Last night I was going through the WW shows that I had on DVR. I record them all and then do a quick look to see if I am interested in it before deleting 95% of them. I had a episode of New Yankee Workshop in which Norm made a headboard out of mahogany that had some nice swirling grain. I thought I would like to see it after it was finished so I fast forwarded to the end only to see him slather on what he called a “mahogany stain”. It was a veerrry dark pigment stain that he put on thick and didn’t wipe off the excess before putting on his standard poly topcoat (does Norm know that there are other finishes besides poly?). In the next scene he showed the finished piece.
You could no longer see any grain or even tell what kind of wood it was. The piece looked like it was painted black, except you could still make out splotches of red tone where he didn’t get as much stain. What a waste of fine wood. He could have made the piece out of anything if he was going to finish it like that. I hope that all of the Normites don’t follow his finishing techniques. He seems to have little to no knowledge of the subject.
Rob, done venting
Replies
Alot of folks stain Mahoghany that dark, maroon/ brown color. The wood itself oxidizes over time and will eventually turn nearly blak with that sort of stain. You can see alot of older pieces from the 30s and 40s that look like that - probably some influence from Wallace Nutting
I start with Minwax Wood conditioner and then use Minwax Mahoghany stain. Then without a washcoat I apply a "Tung oil" wiping finish. This removes about 1/3 of the stain. You are left with sort of a highlighting stain that isn't crazy dark. Over the years it actually lightens a bit and keeps a warm color. I am sure their is a more sophisticated way to do this with analine dyes and shellac as a top coat and then a finish varnish.
Frank
Norm does exactly the same thing with Cherry. "Evening out the different tones in the wood," is the reason, but for me, the color is way too dark...Tom's Workbench *
http://tomsworkbench.com
I too don't like dark finishes. Why put a really dark finish over cherry. But, to each his own. I was doing a cedar chest out of red oak that had beautiful grain patterns. The box was made out of a single board that I cut into four pieces with good rays. I took a long piece of RO and made a finish story board with varying degrees and colors in sections down the board and let my niece pick. Guess which one won? It was not the oil finish with satin top coat to highlight the grain. It was the dark cherry stain with garnet shellac. You could barely make out the grain. But in the end it was what my niece wanted and she was happy, so in that case it was the right decision. At least with my current project the wife has agreed to not put any colorant on the hutch, just a satin waterlox. Different strokes for different folks. Take care. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Is your Minwx Mahoghany a gel stain or an oil stain?
Thanks,
T.Z.
Its a liquid stain- the one in the yellow cans in the hardware store- ?parafin based.
Thanks!
T.Z.
I have watched Norm for years and it's funny how is approach to finish has changed especially with Cherry. He used to just wipe it with several coats of danish oil and maybe some wipe on poly. Now that min-wax is a sponser he sure has change his finishing techniques.
Troy
The way I look at it, it's his project, he can finish it as he chooses. It may not be what you or I would do, but so what. Let's also face the fact that Norm's show is targeted at a specific audience within certain range of skill level. There is alot of things I see on tv that makes me sad, but Norm isn't one of them.
jfw,
I fail to see what skill level has to do with painting mahogany. He could have used many different techniques that would be just as easy, if not easier, to do without completely obscuring the grain and diminishing if not destroying the beauty of the wood.
This wasn't an example of differing tastes. I am not exaggerating when I say that this looked like it was painted. Why use an expensive wood if you are gong to hide it? I am going to see if I can find a picture of this headboard and post it here so that everyone can see what I mean.
Rob
Found it.
Rob
It's toooooo funny you mentioned this!! I was watching the hockey game, and my wife came and got me, and told me to turn on DIY (channel 121 here). We were watching tv in seperate rooms. I did, and he was slathering that stuff on what looked like some very nice mahogany. Her exact words were "Look at how he's ruining that beautiful wood."
I believe that's the stain/poly One Step that Minwax is selling at the big box stores, but I'm not positive. Maybe I'll try it on my next piece!! <g>
Jeff
...but did he use pocket screws? ...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Oh, sure, he used pocket screws AND set some brads, "While the glue dries" :-DTom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
ha ha ha.......I don't know. I didn't watch the show. I only saw the last part. I thought the headboard looked nice, though, before he slathered it up. Three dunks in the mud, followed by a couple coats of hand rubbed poly, .........right????
Actually, with the long track record, I'm shocked than a better supplier of finishing products hasn't become a sponsor of the show. General Finishes would be a much better choice for Norm, and just as easy to apply. Perhaps because they're not sold in big box stores. I don't know........
Jeff
Actually, with the long track record, I'm shocked than a better supplier of finishing products hasn't become a sponsor of the show. General Finishes would be a much better choice for Norm, and just as easy to apply.
AMEN, BROTHER!
Personally, I think the minwax colors look incredibly horrible. Never got home and stained anything that even closely resembled the store sample.The samples in Home Creepo look really good, though. Maybe Minwax uses General Finishes for their samples?
Lee
Jeffheath,I'm not sure if it was on 'TOH' or 'NewYankee' but, two weeks ago they showed something on the series that knocked me off my chair.
He had a kitchen cabinet maker show his technique for scribing the base molding of an island to the kitchen floor. After cutting the angles and length, the cabinet maker now measures the molding that is about 1/2" to high and scribes it to the floor, so far so good. Then he picks up the piece and free hand cuts it on the table saw...following the squiggly line...bare hand, no guards, no nothing. I was in total shock, Norm should know that that is the equivalent of having a garment failure at halftime in a super bowl. I have great respect for Norm, but he has to take responsibility too.
Like the finishing, we all know it's 50% of a project time, he should show that too.
Free handing on a table saw is a great way of getting the nickname "lefty". That's not Norm's fault, though. The producer should be shot for airing it.
Jeff
I saw that episode of TOH and was equally astounded at the free-hand table saw cut. I made a comment on the TOH website, but the responses were mostly that I was overreacting and that lots of people do it. Maybe so, but I still though it was amazingly irresponsible to show it to an audience that probably includes mostly inexperienced people.
smslaw,
That's a good idea, I'm going to make a comment too on TOH website.
Jeff,
I am glad that your wife had the good taste and sense to call your attention to that sad display. It don't think it was that horrible concoction they call polyshades that he was using, although that would explain the uneven color and streaking he ended up with. If it was he didn't say it was a stain and topcoat in one, in fact he said that he put poly on afterwards. He didn't however, mention anything about wiping off the excess stain after he slathered it on with a foam brush. So there is still hope that the finish will fail and someone will do a better job next time. :^)
Rob
Norm really has a tin ear when it comes to finishing. He is a pure technician, not much of an artist. And as somebody has already mentioned, Minwax is a sponsor so that probably says a lot.
Edited 2/15/2008 8:48 am ET by BossCrunk
True, Norm is beholden to his sponsors. However, Minwax does have some products that would be a little more appropriate for those pieces.But, then again, he's the woodworker, and it's his call how he finishes the pieces. It's pretty evident when you look at the individual project plan pages, and then look below to see how "Other New Yankees" do it. Those user-submitted projects seldom have the heavy, dark finishes on them.That's what I love about woodworking - there's more than one way to skin a cat!Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
I've watched Norm for years and have learned a lot from him, but I've never been too fond of his finish work. I prefer to leave those dark, heavy, finishes in the 70's beside the Avacado colored appliances. - lol
I also watch David Marks and think that he's one of the most artistic woodworkers around. Most of his work is a little too "artsy" for my taste, but I've stolen many of his "tricks". I seldom see the last few minutes of his shows, however, since I already know about tung oil. I sometimes wonder if he gets a volume discount. - lol
Dave,
Just so you know David Marks uses General Finishes Sealacell and/or GF Arm R Seal to finish his projects. Both of those are oil-based polyurethane wiping varnishes that I don't believe even use tung oil as an ingredient.
Attempting to duplicate Marks' finish with pure tung oil would be an exercise in frustration at best. So while Marks does a slightly better job of finishing than Norm does, he does a greater disservice to his viewers by lying about what he is using. So far the woodworking TV shows are batting .000 when it comes to finishing.
Rob
Rob -
I had no idea!! He always says that he's using Tung Oil, and I've even heard him joke about always using it. I know that I don't use Tung Oil like he does (Brush on and immediately wipe off), and I never use it on a large project unless I have nothing else to do for a few weeks. - lol
I'm fairly comfortable with simple finishes, but anything elaborate goes to a friend who does it for a living. He's forgotten more than I'll ever know, and he always nails it on the first try when I need something matched.
Edited 2/15/2008 6:34 pm by Dave45
I guess we should make you "Minister of Finishing" since your knowedge and taste seems to be above question(LOL).
cheers
Edited 2/15/2008 6:47 pm ET by jfw1960
jfw,
I'll thank you for the nomination and give it careful consideration if it is seconded.
Did you look at the picture I posted? Can you tell what kind of wood is under the finish?
Rob
It is very hard to discern any detail from the photo given it's size, resolution and lighting. I would have to reserve judgement. Are there better photos available?
I am not saying that the finish here is good, I am not saying I like it, I am just saying that some times a dark finish on wood can look nice but we seam to have moved to a point that if you do anything other then "natural" peaple seam to have issues with it.
Doug
Doug,
Don't want to mention any names but I live close to an Ethan Allen furniture factory. They have to either paint it or stain the crap outa it so's ya won't see all the sapwood in it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
great points!! also at the end of the day its the costumers choice & I doubt Norm has 25 years of his projects all at home ,likelly most went to clients? hell I have an finishing ticket & 25 years expereince with over 300 products , I have even done mahogony with a white wiping stain & laqeur . I hated it but the client loved it & still does 12 years later. I have always said anyone can do what they like ,but a skilled finisher can do what others like, & do it very well.
David didn't purposely mislead anyone.When Woodworks started out, he stated he used a poly, linseed, tung oil mix. Eventually, they went to the General Finishes line because they needed something faster for production. At that time, I believe GF did have Tung Oil in the mixture. At some point, it was removed and David didn't know it.The thing to take from all that fiasco was that David Marks himself probably couldn't tell the difference in the product.....supposedly. Just goes to show you that alot of finishes end up giving the user a similar look in the end.
Amazon,
Why didn't he just say he used wiping varnish? Even if tung oil is an ingredient in a varnish, calling it tung oil is akin to calling a cake, flour, or eggs. The tung oil no longer exists in its original state.
I have also heard that David claims the producers of the show forced him to call the finish tung oil. I don't know why they would care what he called it as long as he wasn't using a brand name that wasn't a sponsor of the show.
I don't really buy any of the excuses and I don't understand why anyone concerned with the show would feel the need to confuse the viewers. IMO the responsibility falls on D. M.'s shoulders as it was his show, and calling the finish tung oil is misleading at best. It is supposed to be an instructional show, how would it be if Marks told the viewers that he cut all of the wood to length and width using a router?
Rob
He always says tung oil on the show but if you go to his web site and look at the FAQ section he says it is a mixture from General Finishes. I've tried plain tung oil on a small project and I might as well have used mineral oil. Soaked in quickly and left no sheen. I found the General Finishes on my own before David's show and they are fantastic.
I realize that finishing the project would probably take more time to explain than the construction part, but saying it is a tung oil finish is very misleading.
Bruce
Boss,
I would love to ask Norm if he thought the finished project looked nice.
Rob
I am a fan of Norm for a lot of reasons. AND, I completely agree with you. If the end result is more or less painted, , hell, just use cheap stable wood, or veneered plywood if appropriate to the design.
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Norm is good but I think his finishing work is not always the best. I like the way David Marx finishes his projects.
thefaze,
See my response to Dave45.
Rob
I'm afraid you can't blame Norm for the formula he uses. He was taught that by a high end antique reproducer, who used it to match the color of old antiques. It pretty much gets Norm by on mahogany and cherry and honey pine stain and poly for everything else.
Jack
Jack,
I would think that Norm would be fully capable of deciding for himself how to finish a piece. Saying that he can't be held responsible for the finish because someone showed him that once is way more demeaning to him than criticizing the finish technique itself.
Rob
Rob A. Are you saying ever carpenter should know about staining and finishing? Norm has stated on the show several times that this was the method of finishing mahogany he learned from ??? (sorry can't remember the name). It's not demeaning to him. He builds stuff, that doesn't make him a finishing expert. Was it demeaning when they brought in an artist to do the painted pieces? No, it's just the fact. Not every woodworker is an expert at finishing or for a matter of fact inlay work, turning, or carving.
Jack
Jack,
What I'm saying is that a person of average intelligence shouldn't have to apply the same stain and top coat to every project. It doesn't require a great deal of knowledge to try a different stain color or no stain at all, or to use something besides polyurethane as a top coat. So he was shown that finishing schedule once, does that mean that he is unable to comprehend any other way of finishing mahogany? I just don't understand the mentality of putting countless hours into learning how to build something, all of the effort and time to actually build it, and then treating finishing as something that should be completed as quickly and with as little thought and effort as possible, as if it made no difference in the finished project.
I understand that some people don't like to finish and have no desire to learn finishing skills. That is fine. If a person feels that way they should hire someone competent to do it for them. The finish a piece has on it is very important to the way it looks and feels and whether it is fit for the intended use it will receive. The finish a piece receives may not save a crappy piece, but it can sure ruin a good one.
Rob
Rob A.,
I'm not disagreeing with you, but you have to remember we're not doing a half hour TV show, and just because we don't like the finish doesn't mean he doesn't like it. I prefer Oil based Poly, Joe prefers BLO, Fred prefers dark stains and oil., who's wrong? That finish is one he learned from a professional restorer, and apparently Norm likes it. I know people who just like painted furniture and if you think Norm's finish makes you sick wait until you see someone paint a beautiful mahogany sideboard white with green trim.
Jack
Rob,
From the sound of it, everyone saw the project you mention (that Norm is one popular guy) but keep in mind....we are dealing with the limitations of a camera and unless you do a fairly elaborate set-up it's difficult to show things like grain and tone (reds, browns) on TV. The light bouncing off a subject is all that is captured so maybe we should lobby Norm to build a display stage with complimentary lighting to show off his creations.
Steve
No, he needs to do his show in HD!!!!!!!! Now that would be cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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