I will be building a fence this fall in my backyard using treated southern pine. Despite my wife’s attempts to dampen my excitement, I still view this as a large woodworking project, and have opted to build something very unique and customized as opposed to buying the prefab fencing units down at the big box store.
My question is what rules change from an indoor project to an outdoor project? I know I need weather proof glues (if I use glue), but what sort of joinery is best? I fear that constant expansion and contraction would make M&T joinery useless, but somehow the thought of using metal fasteners bugs me.
If you’ve done an outdoor project and have any “heads up” advice you can give me, I would appreciate it.
If you care to read on, here are some specifics of the fence…
It will be a privacy fence, about 7′ – 8′ tall. The bottom 6′ or so will be made of standard 5/8″ treated pine fence planks seated in a 2×4 with a dado cut in the bottom, and a matching 2×4 across the top. The top 1′ – 2′ will be a run of 1×1 rails spaced about 6″ apart, again capped by a 2×4. Each section will be 8′ wide and have a standard treated 4×4 for a post on each end. Each 4×4 will be capped with some sort of fancy finial or cap.
I plan to stain the fence (before assembly) and top coat it with whatever weatherproof chemical the stain manufacturer recommends.
If you have any questions, please let me know.
Replies
Don't forget to use the right kind of fasteners. Solid brass/bronze. Check on the type of treated lumber you are using, some of the treatments eat nails and screws like mad. Make sure the posts are in the ground at least 18 inches below the frost line for your part of the country. Then have fun. The tops of my garden fence have big cedar turnings on them that were great fun to make. The wood is going to move and some of it is going to split so what ever you do, plan on being able to make repairs with as little pain as possible.
Freshly-treated SYP will shrink - a lot - as it dries out. "Freshly treated" means it feels damp and heavy in your hands. THis is what you will tend to find in the Borg for these popular items (pickets + posts) because they turn the inventory frequently. Don't know how long it will take to dry - depends on your climate - some number of months. So those fence pickets that fit together tightly likely won't be that way later on. If you are spacing the pickets, no problem. If you want a small gap between the pickets - even easier - butt them together in assembly, and let nature take its course. There is a PT product known as "KDAT", which means "kiln-dried after treating". The producer runs it through the kiln after the PT process. Dry, stable, $$$$, difficult to find.
Also - personally don't know of an adhesive that will work with freshly-treated wood - fasteners is the way to go IMO. Brass, etc would look great, but there are also deck screws that are cheaper, available for any type of treating chemical. Sounds like you might be planning to let the pickets "float" in the dadoes of the top + btm rails - that should work well, but recognize that the dado will relieve fibers + stress in the 2x4, and don't be surprised if you see some bowing/crowning/warping in those rails over time as it dries. Fasteners at each picket would help keep this in line.
Last - staining and finishing PT lumber is not a project so much as a way of life - you will be back at it every year or two, if you want to maintain that look. If the wood has not dried, you are also subject to moisture causing problems with the finish. Not sure of what you plan to use, but that moisture is gonna go somewhere, and that can lift/bubble finishes - paint is a nightmare, for example. One option would be to use PT posts and cedar pickets + rails - the cedar will be dry off the shelf, the pickets + rails have no ground contact, so they will last many years - this would be my suggestion if you want to stain + finish - seal that end grain, tho.
Me - I like the look of silvery-grey (aka - let it age, leave it alone, move on to something else). Just a personal preference, though.
No expert.. I would say whever you are..
NEVER... EVER.... use cement or the like... Crushed stone! Especially where the Freeze/Thaw cycles occur... 'SORT' of easy to replace a post that rotted anyway!
And, from the other side....
I always use concrete and PT posts. BUT (a) you gotta put 4" - 6" gravel in the hole first for drainage, and (b) the post has to go below the frost line.
I just dump a bag of premix in the hole, fill it with water, and poke a stick in there a bit to get the water into the mix, and come back a couple days later to pull the braces,
Second the motion about the drainage and frost line!Drainage is always good!
jammer and those who speak of "the frost line",living in LA, i don't know from frost lines. what can go wrong if the cement is not below it?
today we topped out at 90+ degrees. i have seen, once in a great while, a bit of white powdery frost after a cold winter night, but nothing that lasts past 9 or 10 in the morning.
just curious.
eef
When water freezes, it expands. It wouldn't affect the concrete, (assuming that the top was "finished" sufficiently that water would roll off it) but the earth around it would move, and could work the post loose.To my mind, it would be a lot more important with loose fill than with concrete, concrete just needs a stable base below the frost line.
Frost line is the level in the ground that a frost/freeze will reach. In areas that get winter freezes, a fence post (or any post) that is not at least 18 inches below that line runs the risk of being 'heaved' by the winter weather. And I do mean heaved, not just a little movement. You can tell the next spring who got lazy when digging fence posts when all the fence posts are at 20 or 30 degree angles and a good 6 inches to a foot higher than they were put in at the year before. Not a pretty sight. 18 inches below the freeze line is enough to hold the post in and prevent the heave. Here in the mid-Atlantic the freeze line is at about a foot, in New England or the Mountain West it is going to be lower. Good local builders will know that level is in your area -- maybe 1 or 2 inches in LA so it may not be something you need to deal with.DanC
jammer and dan,most of the national forest, a stones throw from where i work and live, burned away this summer. the santa ana winds have been blowing the ash and dust into the air and there are still yet more fires to the north of me. this winter it will rain and we will experience land slides and floods. toss in the sometimes earthquake and-voila! life in southern calif.
i guess i could've gone my whole life and not known the ups and downs of heaving frost lines...
thanks for the info.
eef
marti038
Never built a complete fence, but repaired some and looked over many. As far as joinery, consider that a fence is not like a piece of furniture, and mainly needs to be designed to hold itself up and resist stress of wind and snow. Tight, strong glued furniture joints, made to resist weight, racking, etc., are overkill and subject to failure from the large stresses of temperature, rain, etc. Nails and screws may not satisfy your FWW urges, but they do allow more flexibility and ease of repair than glued M/T or other more complicated joinery. I'd go with lap joints and screws myself.
I don't know if you use them in your part of the world, but I see a lot of damage from string-trimmers on the bottom of fences and posts. When I replace my fence, I want to incorporate some kind of protection against that.
Joinery? 3in ring shank stainless round head nails for rail to post connections, ring shank stainless siding nails for the pickets. I have a Bostich F21PL for the big nails and a Bostitch N66C for the siding nails. FWIW, I spent more on the nails for my fence than I did on the guns. ;)
If I read you right, you intend to use those thin fence pickets with just a top rail and bottom rail. Some will bow one way, and some will bow the other and you'll get this: () -- a big gap. You need a rail in the middle to control this. The rail could be just a simple 1x3 nailed to the pickets at somewhere around the halfway mark (60/40 ?). On the side that faces the neighbor.
Are the panels going to be inset between the posts, or overlaid? If inset then augering all of the post holes all at once can be challenging, especially if you're on any slope and you plan to stair step the panels. In my experience, better to do them one at a time.
That dadoed rail on the bottom. How's that dado going to drain? Also, I'm wondering if those 1x1 rails that you mentioned are going to turn into curly fries. That wet PT likes to turn into a banana as soon as it starts to dry.
Build a prototype section or two. You might find that a 6' span between posts or a lower height is more aesthetically pleasing. It'll also give you a chance to work out the construction before you commit to a bill of materials.
DocOtter,
That's a good point about drainage, that even though I had considred it, I haven't exactly thought up a solution. I'm all ears for any suggestions. Maybe a 1/4 round (not sure if it's available in PT SYP) with wheep holes/slots cut every so often?
The upright rails above the privacy part of the fence are 2x2. I mis-spoke when I referred to them as 1x1 (that really would move).
Thank you all for your comments. They have been most helpful. I'll be sure to post some pics when all is said and done. Hopefully, some time sooner than later.
I made this post about fifteen years ago, in answer to a very similar post on what was then a newsgroup, from a guy who was considering buying pre-fab panels at Home Depot.
I built fence by the mile when I was (much) younger, in a dozen different versions. I wrote this post about a simple fence on a flat lot.
Just substitute "Southern Yellow Pine" for "Hemfir", and you'll be fine. Don't worry about the concrete-- digging fence posts up in concrete is no more difficult than any other way, and concrete will anchor them far more securely. It's a pain either way. Anchor them in concrete, and they'll be someone else's problem, though. :)
Have fun!
-----
It's not difficult, and if you're careful and patient, just about anyone can build a good-looking fence. It's hard work, a lot of it will be brute labor using the methods I'll describe, but this is the simplest way. There are faster ways, but it sounds like you're not a professional, and this method should get your fence up. I wouldn't use the panels; I would build everything in place. It sounds like your lot is pretty flat, and that's going to help.
Start by driving two stakes, and stretch a string line tight between them. Run the string line about 10 feet past the ends of the fence. If stakes won't hold, then drive two stakes at each end, and nail a 2x4 between them. This arrangement doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to hold the line where the center of the fence is going. Alternatively, you can place the line exactly 1' one way or the other, and measure out from it with a tape. You can go 1', 2', 4', or 10', whatever is convenient.
Measure off 6 or 8 foot increments down the line, and plant a nail at each increment. Take the string line down.
Use a post hole digger to dig a reasonably (doesn't have to be exact) straight hole between 24 and 36 inches deep, depending on your soil. The hole wants to be deep enough that at least two feet of the post will be underground.
Calculate the amount of concrete you need, using the volume of a cylinder the diameter and depth of the holes you dug. Calculate in fractions of feet, rather than inches to calculate cubic feet. Divide the result by 27, and now your answer is in cubic yards, which is the unit that concrete is purchased in.
Set the string line back up, either where the edge of the posts will go, or an easy dimension off that point.
Now comes some brutal, hard on the back, stoop labor.
There are two ways to do it, and I leave it to you to decide which best suits your needs.
You can order the concrete in a truck, and chute it into a wheelbarrow, and run the wheelbarrow out to the holes, or you can hump sacks of premixed concrete out to the holes and mix the concrete yourself. Either method will get the job done. The truck is faster, but it requires more organization. With premix, the mixing can be done at whatever pace you decide you like: you can fill one hole a day for a month, or whatever.
If you decide to go with a truck, make sure you order more concrete than you think you'll need. Even then, be prepared to leave some holes out at the end, and pour them another day. Holes without forms suck down the concrete, in a grand and hardy fashion. This can be corrected by adding forms for the footings we're pouring, but that also adds a whole additional layer of complexity, and for a simple fence, I'd be tempted to let it go and buy the extra concrete.
If you decide to mix your own, the easy way takes two people. Take a 5 gallon bucket, and put some water in the bottom. Very soon, experience will tell you how much you need. Rent a 1/2" drill (if you don't already have one), and either rent or buy a paddle, the big kind, the kind that drywallers use to stir their mud. Chuck the paddle into the drill, stick the paddle into the water, and turn it on. Then the other person picks up a bag of the premix, and slowly starts to pour it into the water. Keep pouring and mixing until it's a little stiffer than good pancake batter, then dump it in the hole, and repeat.
Go back to the first hole you poured, and stuff one end of a 4x4 down into the concrete, with its edge touching the string line.
Use 4x4x8 pressure treated hemfir #2. It's what we're going to use for all the lumber, except the fencing itself, which will be #2 cedar. Most places that sell lumber have the fencing you need, ready to go. Be sure to use ground contact lumber.
Doesn't matter if you pay extra to have a finish on the posts, just make sure all the posts are reasonably straight.
Drive a stake into the ground about 4 or 5 feet away from the post, perpendicular to the line of the fence. Drive another stake the same distance out, in line with the fence, or just off the line. Cut braces from1x4 pine (shop grade is fine, cheaper is better, the only future these braces have is as firewood) to reach just beyond the stakes. Nail one end of each brace to the stake with one nail. Now hold the other end of the brace up the post about 3 feet, and start a nail in the brace. Hold a level on the post in the same plane as the brace, and when the post is plumb that way, tack the brace with one 8d duplex nail. Another pair of hands is a really good thing during this operation. One person holds the level to the post, and reads it and holds the post plumb while the other person gets the brace nailed to it.
Then go to the other brace, and repeat this procedure so that the post is plumb and braced in both directions. Now you can add a couple 8d duplex nails to the braces if you want to, but it's not really necessary. When you drive the duplex nails through the brace into the stake, back up the stake with a sledgehammer, so it doesn't bounce all over the available acreage.
Now we have a nice, clean row of posts, all plumb, in a line as straight as a string drawn tight, spaced every 6 or 8 feet, up and down the line of the fence.
When you have all the posts set, take the rest of the day off.
Time to set rails.
We're going to set two rails between each post, a top and a bottom.
The posts are marching downhill, so we start at the top, and set the bottom rail about 6" above the ground at the base OF THE HIGH post.
We tack one end in place, or we have our apprentice hold it to the mark, and while holding the rail level, we mark it for length, and cut if nice and square. Young hotshots use a Skilsaw on their foot; men who are old and wise use a pair of sawhorses, get a lot more done, and arrive home after quitting time with enough energy left to make love.
We tack it in place, or we set it into a simpson tie, or whatever fastening system turns your personal crank. Then we go to the other end, start a nail, and set a level on the rail, and hold the rail level while we drive the nail. I've seen these rails run flat against the sides of the posts, and I've seen them butt into the post. Personally, I prefer butting them into the posts, flat to the world, and setting them in simpson ties.
We repeat this procedure on down the run, setting the bottom rails to about 6" off the ground at the high post. The rails will form a nice series of steps on down the lot. We remove the brace that's in line with the fence line as we go, although we try to get the rail set before we pull it out.
Now we go back, and measure up from the bottom of the bottom rail, a measurement of our desired fence height minus about 18 inches, and make a mark on the high post. We then set the top of the top rail to this mark, and level it across, just like the bottom rail, and fasten it to the low post.
We repeat on down the run of the post, and then we claim that we've finished our second day of work, and we retire to the kitchen, and root around for something to eat.
Returning the next morning, we find a splendid series of posts, all braced plumb, and connected by top and bottom rails.
Now we're going to install the fencing itself, and then go collect our glory.
Start at the top. Pick a height, 6 to 8 inches above the top of the top rail. Measure from the ground at the post up to that height, and cut a board (of the fencing) to that length minus an inch. Or so. Nail it with four nails, nice and plumb (yes, use the level each time), to the top and bottom rails. A rented nail gun here will REALLY pay for itself. Treat it like a gun (because it is one), and never point it at anyone, including yourself.
Keep your finger off the trigger, and don't touch the trigger unless you want to drive a nail.
Now it's going to go fast. Hold the next board up, sitting on the ground, and tight to the first board. Lift it up off the ground about an inch, and mark it on the edge where the top of the first board hits it. Lay it on the sawhorses, square the mark across, and cut it off. Nail that sucker to the rails, with a small gap (eyeball it, you'll get good at it) between the two boards, and the tops nice and level. Repeat, repeat, repeat. If you need to, by tacking the board to one of the sawhorses, with the edge hanging off the end of the sawhorse, you can rip the boards down to whatever width you need to finish each section.
The result should be a neat series of sections that step down the slope, with the tops of each sectors level, and the bottoms custom cut, board by board, to conform to the earth.
Puppies, ostriches, and emus will escape under sections that aren't custom cut this way.
Cats you can forget about, they're going to get out no matter what you do.
The final step is to retire to the house, where your wife/mate/lover will be waiting for you, and act nonchalant while receiving your justly-earned praise. Explain that it was a simple fence, and that while she may be impressed, you still have many, many cards she hasn't seen, and are capable of much more. Tell her that if you'd had more than three days, you could have done the whole place.
One other grooming tip FWIW -
The "standard 5/8" treated pine fence planks" that you find today - especially in the Borg - are predominantley from south america, and commonly called brazilian pine, tho you won't see this on the label.
I think Brazil started a forestry industry 50-60-70 years ago, with help of US expertise, and they used SYP seedlings from US. The difference is that it grows much faster in that climate, which is great re: renewable resources, etc. Also faster in the PT process, lower cost, etc. BUT - that faster growth means much wider growth rings, so it is less stable than domestic SYP, and in the "race to find the bottom" that the borgs run, they are - as you noted - 5/8" v. 3/4" Look at a PT pine fence picket, then wander over to the millwork aisle and look at a SYP 1x6. Difference in growth rings is obvious.
No issue with performance from longevity side - you just need to know its properties, and - my preference - 2 fasteners at each rail for a 1x4, and 3 for a 1x6.
Don't set the boards in a dado. In planning a fence think of how to shed water and not trap it. In short the tops of rails should not be flat. If water falls on on a flat rail it stays there and flakes the paint ultimately rotting the board. The easiest way to effect this is to rip a 2 x 6 in two with a 10 to 15 degree bevel. The sloped sides go up. You can build the fence in sections sandwiching the vertical planks between the 2 x 3 rails. Use galvanized nails. If you have a cap rail, bevel the top each way.
Here we do no not recommend using cement around holes. Cement attracts moisture and holds it against the wood causing rot. Granular fill below the posts is a good idea. A 7 to 8 ft high fence seems excessive and would violate building codes around here. You should check if 6-0 is the maximum permitted. Your eye after all is 5-0 to 5-6 above the ground so lower fences are very effective in screening a view. The added height increases the problem of wind loads and fence posts holding the thing upright.
Finally I was told about a cheap method of lengthening the life of decks that might be applied to the fence. My friend said he used 2" wide strips of roof felts, (tar paper) stapled to the top of deck joists under the decking. He said that he had seen decks made of white pine that were still in good shape 20 years latter. I've seen treated materials fail in half that time. He claimed that the tar paper acted to separate and seal the wood members and acted as a mild fungicide. Who knows, maybe it would work better behind
PServerin,
Thanks for all of your suggestions, especially about ripping the 2x6 into two pieces. I'll alter my design and insert your idea.
As far as fence height goes, I'm in an un-incorporated area of town and I doubt there are any county-wide codes for fence height, but I'll be sure to check nevertheless. I haven't noticed many fences over 6' in my area now that you mention it. One of the reasons for the height is that my back yard is actually lower than my neighbors on both sides. They're not that nosey, and I wasn't going to make it the full 8' any way, but I appreciate your comments. At this point I think 7' is a max.
I live in Alabama, so freeze isn't exactly a concern. We rarely (like once every 4-5 years) see a 24 hour period that remains steady below freezing, and even then it would only be for a day or two and the highs would likely be around 30 or so.
I'd pour the dry concrete mix around the post and tamp it - hard. Here in Alabama, using poured concrete around the posts usually ends up as a leaning post with a blob of concrete on the bottom. You can come back in a week and finish the top. Don't know why, but it seems to form a better bond that way and lasts a lot longer.
In Alabama you may not have frost but you sure do have wind wind rain. The main point I wanted to get across is to try and create a fence that does not hold or trap water. The most beautiful fence in our area is now breaking apart and rotting because they set the fence boards into a dado in the bottom rail.Attached is a sketch up model showing the elements of what I am talking about for a fence. The boards should have a minimum of 6" clearance to grade. I show rails on either side of the fence boards that are gapped. How opaque you make the panel is up to you. If you add a top rail slope the top and flip over and brink up to the top the other two top rails as trim under the cap. Size things as needed. It's just a sketchPeter
I'm sorry that I didn't see your post earlier. I've done a few dozen fences (for myself, and for others) using treated lumber, but not using "just dimensional lumber".
The first item that I'll mention (and maybe another poster has already said this....) is that your idea of a dado on the bottom rail will cause problems. That dado will hold water, which will cause the rail and the face boards to rot -- even though they're treated.
Second, you call this a privacy fence. If your definition of privacy is that the neighbors won't have to look at your patio, then do what you will. But if your definition of privacy involves gettin nekkid in a hot tub, that's a different story. Because treated wood moves a lot, and that movement will create spaces/openings.
Third -- here's maybe some fun, and something that will make your finished product a touch better than most. You can run treated wood across your router table or shaper, and get pleasing results.
See the pics -- both are from a fence I did a few years ago -- one is a detail before the stain went on, the other is a good general view.
The detail shows that I added a crown molding to the face of the fence, wrapping it as needed around trim stiles.
The face boards are shaped, to be similar to the pine beadboard panels (1X8) that are prevalent inside that house. In addition, they are tongue and groove.
But note that since this was a hot tub enclosure, and since the wood moves so much, that there is a second "layer" of vertical fence boards, and the vertical joints are staggered. (So if a board moves and opens a slot or crack, you still can't see through.)
I've done others like this one, using a "board and shaped-batten" design. No tongue and groove needed, no shaping of everything -- just the battens.
Good luck -- and post some pics when you're done.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled