OK, this may belong on Breaktime but… we do outdoor projects over here also so..
I am about to build a couple smallish decks off the back of my house (say 6×8) that will have stairs going down to a central patio (the decks are really just big landings at the top of the stairs)
Anyway I would like these to become a silvery grey color and I would like to not have to mess with them all the time. I grew up with a house that had a deck that was 4 level and covered something like 66′ by 14′ and was stained redwood. It was like the Golden Gate Bridge by the time you finished staining the thing you had to start over again. So being as the silver grey color will go well with the house that is what I would like.
At one point I was thinking Cedar but looking at a bunch of stuff including an association for Cedar suppliers and they suggest NOT letting Cedar weather naturally. So what am I do do? I sure do not want to get into the staining bit again. What do the rest of you use for things like outdoor chairs and such?
I would think Epay (sp?) but I am not sure that is in the budget. Also I will need a lot of 4X4s and 8 large 8x8s. (to get the look I am after) So being as I thought you could leave cedar weather, but the Cedar folks say not to what options do we wood workers have?
Doug
Replies
If I had to do it all over again I'd build my deck with Azek.
Unfinished cedar is fine if it has a chance to thoroughly dry out. Where you get into trouble is if you live in a constantly-humid climate (e.g., Pacific Northwest or Gulf Coast/Florida) or if the deck spends a good part of the day in the shade. I certainly wouldn't want to use it in a ground-contact application.
Redwood performs better than cedar in the wet, but I wouldn't recommend it for anything that you sit on or lean against, as some boards will let loose a torrent of microscopic splinters after aging for a couple of years in the sun.
Plantation teak and ipe appear to be pretty indesctructible, but expensive (ipe is less expensive than teak). Another possibility is "tigerwood" (aka gonçalo alves--Astronium sp.), but availability seems to be hit-or-miss, and it's not always less expensive than ipe. Current ipe prices are around $5-6/bd ft for decking, somewhat higher for structural members. Bear in mind that ipe has incredibly high stiffness, so structural members can have much smaller cross sections than they would need to have if they were made out of an "ordinary" wood.
-Steve
<While I am running and ducking> I'd never build another deck unless I used Trex or something of that nature. Colorfast, non-rotting, largely maintenance free.
You ever walk on that in bare feet in the sun? IF so how did the blister heal?
Doug
Well, I'm not a barefooter anymore (I'm reformed), and if the safety police are around, you're gonna get cited for even bringing up the idea. Secondly, I've walked many a deck and got me some meanazz splinters. Pick yer poison.
Doug:
I have recently added a screen porch (16' x 12'). After considering all the usual suspects, including Trex, I went with Ipe because of its durability. I don't like the composite materials.
You might want to look at Massaranduba, Garapa and Tigerwood. These are all reasonable alternatives to Ipe but not as expensive. If I didn't spring for the Ipe, I would have gone with one of these three.
Hastings
I'm a little surprised that white oak hasn't been mentioned. It goes to a silver grey and weathers well. For best results use heart wood--that's true with most woods I think. Red oak is not a substitute--it's pores run through the boards and trap water that leads to rot from the inside out.
Steve,
I'm a little surprised that white oak hasn't been mentioned.
Ditto. I can show you some 150+ year old fences up here made with white oak. Still holding the horses in too!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/4/2008 3:02 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Go with cedar and ignore those nuts that insist on powerwashing and "treating" their decks every year. I built a large deck in St Loius out of cedar and it looked gorgeous. I'm now in NJ and have a cedar fence, also untreated and also with a nice silver patina.
I build decks with Azek, Trex and IPE for other people. I'll always stick to cedar for me (or redwood, if I could get it here).
Tinton Falls, is that in Ocean County?
I'm in Cumberland County, but most posters like to locate as far away as possible from me.
"...but most posters like to locate as far away as possible from me."
It's that persistent aroma of tannic acid....
-Steve
It's that persistent aroma of tannic acid....
Or it might be what I had for dinner last night.
Tinton Falls, is that in Ocean County?
I'm in Cumberland County, but most posters like to locate as far away as possible from me.
Nope, it's Monmouth county. See, I got one more county away from you.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I'll let you know if I drift thataway. You can shoot for Passaic or Sussex.
I was allwas under the belief that you could just leave cedar out side (as long as it could dry out) and it would turn silver grey and that would be that. That is what had me going. As for Ipe, well I priced it out around here and I could build the deck about 3 to 4 times for the cost of going with Ipe, so it is looking like cedar is the best option.
Doug
To me, cedar seems to soft for the actual deck boards. It's fine for trim and I see no reason not to let it go gray. My entire house is cedar shingles and I've seen many that are just left to go gray. For the bones (joists, posts etc) I would go with pressure treated. Almost anything else is more costly and less rot resistant. Ipe turns to a nice gray, but the choice between wood or synthetic is largely one of personal taste. Most synthetics will benefit from closer joist spacing, something along the lines of 12" centers. There's also a product from Grabber that allows you to fasten the deck from underneath making for a real clean look on the top.
A recent photo of an untreated Douglas Fir bridge deck circa 1940 in Seabeck, Washington on Hood Canal:
Edited 4/3/2008 11:48 pm by BobSmalser
"And the Pacific Northwest has a dry season from July to October that rivals Arizona's. It's hardly humid year-round here."
That really depends on your particular microclimate: http://www.olympic.national-park.com/weather.htm
I grew up in Northern California, and there it's easy to tell whether a particular spot is one that has humidity all year round, or one that gets dry as a bone in summer: If the trees are tanoak, coast redwood and California laurel, it' a humid area; otherwise, it's dry.
-Steve
I've owned and managed tree farms and sawmill operations here since 1975.Not many people live on the Pacific side of Olympic National Park with 160 inches of rain. The major population centers west of the Cascades only get around 40 inches of rain. Some only get 25. On the east side of the Olympic Peninsula I get around 60. It either rains or mists on you all winter here, with few sunny days. And when the days are sunny, it gets quite cold (and undrying), as befits a location further north than 90% of the population of Canada.Every single one of those areas has a distinct dry season where rain stops entirely by July 4th and doesn't begin again until late September or later. Humidity during that period is extremely low, and cold nights are the only factor that prevents wood from dessicating completely. Depending on the particular year, the cedar in my outdoor stacks runs 12-16% by late winter and drops to 6-10% by the end of September. Those are moisture swings as severe as almost anywhere on the continent.
Edited 4/4/2008 12:21 pm by BobSmalser
"Every single one of those areas has a distinct dry season where rain stops entirely by July 4th and doesn't begin again until late September or later."
The same is true in Northern California, where rain is sporadic at best between June and October. (Growing up in the Bay Area, I thought that the definition of summer was "the time of year when it doesn't rain.") However, there are pockets where fog collects during those summer months, and it's in those areas that humidity stays high throughout the year, everything is covered with moss (people included), etc. It wasn't until I was in high school, when my family moved a little further inland, that I realized that it was possible for the sky to be clear at sunrise.
And people do live in those areas. I found this: http://www.cityrating.com/cityhumidity.asp?City=San+Francisco. Notice how there is hardly any change in humidity throughout the year. Compare this to Seattle (which has the lack of rain but not the fog), where the seasonal variation is considerably greater: http://www.cityrating.com/cityhumidity.asp?City=Seattle.
Even in San Francisco, which is geographically rather small, there can be tremendous differences from one neighborhood to another. My sister-in-law lives in Mill Valley--in Marin County just north of San Francisco--and there it's a block-by-block proposition regarding whether or not you ever see sunlight. In certain parts of the Bay Area, a five-mile drive during the summer can net you a 30°F increase in temperature and a 30% decrease in humidity.
-Steve
Ask yourself why drought-resistant conifers dominate rain forests getting 200 inches of rain a year.If the rain was more evenly spread, we'd have deciduous trees dominating.
I suggest cypress. I am reclaiming some now from a 50 year old barn. It is as solid as a rock. That's in termite infested central Florida. It is also light, so no heavy stress on your hinges. You will need to use stainless steel with it though for hinges and fasteners otherwise you'll get discoloration. It will weather to a silvery gray untreated.
Not sure how much you need, but several lumberyards in the southern U.S. deal in it.
Ken
Keep in mind that I am in Michigan, we define summer as 3 months of bad snowmobiling. We tend to get rain once a week or so (except the late July and Early Aug. Then we tend to be dry unless it is a thunderstorm.
So we do not generally dry completely out but we do hit 90 plus a lot and 100 is not unknown (this is around Detroit, not farther north)
As for being north of them Canadians. Well that is not hard here we go SOUTH to go to Canada. (I kid you not look at a map)
I hope to use what ever i end up with the the walking surface of the decks/steps and for a couple of chairs to go on the small decks and or the patio.
By the way even in winter we tend to have a lot of sun and dry out so I would not expect the deck to stay wet all that long and it is on the east face. Good morning sun and shade in the afternoon.
Doug
I'd use whatever durable wood I could get locally at a good price. White Oak, any of the cedars, Baldcypress is harder than cedar and would be excellent, Sassafras, and even Western Larch and Doug Fir. You are in a sufficiently cold climate that you'll get good service out of any of them.Use all heartwood and construct your assembly with an eye toward preventing the puddling that may cause the wood reaching the 20% MC threshold for rot. That's a more critical problem with dense woods like oak, as they remain wetter in outdoor service than most softwoods.
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