products and they stock it in 3/4". Only 7 ply, but very dense ply, no voids and very flat. Screwing it was my method. Cut some shallow dados in it to recieve the vertical cab partitions.
Price was 56 a sheet.
Here is link to some info about HDO/MDO
http://www.plumcreek.com/downloads/productInfo/MDO.pdf
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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HDO isn't the same as phenolic plywood.
Correct, but it has many of the same qualities as Phenolic, just a different fiber/paper ply that is hot fused to the ply. Since I have had difficulty in buying single sheets of Phenolic, I offer it as a substitute, with a tech manual to review. Having built a sander table with it this weekend and using a sheet as a glue table, I am impressed. AS a WORD of warning, it gives great paper cuts, just like Phenolic!
The material I bought is on a 7 ply US/Canada made B grade ply. No voids in the side but it is a softwood. Some Phenolic is built on that ply, some on Baltic Birch with 13 ply. Lots of variety out there, but both HDO and Phenolic were designed for the concrete business. Price is about the same for both here in Phoenix.
I also found a 1 1/8" 24"by8' HDO sheet, which could make a great router table, work bench.
AZMO
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Edited 4/28/2008 6:41 pm by AZMO
So, please explain in real terms what the difference is.
To the best of my knowledge there is no "phenolic" grade for ply wood. There is an APA standard for HDO, and the "High Density Overlay" is composed of heat setting phenolic resins. Admittedly, not all HDO has phenolic adhesives bonding the plys, but then neither does all "Phenolic" plywood.
We've been using the phenolic plywood for a while now. I have some HDO waithing for me with all the MSDS sheets so that should tell me the difference. They are priced around $54 a sheet. There is a higher grade Finnish phenolic availalbe but it's more expensive.
I am fortunate in having used phenolic 20x29x15/16ths thick panels for the past fifteen years or so. Most of my kitchen is made of the stuff including the countertops which are tiled over.
These panels are held by a general "wheeler dealer in wood", they started cheap but are a bit pricey now. Still using them though for anything and everything including jigs. The surface stands hot pans without complaint.
Interesting info on HDO. Though they say in the literature to store inside out of moisture and away from the sun, they don't mention that many phenolic products are not resistant and can break down under UV.How does the cost of a sheet of HDO compare to that of a sheet of prefinished 3/4" Birch or Maple cabinet ply?
The material I have was stored outside in the sun, and that is where I keep a sheet. I think any plastic/resin material stored in UV light will suffer and fail. Most of these products are used for concrete forms, and are reused many times over. So they are tough.
Cost here was 56 a sheet. Color was a cool yellow!
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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