Hi Guys. I know this question has probably been asked many times before but here goes. I have been using Mimwax Poly for a long time and have never had a problem with it. However, I’m looking for something new. Something better/different, a different look. A varnish that I could cut with mineral sprits to make a wiping varnish and also use it out of the can over shellac, oil and stain or just on bare wood. What do you guys recommend, what names and where can I find it? What’s expensive and what’s not so costly?
ZABO
Replies
First, poly is varnish. It's a varnish made either wholly or with a dollop of urethane resin to make it more scratch resistant. Being varnish, you can thin it to make a wiping varnish. Mix it, or any other varnish, 50/50 with mineral spirits and you will have a wiping varnish or a wiping poly varnish.
If you want a nicer looking, more clear finish try using a non-poly varnish. Brands to look at are Waterlox Original, Behlen's Rockhard, Pratt & Lambert #38, Sherwin Williams oil varnish and Cabot oil based varnish.
I'm working on a gunstock with Daly's BenMatte and I really really like what I see so far. Permalyn was a favorite, but I think BenMatte will easily move to first place on my list.
Brent
I used to make my own using thinner, tung oil and McCloskey's Heirloom varnish. After a while, I realized I was making Waterlox. I now use Waterlox instead. You can thin it a little and wipe it, wipe it straight from the can, or brush it. I use the "original" which has the lowest ration of resin. It builds fairly slowly and I like that because I can control the gloss, by just adding more coats and stopping when I like what I see. It's now one of only two finishes I use. The other is shellac. Same deal; I make my own from flakes to about 1-1/2lb cut. That's fairly thin, but I can build it up until like the thickness and gloss. You can buy shellac flakes in colors all the way from clear to dark amber to impart the look you want. Shellac is tougher than you think and when steel wooled and waxed, ooh la la......
Why not just continue to make your own "waterlox"? Cheaper. Instead of continuing to add layers of that, you can just top coat with some wiping varnish for a more durable final finish.Gretchen
I used to make my own using thinner, tung oil and McCloskey's Heirloom varnish.
Can you provide some specifics as to what brands and how much? I'm thinking equal parts, no? Pure tung oil? Sounds like a good recipe.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I do equal amounts of Pratt and Lambert, BLO, and turp or spirits.Gretchen
Can you provide some specifics as to what brands and how much? I'm thinking equal parts, no? Pure tung oil?
My first and second coats were 50/50 pure tung oil and thinner. Slopped on until no more was absorbed then the excess removed. To accelerate the cure time of the tung oil a little bit, add some japan dryer
Steel Wool between coats
Third and fourth coats are equal amounts of tung oil, thinner and varnish. slopped on and wiped off leaving only a it behind.
Steel Wool between coats
Fifth coat was 75% varnish 25% thinner brushed on. Repeat untol gloss look about right
Sand lightly with 320 grit before last coat
Last coat was 50% varnish 50% naphtha brushed thin and fast. After thorough drying, apply wax with steel wool and buff.
Gretchen, now do you see why I now buy Waterlox instead of going through this machination? In the end, I think the waterlox is cheaper. Usually, between jobs, the varnish and tung oil would go bad and I'd have to get new.
You certainly did complicate the finishing process. It might be very impressive to someone you were selling it to, but it doesn't do much for getting a good finish. AND yes, if that is what you are calling Waterlox, no wonder you thought you were doing the same thing..
Finishing isn't totally easy, but it doesn't have to be "mystical". You made it "mystical".Gretchen
Quickstep,Just to complete the bashing of your brew - "To accelerate the cure time of the tung oil a little bit, add some japan dryer"(You meant "accelerate the cure of the tung oil" not "accelerate the cure time.")Anyway, metallic driers have very little, if any catalytic action on the polymerization of tung oil. Linseed, yes. Tung, no. Heat treating tung oil (don't do this at home, kids) does increase the rate of polymerization and can make the difference between its remaining wet or soft seemingly forever, or hardening enough to use in a few weeks.Rich
Try Varathane floor varnish.
4Runner
What you were making is a mix of oil and varnish and is not even in the same class of finishes as Waterlox and should not be thought of as being in anyway interchangeable. When you mix oil and varnish and apply it you still have a mixture, and because of the oil it should not be allowed to stay on the surface to form a film, because if you do that film will be soft and gummy. But Waterlox is not a mixture of oil and varnish, it is a varnish, plain and simple. It does not have to be entirely wiped from the surface. It can be allowed to dry as a film, and a number of coats can be applied to achieve what ever thickness of film you desire.
To get the equivalent of Waterlox, you just add thinner to an oil based varnish to achieve a desirable consistency. This thinned wiping varnish can be used in the same way as Waterlox.
The oil/varnish/thinner mix is most closely approximated by one of the "Danish Oils", Minwax Antique Oil, or Watco, to name a couple.
>> I used to make my own using thinner, tung oil and McCloskey's Heirloom varnish. After a while, I realized I was making Waterlox.Not sure I understand why you think your brew is "making Waterlox". Waterlox Original is a varnish pure and simple. It has no tung oil mixed in although the drying oil they use to make their varnish is tung oil. Varnish is a mixture of a resin (phenolic resin in the case of Waterlox) and a drying oil (tung oil in this case). The two are heated until they combine into a new compound called varnish. A thinner is then added to make the varnish easier to apply. The tung oil that was added to the original mixture is no longer tung oil. It's now varnish.Your brew is what is known as an oil/varnish mixture where the oil is still distinctly tung oil. You could mix Waterlox Original Varnish with either tung oil or linseed oil to make an oil/varnish mixture.Howie.........
OK that was really great for me you folks. Some prolly dumb questions, OK?
Why would you want to use varnish vs oil/varnish, or should I ask under what circumstances?
What is a conversion varnish?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Use oil/varnish when you want an "in-the-wood" appearance, as if the wood had no finish, but just a natural satin sheen. Protection is modest, but for much furniture little is needed. It's easy to renew the oil/varnish mix, and it will need it occasionally. I tend to think of this as a relatively casual look, great for rustic pieces and the like. Think Danish Modern furnture--or Moser.
Use varnish when you want the more formal look of a film finish, and when a more protective finish is wanted. But remember with the film comes a finish that is much harder to repair, and which if damaged will show it more.
Conversion varnish is a catalyzed finish that yields a very tough that cures quickly. It ihas become the standard for kitchen cabinets, in part because of its protective properties, and even more perhaps because it cures so quickly that it can be wrapped and shipped quickly. Not something for the home shop.
Notice that while conversion varnish is dramatically more durable than ordinary nitrocellulose lacquer, so is traditional resin oil based varnish, once it has had the time needed to cure.
We, me included, are misusing/misremembering the name. It is "Watco" finish we are "making"--the mixture.Gretchen
Try this.
1 part varnish
1 part linseed oil
1 part naptha.
This is a good wiping varnish, I've used gallons of it.
Then if you want more build up quicker adjust the formula. My current recipe is :
1 part oil
1 part naptha
2 parts varnish.
This only requires 2 coats before you start to get a sheen. The other formula requires at least 3-5. My formula is easy to wipe on and has a nice look and feel when it dries. Touch ups are a breeze, just wipe some more on. I have also used gallons of Waterlox.
Or just equal parts varnish and mineral spirits. Naphtha makes it an even quicker drying wipe on.
Gretchen
Sorry for the mistake in posting to Old Green, who may or may not be interested!! Meant to be to ALL.
Edited 4/21/2009 10:44 am ET by Gretchen
Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll experiment a little with an oil varnish mixture. I see some of you recommend to use turp some MS and some naptha. I have always used MS to thin, so what's the difference or what are the advantages of turp or naptha.
ZABO
>> I have always used MS to thin, so what's the difference or what are the advantages of turp or naptha. Little practical difference in any of them. For me, I don't like the odor of turpentine and it's a very variable product. Mineral spirits, naphtha and paint thinner all work finish. The naphtha evaporates a little faster but it has no affect on the drying and curing of the finish itself. BLO and varnish are still BLO and varnish no matter what they are thinned with and both take their own sweet time to fully dry.Howie.........
Naptha dries a little faster but not enough to make any difference. I like the smell better than turps and ms. Also when you apply it you wipe it off before it sets up to hard, because of the varnish getting sticky. Then again a little later you'll notice a sheen, wipe it off again and rub the mixture bback down into the wood. Then it looks really good. Kind of a matt finish.
4Runner
What material do you use to rub it down with?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/21/2009 9:38 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
paper towels often or an old t-shirt/rag
Thanks Jeff,
Wasn't sure if you used something slightly abrasive or not. Was thinking burlap when I read your post. Finishing is something that I need to work on. So many options.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No you don't need anything abrasive at all... smooth and absorbant is probably better.
I use a gloss varnish and then adjust the shinyness if necessary...(usually not)
I usally have some old T-shirts that work great. When yu aply it you wipe it off pretty soon and your rag gets pretty saturated fast, I'm thinking of just starting with a rag. Then when it has set up a while and is sticky you wipe it again and when you think you're all done rub your hand on it and wipe off any sticky areas, again. When you wipe you're getting rid of the sheen, which is what you want.
I haven't had to use burlap or any thing coarse. If the piece is in my shop and I'm working around I'll wipe it done every chance I get. One piece has about 8 coats. to get out dust mites I've used a green scrubbie.
Have fun and enjoy.
4Runner
OK, so I decided to make my own oil/varnish mixture but I can't find any varnish everyone around here has poly only. Can you believe in a town the size of Lafayette (medium size city) that no one has just plain varnish. One place has Old Masters but it's a good drive away. I can however find spar varnish. I know that spar is a long oil varnish. Has anyone of you used it for an oil/varnish/thinner mixture. Maybe just use a little less oil? What are your recommendations?
ZABO2
>> I can however find spar varnishThat will work just fine for an oil/varnish mixture. The proportions of equal parts of varnish, blo and mineral spirits are not critical. You don't need to make any adjustments because of the use of "spar varnish".Howie.........
the spar could also be poly. Gretchen
>> the spar could also be poly. Yes it could. When making an oil/varnish home brew, the type of varnish is basically immaterial. Use whatever you have--varnish or poly varnish. By the time you mix it with linseed oil and then wipe most of it off, the varnish loses it identity.Howie.........
And I, of course, agree with that, but the OP seems not to have made that leap.Gretchen
Varathane floor varnish, fast drying and tough.
4Runner
>> Varathane floor varnish, fast drying and toughCould be, I've never used it. But as an ingredient in an oil/varnish mixture, those properties are irrelevant. The drying of an oil/varnish is dependent on the linseed oil which is slow drying and the "toughness" is totally negated again by the addition of the linseed oil.Howie.........
Good thinking. I thought I was on to something.
4Rnr
If you have Ace or DoItBest hardware stores (maybe other franchise chains), they have a "Ship to store" option. There is no shipping charge as it is simply put on the next (~weekly) delivery truck. DoItBest, for sure, has Cabot 8000, the successor to McCloskey's Heirloom. http://doitbest.com/Varnishes+and+shellacs-Valspar-model-144.0018000.005-doitbest-sku-779494.dibYou might also try a local independent paint store. You might have to ask (one of mine keeps it in the basement) for a non-poly varnish. Even Sherwin-Williams carries a non-poly varnish.
Use gloss, intstead of satin, because the stin has a flatting agent added to give it it's satin sheen & the finish won't dry as clear as gloss will.
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