I’ll try to make a long story short. I am a hobby woodworker, although I do a lot of hand tool work, I still rely on stationary power tools and portable power tools for milling stock. I use a router for profiling edges and routing slots etc. I estimate I might use a router for approximately one hour with each project, and I make approximately four projects per year. In 2005 I purchased a Porter cable pc8529 plunge router as a replacement for my twenty year old Makita fixed base. The Makita had seen lots of hard use on construction sites when I was younger. Any way, the Porter Cable router has seen approximately 20 hours light use and is now inoperative! It appears that the “electronic motor speed control” has given up the ghost! The Porter Cable will power up only on the lowest speed setting and will shut down as soon as any load is placed on it. It just won’t work after only 20 hours! Makita was still working when I gave it away! Porter Cable 20 Hours! Makita hundreds of hours and still ticking! Porter Cable = JUNK! Makita = REAL TOOL!
I am saving for a new router ( money is tight with two in collage) when I have enough saved you can bet Makita, not Porter Cable, will get my business.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Replies
More info. Porter cable service center told me the part (motor speed control) is no longer available. Imagine that!
Bob, Tupper lake, NY
More to follow.
Bob, the situation sucks, no doubt about it. However, if for no other reason than to get the router fixed so you call sell it and get some $$ out, I would suggest you jump the service center level and start working at the corporate level to see if you can get the part. Granted, it may turn out that it's too much trouble to put it in (perhaps dgreen can provide info on that), but if you could get the part and fix it, at least you could get $100 or so out of it, and get a message across to somebody at PC.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hello Forest,
Thanks for the advice. I think you are right about selling it but; I have decided to take a different route. Fortunately, I have a few other tricks up my sleeve, other than being an average woodworker. I decided to take out the motor speed control and wire the motor directly to the switch. No longer has soft start, and only has one speed (full bore) but it is usable. Unfortunately I will still have to save for a good (Makita) router with variable speed so that I can use some of the larger bits.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Another reason not to get rid of my old PC 630. One speed, so far working fine after over 20 years.Leon
Hi Leon,
You got that right. I think that real power tools don't need all that high tech stuff any way. Never have this kind of trouble with my old power tools and machines. You know, I purchased several Makita tools at the same time I purchased my old Makita router. That was in 1986, all of them are still running today! Porter Cable, what was I thinking? ;-)'
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
It is easy to replace, but the part is no longer available and I couldn't even find any of the older speed controls that were interchangeable. That control was a weak point in that tool. Mine is still running fine after years of hard use, but I knew of several others where the control failed.
Removing it and blowing it out is worth a try, and with even minimal soldering skills they are easily repairable. No electronics knowledge is needed, just order one of everything on the board and replace them. The parts are dirt cheap.
Last time I did one Mouser Electronics had all the parts. The ones I rebuilt have not failed since.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Hi Dgreen,
I spend my days working on all kinds of electronic stuff at my job, don't really look forward to doing the same on my weekends when I could be woodworking. Actually, you do have a point, just not worth the effort in my opinion. I have the circuit in my hand, about twenty surface mount passive components too small to see with out high magnification. Two conventional passive components, easily identifiable and replaced, but likely not the trouble. Two active components either one likely the problem but not easily identified or replaced. I think I'll simply chalk up my Porter Cable buy as a big mistake and get a Makita!
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Some years back I had a problem with a Milwaukee drill, and didn't get much satisfaction from their local service center. Eventually I noted the problem on several different Internet forums and called that to the attention of Milwaukee. In the end they more than met me halfway (which, at the time, I duly noted on those several different sites, fair is fair).
You might try that with PC, but my guess is they're heading to the bottom of the market (ie 'home owner') and won't care, but I could be wrong... and you have nothing to loose.
Hi Ed,
Tried talking with a service center, all I got was, and this is no joke, "I don't know". The part that bothers me is that it only had about twenty hours use. Stuff happens to tools with many hours and I can live with that, but twenty hours and I get "I don't know" from the service center guy and that specific part no longer available! Another Makita please.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Like I said, post it on several woodworking sites, and then send the links (with commentary like you have here) along to PC and see what happens.
It is inexcusable. Some years ago I had a Nakamichi tape deck. It weren't the most reliable piece of equipment I had, was serviced by Nak twice, the third time 'sorry, we can't fix it'. I got it serviced once or twice more by an independent shop. I have a Denon now... Similar story re Olympus camera - I have a Nikon now...
Gotta run
After your first Makita with a problem will you condemn that line also? You will run out of makers before long. Porter cable made some very good tools. Most of their routers run trouble free for many years. Parts were readily available and reasonable before black and decker bought them. One tool with a problem does not a bad line make
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Hello again d,
I did have a problem with a Makita cordless drill once, after a single call to the service center I shipped it out and they returned it repaired in less than a week! None of this parts no longer available stuff.
Bob, Tupper lake, NY
Maybe I missed it, but did you contact Porter Cable about the problem? Whenever I have a problem like you had, I contact the company ant tell them (in a calm, rational manner) that I am very disappointed in the product.
If you get mad and start yelling, you may not get good results. Anyway, it's worked for me.
Bill
Hello Bill,
I did contact the service center and no I did not yell and get all irrational, but thanks for the advice. What I did was explain the situation to the service rep and asked if it could be fixed. He replied "I don't know" and then said that the part was no longer available. It was only after that conversation that, I will admit, I got a bit irritated, but never irrational:-) Porter Cable experience; not good. Makita experience; good, and that's all I have to say about that;-)
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Apparently ordering parts from Porter Cable either through the company or through their service centers has been troublesome ever since they were bought by B+D. I've heard about PC parts troubles a couple of years ago when I called on my dealers that fixed tools. It looks like little has changed since. Don't expect anything to get any easier soon with Stanley buying B+D.
I was considering buying another PC plunge rounter for a WoodRat that is on my wishlist. Now I'm not sure which brand to buy.
http://www.mvflaim.com
Have you tried some of the online parts places such as ereplacement parts? I don't know if they have sources of older parts than the manufacturer. They found me a part for my PC sander that is about 25 years old.
John
I checked there when I looked for him, they sold out all their stock. As far as I can tell they were the last ones that had any.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I swore by PC and still have some. The 7518 router powers the router table and its a tank. I have the PC CS and the 894 router kit. I have a PC 690 router that came free with a drum sander. I had a plate jointer but sold it. I also have a PC sander. I've looked at a lot of the new PC stuff and am not impressed any more. They use to be the pro's brand, and now they look more and more just like B&D. I've switched to Festool. Expensive, yes, quality is tops. You get what you pay for. Sad, I really like them.
...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
i also have a bunch of PC tools (690 and 894 routers, 7518 in a router table, 7311 laminate trimmer, biscuit joiner, and a ROS) all of which have handled hundreds of hours of use, and still work great. my biggest problem with them is the lack of reasonable dust collection, and that's why i went to festool originally. in using them, i've learned the festool tools just seem to work better (easier to adjust, hold their settings better, run smoother, etc), so i keep buying more... they are pricey though; i'm not sure i can justify $500 to replace my laminate trimmer which still works just fine.incidentally, i read recently (forbes, i think) that stanley plans on positioning PC to target the "serious" woodworking market. so, it'll be interesting to see how the designs and models evolve compared to b&d (home consumer), and dewalt (contractor).
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
"i also have a bunch of PC tools (690 and 894 routers, 7518 in a router table, 7311 laminate trimmer, biscuit joiner, and a ROS) all of which have handled hundreds of hours of use, and still work great. my biggest problem with them is the lack of reasonable dust collection, and that's why i went to festool originally. in using them, i've learned the festool tools just seem to work better (easier to adjust, hold their settings better, run smoother, etc), so i keep buying more..."
You and I think alike on this one. When I bought my 894 (it just came out), and purhcased the vac hose to use with vacum port and shop vac, I discovered a huge problem. In the plunge base with the hose attached you could not plunge the router down without hitting the hose. I just laughed and wondered what great genius did not test the dust collection feature. I searched the delta PC website and service website and no luck. I assumed there was a missing part or something that would angle the hose away from the body of the base so you could well plunge the plunge router. I called the support group and the guy on the other end said that he had seen many other calls on this topic and there was a part to send me. I got it and it was very funny. It did angle the hose away but elevated it about two inches vertically and prevented the router from fully lowering to the base. I also noticed the part looked familiar and went through my other PC tools and low and behold there was another one just like it. The salvaged a part from another tool to do a band-aid fix. So basically I said forget the DC and just use the router. Well after my first Festool use, I was a convert. They design tools that function and a 3 year warantee and DC is assumed to be a basic function of your tool. And trust me if you have ever been around someone with COPD due to dust exposure, its not pleasant (my wife is a resperatory therapist and sees it every day). I'm like you, they are expensive but in the end whats the cost of a cheap tool. Like I said, I was a huge PC fan and to pick up one of their tools now, and see how the company has cheapened the tools is sad. They did succeed in one thing, losing another customer, me. ...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
"You and I think alike on this one. When I bought my 894 (it just came out), and purhcased the vac hose to use with vacum port and shop vac, I discovered a huge problem. In the plunge base with the hose attached you could not plunge the router down without hitting the hose. I just laughed and wondered what great genius did not test the dust collection feature."we are indeed kindred spirits on this one. i had a similar disappointment with the PC routers. what got me into festool was the need for a new CS. i looked at the PC with its "dust extraction feature" and had the good fortune to try it before buying. the rubber vac attachment (that goes over the saw's flip-out tube) heats up with use and slips off, than the dust spews everywhere... like you, i recognized the part: it also goes on the biscuit joiner and the ROS as a vac adapter. (doesn't work much better there either, but at least it takes longer to heat up and slip off.) so, with lowered expectations, i tried the festool and was truly amazed at how well the dust collection worked. after that, i was sold, and have yet to be disappointed. as others have been saying, it just goes to show the difference between (a manufacturer doing) an integrated design, versus a retro-fit. i also have a bunch of PC air tools, but have noticed the newer stuff is not as good as what i have: plastic fittings versus metal, thinner metal, flimsier attachments, ... sad, very sad.
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Have you tried the ROS from festool. They are amazing. I have the ETS 150/3 and after using the PC ROS (with a dusk mask), it's pure pleasure to use a sander that does not leave my hand tingling, my ears ringing, and dust floating in a cloud around me. I've used it now quite a bit and you can literally lift the sander off the piece, rub your finger across the wood and barely pick up dust. The abaisives last a long time when they don't get clogged with dust. Very well designed. I use it with my CT33e and no dust! Take care....Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
"Have you tried the ROS from festool. They are amazing. I have the ETS 150/3 and after using the PC ROS (with a dusk mask), it's pure pleasure to use a sander that does not leave my hand tingling, my ears ringing, and dust floating in a cloud around me. I've used it now quite a bit and you can literally lift the sander off the piece, rub your finger across the wood and barely pick up dust. The abaisives last a long time when they don't get clogged with dust. Very well designed. I use it with my CT33e and no dust! Take care."i have the same model, and you are right: it's a huge leap above anything else i've tried. the festool abrasives are quite good, but i've gone over to abranet (they make a 6" pad for the ets 150/3) and like that even better. i also have the ds-400 and rs-400 (btw, these are on closeout right now), and use the festool paper there, works very well indeed. don't have a rotex yet, but it's on my Christmas list. :-) also, a little piece of irony: the festool vac hose end fits over the PC biscuit joiner and ROS ports better than PC's adapter does...
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Thanks for the heads up with the abranet. I used their stuff with my PC and was not aware they made the 6" pads. I use my ct33 on everything. I'm looking forward to getting more sanders, but just bought the TS55 and MFT3 so I'd better take a break while I save some pennies. ...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
Bob,
I’m disappointed Porter Cable would leave their customers without a solution. I did a quick search and you are not alone. One person who used to work in a tool reconstruction shop had the following suggestion (is sometime pays to talk their language):
“…If there is a Dewalt SC near you, get them to run an inter-station inquiry. You may get a good deal on a discontinued part for a discontinued model…”
Others suggested bypassing the motor control, leaving you with a single speed, non soft start router. The service center might be able to help you with this too.
Doug
Thanks Doug,
As stated in an earlier post, as soon as I was told that the part was no longer available the McGiver in me went to work removing the defective motor control. I now have a non-soft start full speed plunge router.
Bob, Tupper lake, NY
I'm not a huge PC fan either, but I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about the superiority of Makita tools vs PC tools based on this occurence. It's a bad deal for sure, but it's a sampling of one unit out of thousands. I'd suspect that PC sells considerably more routers than Makita, so it wouldn't be hard to find others who have had defective PC routers, but that still doesn't mean that they have a higher defect rate than other routers.
Your older Makita tools might be more reliable than the new PC router, but they may also be more reliable than new Makita tools. Things change, countries of origin change, quality levels fluctuate sometimes during the transition, quality levels change because bean counters get promoted and engineers get layed off...."stuff" happens....unfortunately, it happened to you this time. For every defective PC router, they're are dozens of die hard fans singing their praises. It's gotta leave a bad taste in your mouth, so I don't blame you for not wanting to buy another PC, but I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.
Better luck with the next one!
The 8529 router has a lot of problems, some of them related to cheap components and others to simply bad design (the depth stop and lock are good examples of poor engineering). I have one and end up reaching past it for one of my old 630 routers... the routers that simply won't die.
Porter Cable redesigned the 630 by replacing all of the proven bulletproof parts with cheap versions and called it the 690. I have one of those as well and when the switch failed I refused to pay $18 plush shipping for a replacement, I got out my magnifying glass and found the switch spec that I could cross reference to a .50 cent Tyco part (I bought 5 of them, if anyone needs one let me know). Why someone thought it was a good idea to swap out the metal toggle switch for a flimsy plastic one is beyond me.
I simply don't understand why manufacturers think that introducing a new version of a tool that is proven and replacing good components with cheap ones that earn them a few bucks more is a good strategy when in fact is destructive to brand value and turns faithful repeat customers into skeptics. Porter Cable used to make great power tools and some of the old standards are still best in class, like the 7518 router that powers my table. I get the whole margin improvement game and the requirement that engineers busy themselves or end up out of a job but at some point someone in charge at PC should just say "stop, the stuff that's good we're going to leave alone, the tools that are 2nd tier we're going to redesign to be best in class".
Lastly, tool manufacturers should tell Home Depot to go screw themselves. Stilh won't sell chainsaw through the Big Orange Box of Despair and they are going strong.
"Stilh"Kind of the same for Weber Grills. Weber said we will supply them at our normal production schedule and there will be no special models or special prices just for Home depot. They just didn't need the hassles and the potential damage to their reputation with cheapo HD versions.
Unlike Honda.
Bought a Honda Harmony from HD but when it needed service, authorized Honda dealers said go jump, we won't service the HD Hondas. (hd or not it's still a good mower -13 years later :)
I moved to the coast to look at sea grass and never mow again --- right.:(
The big Weber I bought from Weber at about the same time as the mower. Weber still has my records and contacts me every year to see if I need parts. Good Company.Boiler
WM,
You remark: "I simply don't understand why manufacturers think that introducing a new version of a tool that is proven and replacing good components with cheap ones that earn them a few bucks more is a good strategy when in fact is destructive to brand value and turns faithful repeat customers into skeptics."
It is a hard one to fathom.
We can guess that there is a large element of that short-term-ism to which many organisations are now addicted. They want to show an immediate and large "success" so sacrifice everything (including perhaps their long-term propspects) to this year's profit. Cut those manufacturing and material costs to the bone!
Yet this strategy also seems to work longer term for some manufacturers. There seems to be a significant portion of the buying public who will get the cheapest and shiniest item without reference to its functional quality or future use. Whilst this is an understandable behaviour in those addicted to fashion and the associated shopping-fix, it seems entirely out of place with tools, which are surely not bought as emblems to demonstrate one's fashionable status to others but for serious employment in making something.....
Or are they? Perhaps one section of the market in cheap & nasty yet techno-looking tools is in fact supported by those tool owners who do nothing much more than display them to their neighbours? Add that market to the one supported by the inveterate cheapskates then.
Perhaps a third market concerns those who do buy tools to use in making something but who are easily distracted by lack of immediate success? I know a number of fellows who buy gubbins to support their latest hobby-fad but who never really test those tools significantly because they are soon bored and trying another fad. For example, I once read a statistic that only 2% of the bicycles sold are regularly ridden, with the majority languishing in the loft, back of a shed or garage.
In short, many manufacturers may be deliberately going the whole hog and adopting that more extreme position of planned obsolescence we have all become familiar with. They have counted their customers and found that 90% of them are just pretending or posturing so never come to care about the tool quality. And we 10% who do persist with a tool can go and buy from Germany or Japan... or China!
Lataxe, not keen to be a fashion-victim (or any other kind).
PS What keeps the market buoyant for manufacturers of quality tools (ones that not only work well but last for decades) such as LV, LN and Festool? Why do they not run out of customers, as they obviously do not?
Bob,
Your experience is illuminating for us tool buyers. Many develop a loyalty to a brand and this is one route to value for money and a good user experience. However, brand loyalty is predicated on the manufacturer's reputation, built through a history of not just good products but also good service.
Such a reputation is jealously guarded by savvy manufacturers; the efforts of Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen to achieve very high product quality and service springs to mind. But only a short history of offering shoddy goods and service can destroy a lifetime's worth of hard-won reputation. Porter-Cable (along with many other manufacturers) seem to be tossing their former good reputation over a cliff.
Of course, there is sometimes a delay whilst we re-orient out loyalties. The unscrupulous manufacturer may lower quality and service but rely on the previously-won good reputation of former products to keep us naive customers brand-loyal for a year or two.
When a manufacturer allows product quality and service to sink downhill (no doubt bamboozled by accountancy-men and their short-term bottom-line cant) this rightly destroys their reputation with us customers. At this point there is no virtue in remaining brand-loyal. Doing so only encouraged the manufacturer to keep cutting standards of quality and service; and costs us customers time, money and frustration. Loyalty is a two-way process.
And a betrayed loyalty deserves a cry of "shame"! Which you have properly given.
How much is your time worth (and I don't mean just in dollars)? Why would anyone one but an inveterate tinkerer want to waste their life in fixing-up shoddy products, that may still fail in another fashion after another hour's use, when they could be making fine furniture as they intended? Vote with your wallet, as you propose to do.
Lataxe
Keep in mind that tools are now in the electronic field. They have either solid state speed controls or fancy batteries or soft start or what have you. And electronics have a tendency to die early or last forever. Lost a TV once after only about 5 hours of use. This the way electronics are. So now we have tools that may die when new (electronic issues) or ware out with use. So the days of the tools lasting forever with out any issues as ended. We by the nature of the tool have made them more prone to break. First off we (yes we, if we did not by these fancy tools and only bought the single speeds these would not be sold) have had electroncs added, then we wanted them to be lighter so we have decreased the wieght (and livespane) of many parts, and we want cheep so we get cheep. Add in the manufacturer wanting more profit so they cut quality and have them made over seas and they do not want to only sell you one or two in you live so you will not (generally) get a tool like you had 40 years ago that last forever. Heck if you are dealing with things like cordless it is even worse. Like it or not power tools have entered the relm of other things that have very short live spans. We are part of the problem (wanting the new fancy stuff) in that we all point out when company B makes a new tool that is nicer (fancy design and features) then company A's old one. So company A has to make a new one (better then company B) and at some point they need to stop supporting the old tools (can't keep everything in production they would go broke) So the old tool can not be fixed any longer.
This is part the fault of the maker and part the fault of the culture we live in (alwas wanting the new fancy item).
Doug M
Hello Mr. Lataxe,
You are so right; I don't even really want to spend all that much time trying to get a replacement part. I suppose, as some have already suggested, that an exhaustive search of the Internet would turn up a new old stock one, but it is likely to be defective also. Nor do I want to cross reference all of the parts on the circuit board and rebuild the thing as others have suggested. I believe some are right in stating that I simply got a one in a thousand bad apple but, so far Makita has "been very very good to me":-)
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Well said sir.
Edited 11/15/2009 11:01 am by PeterDurand
Bob
Sorry to hear about your PC troubles. I am like you, I have a Makita 3612c and a PC with a plunge base and twist type. I like the Makita more in every way. The PC does not get much use from me for a couple of personal preference reasons but it has also been a dissappointment in terms of function. In my experience, most folks who have a good PC and a comparable Makita will favor the Makita.
If you do go to purchase a Makita check out Tyler tools for a good price. They have been good to work with on several tools I have purchased.
dan
Hello Dan,
Thanks for the tip on Tyler Tools, I'll give them a look when I am ready to buy.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
From one Bob to another, your situation sucks. I have had the same problem with other items, not just my prized woodworking tools. I have an old Ryobi (Bosch) belt sander that was in the shop for twelve weeks waiting for parts, and this was b4 HD became their dealer of choice. No more Ryobi now. Same with a benchtop jointer. Indexed knives are no longer made. Now I have a good boat anchor. It frequently happens when like PC, a company is bought out. Then the new company is so heavily leveraged, cuts are made at the behest of the bean counters. Too often quality is sacrificed. I had a riding mower that sat at the shop for 1.5 years. That's right, YEARS waiting on a $59 coil. I told the dealer to keep it, I didn't need another hillbilly yard ornament. I almost dropped dead when the part came in and they called to say it was ready. Now with a lawn service, it sits there waiting for me to get off my fat A** and use it again. Personal experience? I own three PC ROS, a plate joiner, two routers and a detail sander. Not one day's problem with any, except the 1991 -2? first run ROS. I had to replace the H&L pad in the early 2000's. It can all be chalked up to the rampant corporate moves to get larger while buying out your competitors. I too would tell the big box stores to stick it, but unfortunately they are needed by the manufacturers the same as other consumer goods manufacturers need Wal Mart. It sucks, but welcome to the new millenium. I wish you well with your PC endeavors. I would bypass the "non-service center" and go straight to the factory.
This is going to age me, but I still use two tools--the 513 lock mortiser and a heavy duty router--that bear the 'Rockwell' label. Before Porter-Cable bought them out. They are workhorses and still perform beautifully.
I think that with every generation of tools comes cheaper components--trying to save a few dollars and leading to more "replaceability"
The new P-C models feature Chinese-made bearings that are anything but reliable. To make matters worse, it seems like the service personnel sort of looks at P-C as Black & Decker's wicked step-sister.
I guess the bottom line is this: After service costs or replacement costs, we are going to pay Festool prices anyway. Why not give it to Festool in the first place?
hi bob,
this response comes prior to reading the other posts. i have used porter cable stuff since the mid 80's. the little saw boss circular saw i bought back in 1987 has seen enormous use and when they came out with the random orbit sander, in it's present basic shape, i was impressed. since about 5 maybe 7, years ago, i have gone through 5 of their sanders. i foolishly kept buying them, telling myself i must have done something to cause the very early demise of the tool. no more, along with not buying chinese plywood, i have sworn off porter cable.
eef
Interesting thread.I've used Porter Cable professionally for decades.They became my router of choice in the early eighties.I have three or four 630s and a couple of laminate trimmers. I have some weird number of fixed bases and a slightly smaller number of plunge bases.I use them in my router table.I stopped buying any other brand of router long ago. So it surprises me to hear these complaints.In all this time, stuff has broken, and Porter Cable has always fixed them quickly. (Never noticed the cost, I never cared. Quickly was what mattered.) That hasn't been true for other brands in my case.These days, as has been mentioned, companies like eReplacementparts makes it easier, but I HAVE noticed that they're slow, and speed still matters to me, if only because of habit.Carry on!
Sorry, but i disagree, that is not "the way electronics are". Electronics can be very reliable and last many many years, it boils down to the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers don't worry about static electricity like they should, hence the early failure of electronics. Just my two cents worth.
Electronics make car engines a lot more reliable than they used to be in the 70s for instance.
Electronics may be wonderful and they do things we could not really do with out them (this network for instance) But they do break down. more often then not when they go they go sooner rather then latter. If you are going to have (for instace) a mother board melt down (assuming nothing outside of the board is the cause of the problem) it is more then likely going to happen to a NEW board not one you have used for seveal years. Most electroics (the elctronics not the hardware like hard drives that have mechanical systems in them) do not wearout. So unlike something like a motor they tend to die early or not at all. vs a mechanical system dieing of old age and use.
Add in that electronics do not like dust, heat, or vibrations and when you use them in a tool you are NOT improving the live span of the tool. And you ARE taking a chance on the electronics dieing a young death. Mostly during the so called burn in time. So if you have a true solid state system and you only use it for 20 hours and it dies it is most likly an issue with bad electronics (was bad to start with). This does happen (I can name 2 PCs at work, One TV at home and several other electronics including an Ipod that did not make it past 20 hours of use). These things happen. Now that fact that it took years to get to that 20 hours or so does not really change anything with it dieing. What it does change is the liklyhood that anyone had the parts to fix it.
Once upon a time we designed a tool and made it for years and years and years. Then we started to try and out do the other guy with features on our tools. This made everyone design new tools in a sort of round robin. The guy with the oldest design this week designs a new one and becomes the guy to beat. Then a while later that tool is once again behind the curve and he needs to replace that version with a new version that is better (or fancier) then the ones that have came out sense he designed his. Now we add in electroncis something that changes so fast that for the most part thier is new tech on the drawing boards at the same moment that the newst device is just hiting the store shelves. All this does is increase the spead of the change over in designs. So we have companies building and designing tools a LOT faster then they used to. My dad had a drill and router from the very early 1960s and it was not much different then what was being sold 15 or 20 years later. Now we replace whole lines in 3 to 5 years.
At that rate you really can not expect any company to keep parts around. Odds are any company out thier stops making any part of the tool the day it is replaced by a new item. So all they have are the parts on hand. And they can only aford to keep so many of these. What with the cost of keeping track of the part. The cost of storing the part in some building and the cost of inventory in general those parts for all those old tools can cost a huge chunk of a companies capitol. And if they have it sunk in parts that is money they can not spend to design the new tool that the average joe is waiting to spend money on.
Not saying this is right or a good thing but it is a thing. Kind of like all the people that have issues with Wall Mart but then either shop at Wall Mart or expect to get the same Wall Mart level price for items they want to buy. Most of the people seam to want it this way, if they did not then they would spend money someplace else and this would change.
So blame the company if you want but we are the ones that have let them get away with this for years. So we share the blame (not you and me kind of we but the all of us in the US kind of we)
Doug M
A little history might put some prespective to all this: 30, 40 years ago major tool makers - PC, B&D, Stanley, Skil, etc had 3 grades of products - homeowner/light duty, tradesman/medium duty and industrial/commercial extra heavy duty.
But the marketplace changed in the 80's - contractors tools got stolen, industrial/commercial wasn't in demand (steel plants closing, not needing a drill to run cool 4 hours for tap holes in a rolling mill as an example). B&D, deep in debt and the fear of bankruptcy, dusted off a trademark they owned - DeWalt. They merged tradesman and industrial to essentially a grade above homeowner.
Now we have entire generation of builders/woodworkers who think battery machines and the rest of the product sold today are "cutting edge." Many tool companies are now becoming mass marketers - and machines over 10 years old are not supported with parts. And the niche players like Festool are attracking the Lie-Nielson crowd - great product but not for everyone.
Last year, B&D quietly terminated production of the last US made tools at Porter Cable - the 548 Bayonet saw, the 314 Trim Saw, the 310 Trim Router and the 503 Worm Drive Belt Sander. Many of these machines sold for close to $400 on the net - and nobody bought them. None of them had changed much over the years and they were made right here in the US - so when people complain about off shore product, it clearly didn't click with them to buy US.
In the end, it's all about price - forget where it's made, how long they stock parts, etc. Buy it use it a while, throw it away and start over. For me, a great 40 year old machine off ebay does the job well with no glitz, bells or whistles. And there are enough on the market to buy a second as a parts machine. The old saying, what goes around comes around may come into play when enough folks complain and are willing to pay for good product - we shall see.
You are conflating quality manufacturing with quality engineering, when they are two separate disciplines. Not everything made in China is #### and when a PC tool, or any other, fails because some engineer located right here stateside specified a crappy component to save a few pennies, making it in U.S. or anywhere else won't fix it. We can criticize China all we want but that is increasingly like saying you won't buy a Japanese car because the Japanese may be good at making radios but... China is doing what we should be doing here in the U.S., building cutting edge manufacturing capabilities. Instead we are chasing away industrial manufacturing with a regulatory regime that is guaranteed to not create industrial jobs.But the fact remains that the companies that fail in their product strategies do so not because they are shutting down U.S. manufacturing but because they are cutting corners on design, giving up control of their supply chain process and enabling cheap components to end up in finished goods, and relaxing quality control standards as a calculation. It's also an understatement to say that they are chasing the market to the bottom trying to appease Home Depot and the like with cheap disposable products for the low end of the market. It's penny wise and pound foolish, they are selling more of the things they make less money on.
Remember the definition of quality - doing the right things right the first time. I'm not bashing off shore manufacturing - I'm simply stating that the market forces - in this case, American woodworkers/builders - don't want to pay for better product. And the manufacturers complied.
Don't confuse quality with product levels - you can make a perfectly good, high quality entry level product - and the market moved in that direction. However, when a woodworker of builder complains that a machine is not as durable, they are correct.
Problem is, there are folks like me who have very high expectations for a power tool - I grew up with extra heavy duty machines that were designed to run continuously. So when a machine fails, it may not be a quality issue or even an engineering one - when I lean on a 3/8 inch drill I expect it to perform. For me, that means a triple gear reduction 1000 rpm machine - few are made today.
As for the failure of an electronic component, we've seen electronic motor controls evolve. Ten years ago, conversion of 3 phase to single phase using new technology was in its infancy. And there were a number of failures (deep well pumps are an example as well as some controls on power tools). Today, the technolgy is on track with few failures and it is being used in a number of applications/motor controls.
The most classic example of the mis-understanding of quality and engineering is the picture in the front of the Grizzly catalogue of someone inspecting a sea of machines. As Dr. Deming noted, you don't inspect quality in, you do it right the first time by controlling your processes. I'd rather see Grizzly's vendor process control program outline than an inspector wandering around a warehouse. And I have plenty of stories of how B&D have done everything but the right thing right the first time.
I think we are in violent agreement. Quality begins the moment a company decides to design something, not when they build it.I think we need to match expectations with price points. You and I both appreciate continuous duty machinery but the fact remains that the price points for that level of durability places them beyond the reach of all but a small segment of the market. One very positive aspect of newer generation machines and power tools is that they are available to a much bigger part of the market than in years past. What I do take exception to is when companies re-engineer good quality durable products into cheap disposable versions. My earlier reply on the PC 630 to 690 router "upgrade" directly speaks to this.
I agree with everything you said. And the folks with a long design tradtion at both Porter Cable and Delta will agree with you. And I dare say most have left/retired as opposed to producing a "price" machine.
I was responsible for manufacturing in the Economic Development group with State of Maryland government when Nolan Archibald intitated the transition of B&D tradesman and industrial tools into DeWalt branded product. I was shocked at the number of marketing and engineering types who departed B&D during that period. Some had worked with Duncan Black and Alonzo Decker in their last days - they left because they saw a good product being converted to a mass market item.
I still enjoy using older machines - I get them off ebay or wonderful 2nd hand shops like Liberty Tool in Maine.
OMG! Liberty Tool. Closest thing to Nirvana for a tool junkie!
Proud owner of a 3/4" B&D drill motor, AKA Big Bertha. What a monster.
Sorry to hear about your troubles with PC. Before you condemn the whole company, though, I thought I'd point out that I own 6 routers. I prefer to change routers instead of constantly setting up bits. 5 are PC's, and 1 is a Bosch (a gift). 2 of those PC's are 8529's. While I don't have hour meters on them (ha ha ha) I can guess that there are hundreds of hours on each router. I am not a hobbyist.
I am happy to report that all 5 PC's, and even the Bosch, all work great, and I haven't had a problem. I do remember having a PC plunge router that had an intermittent start problem. I brought it back to the local woodworking store where I buy alot of my supplies, and the MGR exchanged it for a new one, no questions asked.
Maybe you should try that route next time.
Jeff
I've been a serious hobbyist for 40+ years now, and only in the last 15 or so years have I been buying tools for the long run. My first acquisitions were used, Sears, or Harbor Freight stuff that did OK for the light duty I gave them. I own a few PC tools - their Biscuit Joiner, Mitersaw, Tigerclaw, and belt sander. All have been very reliable. Any new tools in the last decade have been pretty much dictated by comparison tests from FW, Wood, AWW, and other magazines. Their top tool picks are what I go after, and I haven't bought a turkey yet. Bosch, Jet, DeWalt, Milwaukee,Fein, Festool all make good tools in certain categories, but no one has a lock on the best in all cases. I have a problem justifying the price of the European tools (somebody has to pay for their cradle-to-grave) , though I must agree they sure work well.
Too bad BD/PC/Delta/DeWalt are locked into a race to the bottom.
Doc Chops,
I don't own a Festool anything. I didn't really know much about them until one day I went to buy some hardwood from a guy. He was showing me around his shop and I commented on a half-finished chest. Next to it was a Festool ROS. He said, "Look at this." He picked it up with about three fingers and turned it on. The vacuum quietly purred to life and the sander started sanding. He set it on the chest for a moment, then shut it off and set it back down. I just stood there agog. It was one of the most effective tool demonstrations I believe I will ever see, and it took about four seconds. I know what I'm buying next.
--jonnieboy
"It was one of the most effective tool demonstrations I believe I will ever see, and it took about four seconds. I know what I'm buying next.
--jonnieboy"
Be very carefull about that decision. Festool is like dang Lie-niesen, once you get that first one, it's a very expensive journey because you will go back. I started with the domino and their CT33e vac. I'm quite a way down the addiction path now. A happy woodworker, but a wee bit poorer! Have a good one!...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
I don't own any Festool tools (too pricey for my fixed, retiree income), but it sounds like meth (more addictive than crack) for woodworkers. It's that darned German Mafia again. ;-)
What ticks me off the most is why can't an a US company put effort into a product like they do, stand behind it like they do, and not go for the lowest common denominator. The Germans for some reason have figured out that lowest price does not always win if you have something else!...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
Bones, why don't you start just such a company?
In todays economy and regulatory environment? I'd rather pull my teeth with Harbor Freight pliers.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Man, would that not be cool! I wonder if I send Obama an E-mail he'd finance my tool company. I'd let him count me as a job saved! The question is what what could I call the brand and what would the color be? :)
...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
With the way those folks do math, you could probably count your job created as 4 jobs saved and 2 created.
Tell you what, I'll put a dollar down against my first purchase.
There is an U.S. company that has done that for stationary power tools.
But, in general it is about segments in the market place. Who are your customers? Are they tradesmen? Which would you rather do, make $1 per item on each of a million tools, or $10 on each of 50,000? How much money are you willing to spend establishing a brand name? If you have a well established brand name, that has a dominant share of a fairly static market niche, how do you grow.
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