Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Sep 08, 2011 10:12am | #1

   BLO will provide almost zero protection by itself.  But first let me ask about how you applied it.  Did you give 24 hours between each application?  Did you do a thorough job of wiping off all the BLO that remained on the surface before letting it cure? 

   Over cured BLO which had not been allowed to build a film, Formby's Tung Oil Finish, which is just a alkyd varnish wiping varnish, should have worked just fine unless you had some which had gone over the hill.  Varnish has a long shelf life UNTIL opened, but after that can deteriorate rapidly. 

1. 
   fitzhugh1 | Sep 08, 2011 04:31pm | #2

   BLO and Formby's TOF

   Thanks for the help.

   I applied the BLO with a soft rag after sanding to 600. I put a few tablespoons on the cloth and wiped it on, possibly too thickly on the first coat as I thought I could just wipe off the extra. It did seem to keep coming back out for a while, so I kept wiping the surface down periodically for the next couple of hours.

   I left it overnight and sanded it down lightly with 400 and increasingly more intensely through 2000 (got lots of higher grade sandpaper left now that I got a good set of japanese waterstones, so thought Why Not? And I've had trouble w/ steel wool leaving bits behind). This got a wonderful surface and depth without being super glossy.

   I waited another 24 hours and repeated, and again a couple more times.

   I tried two cans of Formby's on a test piece over BLO, one high gloss and one low gloss, both had that same tackiness issue over BLO but none over a plain wood test piece.  Both cans were bought and opened about a year ago, so perhaps both are funky?

   I suspect the BLO might not have truly cured. I'll wait longer no matter what I do next.

   What is a good option over BLO? Should I just make sure it is cured fully and try a new can of Formby's? Is there another product to try?

   I don't have the option of starting from scratch, but I can rework the finish if need be. I gather I don't have many options for that with BLO since it penetrates.

   Thanks!

1. 
   Rich14 | Sep 08, 2011 05:07pm | #3

   Fitzhugh,

   As Steve said, the Linseed Oil is going to provide almost zero protection.

   No offense at all intended, but you're just chasing your tail and accomplishing nothing. Sanding the wood to 600 grit before applying finish accomplishes little other than burnishing the surface so that a proper finish has no chance of adhering. Further burnishing to even higher grits immediately after applying BLO accomplishes nothing but micro-abrasion of more of the soggy wood tissue.

   BLO takes months and longer to polymerize, the burnishing that you're doing has nothing to do with any "finish material" that you think is on or "in" the wood (actual penetration is infinitesimal). You're just affecting wet wood fibers. Eventually the whole surface will just dull down as the BLO dries, hardens and sinks from its current penetration.

   If you liked the Formbys, get a new batch and apply that. (but first sand back to about 320 grit) It's just a wipe on varnish with some BLO (or some other vegatable oil) in it. It will at least give some protection. Use several coats, a few days apart, give it a few weeks to harden (3-4 is better), then burnish with steel wool or some of that micro-grit sandpaper (with or without a lubricant of some sort, including, possibly, a little of the Formbys itself) to get some of the look you think you've achieved with the still-wet-BLO-wood. At least the thin layer of hardened varnish will then actually retain the polishing action of the abrasive.

   Rich

1. 
   fitzhugh1 | Sep 08, 2011 06:45pm | #4

   Thanks Rich (edited)

   Rich, thanks for replying,

   Yeah, I'd realized the BLO would offer no protection, hence considering other additions. I'd read a lot before starting, but I'm quite the beginner and keep reading contradictory things later. I'm new at this and having fun learning, trying to parse out the best approach from so many different and often competing ideas on the web.

   I'd read that smoothness (not shine) of oil finishes is a product of how smooth the wood is sanded, and believe I'd read taking it to 600. However, just a few minutes ago I read elsewhere what you are saying: sanding too finely prevents the finish from penetrating properly.

   Perhaps you're thinking of raw linseed oil? I'd read that raw linseed oil takes weeks to cure but BLO takes 24 to 48 or so. In any case, at best I was cutting it too close. Not having read of a test, I assumed it was dry if rubbing hard with pad of finger or thumb didn't result in any oil coming to the surface - not talking skin oils. If you're correct and BLO will also take months, then I'm way early!

   I called Formby's after my last response and was told the problem was the BLO would need 3 days to fully dry, but it should be OK then, and that the cans should still be fine since they apply normally.

   Luckily, the large part that really matters just has BLO on it - didn't touch it with anything else.  The piece on which I tried Formby's over BLO  is a small, simple piece I can easily replace if I find I need to.

   So, since I've used BLO already,  what should I use over it to provide some protection and how/when should I apply it? I don't want to go with a hard plastic-looking finish like poly. The wood with the BLO looks beautiful, surprisingly more depth than I've seen in my minimal experience with Formby's TOF or wipe-on poly. I chose BLO initially because I'd read it was one of the best at bringing out that depth (I'm talking in the wood, not a shiny thick surface layer). The wood had a deep 3D shimmer that changes greatly at different angles. Emphasising that with some minor protection is my goal.

   What should I use next time instead of BLO with that same goal in mind (minor protection, bringing out figure)?

   Thanks for taking the time to read and answer all this! It is a huge help to us newcomers.

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Sep 09, 2011 11:01am | #5

   Step Back a Bit.

   I suggest that you have too much BLO on already.  I would use mineral spirits applied with 3/0 steel wool rubbing in the direction of the grain.  Wipe the surface completely dry with lots of paper towels.  This will remove most of the excess BLO.  Once the surface fully dries allow at least 3-4 days for the remaining BLO to cure.  Sand with 220 paper in the direction of the grain and vacuum off the dust.  Now apply your clear coat.  You can use the Formby's but understand that it is a hightly thinned varnish and takes a number of coats to build a film thick enough for protection and durability.  But, being highly thinned, you could wipe it on instead of brushing it.  Be sure to allow the time stated on the label for each coat to dry.

   It's quite common for new finishers to over think and over work their finishing and finishing plans.  I don't know what the items are that you are making but selecting a finishing schedule starts with how the item will be used.  This determines the type(s) of finish that are required.  The next choice is what appearance the woodworker wants to achieve.  In all cases, no matter the experience of the woodworker, testing out the whole finishing schedule is a priority.  Never let your project be your learning curve.  Trying and testing your schedule on scrap material is the professional way to approach finishing.

   Finally, if you are a new finisher, I strongly recommend  you buy Bob Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishing.  Amazon will have it.  Jeff Jewitt's Taunton Complete Guide to Wood Finishing is also excellent.

2. 
   Rich14 | Sep 09, 2011 01:37pm | #6

   Fitzhugh, Raw linseed oil

   Fitzhugh,

   Raw linseed oil never polymerizes. It's the vehicle with which artists oil paints are made. BLO is a misnomer. The linseed oil is not really boiled, but heat-treated. Commercial "boiled" linseed oil also contains metal compounds that catalyze the polymerization process. I was referring to BLO.

   Polymerization (hardening) of BLO is a very slow process. It takes weeks, months, even longer, despite any "advice" you got from Formbys (actually CYA PR is what one gets from a manufacturer's information). A BLO application will certainly be dry enough to handle in a few days but the chemical rections will continue for a very long time. Apply it to the inside of a cabinet, fail to give that cabinet very adequate ventilation and take a sniff inside a month or two later and you'll understand what I mean.

   It's all for nought anyway as the "hardening" that linseed oil achieves is useless as far as any protection that a finish is intended to provide. Linseed oil "develops" colors in certain woods and brings out grain and patterns in a very pleasing way. For some like teak, oak, walnut the effect is striking. Other woods simply look muddy. It takes some experience to learn. This color, figure-enhancing effect is the real usefulness of BLO. But as a finish all by itself, it's useless. 

   Linseed oil was used centuries ago when that's all there was to impart some "finished" look to a piece. There were no varnishes as we know them, no lacquer, no shellac. The effect was probably noticed when people handled a wood surface with oily hands from eating, or other activities. The linseed wetted the wood, killed some of the light-difusing properties of the surface wood fibers, developed color, and just made the piece "look better" than a raw wood surface. The freshly-wetted wood glistened for a while, then got dull in a few days or weeks. So more linseed (or other vegatable oil) was applied. That was then.

   There is no argument that a properly surfaced, freshly-oiled wood surface (certain woods) can be quite beautiful, with wondeful color, irridesence and "chatoyance." But, that's all that can said. It's a transitory state that will quickly change, having no further usefulness. In many cases, EXACTLY the same effect can be achieved with  a quick wipe of mineral spirits or alcohol. Go argue that THOSE are a wood finish. (At least when they evaporate there is nothing left behind to become the rancid, sticky residue that is the legacy of wood that has received many applications of some vegatable oil,expected to harden over the months and years.)

   The "mystique" of the process of applying BLO (or some other vegatable oil) continues to be told as though it's some secret of ancient masters. Newcomers "rediscover" it all the time. It's really just silly nonsense.

   Over the centuries varnishes were developed, shellac was discovered and laquers were synthesized that are true "finishes." They give real protection and beauty to wood. Any competent finisher can apply any modern substance to achieve a "look" varying from a very close-to-the-wood-just-oiled-appearance to a magnificent "piano" finish or anything in between while avoiding any tendancy toward a "plastic" surface.  A so-called "plastic" appearance is usually the result of applying any finish too thickly, especially synthetic urethanes and failing to properly level and polish, or "finish the finish."

   I believe the result that you are trying to get, as has been mentioned, is what we refer to as a simple wipe on varnish technique. It is easy and foolproof to apply. But DON'T equate EASY with QUICK. It's NOT quick. It's just easy to do, if you take your time. You have to exercise some patience.

   It's done with a mixture of varnish (any oil-based varnish will do), mineral spirits and BLO. The proportions are not critical, nor are the actual ingredients. 1/3.1/3,1/3 works, as does significant variation. Urethane varnishes work, alkyd varnishes, etc. You need SOME varnish, SOME BLO, SOME solvent. That's all.

   The only real variable in the process is the wood itself. And you have no control over that. It will respond to the finish as it will. And the amount of color and figure enhancement will vary from sample to sample of the same species. Any wood that won't accept a varnish will fail.

   Varnish and mineral spirits can be the only ingredients if you don't need the color development from BLO. 

   Ignore commercial "magic" potions and all their promises. No matter what they call themselves (and many use some variant of "tung-oil-finish" no matter WHAT is in them, including not one iota of tung oil. The misnaming of oil finishes in the industry is shameless) they are just some inconsequential variant of the above. The only magic ingredient is some varnish and enough solvent to make it easy to apply as a wipe-on process.

   Practically ANY domestic wood can be finished this way. Some tropical hardwoods can, some can't. One tries a test sample, always.

   In my shop - Teak yes. Padouk, yes. Cocobolo (a rosewood), dismal failure. Brazilian rosewood, yes and no. Zebrawood, yes. Bubinga, yes, Lignum vitae, no. Afrormosia, no. Shedua, yes. Ziricote, no. Test your own.

   Sand the wood to about 320. Don't skip grades. The more care that is used to completely remove the scratches left by the previous coarser grade, the better the result (with any finishing process). Don't go higher than 320. Often 220 is all that is needed.The finish needs a "tooth" in the wood surface to which to adhere. It's the final hard, cured surface of the finish itself that will eventually benefit from final polishing, not wood fibers.

   Wipe on the brew. Keep the surface wet for a few minutes (5, 10, 30 - it's up to you). Wipe it off. Don't go crazy wiping it bone dry, do it gently, but get any visible residue off. it may be necessary to get stuff that bubbles up out of open-pored wood for an hour or so after the inititial wipe-off.

   In this first step, whatever BLO that the wood is going to absorb will get absorbed and color development and grain enhancement will take place. The BLO and varnish residue that remains on the wood will polymerize as a result of combined metalic driers that each brought to the mixture. In your case, sanding back to 320 grit and applying such a brew, or even just varnish cut with mineral spirits (you've already got BLO in the wood)  will do the job.

   Wait 24-48 hours and apply again. The wood will be 95-99% sealed by the first application so the BLO is just along for the ride in this application. It doesn't have to be there at all. The first varnish layer will have bound to the wood surface and will have leveled itself to a finer surface than the 320 grit-sanded wood. The varnish surface will be very delicate. The purpose of the second coat is to complete the wood sealing and to build a little on the microscopic layer of varnish. The second varnish coat will bond well to the soft first coat.

   Another coat can be added 24-48 hours after the second, but that's the point of diminishing returns and you'll be wiping off as much as you apply each time after that. After the last coat (2 or 3) let the project alone for at LEAST 2 weeks. 4 is better. Varnish takes time to polymerize (cure, harden). Sure it will be perfectly dry in 48-72 hours. But a film that is tough but rubbery at 2 weeks will be very tough and HARD at 1 month. The film has to be hard to benefit from the next polishing step. Do it too early and the film won't benefit, or it will easily abrade away.

   The quality of the surface of the hard varnish will be a function of the way you wiped, the quality of the wiping cloth, the chemical properties of the varnish and the way it leveled and settled as it cross-linked and dried. It may have all the visual qualities you want, or you may now start a brief polishing process using 4-0 steel wool with or without some lubricant such as mineral spirits or water (1 qt with 1-2 drops of diswasing detergent). Following steel wool, you can try wet-or-dry sandpaper up to about 600-1200 grit, but I wouldn't go much further than that. In all probability, the 4-0 steel wool will give the look you want. It won't have exactly the wet appearance of freshly-applied oli, but it will be a very attractive soft glow which won't deteriorate one bit with time.

   This finish won't withstand the rigors of a family dining room table (Not much will. THAT 's an entirely different varnish or lacquer story), but it certainly can suffice for a piece of living room furntiure, or last forever on a piece of display art. And if excessive use eventually rubs trhough the finish some day, it can be repaired to new in minutes with just some 4-0 steel wool as an applicator and a little additional "brew."

   Rich

3. 
   fitzhugh1 | Sep 09, 2011 03:37pm | #7

   Thank you both, Howie and Rich

   I made the mistake in starting this by not reading broadly enough - thought "I want a finish that will do it's best to bring out the surprising look of this wood when I wet it with Naptha" and that led to BLO. Only after I continued to read between coats did I realize my mistake - that it would be nice looking until the softest bump or scratch.

   This is very helpful information, thank you for taking your time to write it. You are right Howie, I was overthinking (and under-knowing) as I am very new to this. I've ordered the Flexner book as suggested.

   I rather suspected you meant BLO when saying it took that long to polymerize Rich. You weren't just saying "harden", and I could easily picture it would harden quickly but take a long long time to continue to really cure. I saw the change from dry to HARD after leaving the piece I first used just Formby's TOF on hanging untouched for about a month just by chance before getting back to it. I could have just done that again but much of the fun is exploring and learning, though as Howie said, I'll avoid making my actual piece my learning curve from now on. When waiting for the BLO to harden before sanding back and using Rich's mixture do I wait a few days - until no longer tacky at all (it's that way now) or wait until fully polymerized - a month or two?

   I wanted something harder than bare wood or just BLO but without the look I associated with thick polyurethane finishes. I certainly don't mind taking the time, I just needed to know how to properly spend it. Now I've got a great, detailed approach to follow, both for this situation and next time when I haven't gone running around wild with BLO. Oh, and I'd have been dissapointed when, after all that work, the wonderful finish lost all it's wonder, even without scratches.

   Last couple questions:

   When I tried 4-0 steel wool in the past it left countless tiny fragments all over the surface. Should I rinse it with something first, or do something else to prevent this?

   What is the proper cloth to use for applying a finish like Rich's mixture - you mentioned it as one of the important factors. I'd tried different things, best I came across was some simple soft cotton cloths rather like t-shirt material that had no discernable lint. Since the Kleenex Viva brand paper towels work almost as well, I figure there's room for improvement.

   I've read that Naphtha and Mineral Spirits are interchangable, only differing in drying time. Is that really true? Or, more accurately, Rich, is it OK to use in your mixture? It seems likely drying time would have an impact on the finish.

   Again, thank you all for the help.

4. 
   user-64052 | Sep 09, 2011 03:55pm | #8

   it would be interesting

   to actually know what you are putting it on?

   ron

5. 
   Rich14 | Sep 09, 2011 05:20pm | #9

   Sid,

   Beautiful work.

   Rich

6. 
   user-64052 | Sep 09, 2011 05:48pm | #10

   thanks

   for the praise

   ron

7. 
   Rich14 | Sep 09, 2011 07:13pm | #11

   Fitzhugh,

   Yes, as Sid asks, over what wood are you applying finish?

   Yes, you are over-thinking this process. Very common for someone new to finishing.

   For instance, you're now referring to "Rich's mixture." If there was any information I was trying to convey it was that there is NO such thing as a specific mixture in any or this. The general process that we've been discussing is "Oil-varnish finish" or "wipe on varnish finish." Such a finish is extremely forgiving, both in manner of application and in ratios of ingredients. It's just so hard to "get it wrong" that it practically doesn't matter how it's done.

   There is no "Rich's mixture." The process is not specific enough to assign some name to the mixture. It's just a generic recipe. Just use an oil-based solvent (naphtha, mineral spirits, "odorless" mineral spirits - take your pick), some activated or catylized polymerizing vegetable oil (BLO, Tung, walnut, soy, castor - take your pick), some oil-based varnish.

   Vary the ratios. Just use varnish and solvent, leaving out the oil completely. Wipe it on and leave it on until it's hard. Or wipe it on and "wipe it off" while it's still wet. Repeat as often as you want.

   That's a lot of degrees of freedom. It just seems to work no matter how it's done. The result is a more-or-less, close-to-the-wood, lustrous finish no matter how experienced or inexperienced the finisher. There is slight variation, depending on method, but it is really hard to screw this up. And that's why so many people like it.

   But with the additional info you have added, it does sound like something has gone wrong with YOUR process. No matter how one prepares the brew or applies it, the finish should be dry to the touch within 24 hours. It's so easy to get to that point that it's hard to get newcomers to just leave the piece alone for a while and allow the finish to achieve some hardness. It seems all "dry" and ready to go so quickly.

   So why is your job still tacky? I don't know. But if it's that way a month after application, the process has gone south. Sand it off and start over. You can scrub it as hard as possible with some solvent and coarse rags or a nylon scrubber to remove as much of the gummy stuff as you can and hope that a new mixture will get some of its catalyst into whatever residual is still in the pores and crevices to jump-start its hardening. But I suggest getting a fresh start.

   Rags - old t-shirt fabric is fine. Any old, clean, well-washed rags will do.

   Steel wool - only use it on a piece that's been sealed by at least one finish coat already. Large and small specks break off as a normal part of the process. If you use it as an applicator on bare wood, steel WILL get imbedded in pores and will look bad if visible or will even if too small to see will inevitably rust (yes even under the finish). If used dry on hardened finish, all the steel debris should just harmlessly wipe away. If used to apply new finish over an existing, hardened layer, or with finish to burnish an existing film, you must wipe all residual off the polished film to get rid of the debris before it's trapped in drying finish.

   In no case should steel wool ever get "stuck" in a tacky surface film.

   Rich

8. 
   fitzhugh1 | Sep 09, 2011 10:25pm | #12

   It's hard maple. It's for a simple and rather silly folk instrument. Think washtub bass with a rigid neck, tuners etc. It has a fingerboard of white oak that I sealed with some layers of CA glue and got a hard, smooth surface with a card scraper.

   Sorry - I didn't mean to say it wasn't hard yet. It got super tacky a couple minutes or so after applying the formby's tung oil finish over the dry-to-touch BLO. It clearly wasn't acting the way it does when applied to bare wood. It was like it started to dry super fast, way to fast to finish applying it and put it down in a decent state. I do think I applied the BLO either too thickly or added new layers too fast, or some of each. I was able to wipe off all the tacky residue at the time, though it was work.

   I'd tried the steel wool on a previous project, and wasn't sure if I was supposed to use a fluid with it or not. I was using it between applications of formby's even before I learned it was not actually tung oil.  I think I tried it dry, saw the bits all over, brushed it off and used some fine sandpaper instead. I'll try it again.

   thanks for the help.

9. 
   fitzhugh1 | Sep 09, 2011 11:16pm | #13

   I tried the combination Rich mentioned (aka "that which is not known as Rich's mixture") and it went on as it should, whatever happened the last time with all that tackiness didn't happen this time. I sanded it first w/ 320 and wiped it on, kept it wet, wiped it off and am still occasionally wiping the tiny pin spots that rise. I'll give it a few days and add a coat, repeat again perhaps, then wait a few weeks and polish if it seems appropriate. Very different than the tacky mess I had previously and still looks nice for a first coat.

   I'm glad there's a way to get this back on track. I'll do the more important larger part tomorrow when there is better light.

   Thank you all.