Some time ago there was a discussion in the magazine letters page about the inclusion of Norm’s work in what professes to be a magazine about striving for excellence in our craft……
I see Norm’s work and methods in action on satellite TV here in the UK and while it may be top rate DIY work it simply cannot be described as Fine Woodwork in any meaningful sense.
I have just renewed my subscription but having been a subscriber since day one I doubt I shall renew again —- while the reader’s gallery still exhibits extraordinary levels of skill, craftsmanship and design editiorial policy seems to have shifted and articles and other content are not of the same standard.
What I shame – but then I suppose all good things do come to an end
Replies
As someone who has been watching Norm since I started in the woodworking field, don't bite the hand that brought many woodworkers into the arena.
Just don't look at the pages w/ Norm!!
James
Mr Gawdy Squawk,
You beg the question: what is the (your) definition of fine woodworking and which it parameters? You must enlighten us with your high tastes and predelictions. Lay out those pearls before we swine, do.
Lataxe, no aristocrat.
Every now and then we get a case of woodworking snobbery!!!!!!
Check the magazine title - not snobbery but a question of definition ---- there is nothing wrong with what Norm does - woodworking at all levels needs to be catered for ------ but not in a magazine called FINE WOODWORKING
Has Norm evolved from the days of the nail gun?
If not, that alone should automatically disqualify him from the F- in FWW.
I only watched early episodes many years ago, so perhaps his method of work has changed. I stopped watching because I got equivalent advice from Tim-The-Tool-Man-Taylor, and more laughs as well.
More Power!! Urgh Urgh Urgh ...
Seems to be some difference of opinion here on whether being a fine fellow, personally popular, and having a successful career and a shop with many, many tools, by default makes one a fine woodworker.
There is even disagreement on whether an individual's best effort, by default, makes his product fine woodworking.
Does personality, or attitude, even enter into it?
Should one say, looking at a cabinet, or chair, "Wow! This would really be an excellent example of its kind, if only the maker were a nicer guy/ had tried his best/ had more tools/was watched by millions while he shot nails into it, and inspired many of them to buy a tablesaw and router while he did so!"
Or rather, does the piece stand on its own merits, depending on such things as design,proportion/surface quality/construction, joinery, material selection/finish type, appearance,color/ functionality?
A lone pine, offering refuge to the squalking jay
Just try closing a drawer on one of Norm's pieces and a chest of drawers made by any cabinet maker worthy of the name ---- what Alan Peters describes as a 'piston fit' ----- end of discussion
How long have you subscribed to this magazine - are you aware of the efforts it has made over the years to establish a reputation as a show case for the best in wood craft? It is not a question of 'my' definition - this issue has been debated before, no doubt will be again - I know I am not alone.How difficult is it to recognise the difference between good DIY skills and the output of a craftsman - even for the swine, intelligent animals after all, amongst us?
Lataxe:US swine, please.J
I agree with JMadson. Norm has brought many, many everyday people into the shop and got them working. The more the merrier, I say. I often cringe when he starts the finishing process on a nice piece of furniture, but watching him a few years ago gave me a chance to see how pieces move from one piece of machinery to the other (I have never had a mentor for woodworking; nowhere to watch it happen) and the different ways things are done.
And I cheer when he picks up a chisel!!!
Norm has his place - and sure he's a nice guy - but where do you new guys go when you want to progress......there are plenty of UK magazines that provide the introduction to our craft but not one that takes things on a level.Which is why I fell for Fine WOodworking in the first place and have supported it for so long ----- it was filling a niche - somewhere to go to see modern design, traditional, modern and experimental construction methods --- and wait for it, people using hand tools --- all this and some of the finest craftwork to be seen in any field.It would be a shame to loss that unique quality
Shall we define "fine" by me it means OK, not bad, it will do, fine by me. Shall we change the Magazine title to Superlative Woodworking.
Nothing is perfect, So Fine Woodworking is fine by me. Fin'Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Agree. I knew I was a Fine Woodworker when I over heard my four year old granddaughter say to a another child that "Grandpa can make anything". You can't get much higher than that.
That is FINE to the N th degree and nothing better can deFINE it :0)...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
My new grand daughter in law tells me the same thing; "Grandpa you can do anything. When we get a new house you have to build the house and everything in it!" It don't get any better than that.
And bye the way, completely off the subject, my new great grand daughter Andria Jean Elizabeth is an angel!!!!!
Bruce
Nothing like beginning with a bit of snobbery, I suppose. - lol
Dave,
I am hoping Charles has not got a brother living in the UK - a naughty jaybird cawing to annoy.
Lataxe
As a "newbie" to this hobby, I've got to stand up for tpjay... to a point. Call it snobbery or not, but there's nothing wrong with setting standards and striving to meet them. That's what the FINE is about.But to tpjay;
Norm was instrumental in showing me what could actually be done by a normal person, which brought me (very recently) into this craft. But where do you set the standards? We just spent a bit of money on a piece of primitive furniture - a kitchen storage piece built in the early 19th century, probably in a New Hampshire barn. The sides are fit with rabbets and nails - not a dovetail or mortise and tenon to be found. The wood was smoothed with a plane, but only where necessary. The only hardware is the hinges - a wooden toggle holds the door closed.But this piece is very very FINE. The farmer who built it did his best with limited tools and skills available, taking time away from more pressing tasks like feeding his family and cutting wood for the winter. He was undoubtedly proud of it, and his wife must have loved it when he presented it to her. When friends visit us, we get more comments on this piece than the other "finer" furniture we own.Norm is somewhere in between. As a professional, ie. making a living off it, he has to mix pure art with a bit of practicality. Using MDF on the back of a kitchen cabinet enables someone to afford custom-made cabinets instead of off-the-shelf. As a retiree with a hobby, I can afford to spend all day handcrafting dovetails. Norm can't, so he may use pocket screws where they won't show. FINE is in the eye of the beholder.I applaud tpjay for setting standards. But I also applaud Norm for his. While their standards are different, both strive to meet theirs.
Those of you who are confused about what "fine woodworking" really is (and are under some delusion that *it* is demonstrated in the work of Norm Abrams and those of his ilk) can have your confusion immediately cleared up by visiting this site:
http://www.pollaro.com/welcome.php
This is a professional furniture shop and professional furnituremaking at its finest.
"Frank Pollaro is one of the finest woodworking craftsmen living today...."
Dana Messina, Chief Executive Officer, Steinway Musical Instruments
Yup.
View Image "Frank Pollaro has done wonderful work for our family. His craftsmanship, service and attention to detail are the finest."
Amy Churgin,Publisher, Architectural Digest
Edited 1/29/2008 9:10 am ET by BossCrunk
WOW that clears every thing up! And it says right there in your post in quotes what fine is! If a CEO and Publisher says so it must be true it's in print! What was I thinking? I wonder if they could tell me what Art is, what beauty is, what poetry is, what.... etc. Most of their stuff was nice, some, I would not give you two nickles for. Because they are "fine", does not mean Norm's works are not "fine".
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 1/29/2008 9:29 am by bones
What many of the pro-Norm group forgets is that Norm, and even Fine Woodworking, just like TV - is theater. Smoke and mirrors.Let me repeat: It is all theater. Like a Nascar Driver, can Norm do a gig (contract, agent, terms, etc) and wear something other than a flannel shirt? Well, sure he can, his press releases all say that he just really likes flannel, suits him fine! He is just like me!!Do we really believe that he "makes a good living" in his little shop? Slaving over his plans? It is a friggin' "Norm industry" more than a woodshop. "Hey Norm, you're livin' the dream" is the illusion projected. Theater > illusion. Wake up folks; woodworking, fine or mediocre, has nothing to do with it. It is all an illusion that you have bought into (pun intended) and are therefore reluctant to let go of so you can move on. Play your fantasies if you want, but don't call a man a snob just because he hoped for better (as he used to see in FW some years ago).Dave S, angry at your reverse snobbism, and former subscriber
Mr Angry,
Why does hoping for better (whatever better might be to our critic) involve denigrating people and furniture not to his taste?
If I were a bit up myself I might get angry at the constant whinging of the self-appointed judges of taste. Happily, these fellows make me laugh instead, as it is amusing to see folk all hoity-toity about those they look down on and despise, like Victorian old maids tutting at the modern ways of youth.
Perhaps you hoity lads are merely caught in the webs of taxonomy and nomenclature? "Fine" is one of those adjectives that are somewhat relativistic, don't you think? Do you have a classification scheme for every type of object (physical and metaphysical) which differentiates the fine from the not-fine? What other gradations are on this scale, pray?
Lataxe, who prefers all types of reality to mere naming schemes.
Kent,
Your post is illuminating and thoughtful. Standard setting is no bad thing if one wishes to improve. But, as you indicate ("fine is in the eye of the beholder") there are many standards, not all of which are on some linear scale from bad to good.
There always seem to be elitists around, in all walks of life. Their mistake is to confuse the idea of standard-setting with their particular standard, whatever it may be. As the Boss and others of his ilk continally demonstrate, once the blinkers are put on and all you can see is your predeliction, you are mostly blind to the great diversity of human culture.
Those who condemn that great part of the world that is not "up" to their standard are a tedious bunch. They would impose a monoculture, wherein all things conform to their aesthetic and no other. Put them in one o' them private clubs, I say, where they can parp on and on about how the hoi polloi are a bunch of uncultured peasants. Meanwhile the peasants will go about enjoying life, as usual.
Lataxe, an unruly peasant with little regard for his "betters".
Still running with the Fabians I see...
Your theories are quite beautiful and work just fine in the bucolic world of retirement, blogging, hobby woodworking, and cashing state pension checks. The actual consumers of fine woodworking, however, aren't nearly so egalitarian or Utopian. They are a ruthless bunch, those with enough money to actually buy the output of those who would scratch out a living building things of wood.
Edited 1/29/2008 9:07 am ET by BossCrunk
Bossyboots,
Fabians? No, I always preferred the 4 Seasons or even Randy & The Rainbows. :-)
Those consumers of what you define as fine WW are similarly blind to all but that shiney stuff you promote and similar. They will certainly fork out their tens of thousands of dollars for glossy furniture-sculpture, no doubt to display to the other club members for hierarchy-points. (It doesn't look too usuable, except as an art-object). Still, they will keep you in a job.
Each to his own. I lke to sit on a chair rather than perch. Also, I sometimes spills gravy on the table, in my anxiety to enjoy the delicious viands and collations. At these times, the furniture must be both utilitarian and pleasing to my peasant sensibilities.
Do you like them formal gardens too? Ours is more like a jungle, despite being carefully made by the ladywife.
Lataxe, of the hoi polloi.
Lataxe
Do you think Chuckie will come back and actually read these........
ha ha ha
Saw your blog. So that's what you've been up to.....
Jeff
Pollaro is shown here, not in an attempt to please the dilettantes and retirees who can't see past their own personal tastes, but rather as an example of a professional outfit, from top to bottom, clearly working at a very high level with a discriminating, affluent clientele that can actually afford custom woodworking. Obviously, in the world of professional furnituremaking this matters.Frank has chosen to work in a style. Surely, nobody here believes him to be incapable of producing a Shaker blanket chest or a Greene and Greene library table, right?It wouldn't hurt my feelings if Steinway phoned me and asked me to design and build a piano for their line. How about you?
Edited 1/29/2008 1:33 pm ET by BossCrunk
Jeff,
One gets the feeling that C reads but the words go in one eye and out the other. We are just noise to him, whilst the clear bell of his impeccable opinion tolls clear and loud in his own noggin. Certainty - the bane of thought processes everywhere.
That blog is for all to put stuff in you know. It was all Bob's idea and all credit to him for getting FWW to take it up. (Bob@Kiddervilleacres). He has started a Good Thing and I for one am looking forward to an offering from The Boss that will put out our eyes with its splendour.
Meanwhile I am hoping you yourself are even now composing an article for the said-blog on a topic close to your woodworking heart........? :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe
When and if I get some free time, I doubt it will be used to write an article. I'm looking forward to just being able to finish the inside of my shop!!
I've got a large stack of wood that needs hangin'!
Jeff
Jeff,
When and if I get some free time, I doubt it will be used to write an article.
Aw, c'mon man. I'd love to see an article on hangin wood!
How 'bout one on slashin, trippin, spearin and crosscheckin boards! Bet that would be more to you likin, EH!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Land Sakes Alive... what would the proletariat do without you?
EDIT - Not directed to BCPersonally, I don't understand why the original poster's comment is so hard to understand. I am quite appreciative of Norm as well - I think he's done wonders for woodworking as a hobby, and if I needed my home worked on he would be ideal. I think he's capable of quite excellent work, but in general I think he classifies much more as a carpenter who does woodworking than as a fine woodworker.the 'Fine' does seem to denote the pinnacle of the craft, doesn't it? And in all seriousness, if you were going to buy a top-dollar piece of furniture, would you expect it to have brads and biscuits in it? I certainly wouldn't.Taunton has another publication that this article would have been much better suited for, in my opinion. I'm certainly not mad about it, and I wouldn't cancel my subscription over the Norm article, but I thought the same thing when I saw the cover. This isn't elitism, its just a call to return to the heyday of the magazine, when it focused on the highest caliber of the craft, not home improvement projects.Just my opinion, but trashing the poster as an elitist snob seems a little harsh to me. And personally, the 'fine is in the eye of the beholder' argument smacks of the sort of ridiculous relativism that leaves us all as mediocre 'individuals' who can't handle a little criticism. There are objectively agreeable 'levels' of craftsmanship, and I sincerely doubt that anyone here really thinks Norm is working at the highest levels of woodworking. I sincerely doubt Norm himself would think that.
Edited 1/29/2008 1:49 pm ET by raney
So good to hear a reasoned argument amongst the hysteria.
To all--
These are the very same issues we wrangle with all the time at the magazine, and they are not easy ones to tame. But here's my take:
If FWW is to be its best it will strike a balance between reflecting what people are actually doing with their tablesaws and handplanes, and asking them to reach higher. The truth is that many readers have built or are planning to build their own kitchen cabinets, and Norm's are tasteful, versatile, and built to last many decades.
Of course, in that same issue, we offered up 14 pages (a 10-page article and a 4-page Master Class dept.) on building an exquisite Pennsylvania spice box.
Another great question is what we mean by "Fine" Woodworking. And there have been many great posts here on that subject. Generally speaking, at least inside the magazine, "Fine" means tasteful and built to last. Great furniture is a marriage of form and function. In the case of kitchen cabinets, they gather some of their strength from being attached to the walls and floor, hence the biscuits and screws. The right joint in the right place. And, of course, these cabinets have their own functional considerations. But making beautiful kitchen cabinets is not inherently a "lower" pursuit than making a period tea table. Both are made with common woodworking tools, and beautify your home, and improve your life.
Of course, if I had to make furniture for a living, I'd rather be making tea tables, but there is a reason so many pro furnituremakers regularly do cabinetry jobs: People need and value beautiful custom built-ins.
My last point is that close observers of New Yankee Workshop will know that Norm has come a long way from his earliest days of nailing everything together. He has done many traditional furniture projects in recent years, with top-notch traditional joinery. His carpentry background is actually an asset, as it lets him find efficiencies and innovative techniques that others miss.
--Asa (editor)
Edited 1/30/2008 9:54 am ET by AsaC
(Sorry, I meant to send this to "all")
These are the very same issues we wrangle with all the time at the magazine, and they are not easy ones to tame. But here's my take:
If FWW is to be its best it will strike a balance between reflecting what people are actually doing with their tablesaws and handplanes, and asking them to reach higher. The truth is that many readers have built or are planning to build their own kitchen cabinets, and Norm's are tasteful, versatile, and built to last many decades.
Of course, in that same issue, we offered up 14 pages (a 10-page article and a 4-page Master Class dept.) on building an exquisite Pennsylvania spice box.
Another great question is what we mean by "Fine" Woodworking. And there have been many great posts here on that subject. Generally speaking, at least inside the magazine, "Fine" means tasteful and built to last. Great furniture is a marriage of form and function. In the case of kitchen cabinets, they gather some of their strength from being attached to the walls and floor, hence the biscuits and screws. The right joint in the right place. And, of course, these cabinets have their own functional considerations. But making beautiful kitchen cabinets is not inherently a "lower" pursuit than making a period tea table. Both are made with common woodworking tools, and beautify your home, and improve your life.
Of course, if I had to make furniture for a living, I'd rather be making tea tables, but there is a reason so many pro furnituremakers regularly do cabinetry jobs: People need and value beautiful custom built-ins.
My last point is that close observers of New Yankee Workshop will know that Norm has come a long way from his earliest days of nailing everything together. He has done many traditional furniture projects in recent years, with top-notch traditional joinery. His carpentry background is actually an asset, as it lets him find efficiencies and innovative techniques that others miss.
--Asa (editor)
I guess I have the remainder of my current subscription to see which way the wind blows ---- in the end I was just trying to express my concern that a valued friend that has brought me much pleasure over the years was wondering off alone again!Enough said for now.
I like Norm. He's what turned me on to woodworking in the first place. But you've also said you admired him, so it surprises me that you are getting flamed like you are. It's unfortunate that people go into knee-jerk reaction mode when they think someone is being a snob. That's not what I got from your OP, and I share your sentiments about the cover selection. As, I suspect, does Asa in his heart of hearts-he explained the choice and then went on to defend it by saying in the same issue there were 14 other pages of what we might consider "fine" woodworking. I think that's kind of revealing.
I liked the article, FWIW. I think it would have been better in FHB. And oddly enough, the hard-core posters over at Breaktime regularly bemoan the state of FHB, just like longtime FWW readers.
We're all just a bunch of hard-to-please whiners :-)
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
We're all just a bunch of hard-to-please whiners
Am not! :-)
Hey man, you ready for Sunday?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/30/2008 1:12 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I am in such a pickle about Sunday because I am not a Pats fan, and my natural inclination is to hold all New York teams in high contempt. So I will watch just hoping for a really good game instead-kind of like the St. Loo-Tennessee game some years back. Great game, but I didn't care who won.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Please; could someone say specifically what it is that disqualifies Norm's work from the pantheon of Fine Wood Workers? What, specifically, would he have to do differently? …if he wanted to qualify.I for one would find such a list of items really useful and it might help to remove us from the world of highly subjective opinions.Hastings
If FW had decided to do an article on what Norm considered the toughest, most complicated and technically demanding piece of furniture he'd ever built we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
Instead, a decision was made to do an article on building kitchen cabinets you could drive a truck over. Spec'ing three quarter ply backs instead of half inch ply is neither technically or aesthetically demanding.
Does this help?
Edited 1/30/2008 2:58 pm ET by BossCrunk
Here's one: He always talks a few seconds about shop safety and wearing eye protection at the beginning of his show, but I never hear him say anything about hearing protection.
Over the years his voice has been getting louder all the time................
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
From one hard to please whiner to anotherCheers
I'm not happy with that statement.
Something better than "Cheers", please.
;-) LOL
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Asa,That is a very well-reasoned response, and as I said I wasn't really angered by the inclusion of Norm's piece. I also completely agree that he's come a very long way in his woodworking, and it's really really interesting to watch that development. I personally would probably have preferred a more 'elitist' cover project, but I also did read the 'Kitchen' article, and wathed all of the episodes on PBS. I've got a kitchen too... My post was really more about the response to the original poster's comments. Perhaps he could have been a little less contentious about his phrasing, but I still think it was a valid question to ask - is Norm's kitchen renovation appropriate material for a publication that has generally defined its mission as covering high-order craftsmanship of woodworking. I suspect that drive (which is essentially driven by readers, much more than just Knots posters) has changed course just a bit. That's fine. Fine as in 'perfectly acceptable' versus fine as in "of a highly refined and skilled nature".But did the poster deserve to be trashed as an elitist snob for saying that he thought that FWW should be covering more fine furniture works than kitchen cabinets? I don't think so. I think it was a valid position, just as I think the editors' decision that this sort of work is appropriate was a perfectly valid one.
Edited 1/30/2008 10:42 am ET by raney
People want to believe that practically anything they decide to build is "fine woodworking."
Fine Woodworking, the magazine, is more than willing to accommodate this phantasm.
People want to believe that practically anything they decide to build is "fine woodworking."
And other people want to believe that only they are doing fine woodworking...
You're right. There's only one person in the entire world doing fine woodworking and it's me.
Trust me when I tell you that I wish like hell a six board chest was fine woodworking, but I quit deluding myself about this the same day I quit sniffing model airplane glue.
Edited 1/30/2008 5:11 pm ET by BossCrunk
Why can't a 6 board chest be fine? Are simple and fine mutually exclusive?
If it has been in the magazine then rest assured that it is Fine Woodworking.
Boss, I expect a better answer than that from a man like you. Seriously, screw the magazine issues, I'm asking: Does simple preclude fine as far as you are concerned?
I cannot see why it should. Can a hand carved spoon or bowl be fine? I mean they are one board. Can a primitive or folk chair, or stool even, be fine? I think I've seen several that were.
Why can't a 6 board chest - executed with skill in all repects such that it has personality and soul be fine? Surely the 6 board chests you've seen are not all the same as far as quality? Some you might love to have in your home and some you would sooner burn? I submit, that those you would judge desirable enough to live with and enjoy are "fine."
Edited 1/30/2008 5:10 pm ET by Samson
Fortuitously, Wood Jack has provided a link to an artist who shows some relatively simple, spare pieces that are certainly "fine" in my opinion. See the posts above.
Please also note that my post said "six BOARD chest" not six DRAWER chest. At least that was my intention.
Edited 1/30/2008 5:09 pm ET by BossCrunk
I meant "board" and typed "drawer." The point is no different. Quality does not require complexity or embellishment.
I've seen some astoundingly simple designs that are fine woodworking. The genius was in the design and I think these kinds of pieces are relatively rare.
Samson,
".....executed with skill in all repects such that it has personality and soul....."
You've hit the essence of the matter perhaps. The jay, boss and co want only their personal and somewhat glossy aesthetic to be classified as "fine"; but the word is too wide for such a parochial view.
Moreover, the spat about the definition of "fine" is just a quarrel about semantics. What matters is what you allude to: work that has integrity and beauty - more words that cover a larger gamut than a particular example of which some self-appointed taste-judge is a gushing fan.
Lataxe
Thanks, Lataxe. Nice blog entry, by the way. Is your subject in most of those photos the ladywife?
As for quality, it is a tough thing to put your finger on. It defies preconceived descriptions and generalizations.
That said, some activities need to be done well, but do not require any creativity. Take hanging a door, for example. The door needs to be installed in the opening so that it fits well, swings easily, is balanced and straight, etc., but one would be hard pressed to imagine how a door could be hung "creatively." "Fine" objects and activities seem to need a creative aspect - room for the woodworker, artist ,etc. to exercise will, skill, decision-making, perseverance, etc. to end up at something new in some way and unique. The uniqueness might be slight - I choose different boards for my (as opposed to your's or the factories') 6 board chest and cut my dt's at slightly different spacing and angles, and used a rubbed out milk paint finish, and on and on, ultimately resulting in a 6 board chest that cannot help but bear out my efforts and choices.
Norm may well make plenty of stuff that has these creative aspects. This particular article about screwing together plywood boxes and such came much closer to hanging a door; these are things that need to be done well, but which one can hardly imagine being done creatively.
Samson,
You enquire: "Is your subject in most of those photos the ladywife"?
No, this is an ex-ladywife, now the best friend of the current ladywife, although their wife status is separated by a couple of decades. One likes to keep them all nearby and busy, the ladywifes. Why, they may get in to bother otherwise!
Lataxe, an excellent ex-husband as well as a current one (certificates available on request).
Wow, you're a better man than I. I've always hated the idea of women I've had romantic relationships with talking outside my presence. My paranoid fantasies, always run to things like: "Don't you just hate it when he ...."
No doubt it just shows me to be egotistical - thinking theywould bother to talk about me at all. But I mean, what if the one I'm no longer with convinces the current one that I'm a bad deal? LOL
But I mean, what if the one I'm no longer with convinces the current one that I'm a bad deal?
Just show her your dovetails!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yeah, I suppose. I'd like think the current one might explain:
"Yeah, but his "dovetails" have gotten a lot tighter since you knew him."
Just to understand your standards better, how would you judge the work of Joseph Schwarte. Comparable to, less than or better than the work of Frank Pollaro?
http://www.josephschwarte.com/index.htmlRegards,
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
I like the work. It would be fair to say that Schwarte and Pollaro are peers. They could both sit at a table and have a discussion about art, design, and woodworking and neither of them would be speaking hypothetically.
I would be more apt to put a Schwarte piece in my own home. I guess that pretty much says it all as far as my opinion of his work goes...
Edited 1/30/2008 5:17 pm ET by BossCrunk
Thanks for your assessment. I'm sure there are other examples of fine woodworking out there, in a variety of styles. Of course, it is difficult to judge how truly "fine" the workmanship is from a few selected photographs. It would be great to be able to "peak under the hood" on some of these examples.
I'm looking forward to the time when I have something to post in the Gallery for everyone to critique.Regards,
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
How to be PC here. Take for example a Craftsman/Artist I admire VERY much, Geo. Nakashima. His work is simplistically wonderful and beautiful. But if your average Joe Blow WW'r made one of those natural edge slab tables and executed it nearly as well, would it be considered Fine Woodworking or demand the same value in the market place? My wife thinks the slabs are ugly.
Fine Woodworking is all relative.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Wood Jack, most of the blowing about fine woodworking here is pure poppycock. We all know it when we see it. People like Pollaro and Schwarte have a killer portfolio of breadth and depth and it is abundantly clear that they are masters of the craft and artistically gifted as well. One doesn't have to fall in love with their particular style to see that what is on display is a real gift. The dam broke for these two a long time ago and what pours forth is a consistent display of skill and talent and a client list to prove it.
By all appearances, both of these fellows have the skill and talent to maintain momentum. We're unlikely to discover them accepting commissions one month and then opening a woodworking school the next in order to pay the light bill or junior's tuition. Icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned. It takes more than one masterpiece to be a professional craftsman.
Edited 1/30/2008 8:25 pm ET by BossCrunk
You're right. There's only one person in the entire world doing fine woodworking and it's me.
At least your honest.
I do see your point. Labelling something as fine woodworking, doesn't necessarily make it 'fine'. FWW is a brand name, perhaps it's not about just showing the best of the best. Rather it's showing us a way to improve.
For the most part woodworking isn't an incredibly difficult activity. I think that even relative beginners can construct an item of reasonable quality. Quality that is a level or two above what is found in the stores. So 'fine', even in a woodworkers mind, is a sliding scale. I'm sure some that thinks highly of their own work, can look at others and recognize that it's better. It's like Sesame Street, 'Fine', 'Finer'... 'Finest'.
I have issues with people slamming Norm for being Norm. Or that he is not a "Fine Wood Worker" In truth I have a feeling that he is better then most of the readers of FWW will ever be. Not I said Most Not ALL. I would say that most of the readers would be happy to do as well as he dose.
Also I do not understand the idea that the way he builds the units is bad. So he used 3/4 not 1/2 and you can drive a truck over them. In my experience of going into old houses that need to be remodeled i have seen a lot of cabinets that are falling apart, so building stronger cabinets is not bad. You could almost say this is what makes the difference between OK and Fine.
Now as for if the article should have been in FWW, that is harder to say. I am not sure that kitchen cabinets should be in FWW. I mean their is FHB and this would have been a good article for that. So while I can see the question of what he built being a valid one I do not understand the picking on Norm himself or the way he built them.
Doug
You're right, strong is better.
I just remodeled my kitchen in my 30 plus year old house. We had done face lifts before but this time I ripped it all out and started over. When I tore out the sink base cabinet there was no back! Just a stringer at top and bottom for wall attachment, and the back was the drywall surface of the wall showing through! Was I surprised. So, building cabinets with 3/4 backs is not bad, it is strong. If it's not what some of the folk here would do, that's OK. We all have our own preferences or favorite techniques and the end result is the same... a functional, well made whatever. Some of us use Domino joints, some traditional mortise and tenon, some dados, some dovetails, some dowels, some biscuits. If the finished piece is strong and functional, and handsome to boot, who cares how it was constructed.
Sorry for the long winded speech.
Bruce
>Trust me when I tell you that I wish like hell a six board chest was fine woodworking, but I quit deluding myself about this the same day I quit sniffing model airplane glue.<Explains a lot.Only difference between Norm and Sgian Dubh is that Norm actually makes some money at woodworking.Back over to breaktime. Consider the pot stirred, Mr. Asa. You guys sort it out. Have a bologna sandwich on me, Boss.
Reads like more of an insult to Richard than to me.
Boss, I was cut to the quick. My ghast was flabbered. So stung that I couldn't respond for shaking,.... not.
Actually, I've seen Ed's posts over many a year, mostly over at BT where I seldom seem to either lurk or post nowadays due to having far too bloody much to do, and I assumed he was jerking my chain for fun.
I may not at the moment be producing a massive amount of furniture every year, but the truth is I've made my living from furniture for about thirty five years now. I've moved into a form of management I suppose you'd call it. In my case I started running a degree level furniture course full time for a college-- someone has to train the following generation of woodworkers and I think I was hired to teach in the first place largely because of my experience in industry. And what with having to study for a teaching qualification to carry on teaching, working on a pretty large manuscript on a woodworking topic, and doing some furniture consultancy work I don't find much time to make much after my normal 12- 15 hour work day, usually six or seven days a week.
However, come this summer when both my teacher training nonsense is done and hopefully the manuscript should be finished I've got a lot of designs in my head and on paper I need to get on with, along with all the schmoozing of galleries and the like. I think I've enough to keep me going for about ten years of work. After that I'll have another think about what I want to do, if I hang in there that long, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha.
However, I bet Norm has managed to tuck away a much fatter wedge of dosh from his woodworking than I've ever managed, and good luck to him. I wouldn't mind a break or two like I suspect he's had, but nothing like that's come my way yet. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I'll be anxious to see what you come up with... I could use some fresh material to copy!
Boss, I've been very remiss, and I'd completely forgotten of your need to, er, 'borrow' ideas from other makers.
I hope you have enough of my existing work to keep you going until I'm able to supply you with fresh inspiration that will spark your copyist urges.
If you're struggling don't hesitate to contact me off-forum and I'll see if I can rattle off a few quick doodles to keep you going for now. I could of course just take some snaps of other designers work I rather like and email low resolution images of those pieces to you as a stop-gap.
Let me know what you think and need, ha, ha- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I need anything to keep the children fed and shoes on their feet...
Edited 2/4/2008 7:27 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
"Lands Sakes Alive"! I like that exclamation and will steal it for future use, even though I have no idea of its etymology. You are a source of excellent weird stuff!
As to the prols, they never notice me as they are busy with this and that. Some are blowing raspberries at the toffs and their hangers-on. :-) Others slave for a few coins in the hamster wheels of this gew-gaw maker or that. None of them care what we say here.
Now then! Where is the link to your own fine work? I have been waiting years now to see it and wish to be amazed, inspired and cowed all at once (I am an emotion-junky). Come, come - show us all that we may see the light and begin the making of your pedestal!
Lataxe the Fabulist
I keep posting stuff right under your nose and you refuse to look or add two plus two. I know, David, it's going to hurt when you finally figure it out.
Edited 1/29/2008 2:18 pm ET by BossCrunk
My my Boss,
You've had this mask on for quite a while now. Did you lose the others?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
And your first name is Kidderville and your last name is Acres?Bob, my name is Joe. Feel better? I live in Joe-Bob Acres. Eddie Albert lives just up the road apiece at Green Acres.
Edited 1/29/2008 2:19 pm ET by BossCrunk
Good one! Yes I do feel better.:-)
What's your take on this Norm thing? I think he's more appropriate for Fine Homebuilding don't you?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Norm can build. Norm can build. I've defended him on this forum many times. He is not a professional furnituremaker. He will tell you this himself. He is clearly not working in the same stratosphere as a Frank Pollaro.The article did not belong in FW and frankly was marginal for FHB. I believe he has more to offer. Not sure the genesis behind the article at all, but it seems on par with the where the magazine has been heading for some time.I'd like to hear is take, in FHB, on building ornate circular stairs and the hand-railing to go with said staircase. Such an article would showcase his spatial gifts and carpentry skills.
Edited 1/29/2008 2:26 pm ET by BossCrunk
I guess I'm lucky. I only have two critics, my wife and I. As far as what anyone else thinks I really don't care. If someone wants to criticize my stuff that's fine with me as I learn from each and every one. Whether I choose to apply their critiques or not is my decision.
As to the process employeed I could care less, be it power tools or a bloody sharpened spoon. If the joinery is dead on then that tells me many things. If the proportion is right, that tells me many things also, same for color, matching of materials, etc.
When I say many things I'm talking about the piece and its maker too.
My wife and I really like and enjoy period furniture, especially Queen Anne style. When I was much younger I though that I wanted a home where each room had a different style of furniture. The challenge to me would be to come up with a transition between each room.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Relish each day being able to build what you feel like building.
Boss
Relish each day being able to build what you feel like building
Amen to that, brother! I can't wait to have the time to build something for myself.
Jeff
"I only have two critics, my wife and I."
That should be, "...my wife and me."
See? Now you have three critics!
-Steve
Me am my own worst critic.
Steve-"I only have two critics, my wife and I."Unshorting the shortcuts: I only have two critics. My wife is a critic and I am a critic. Or: My wife and I are critics.I think. How would you work "me" into the explanation of who the critics are?Don
"I have only one critic, me."
You took nouns in the object position and moved them to the subject position; that's how "me" became "I" in your sentences.
-Steve
Steve- "I have only one critic, me."Of what is "me" the object? "Critic" is the object of "have." What comes after the comma is explanation, it sees to me. Who is the critic? It is I. Don
"'Critic' is the object of 'have.'"
"One critic" and "me" play the same role in the sentence--they are both the object of "have." Look up "apposition" for more info.
-Steve
Steve-Thanks for the correction. I'll go do some reading on apposition.Don
Steve,
I guess I was taught from the old school. Besides, me seemed awkward in the sentence that I wrote. Guess that ain't Fine grammar huh?
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I guess I have read more of this then I should have. I am not and never will be a Fine Woodworker in your opinion. I build for myself and my family. I have not sold anything yet and have not tried to. I have given most of the things I have made away and usually to the first person that ask for it. They usually ask if I could make them one and I say you can have that one. Which is a better feeling right now than the money I might make. I am going to start to make outdoor furniture to sell. Again not FWW but a starting point. I am also building the furniture for our bedroom and designing our kitchen cabinets to build in the future. My wife says that the things I make are very FINE, wait I guess I am a FWW.
Boss,
I have added 2 to 3 and decided the answer is that you are Frank Pollaro. If so, I praise the fineness of your cabinets and such, even though they are not for me, being so expensive and somewhat loud on the eye, so to speak. Fine indeed, nevertheless (or so I feel obliged to say).
Of course, I am no mathematician nor even a furniture critic so perhaps you are not Frank and the furniture is actually no good. I am so confused by your hints and strange exclamations that a wee dram seems in order.
Lataxe
A wee dram.... finally we agree on something. It's past five where you are, so I think I'll pour myself one and hope somebody rich calls and inquires about a piece of furniture. Hopefully they will forgive my poor taste in Scotch.
Edited 1/29/2008 4:10 pm ET by BossCrunk
Here we go again - that chip on the shoulder - reverse snobbery I guess.
Charlie Bird,
You are forever imputing motives to me that you would like me to have. Still, I can act a part: please send your ideal script of Lataxe the bumbling Fabian loser - I will do it proud.
Meanwhile I am off to read a bit of the latest FWW as it has a number of fine articles in it. Perhaps you didn't get beyond the Norm one before your knicks twisted up and the apoplexy symptoms came on?
Lataxe, covered in chips.
Act away my friend - I will not be reading anymore of your purile messages
Let's just step back a little ----- who are the customers of Fine Woodworking? No doubt some are wealthy patrons who can afford the finest that is on offer, others experienced craftsman keeping abreast of the world within which they make a living.Are you really saying that those that can afford to buy the output are simply a ruthless exploitative bunch out to nail craftsmen to the wall - they must all be Walmart directors for sure!I guess many buyers of the magazine, just like me, appreciate beauty and craftsmanship when they see it --- for some it is enough just to look, for others the inspiration to try and reach higher standards themselves.... in the past FWW has always been there to lift ideas beyond the everyday practicality that Norm demonstrates so well
My my what a chip we have on our shoulder - did I forget to bow and curtsey?Try reading my post again - I am not for execellence alone but excellence in the right place. And for sure different standards are appropriate for different circumstances.I'm no snob - most of my work is by reason of time alone DIY in nature ---- when I turn the covers of Fine Woodworking I expect, and over the years have been rewarded with, articles and illustrations of what woodworkers can achieve when striving for the very best in their craft.
FINE is in the eye of the beholder
Nobody could have said it better, Kent - it's all about the "beholder". No artist, artisan, craftsman, or hack woodbutcher has the right to claim that only their standards define "fine".
IMHO, those "old masters" were competent craftsman who had the ability to create and build designs that have withstood the test of time. I'm sure that they wanted to do good work, but they also wanted to make a living. My money says that if they could come back today, they would be astounded to discover that their work is now seen as near perfection.
After reading tpjay's post (and checking his profile), I was amazed that someone would make such an arrogant statement in their first post here. He may be the greatest woodworker that's ever lived, but I would need to see some of his work before I'm ready to accept that. Like the fella says, "I'm from Missouri.........Show me! - lol
Me arrogant - you make some major assumptions and in the end fail to see the point anyway.What has the quality of my output to do with anything? Am I presenting is as an example for others to follow?And why should be a new poster make my opionions any less valuable than anyone elses.I have subscribed to the magazine from its beginning and still read and re-read articles from time to time ---- I think I have as good a grasp as any other member of this forum on the aspirations of the magazine over the years --- and I reserve my right to protest if I see a valued product lowering its sights.............there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Norm does - it just does not belong in FINE WOODWORKING
... in any meaningful sense.
I guess I must have been in my shop butchering some wood (for fairly handsome compensation) when you were assigned the job of defining "meaningful".
Yes, I found your statement arrogant.
Thanks for the positive comments - and I agree with much of what you say....the issue is not whehter Norm's style of work is useful or not --- and clearly it has a place, I use his methods myself --- but I would never dream of making a piece using these methods and presenting it for inclusion in the reader's gallery or any other feature in a magazine that I have loved for many years called FINE woodworking
Did I say that Norm was not worthy?I hope not - he has a valuable contribution to make - but not in a magazine called Fine Woodworking!
About 24 years ago, I found a way to bolt a Craftsman circular saw to the bottom of a sheet of 3/4 plywood. I taped the trigger, added a fence made from the straightest hunk of 2x4 i could find and a pair of c-clamps, and was happy that I could rip boards to widths they didn't sell at the lumber yard.
...and that was FINE with me
Yesterday I spent the better part of the day flattening and smoothing a tabletop made from the sweetest 8/4 cherry. I used a series of well tuned hand planes - a #5, #4 and #3 - and a couple of cabinet scrapers to make it flat, then sanded it to make it smooth. When it was time to stop (you can never be done, you just have to stop) the shop floor was covered with wonderful curls and shavings, it smelled great, and my arms were sore.
...and that was FINE with me
In between that first and my most recent experiences, I have had thousands of FINE experiences at every level. I've made FINE bird houses and picnic tables, and FINE cabinets, chests of drawers and tables.
Fine is a relative term. I think woodworking has evolved to where a combination of machine and hand work, combined with a good eye, patience and solid, refined skills is needed to produce quality results. I, for one, keep working to find that balance. I keep learning, listening and watching.
Over the years I've watched Norm and learned some things. OK, sometimes I scream "NO" in the middle of a program, but, for the most part I give him a lot of credit for taking his genuine love of the craft and making something meaningful out of it under the constraints and restrictions of a TV production. I know it's public television, but we all know that's a crock and that the content is driven by sponsors - sponsors of machinery. He tries to appeal to an audience that is very broad - beginners and experienced woodworkers.
Those beginners are doing some FINE work. The intermediates are doing some FINE work and the advanced woodworkers are doing some FINE work. They all have to be represented. I applaud Fine Woodworking for including content that speaks to the broad audience of FINE woodworkers - beginner to advanced. And, if I dare bring this up, FWWs viability is tied to the demographics and psychographics of its readership - that's what makes corporations buy ads. FWW has to maintain this broader readership to sell the ads that enable the FINE product they put forth.
This is a FINE hobby/pursuit/vocation/profession that we all enjoy here.
I've been a subscriber for around 20 years - even contributed an article once. I hope to be a subscriber for as long as me and FWW are around.
Frank
Fine woodworking has spent years developing a reputation based on the presentation of excellent adventeruous craftsmanship and creativity --- it is not based on the much broader interpretation of Fine that you employ
What classification would you give to Kenneth Smythe's modular chairs in FWW #44? Fine woodworking or lacking in adventurous craftmanship and creativity?
After all they are constructed with plywood and bolts and no hand tools are used.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
In response to your comment in response to me:
"Fine woodworking has spent years developing a reputation based on the presentation of excellent adventeruous craftsmanship and creativity --- it is not based on the much broader interpretation of Fine that you employ"
If the broader interpretation of Fine that I employ in my initial response may include
Using a Portable Belt Sander in #78 1989A Look at Kit Furniture in #51 1985Essential Tools - A Pro's Advise on Tools for Novice Woodworkers in #131Building a Basic Stool in #125 1997Starting Out - Edge Joining for the Beginner in #48 1984An Edge Jointing Primer in #124 1997Choose the Right Drill Bit in #135 1999(I could of course go on with the list, but even you must get the point by now.)
But I'm not surprised that someone with such an elitist attitude as yours would defend his position with a "you're wrong because I said so" response.
In another response you write "when I turn the covers of Fine Woodworking I expect, and over the years have been rewarded with, articles and illustrations of what woodworkers can achieve when striving for the very best in their craft."
Has it occurred to you that your very own interpretation of fine may have been evolving over the years? ... that the articles you were reading 10, 15, 20 or more years back on belt sander technique, advise for novices, instruction for beginners and primers appealed to you in a different way back then? FWW has always contained articles to speak to those of us at different stages of fine woodworking. Your ideas about FWW exclusively being a source for the very best, or adventurous craftsmanship is an illusion you have created. It's in there. But it's not exclusively about that. Look it up. Take a peek at the above articles.
Has the magazine really gone down hill? I'll quote you from another response: "I have subscribed to the magazine from its beginning and still read and re-read articles from time to time ---- I think I have as good a grasp as any other member of this forum on the aspirations of the magazine over the years --- and I reserve my right to protest if I see a valued product lowering its sights..."
So I take that to mean that when an article gets published about a guy biscuit joining face frames to plywood boxes in an FINE magazine, you will protest and, as indicated in your original post, expire your subscription?
Take a look back 18 years to #84 in 1990. Some clown had the nerve to publish an article on Designing and Building Kitchen Cabinets! There are actual photos of face frames being biscuited to plywood boxes. And, would you believe... get this... a sidebar on (gulp) Building a Corian Countertop!
That one wasn't done by Norm, but by Frank Klausz. Heard of him? He does work like this too http://www.frankklausz.com/gallery.html
Did you not see the magazine lowering it's sights 18 years ago? Or was it that your own sights were not aimed over your nose back in those days?
I'm sorry to have gone on so long here but, to paraphrase... I reserve my right to protest if I see a valued product being assaulted.
That was a good one!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Why spoil a cogent argument with insults
tpjay, it is just the Normanites at play.
Take away their battered, rusted pick-up trucks, their greasy baseball caps with a Porter Cable logo, their nail guns, their real guns, and their six-pack of beer ... and there's nothing left but Norm to fill the empty void.
To the most vocal of these guys the word "Fine" means nothing more than "that's fahn honey, yew all jest go on ahead and make another one raht purdy lahk that there one". Refinement is what they do to oil, and aspiration is something you get when you're choking on your own vomit.
More Power!! Urgh ... Urgh ... Urgh ...
Edited 1/31/2008 5:01 am ET by rondunn
Funniest post on this board in a long time,,,, and true to boot!
tpjay, it is just the Normanites at play.
"Take away their battered, rusted pick-up trucks, their greasy baseball caps with a Porter Cable logo, their nail guns, their real guns, and their six-pack of beer ... and there's nothing left but Norm to fill the empty void.
To the most vocal of these guys the word "Fine" means nothing more than "that's fahn honey, yew all jest go on ahead and make another one raht purdy lahk that there one". Refinement is what they do to oil, and aspiration is something you get when you're choking on your own vomit".
"More Power!! Urgh ... Urgh ... Urgh"
********************************
Your goal of stirring the pot for another 100 post with responses of "kiss my arse rondunn" hasn't seemed to get any bites so far.
Perhaps by changing your presentation of the "bait" would assist in your goal, even though I personally hope not! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Edited 1/31/2008 1:12 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
My new theory is that they're all shills for a rival magazine; or possibly for that intemperate book-burner, Reverend Scowl. (He of the pamphlet: "367th Blast of My Trumpet Agin' the Monstrous Regiment of People Not Like Me"). Not only that, the shills are all the same creature - the troll Deaflug of Blinkered Bridge.
Besides, my cap is stained not with grease but with the sweat of my brow, as well as a little odour-de-pointer from Monty the dog, who likes to play "snatch and run". And naturally, I only drinks six-crates of Champagne or malt whiskey from Islay.
Lataxe, thinking about getting out the net and pitchfork.
PS Have I got an 'ook in me gob? :-)
Lataxe old chum,
I've often noticed that those most vehemently espousing the cause of "embracing diversity", and not being judgemental, are frequently the most intolerant of any diversity of opinion.
But I believe, like I think you do, that each of us is a special, unique individual, (just like everyone else).
Ray
Ray,
...."embracing diversity"....
I embrace the ladywife, glasses of scooch and various animals of a doting or furry type. I don't know how to embrace a diversity but if it comes dressed in a nice frock I will certainly give it a hug, unless it slaps me away with a cry of "Unhand me, varlet"!
Me, I like the boss and all the other loons. They are fine creatures and I will put them in my zoo for all to see and marvel at, should the net get a-holden of them. What is a discussion without rancour, high opinions and catcalls? Nowt but a church meeting. I find the vicar bores me, for the most part. Why cannot they issue fire and brimstone, as in the olden days? No matter, there is plenty hot stuff here in Knots!
Lataxe, divvil-goader and stoker of the Knots furnaces.
Lataxe,
I believe that it is possible for folks to hold to, and even express, a variety of divergent opinions without descending into rancour, or rancor. Of course four some, it cannot be held that there is an "and" in any discussion; it must be "eitheur/ our" (as in the propeur way to spell a wourd). It can be a challenge sometimes to not respond in kind to a rancourous comment, but I often find that a soft answer not only turneth away wrath, but can also leave the wrathful with more egg on his face than on mine. But then, rancour is fun to observe, if one is at a distance enough from the fray to avoid the flying egg altogether.
Ray
Net and pitchfork very well may have much in common from what I have concluded, Lataxe. And trolls posting under several stage names do not necessarily need a clairvoyant to un-ravel their mystery as they actually appear as clear as the water that runs from your "tap" down the kitchen drain.
I often wonder if they have become bored with the afternoon "soaps" and are just looking for a source to take it up a level kin theory? Given a personal choice, I would chose the "soaps" and just turn the volume to "0". At least you get a glimpse of a "hot looking honey" there on occasion and that would not be likely here sifting through the garbage.
So... off to the shop after I drive my rusting pick-up to the source for fresh glue. No base-ball cap as after wearing a soft cap 24/7 in VN, all hats at this point give me a head-ache immediately. But in lieu.. I will wear my aviators sun-glasses I picked up on one of those dial 1-800 numbers late at night for a very bargain price.
Regards for the day, sir..
Sarge..
Uh oh. Looks like somebody tried on a shoe ... and it fit.
You could probably squeeze a another 100 out of your assumption about the shoe fitting, Boss. Regardless if it did or not... I look at it as I really don't give a crap one way or other as that would be my personal business and none of yours. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Now... finally.. off to retrieve glue in my rusiting pick-up I just mentioned to Lataxe.
Have a wonderful day, sir...
Edited 1/31/2008 1:55 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge;
Have we been enjoying a few coctails here or are you serious?
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Haven't heard much that would set off my alarm for being serious, TT. I see discussions of this nature kind of the same way I see Clinton-Obama in debate as serious. Word jockey to see who can get under who's skin the most. :>)
As of today.. there have been 3942 American deaths in Iraq with many more counting allies. Now, that's serious to me... not a discussion where everyone with an already formed opinion going in is trying to persuade someone else that their theory is closer to being correct.
If I had to compare it to something else.. much like drunks at a party. Everyone is talking at the same time not saying anything of major significance. But.. the talker envisions what he or she is saying as very important and believes everyone else is listening to them.
The resulting bottom line is we turn out the lights as the party is over! The next morning.. nobody has a clue what they said, much less what someone else said. But.. but.. there's always's the next party where everyone gets together.. gets soused and we do the same old things again.
So.. do I consider anything that contains 200 post and still rolling over the "definition of "fine" a serious discussion. Probably not today and a good chance, not tomorrow either.
Going outside and belching out a big ole southern.. H*ll Yeah just might be as appropriate though not necessarily medicinal. And BTW.. I haven't drank in about 21 years with the exception of a beer every now and then.
"Now would be a good time to catch that "then".... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Edited 1/31/2008 9:12 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Your a good man.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
More power to you!I agree with Bosscrank's response - funniest post seen in a while - such a nice change from the uptight insult slinging of the normanites....now lets talk about something else
Well, I thought I explained that in my closing comment. Sorry about all the facts too.
Don't you think that your whole approach to this is a little insulting? Your elitist position, your obstinance,and the way you create a reality that suits your position and simply ingnores anything that contradicts that fabricated reality. That insults this community.
Frank
Amen! And I'm sure you have noticed that Frank Klausz's business, Frank's Cabinet Shop. Even Frank Klausz calls himself a cabinetmaker, not a "Fine" woodworker. But he is!!! As far as I'm concerned Frank is a jewel in the furniture world. I have watched him hand cut dovetails so fast that I couldn't even layout the pins before he is done!
Bruce
Bruce,
I'm in NJ and have always meant to get to Frank's and take one of his classes.
Another tidbit... Fine Woodworking was almost called something like Cabinetmaker's Journal. I read that in an article in the 25th anniversary edition that chronicled the start of the magazine in the 70's.
Frank
I assume you are aware that the furnituremakers of "old" called themselves 'cabinetmakers' - Goddard, Townsend, et al.
Today, unfortunately, that term seems to denote those who build bulk casegoods out of plywood and has forced the use, by some, of the more unwieldy moniker "furnituremaker." My spell checker chokes on this one every time. I need to add it to my word processor's dictionary.
While Frank Klausz may very well have an everyman quality about him, his use of the term "cabinet shop" or "cabinetmaker" I'm sure is done in the best tradition of that term and doesn't imply that he does less than the highest quality work, comes cheaply, and all the other connotations you may be thinking of.
Boss
I could not agree with you more!
Frank
Norm's been doing it a long time and makes a pretty good livin at it as well. I've bought several of his plans which are very nice. Don't know what you call "FINE", but he does some nice work. I think you got a case of Tool envy goin there partner! Cheerio!
BTW here is a link to one of his projects I still plan to do! sure looks pretty fine to me.
http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct.php?0509
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Without all the hobbyist woodworkers who tinker in their garages on weekends and late nights, do you have any idea how much tools would cost. You can thank Norm for the low prices of cabinet saws, jointers, and the rest. Without all the hobbyists, companies like Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen wouldn't even exist. You can thank Norm for that, too.
To the OP: ha ha ha. How's the view from up there...........?
Jeff
What a strange argument - why would hobbyists working at the level Norm demonstrates be at all interested in high quality hand tools?And if they only have Norm as an example to follow how will their work or ambition ever rise to a point where the use of such tools becomes of interest ----- Fine Woodworking used to be that inspiration and my fear is that it is drifting away to become just another diy magazine
Chuckie
It doesn't matter why the kids get into the pool, as long as they jump in. Many woodworkers inspired by simply seeing it done on tv get involved in the craft. It's up to the individual as to what level they take it to. You're talent level is not limited by the individual who inspires you to enter the craft. But, once you're in, you will determine on your own whether or not to continue, and to what level you wish to take it.
How many professional woodworkers had fathers in the trade. I didn't. My dad was an engineer, and had a rusty old saw and a blue and red block plane in the garage. That was it. For me, seeing woodworking shows on tv peaked my interest enough to get involved. I'm sure it was the same for many, many others.
Besides, I can't even imagine how difficult it must be trying to jam 8 to 12 hours of woodworking into a 1/2 hour show.
Finally, and so you know, I've spoken to executives from various tool companies that have stated time and again how much of an impact "The New Yankee Workshop" has had on tool sales over the past 20 plus years. Without it, the demand for power tools for woodworking would be quite different, and so would the pricing structure. I for one, am pleased that I didn't have to pay $15K for my cabinet saw.
Jeff
Norm's work has its place maybe - but are you really comparing his reproduction piece to the classic that inspired it? They look the same maybe - but that's as far as it goes ---- just try the fit of a drawer on the two pieces to see what I am really getting at....If everybody follows Norm's construction and finishing methods and never looks to go beyond and improve where will the classic pieces be for the Norm's of future generations to copy?
"Norm's work has its place maybe - but are you really comparing his reproduction piece to the classic that inspired it? They look the same maybe - but that's as far as it goes ---- just try the fit of a drawer on the two pieces to see what I am really getting at....
If everybody follows Norm's construction and finishing methods and never looks to go beyond and improve where will the classic pieces be for the Norm's of future generations to copy?"
Oh, so now it's Fine Original Woodworking? Which is it? And for that matter, what is truly original? I guess a tree limb or log is the only true Fine wood work since all works derived from the original. Please folks don't go out in the rain without an umbrella, some of you would drown!
BTW, there is a gentleman here on Knots (names escapes me at the moment) that does federal period pieces that are some of the finest woodworking I have ever seen, but in your eyes since he did not do the original, he would not be considered a fine woodworker, give me a break.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 1/29/2008 2:50 pm by bones
bones,
Rob Millard
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks. I could not remember the name, but what he produces is spectacular.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Your argument is so dumb - original is not the issue - quality of construction and what is appropriate to include in FWW is.
"Your argument is so dumb"
Now there's intelectual superiority! I feel like I'm back at recess at school. Next are you going to call me 4-eyes?
- original is not the issue -
You are the one that asked how can you compare a reproduction to the original that inspired it?
quality of construction and what is appropriate to include in FWW is.
You question his methods and construction technique and something about the ability of a drawer to close, but have you tested one of Norm's pieces or are you making some assumptions? The real test only time will tell. I bet his pieces will be around for a long time. This discussion will not be.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
And where are the pictures of your work? Earth shattering no doubt, But regardless of your work VS norm VS the next guy, who cares if you dont like it, dont buy it then but dont come around as the newbie complaining
I thought name calling was frowned on in these parts?You jump to judgement very hastily ----- so I am new on the forum - what does that prove --- that anything I might say has no weight? What is wrong with defending the reputation that a FINE magazine has spent years building upAs my dad used to say 'Open your mouth a little wider - you can get both feet in'
Bummer, imagine all the non-Norm stuff you will miss.
I guess I can still log on and check out the reader's gallery - cheaper than paying the UK cover price for a product that seems to be losing its way!
Two guys walk into a pub. You are one and Norm is the other. Who do I buy a pint for? Not the sourpuss that looks as though he's holding a chisel in his butt. I'll share one with the chap who has a genuine smile that seems unassuming and very pleasant.
We all experience buyer's remorse for varying reasons. You seem to be having an attack now.
I suggest you turn off the teley, donate your magazine to the library and forget the fact that you are missing out of some interesting, enlightening, and sometimes intense exchanges with many wonderful and talented people who are willing to share their knowledge and experiences with those of us just beginning in this wonderful endeavor.
You might even try to start your own publishing venture.
Flannel to the people !! ;0)
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Edited 1/29/2008 3:08 am by oldbeachbum
I see tpjay and Norm walking into a pub. They are immediately spotted by Lataxe who buys them several ales and tries to provoke a fight about the essentials of fine woodworking. Having succeeded, he sits back and has afew himself while watching the entertainment.
Wishing I was there,
Neil
Neil,
Your imagination, running riot, proposes: "....spotted by Lataxe who buys them several ales and tries to provoke a fight....."
Then Sarge comes in and bangs all our heads together, followed by Derek who gives counselling to us all before signing the commital papers.
Then Ray, who has a part time job as the landlord, barrs the lot of us as the hargey-bargey has put off the other customers, what with the shouting, flick-chisels and zip-planes.
Finally the Boss comes in and secures a contract with the brewery to replace all the broken chairs with ormolou ball&clawers, at only $13, 560 each.
Lataxe, agent-provocateur
Lataxe,
Goodness Gracious Great Balls Afire!
Can I provide the music!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Nothing as bitter in my post as you display in your own......And I thought name calling was frowned upon.I've said this to another respondent - but it bears repeating ---- surely there are plenty of magazines to encourage the beginner in the same manner that Norm does ----- but where do those new guys go when they want to see what they can aspire too?Much as we might like to we can't all make it to the School of the Redwoods however much we might like to......so the next best thing is a magazine of the calibre of Fine Woodworking hence my protest - there is not another like it that I know of
Fine.
You have your opinion and I have mine. It is all perception, n'est pas?
Your original post struck me as being elitist and I tend to 'call them as I see them'.
If you intended to be provocative you have succeeded. I shall return to hiding in the darkness to steal a peek at our now pedestrian publication.
Writing and woodworking are fraught with sharp edges. Be mindful of them.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Try a drawer in a craftsman (can I use that word without upsetting some other thin skinned individual?)made chest of drawers and one made using the DIY techniques that Norm generally goes for ---- then tell me the only difference is in the perception.
The old saying was "There's more than one way to skin a cat." also applies to everything else we do, including woodworking. There is always more than one way to get the job done. Norm is a great inspiration to woodworkers, new and old. He shows you that even if you are not the most experienced woodworker that by applying reason and a modicum of skill you can produce furniture that YOU are proud of. Is Norm's method always my preferred method? No, it isn't. But Norm's methods do produce workable furniture. I do own 3 nail guns and do occasionally use them to fasten boards where they will not be visible in the finished product. I worked at Lane Furniture in Altivasta, Virginia many years ago and I was amazed at the number of craftsman on the production line that could take a hammer and finishing nail and tack a piece of trim in place, while it was moving on a wood slat conveyor, set the nail, apply putty, and NEVER leave a hammer mark. Our nail guns today just allow us to do the same job quicker and easier.
I try to do things in a way that produces a quality finished product. I have a great power tool selection, and I also have several fine Lie-Nielsen and Veritas hand planes and a great set of Ray Isles chisels. I use them together to produce fine quality, IMHO, furniture in as efficient a manner as I desire.
I guess woodworking is like other skills; there is Fine, Finer, and Finest. Norm is a skilled woodworker and carpenter and his work falls in between the extremes of the above 3F's. Just because Norm started as a carpenter does mean that he only has the skills to be a rough carpenter. After all, most of us are not full time woodworkers, we have a day job, and that does not automatically diminish our skills at woodworking.
We need the Norm's to get people interested in woodworking, not to criticize him for doing woodworking his way.
I agree with all you say - but do we need Norm in THIS magazine - it was one of a kind in promoting excellence in craftsmanship - somewhere to go when you wanted to travel beyond what Norm can offer
I think Norm has paid his dues to be called a woodworker, and I think that some of his projects are "fine." Have you seen his highboy? I like to think that everything that I create is "Fine" woodworking, but to others on this forum it probably isn't. A portion of my time is spent making pens on my lathes. My wife and family think they are great and "Fine". I have the feeling that to most on this forum pen making is not fine woodworking. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, it doesn't matter. Norm is and has been an inspiration to many, and as far as I am concerned he can be in Fine Woodworking magazine when the editors want him to be.
I am not always 100% satisfied with the magazine content, but I will not complain about Norm in an occasional article.
And that is just my 2 cents worth.
Bruce
I remember back in the 90's FWW did an article on Norm and got about the same response that they are getting now. One has to remember that a lot of woodworkers did not have the opportunity to learn from an individual but from reading books and in my case watching PBS to get involved with a hobby that I like. I have made several of Norm's projects and if I had to do things over I would have chose better wood for some of the projects. As we get older we learn from our mistakes and in most cases the projects get more complicated and use different techniques. My wife is the only one I have to please and before I start to finish a project "Eagle Eyes" looks it over and finds the areas that need more attention. Not only can Norm build the house he can furnish the interior rooms. I have no problem with FWW doing articles on Norm and look forward to the next one they do!!!!!
I agree 100% with your comments. Myself, my family, and the occasional customer of mine, have the only opinions of my work that I take to heart. I hate to get into these discussions but sometimes I can't seem to keep my mouth... or keyboard, quiet.
Bruce
""I hate to get into these discussions but sometimes I can't seem to keep my mouth... or keyboard, quiet.""
agree........................b-b-b-but this keyboard k-k-k-keeps q-q-q-quivering...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
I too like the look of a perfectly executed dovetail, but at the same time, my kitchen is about 15 years past due for an upgrade.
And maybe I missed something, but to me, "top rate DIY" is kind of the point.
I certainly wouldn't mind another Norm article or two in the future. Perhaps on the perfect bathroom?
Josh.
I like Norm for what he has done for the business of woodworking. And I also think he is a good man . But as far as Fine Woodworker , that is streching it and I am sure he will agree , he is not a stupid man . His title is master carpenter, whatever that is .
He has brought many people into this as a hobby , and for that I am greatful, these are the people that sign up for my classes.
The editors are trying to sell more magazines , simple business . While you can argue his skills ,you can not deny his appeal and reconigtion to the public .
http://www.michaelfoscone.com
<<I certainly wouldn't mind another Norm article or two in the future. Perhaps on the perfect bathroom?>>If the perfect bathroom is your interest, then you would probably benefit more from a Rich Trethewey article.Mike
Hey thanks Mike. Unless I can find a good distraction, I'm probably going to be out of the shop this weekend with a sledgehammer in my bathroom. I've been doing a lot of research on what I want to put in its place, but Rich sure has some innovative stuff I haven't seen before.
Josh.
What is the name of the channel thats sends the new yankee workshop. I live in Sweden and perhaps that channel is offered here.
eric,
I see it on the DIY channel each night @ 8:30 EST.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Norm's woodworking looks mighty fine to me. If people don't like it they don't have to watch him or read about him, but for me Norm's a good example.
That's a new one on me, that for your first posting you have to pause respectfully at the threshold, take off your cap, touch your forelock, and utter some anodyne cliche to appease the poohbahs within. Since when did a public forum become a private club?
Jim
I won't pass judgement on Norm's wood-work as I have never seen Norm's wood-work nor Norm's TV show. I hear much about Norm and I'm sure Norm is making very regular deposits at his local bank. Good for Norm.
I viewed Pollaro's site and indeed it appears that he does some extremely "fine work-working" and his company is indeed geared toward producing such articles to cater to the affluent and ruthless who demand "fine" work and pieces in exchange for a few bread crumb placed in their hands. And I am sure that he could produce the work of the primitive sort suggested with a hand tied behind his back and blind-folded. Good for Frank.
But.. the output that is purposely done to draw attention to the affluent reminds me in every manner of that style of work that I first viewed as an eight year old child after being ask to visit the home of several class-mates in school that had affluent parents.
I was asked in those two cases to take my shoes off as I entered in the rear of the home to avoid possible stain to the carpet which few had in those days. I was instructed to walk in the center of halls and not to go within a foot of pieces in the main living area to avoid a childs natural clumsiness. That was to avoid and accidental bump into pieces that were very expensive.
We were allowed to peak into the formal living room (there were such things in those days) at the even "finer" collection of pieces that adorned that "sacred" room and used to influence the other affluent that might come as special guest. That did not include my family BTW, I was only invited because their son or daughter actually liked me regardless of my lower social status... and for no other reason that has been revealed to me latter in life.
What I saw appeared to be some very fine work indeed. At least what I could see partially hidden underneath the clear plastic tarps that were used to protect if from dust, etc. So.. at that point of life I was simply told how expensive it was and was left to wonder if it would actually be comfortable to use as actually touching or sitting were not on the agenda.
It was not until latter in life that I actually got to touch and use the "fine" work of "fine" craftsman. I now understand why I was told it extremely expensive and was not allowed to actually use it. It proved IMO, to be not that comfortable in practical use and frankly... a literal pain in the arse.
So... even though beautiful as it is too me... I have no personal use for it as my home is not a museum and I have no one I want to influence into thinking that what money can buy is what makes the world go round.
I will forget a small portion of what I said here in about 20 seconds. In 20 minutes, I will have forgot even more. In 20 hours it will be nothing more than a faint recollection of a conversation that won't matter at all to me in the next 20 hours... much less 20 years...
Sarge..
Edited 1/29/2008 12:52 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Every piece I build in my modest garage shop is "fine" to my wife.
That's all that matters to me.
I guess the world would be a wonderful place if a guy could spend three months building a masterpiece and sell it to somebody for a few hundred bucks.I love rich people. Just love 'em. When I sell something they seem to be the only ones buying.
I don't love rich people.. nor despise them. I have no dependency on them if I could define who they are. Who is rich? Where is the line drawn that defines... with one more dollar you step into that category?
But I do love people in general. If I happened upon someone with a sucking chest wound, I would not make them show me a copy of last years W-2 form before I administered or refused aid. And I understand that if you spend that kind of time you cannot charge a small fee. So.. without a source for the output, you are out of business if you still chose to make it. So.. is it you love them or just depend on them?
The finest looking and designed chair I ever saw wasn't as comfortable as the butt busters you find at a physician's office, IMO. The style suggest "show-piece" and nothing more to me as it it quite beautiful in a museum, but if I personally placed a piece at my own home the temperature would probably drop suggesting something cold has entered the room.
Norm and "fine" has no significance for me one way or the other. Again.. I have never seen one piece of Norm's work and probably never will. Regardless.. the wheels will keep on rolling and the clock will continue to click. That's reality and facing the challenge of reality day to day is something that I would categorize as a form of love for me personally.
Eric,
New Yankee Workshop is offered on PBS, the Public Broadcasting System. Older episodes are then bought and rebroadcast on DIY, the Do-It-Yourself Network. Hope you can get one or the other.>>What is the name of the channel thats sends the new yankee workshop. I live in Sweden and perhaps that channel is offered here.<<
I see you are taking a rough time here from many for stating the obvious: screwed together plywood boxes and bisquited face frames are not exactly the first things that come to anyone's mind when one mentions "fine" woodworking. Don't it let it sour you on Knots.
For me, "fine" happens when actual creativity and the craftsman's hand (i.e., decisions and application thereof in midst of the creative process) work together to create something lasting with a distinctive character. The style might be anywhere from primitive to baroque, and the subject might be a bowl, a boat, or a chair, irt really doesn't matter. But plywood boxes frankly don't leave much room for the creative hand. Pratical? sturdy? sure, but not often "fine." Perhaps Norm could do an article about how to make cabinet doors, moldings, etc. that actually make the plywood boxes things of beauty? Instead, we got an article on carpentry.
I'm a newcomer to woodworking - as mostly a direct result of NYW which I have watched regularly since the late 80s. I think a lot of the complaints deal with his use of a nail gun as opposed to other ways to attach pieces. But has anyone considered that there might be a reason for him to do that? Remember it is a business for him primarily though also a hobby. The NYW makes what, 13 shows per season? - something in that neighborhood. And he always has a prototype where he made his mistakes and did his learning. From there he makes the production piece on the show - and all this must be done from show taping to show taping. In between he goes off to work on TOH which means sometimes flying across the country and we don't know the other appointments he might have. With such a schedule, how would he be able to do more traditional glueups which take hours to set? Popping a few brads holds stuff in place while the glue dries.
Not only that, but his show is one of the few outlets for manufacturers to hawk their gear and help support the costs of the show. So, of course, he's going to use their machinery. Then too, are those who say he depends on that machinery too much and does very little by hand. The answer, I think, goes back to the time issue. How long would it take, for instance, to plane and joint say, 40BF of cherry (remember he makes 2 for each show) by hand compared to running it through a planer and jointer? But, there is no reason someone else has to do it his way ... many find great pleasure in dimensioning lumber by hand.
All he's doing is showing the viewer one way to construct a piece of furniture. There is no reason anyone is forced to use brads/staples when making their own version. Personally I prefer more traditional means, but that is my choice. I can still use his plans and simply adapt them to my desires. I don't think that makes him less of a craftsman by any means. And, as has been said, he's opened the door to a number of other DIY shows which together have contributed to bringing people to the hobby from all walks of life. Not many can say that.
Ken
You're quite right ... it is another way to create furniture ... it isn't FINE Woodworking.
I love threads like this one.
Loopy, completely bloody pointless, inane, mostly twaddle, piffle, etc, and they nearly always make for an interesting and amusing read.
I'm just hoping that with the speed the thread's attracting comments from some of the dodgy old lags that like to break wind around here, like me I guess, that I'll score a bullseye on post 100.
Apart from that I just want to say, er, well,.... nothing.
Toodle pip. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Bummer. Missed it. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Got it. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Shame on you Richard! You cheated! Posting 3 times in a row just to get the 100th...whats next.... toenailing the legs on to a table?
Rob
Richard,
Feel better?? I'll wake you when it gets close to 200.
Jeff
Congratulations for your persistence in reaching your goal of the "earth-shatttering" 100th post mile-stone. Job well done even though you did fail to carve "Sgain was here" on the wall to let all know that you passed through in such a timely manner.
Or then again... maybe you didn't forget. I will check the Knots rest-room stall walls for the tell-tale evidence as that would be the likely place to look. How could I have over-looked the obvious? ... :>)
Sarge..
Here we go, yet again.
This gets really tedious.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 1/30/2008 9:58 am by PeterDurand
Edited 1/30/2008 9:58 am by PeterDurand
I find your comments about Norm Abrams to be snobbish, conceited and grossly elitist. Although you're entitled to your opinion, I think the real shame is that it appears here.
FineWoodworking is everyone's magazine, from beginning woodworkers to those of us who for decades have been professional woodworkers, hand cutting more water-tight dovetails than perhaps even you can imagine. Maybe you don't, but I believe we all have something more to learn, and we all have something to teach. I continue to learn from Norm, as well as from Tage Frid, James Krenov and all the other fine woodworkers who take the time to write for the magazine.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Nothing of the kind - take the trouble to read other peoples posts - some of them seem to understand my position far better ---- yes fine woodworking is for everyone who cares to pay the cover price and they take from it what they need ---- the concern is that a valued publication that has for years brought us all examples of work of the highest level is losing its way --- a discussion that concerns the editors and that has been held in the pages of the magazine before --- to simply brand what I said as elitist or snobbish is simplistic and silly
As another charter subscriber, I too am amazed at how FWW has expanded to include "OK" woodworking". For those wondering about the heritage, just review the FWWs from the late 70's -- awesome! I was a beginner at that time, but was never looking for lower standards to match my skills. Just the opposite -- give me a vision to embrace. Plywood, screws and glue have a place in Fine HomeBuilding, not FWW! However, I will continue my subscription because there are some gems embedded here and there, and I just can't bring myself to break my full collection!
Be safe and God Bless!
If you boycott because of Norm, how have you accepted the annual tablesaw review? How can you accept the monthly article on why a sharp chisel is better than a dull one? How about the monthly "power tools are good, and handtools are too"? And Chris Glochnour's (spelling?) how to use a block plane, what is a shoulder plane, and cabinet scraper demonstrations?
Brother, if you truly object to anything less than FINE woodworking, you left about the time the magazine went to color. Every month they show a bit of everything. At times I agree with you, I can get this out of the counter guy at home depot, but every month there is also the project that is so far out of my league that I wouldn't even attempt it. I suspect that 99% of the readers fall into that category.
Tpjay;
Greetings. I just read through the entire thread; it appears that over the years you have increased your personal skills criteria to the point that it clearly differs with the skill level that FWW promotes. And that is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It strikes me that in this situation Norm fits into the teaching process of the magazine and you perhaps do not as a reader! On this point: generally the goal is to improve from a woodworker to an artisan. Artisans need different input than woodworkers.
Fine Woodworking, Norm this blog, regional teaching schools are all pillars to advance the skill.
You shouldn't be upset with the magazine, you should be delighted in your personal progress in the Craft!
Best,
Jim
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
While watching the television last night I came across a show on bombers and one segment dealt with World War 2 and the De Havilland Mosquito. It was being narrated by an older British gentlemen and he said at the time that aircraft was being constructed from wood because some of the strategic materials were in short supply at the time. During the narration he also stated that since a lot of the English furniture makers were out of work due to the war they were constructing the airplanes. I guess that since the Mosquito was not a table or chair that this could not be construed as fine woodworking. On of the parting words from this gentleman, as a Mosquito went flying by, there goes some of Brittian's finest furniture! Possibly the magazine that you would like to see should be named Fine Furniture. I for one would like to see Fine Woodworking do articles on fine woodworking whether it be aircraft, boats, cabinets, fishing rods and of course furniture.
And they used to.... a few articles on building lapstrake boats back in the day for example.
Refresh my memory, but I don't think anything like that has been done since the magazine went to a color format...
Subject
Article Title
Issue
Pages
Canoes
lapstrake Kevlar-Dacron, pictured
062
104
Clinker boats
See Boats: lapstrake.
Lapstrake Boatbuilding (Simmons)
reviewed
015
27
Manning, Sam
on lapstrake boatbuilding
037
90 (BW)
Sea Urchin
See Boats: lapstrake.
Simmons, Walter J.
Lapstrake Boatbuilding, reviewed
015
27
Viking ships
See also Boats: lapstrake.
Watts, Simon
on building lapstrake boats
036
54-56
Watts, Simon
on building lapstrake boats
037
82-89 (BW)
Boss do you really mean to pass those references off as an article of much value? A feature story in FWW? Come on.
The best value they had even in the day they were included was to prompt the curious reader to find the books(simmons books are great). If FWW wanted to show readers about some fascinating woodworking -- they would consider the name of the magazine again. Fine Woodworking not Fine Furniture. This might be a part of the frustration with readers expectations and some of the longtime readers wanting to broaden a bit??
Let's be realistic about expectations. If the magazine mission was to be a bit broader, they would have had some full length articles on a mother lode of incredible FINE WOODWORKING just down the road from their offices -- Mystic Seaport. John Gardner was the "James Krenov of the College of Small Wooden Boats" for many years of FWW publishing. I can not recall anything even acknowledging his work, writing or books. Get my point. The project AMISTAD was launched from Connecticut a few years back. The workmanship and wooden wonders was just spectacular. Nada.
I don't have an axe to grind with Norm and if I did I am wise enough to stay away from that subject after reading the feedback comments from the first time he was in the magazine. It got a little tight.
Recently, I talked to a couple of the guys from FWW about submitting articles for consideration that were non-furniture but had an application for furniture makers if they saw a way to incorporate it in their next project. To keep it short.. they went back to "we are a furniture oriented magazine" position and it might be interesting but..
They were generous with accolades and encouragement and they did not just come out and say a big fat NO. The suggestion I think I will try is submitting a technique tip for consideration. Maybe - just maybe someone on their end will see it and suggest going a little bigger. I can't argue with that-- I have to put the article/summary together and fire it off. The ball is in my court.
dan
The content in the early mags. stands on its own. I thought the Simon Watts articles were excellent. Have you read them?
Boss
I like the SW articles but Walter Simmons is my choice for great wooden boat building. I met Walter and he is just remarkable.
Simon could be great but I live on the East Coast and I get back to Maine most summers to do some woodworking. Situation thing.
FWW: Most of the stuff they are focused on is furniture. Their cut on fww is furniture. I respect that. On the other hand, I believe they are missing some incredible methods of work by ignoring other specialties.
Example: poured pewter or wire inlays. You can do some very nice stuff to furniture with these simple skills. I think I am going to do some stuff and photograph the process. I'd like to put the photos on Knots and take a few hits. We'll see.
Hey.. you never know. Have fun .. right?
dan
Regarding the focus on furniture... At least we don't have to read articles on 'sounding bowls'!
I wouldn't mind an occasional article on sounding bowls, as long as it was written by someone whose head wasn't so far up...in the clouds.
Then again, I suppose that's the only kind of person who would write about sounding bowls.
-Steve
I have to admit it, sounding bowls ain't my bag.
There obviously was a point in time when they didn't think like this. Lotsa articles in the early mag not strictly having to do with furniture.
Well it does say Fine Woodworking.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I see Norm's work and methods in action on satellite TV here in the UK and while it may be top rate DIY work it simply cannot be described as Fine Woodwork in any meaningful sense.
BS!..!!!!!
I for one would love to see a 'CLEAR' definition of what is 'FINE WOODWORKING'? I am sure the bench by John White and God Forbid! Pipe Clamps! Is NOT fine woodworking! I differ ALOT! Modern, Functional and Fine Woodworking as I see it!
18 Century? Hardly for me! Not that I do not like it.. Just that I would never make something in that style. I think it was made ONLY for the RICH FOLKS (THAT I AM NOT). I like a old 'Folk Art' chest or clay pot! Down to earth and 'Form fits function'....
I LOVE Salvador Dalí AND Norm.. William Shakespeare? I never understood what the heck he was saying!
I'd bet John White's wonderful bench would not fit into the 'purest' definition of 'Fine Woodworking'.. However, it is modern, uses sort of inexpensive materials and anybody can make it, and end up with a functional bench THAT WORKS! I'd call THAT FINE WOODWORKING!
So you know where I come from.. I cannot carve so 18't Century woodworking I cannot do! BUT, I have friends that could do the carving and I would do the rest and nobody would know the difference unless I told them I did that! I'd bet the old masters gave that HARD carving tasks to the HELPERS and just inspected the work! He had other things more pressing to do!
I AM NOT getting on your case!
I just wanted to say, from my point of view.. Some Woman or Man hands a pine box or a bird house to their mate and the maker receives a smile or sees a tear in the eye.. THAT IS FINE WOODWORKING!
Edited 2/1/2008 9:05 am by WillGeorge
Wow, you live in the UK and you think Norm Abrams represents fine woodworking? Your backyard is full of the real thing.
Walk into an old parish church and take a look around. Norm Abrams wouldn't even know how to get started.
London, per square mile, has more fine woodworking housed outside of a museum setting than any place on the face of the earth. Turn off your television.
Edited 2/1/2008 10:30 am ET by BossCrunk
Wow, you live in the UK and you think Norm Abrams represents fine woodworking? Your backyard is full of the real thing.GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I only lived in the UK as a baby...I live in the USA and I thougt you Brits were fiiends! Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..I had a Brit Nanny.. Florence was her name...I was born in 190??? something..... My Mom had a Brit friend that took care of me.. My mother was a drunk.. (I can be if I get really sad sometimes) My Brit Nanny... was my Mother!..... I never knew my real Mom.,. Althogh my mom was real... All I knew was her Brit friend..I LOVE THEM BOTH FOREVER! Florence more than Mom.. She loved me for what I was' Which was not alot at the time I would suppose!Sorry.. I hade to>> but how is this woodworking?
Richard
Wake up, it's almost your turn!
Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Nice timing. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Hah! Grabbed 201, from under your nose.
Take that, you Limey bloke.
Ray
Ray, I just wanted the debate to move along as fast as it's been doing. I knew that everyone was holding back out of respect, just waiting until I'd breached the magic 200 barrier for them which allows them to carry on.
I was feeling, 'oh so gracious' and thought I'd let you go for 201. It's got a much better ring to it than that slightly common 200.
Meanwhile, I need to get some rest. I've a shed load of 3/4" ply I need to turn into kitchen cabinets tomorrow. I think I might incorporate a little frou-frou'ness in them just to tart them up a bit. And perhaps some swaggy curtains on the front in a tasteful gingham check instead of doors, but definitely 3/4" thick backs. They need enough integral strength to hold up the house they're going into, ha, ha. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Just let the plywood tell you what it wants to be.
OOOOM y God give me strength
Ray
I think this one's dead, but just in case, I'll give you a nudge around 295 or so.
Jeff
Hi WillGerorge;For the life of me I don't understand you comments on Norm. Your a smart guy, your a regular poster, but that dig on Norm, well I am asking you explain it.When you do please think about the following:1. Norm does all the work himself- no assistants, no carpenter-associates on both the New Yankee Workshop and This Old House. So the guy you think is below your standards, does everything from building houses to building hi-boys. So where do you excel and Norm Poops out? Common WG, your slandering for the fun of it!2. Why do you judge Norm on his show? Do you really think that he is over his head in doing the TV show? I doubt it!WG, you need to come clean! Who else do you think is prissy.. and needs an attitude adjustment.........Norm could build the churches you spoke of and carve the figures at the entrance, in either marble or wood!Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
twotowers, we're not criticising Norm as a man, or Norm as a carpenter, or Norm as a television presenter, or Norm as anything other than a fine woodworker.
What Norm does is within the capabilities of any of us.
Fine Woodworkers are beyond that.
RonD;
I don't understand your point..............
Please reply..
Best
TTI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
My point is that, in my opinion, Norm isn't qualified to be in FINE Woodworking.
He brings no refinement to the art or craft of woodworking, and he doesn't represent an aspirational step beyond the capabilities of most of the readership.
His cabinetry might find him a place in Fine Homebuilding, but even there I think he'd be controversial. The rest of his stuff? Well, perhaps one of those television-based handyman or home improvement magazines would be more appropriate.
Ron;You said " Norm isn't qualified to be in FINE Woodworking".Ron, you aren't qualified to read FINE Woodworking.. you need to ask for forgiveness from the masses who learned their skills from Norm.Now I will "forgive you" because you know not sin you have committed.....Seriously, you have to find better informational material. This is like a third grader complaining that there is no algebra in the math course!Right?Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Ron,
You got to rethink the meaning of "Fine Woodwoorking" -it has changed.
Best,
JikmI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
He is more of a tool salesman these days. But so is FWW in the sales business. More and more power. How long would it take to purchase Norms workshop. His early programs were critizied often on the pages of FWW e.g. glue on sliding jpannels, wiping glue with sponge. I think he serves his masters well but you cannot stay in business without sponsors. I do think norm has gone way too far with the brad nailers and dovetailers and so on. I have to admit I get turned off with all the unnessary pandering to the tool manufacturers on Public TV. I think FWW is just bowing to his obvious financial sucess. Perhaps FWW of loyalty to the craft are numbered as well.
Sorry, I can see that you've forgotten more than I ever learned about martinis.
Dear tpjay,
After skimming through some 200 posts, I think I have the solution for you.
Give some thought to publishing a magazine titled:
"Journal of Tpjay's current Fine Woodworking Skill Level and Interests"
A 50 page color on glossy paper periodical that comes out every 2 months.
I am sure it will be a resounding commercial success.
Cheers,
Peter (with tongue firmly in cheek) ;-)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
It's quite funny how the trend has changed since the very first Norm thread here at Knot's so many years ago. A lot more "fors" then "against" this time around.I've always liked Norm and the show, but most have to agree that there really is a difference. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
tpjay I have been working with wood since I was 13 years old & have strived to become a craftsmen nota trades men but I respect both. personally in my work I preffer to obtain trees mill them my self ,construct peices from one tree using joiner & no fasteners or nail ,whitch I consider to be traditional joiner and I live for it. over those 27 years I have gained an HUGE RESPECT for both norm &even more for the fine woodworking mag /because regardless of what they methods they are instructing on they all do it very well . So maybe fine woodworking is simply showing deserved respect from one teacher to another? also for aguy who hates nails so much you sure keep trying to pound this one home . I mean sam maloof uses screws to fasten chair parts ,whitch drives me silly but I don"t want him kept out of the mag, doyou !
I think this is a very strange and disturbing conversation. The arrogance that exist in this is somewhat overwhelming. I can't speak for FWW, but tpjay, I would not bat an eye if you were no longer one of my subscribers.
As a new woodworker, I too have benifited from the basics of the craft from Norm and this basic level of interest has led me to the next level watching someone like David J. Marks who brings in woodworking talent and combines it with art.
I don't think Norm professes to be a "fine woodworker", but you have to admit he is a VERY successful one. Ask yourself this, when was the last time you produced your own TV show? I think he knows and understands that he is an initial inspiration for many people to start the trade, just like FWW is an inspiration for readers of all experience levels to try new things and techniques. If you are so far above the trade and have no room for the lack of quality that you see at FWW I would assume there are places for you to go, but I HIGHLY doubt you will be missed.
Enjoy the craft, and enjoy your personal ability. I'm glad that someone with Norm's talent isn't as arrogant as you appear to be. It is people like you who might have the "fine" ability that you deem Norm lacks, but the inability to do anything with it because you think you are better than everyone else.
Have fun, cut wood, use your mind and be as fine as YOUR ability allows you to be, even if it requires a nail gun :)
Bollocks
That's it?
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
"Turn out the lights, the parties over..
Time for all good things to come to an end...
Turn out the lights, the parties over..
We'll come back tomorrow night and do the same ole things again"....
And a good time was had by all.........
So... time for Sarge to wander back down to the shop for a "Saturday Night Special". Secret miter dovetails for base boards on a simple man's chest of drawers.
"Fine", it's not... but good enough to store socks, jockey shorts, greasy baseball caps and the like. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good night, Peter....
Sarge..
Edited 2/2/2008 9:57 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
For your first post that was a doozy, very well said. Welcome to knots.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Well said !!!!
I,ve read alot of what most people have written aout what you have posted,I,ve ben doing woodwork for over40 yrs.I leaned from my dad and pick some up on the way on my own.I,m not a professial woodworker as many other subsribers are probly not ether does this mean we are not good at what we do,that we dont do FINEwork? I do not watch any of Norms shows on TV becaause I don,t have time .The time I have is to build in my shop.Maybe thats what you need to do.Norm can come to my shop any time he will be welcome I,ve also seen his work in FWW and ather magazines.
FWW has help me learn more ,help me when I do,nt know how to put some thing together and enspired me.
SO TURN OFF THE TV AND GET to your shop and BUILD
Boss, is that you trying to make the Normites fit a certain profile?
"FWW has help me learn more ,help me when I do,nt know how to put some thing together and enspired me."
.....OK
Rob
I only have one question.
Who out there would say that in their own judgement, the cabinets that Norm built in the article are fine woodworking?
Rob
>Who out there would say that in their own judgement, the cabinets that Norm built in the article are fine woodworking?<I'd say no, they're not, unless you want to argue that fine woodworking is a state of mind, not the exposition of an uncommon thing. And that is, perhaps, a viable argument for some people. I mean, you could argue that "fine homebuilding" is half a state of mind/ methodology and half something tangible that you could put your hands on. Why not argue that "fine woodworking" is similar? Worth a passing thought, though I wouldn't care to develop that argument much, myself.I think it says more about FWW that they ran a lead article on Norm, than anything about Norm, or the 'Is Norm Fine Woodworking?' question. I'll bet the magazine wanted to generate the same sort of firestorm of controversy that it had back when they first ran a Norm article. Norm, himself, has made the rounds of all the major American woodworking magazines in the last several years. He's an iconic figure. I guess, these days, if you're a woodworking magazine, you need a Norm article to keep your bait in the water.Lastly, the comment about Richard and Norm was just a jest, a throwaway comment, an elbow to the ribs of the self-important, not much more. They are similar in that both make a living in woodworking by re-packaging the conventional wisdom and putting it out there for the consumption of others, but I realize, of course, that Richard has more design sensibility worked into his work than Norm ever dreamed of. To each his own. Horses for courses,...Have a good Superbowl Sunday.
Edited 2/3/2008 4:24 pm by EdHarrison
Ed,
You said..."I think it says more about FWW that they ran a lead article on Norm, than anything about Norm,"
I agree wholeheartedly. I think that the original poster agrees also. Some of the posters here are defending Norm when there is no need to. I like Norm, I sometimes watch Norm. I have even seen Norm do some really nice work. I don't believe that an article about him making kitchen cabinets is the ideal article for FWW to have in the magazine, much less feature on the cover. Unless of course the object is to sell magazines more than it is to advance the craft of woodworking. I believe one objective doesn't exclude the other. It seems that the management of FWW doesn't necessarily agree with me and that is fine. At this point in time it is still my favorite magazine and this website is far and away the best resource on the web that I have found. I hope that a year or two from now I can still make that statement.
Rob
Agree. As far as woodworking on TV, I've never watched a Norm show all the way through except for the router-table one. I've only watched maybe 2 of the Roy Underhill shows from the beginning to the end. Woodworking on TV just doesn't do it for me. After about 10 minutes the ADHD kicks in.
Now the videos, including some of the ones produced by Taunton on carving and chip carving and turning - that's a different story. I've watched those from beginning to end on my computer while taking notes.
MR. ED.
I think Norm is a fine wood worker, and I bet he has more talent than you do.He builds hi-boys and bedrooms - himself. Your criticize Norm as not being a "fine woodworker" - I would like to match your body of work to his to see who is the best.Parting shot: have you ever seen what Norm does technically when the cameras aren't rolling? Really? well than you really don't know .. do you?
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
twotowers, I get the impression you're just one of those irritating little urgers that just likes to pile post-on-post for the pleasure of seeing his own mis-spellings.
Use the search function, and take a look at your posts from around 2004. There was nothing about Norm, in fact you were all about Thos. Moser, and "artistic" woodwork.
Now, unless your tastes have changed dramatically, at least one of those positions is false.
Yep,
I am one of those irritations out there-. But what was your point? Can I ask you if you are also an irritating person? Perhaps we have something in common? Relax, this is just a form.
Best to you,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
I may have mistaken rondunn for another poster, I followed his advice and did a search on his posts.
Granted one cannot give too much weight to a prospero search but it appears the bulk of his posts were whining and asking for help with his perceived feeling of inadequacy of the format.
The other half were bitching about others posts. I am still waiting for a lucid answer to his defense of tinak, who has proven herself to be as useful as teats on a bull and as shrill as a police whistle.
He has as far as I can discern a total of 24 posts, all whining. Perhaps he was forced to log back on and start his counter afresh, his handle seems familiar to me and I have a fonder recollection than I do at the moment.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Thanks DG;
We all perhaps have a few clunker posts I know I do.
Mr. Ed. probably is a good guy, I guess I just hit his button, sorry Mr. ED.
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Ron;
Enjoyed your comments - looking forward to your kind reply!
Best,
Jim
(PS: while there were spelling error in the past, I can help you translate the errors if you need the help)I know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Opening shot: WTHI "Hi-boys"Closing Shot: Take up this argument with someone who cares about how much you think of Norm. The subject no longer interests me. The half-life on this discussion was about three posts for me. I'm an amateur, I only build stuff for the joy of it, I have a limited amount of time to learn and think about woodworking, and there's other stuff different from Norm Abrams stuff that I want to do.Questions? No. Good. Piece of advice, given that you know less than half of me: Mind your own business.Best, Ed
I would not discount amateur status, even the much ballyhooed krenov considers himself an amateur.
Don't begrudge us our entertaining squabbles.
Piece of advice: your lack of time is your problem, we are minding our own business by participating in it. Don't like it? Skip past it.
On a subject closer to your heart, were you able to find that issue with the linenfold carving article? After looking it up for you, I found myself engrossed it it once again. Fascinating how the various arts intermingle and a good carving requires some knowledge of the artist who works in two dimensions, fascinating stuff.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Yep found the article, but haven't read it yet. I don't understand the phrase, "Fascinating how the various arts intermingle and a good carving requires some knowledge of the artist who works in two dimensions, fascinating stuff." My knowledge of art is keyed around literature, where sometimes you really don't need to know much about the artist to appreciate the work - for example, to hear William Styron talk about his novel "Sophie's Choice" would probably just mess it up for you if you hadn't read it yet, especially back in the days when Styron used to drink a lot. Another example: reading Chekhov's stories, even through the blur of a translation, one can instantly recognize how good they are and how sharply the characters are drawn, without knowing much about Chekhov himself. A third example: the fact that Shakespeare's "Macbeth" always resonated with the Japanese and was usually the first and sometimes only play by Shakespeare taught in their public schools in the 20th century. One can't imagine that they would have much more than a cursory idea of Elizabethan England and Shakespeare himself (heck, they're still trying to come to grips with the horrifying revelation that Westerners don't soak in a tub in the evening as part of daily and necessary hygiene), but something in that play surely resonated as art with the way that they viewed the world.But I'll read the article later and see what I think. Maybe woodworking and carving is different - in other words, I'm not only selling the dimensions and appearance of this thing existing in space, I'm also selling the story behind its inspiration and the spirit that motivated me to create it, as well. A discussion for another time, maybe.
I can't speak as to the selling of the work, I was referring to the interplay of light and shadow upon the work and how it tricks our brain into perceiving more dimensions than are truly represented.
Of course this could merely be my untrained eyes playing tricks on me, but I must say it was a very pleasurable trick.
I am merely the purveyor of volume made goods crafted with the benefits of machines, but do enjoy looking at and aspiring to the work of the craftsman.
My thanks again for reminding me of the beauty of the melding of art and woodwork.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
I look forward to that discussion.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Ya but I like less than half of you, half as much as you deserve!And I am an optimist.
:)
Best,
Jim
I know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hello all,
Hilarious comments on Norm! The blue ribbon goes to oldbeachbum:
"chisel in the butt" and "flannel to the people".
I'm a beginning woodworker, and have just finished a bedside table with dovetails and mortises (in walnut). I finished it with shellac and wax. It turned out not exactly perfect, but a good first try. On the other hand, I have made two case pieces for my teenage daughter. No one likes to painstakingly work on "heirloom" furniture, just to see a teenager sit a glass on top and slam the frame and panel doors. For those, I used ply, pocket holes, and polyurethane. Norm's kitchen cabinets looked great: and certainly good enough to have homemade red sauce spilled on.
rabbet
Yes and I can't wait to see his plywood highboy! Wonder if the drawers are lined with red plaid flannel?
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Rabbet,
Thanks for the kind words.
You are now the proud recipient of the St. Norm Award. You may print one suitable for framing provided you use MDF with biscuited mitres. ;0)
TP's on his own.
bum
rimshot here please
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Edited 2/6/2008 2:43 pm by oldbeachbum
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