Maybe the lady just means that she wants things that the maker was proud of enough to sign?
And maybe to the guy who said the rocker looked good enough to fetch $100, a $100 is a lot of money?
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Wineman,
Interesting discussion.
Here's my take on it for whatever it's worth, probably not much.
I could give a rats pitoot what anyone thinks except the customer. I take cunstructive criticism with the best, and often do. In my case the customer is isually my wife and if she like my work that's all that matters to me.
If you are the former President of the U.S. and your work is crap, so what. If your a former pole climber and you and yur customer like your work, what's to worry. If on the other hand your a professional woodworker, had 20 years of training coupled with 30 years of experience and your work is crap, maybe you should have considered another line of work.
What does all this drivel mean you might say? If you and your customers like your work that's all that matters. As for the person who offered you $100 for your Maloof rocking chair, what does he/she know about rats pitoots?
And the signing thing, always sign your work. Who knows, you might be famous some day! Just have fun and be safe.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/25/2008 3:10 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
So how do you sign your work. I've been wanting to do so as well, mostly for fun, but I don't want to ruin the piece.
One way to sign your work is to have a branding iron made to your specification, and use that to brand the work in a location that is not generally visible when the item is on display. Tool vendors sell these branding irons, among others, Lee Valley is one. There are likely other ways to sign your work, but this is one I like and believe has a lot of history to it.http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32191&cat=1,43456,43462
A. I sign my work in an inconspicuous place. I bought one of those electric signature burners that says "Handcrafted with pride by Jerry Frost". Then, using a fine-point, indelible marker, I initial it and put the month and year it was completed.I hope my great grandkids will find it inspirational - or something.B. A few years back I tore a tendon in my forearm playing tennis - in a cast for 6 weeks after surgery. As I couldn't work in the shop, and I'm retired, I signed up for a small writing group at the Library. One of my submissions was on the step-by-step process of building my "Arch Table". Everyone in the group was amazed at how much time and effort was involved in creating a piece of furniture. People just don't understand. They think in terms of going to the "House of ***" and buying schlock for $250.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Pedro,
I believe it was/is Christian Becksvoort who mortises a silver dollar into his pieces in an obscure place out of sight. If I were to adopt his method, all things considered, I'd probably mortise in a penny! J
I used to woodburn my initials and date in an obscure place and now that I've become an accomplished carver them and a date. I might even mortise in a penny too!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Wine, I think Bob has nailed it, but I understand your feelings. I think you should take a break and do something different. It's all in the mind.Excellent advice which I never apply to myself (;)
Bear in mind that Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer.
philip,
Perhaps the Winemane had a bad day in the woodshop and has some shavings in his knickers. If it were me, I'd shut down, pour a few of my favorite libation, sit up on the bench and take pride in all that I've got. Maybe put on some music.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Peanut farmer and a nuclear engineer, a helluva helluva helluva helluva helluva nuclear engineer.
Chris
---
Chris Scholz
Atlanta, GA
Galoot-Tools
Hi Chris;
A slight correction to your "description" of JC: He was a peanut farmer & nu-q-ler engineer. Quite a difference from the mundane nuclear variety.
Ken Mosley
That is new to me- whowuddathought that?Philip Marcou
JC in his shop, from FWW #46 by Jim Cummins:
View Image
View Imageforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I remember when Jimmy Carter retired. His friends and staff pitched in to build him
a woodworking shop at his home in Plains, Ga. I still don't understand why.
Mark in WBGV
Edited 1/26/2008 8:37 pm ET by MarkTaylor
Coming to the thread a bit late, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Andy Rooney's woodworking is much better, in my opinion.
Lee
Lee, I didn't know there was a "fuss." Was just responding to Philip "I didn't know that" post. Not even sure what it was he didn't know, but figured I could fill in one gap anyway, LOL. I love Jimmy Carter -- a man who is extreeeeeeemly intelligent, and who also truly cares about both people as individuals, and the people of this nation and others. The fact that he tries his hand at woodworking just makes him that much better a man, IMHO.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Agreed, and a man willing to walk into the lions den so to speak rather than retreat into an "undisclosed locaton" has my respect.
He also makes the point that our elections don't meet international standards for accuracy and transparency, a sore point with me.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Hi Jamie, I agree. I have always had a great deal of respect for President Carter. Not just a highly intelligent man who honestly cares about his fellow human beings but is a truly nice person.
I have to be honest and say I don't think he will be remembered as a great President, but will absolutely be remembered as a great human being.
I wish he hadn't turned down the Chief Justice position at the U.S. Supreme court. He would have been able to do so much.But I understand he has his priorities set straight. He is certainly living his life to the fullest and we are all the beneficiaries.
I would love to get a good copy of that photo you posted from the FWW article and somehow get it signed. I would put it right up there with Norm and Andy Rooney!
Later, Brian
I do not know what the criteria for being judged a great president would be, but think that Americas loss has been the worlds gain. The scope of unselfish commitment to peace allied to outstanding integrity and regard for others make for a unique individual who will not be forgotten.
This would be the same Jimmy Carter that gave away the nuclear farm to the North Koreans and stuck <!----><!----><!---->Clinton<!----><!----> with the bill right? He has been a disaster for the <!----><!---->US<!----><!---->. His “humanitarian” work has been at the expense of <!----><!---->US<!----><!----> sovereignty every chance he gets. I’m personally ashamed that he served in the same Navy I did. The man was a failure as president and is no better as an ex-president.
Nap,
I enjoy your posts immensely; I show them to my friends and they enjoy them too. More, more!
Lataxe, a fan of American comics everywhere.
Napie, I am wholly unqualified to judge political views of any country and thus do not comment. I do not like our use of "sovereignty" meaning supreme dominion even though we have a sovereign, but suppose the alternatives of "ruling despots" or "empire builders imposing puppet regimes in place of the home grown variety " does sound clumsy.
Our respective leaders seem to be born bedfellows, we just have to hope an expression does not become a fact. We would have a double impeachment.
The man was a failure as president
Agree
and is no better as an ex-president.
Disagree
At least he hasn't devoted his life to getting rich by making $$ giving speeches, like Clinton, and others. Even if he has failed to bring peace to the world, he has made the attempt and for that he deserves some respect.
Agreed.
I did not know that Jimmy Carter had served in the Navy on nuclear submarines-presumably on the engineering side.
Mark Taylor says he can't understand why the staff at the Whitehouse gave him lots of woodwork kit- I would say they did that because they liked him.
Also interesting to note that the Whitehouse has , or had, a fully equipped woodwork shop.I presume Bill C was distracted from getting in there.Philip Marcou
As you probably know, Jimmy Carter teaches Sunday school at the Baptist church in Plains, GA when he is in town. A lot of tourists show up and the Carters pose for pictures after service is over.
A person came into my office telling about going to Plains one July hoping to hear President Carter teach. They got into town Saturday evening and were riding around looking at the town and searching for a place to eat. They were amazed at how small the town was and said there wasn't much happening that evening--just one old geezer mowing his grass.
The next day at church, they were told where the Carters live and realized the old geezer push mowing the grass was the President.
with occasional Playboy induced lust in his heart.
T.Z.
Bear in mind that Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer.
That's true. He was also trained as an engineer at the Naval Academy. So should either one of these past experiences have a direct bearing on what a person designs or builds? I don't know?? Hope not. I can't connect milking cows to carving shells.
I have seen guys build stuff that is very detailed, very time consuming construction methods and the results are certainly impressive to my eye. In many cases, when I talk with the builder I hear a hint of "wish I had done that instead" on the project. Yep- I'm talking about myself too. Its always something. In my case it seems to push me to the next project and hopefully a better result.
On the other hand, I have met guys building childrens toys that are rough to my eye. Talking to some of the builders I found they are just as happy as you can imagine. They seem happier with their plywood tool box than I am with my crotch walnut desk and bookcase??
After 30 years of building, I am starting to admire these happy guys and I wonder about my own pursuits. I have narrowed down the stuff I am building in my free time to projects I can look at and safely conclude: yea that looks like fun and I'm not getting wrapped around the axle while I'm building it.
Bottomline: it just makes sense to stop or take a break if you are not enjoying yourself.
dan
He still is & has the mind to go along with it!!The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
Man, that was close! Good thing you didn't say biscuits or using a Domino. Now you just teed off Mr. Kreg and his followers.
Aint this fun!? By the way, do you charge extra for dovetails? :-) Have a GREAT weekend!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
biskeets sure is purty
http://www.angelich.com/music/dbanjo0.mp3
What woodworkers are you speaking of?
It is a tough trade, no doubt. Especially now.
One thing about people that do woodworking as a "second life" is that they made their fortune's already. Not having to maintain a lifestyle with one's craft certainly frees up the time pressure on workpieces. Much easier to build a portfolio.
Maybe the only thing I might have said to the $100 chair person is ask them how long they thought it takes to build the rocker. Most folks have no clue, think it takes an afternoon. I'm not suggesting continuing with those people to have a conflict but it does put the time equation out there for them to consider.
It can be frustrating but we are the one's that have chosen this trade, even if it feels like it has chosen us. I have a hard time imagining doing anything else for a living.
Wine,
Outside of us woodworkers and the rich folks that can afford Sam Maloof pieces there's damn few people that ever heard of Sam and none of them live on a planet that includes $25,000 rocking chairs with a 3 year waiting list from a guy that's 97 years old. Sooner or later someone will come along and know what their looking at and then you'll get the regonition you deserve.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Winemane, I understand where you're coming from. I get people all the time that see a dresser a Sofa Express for $450 and ask me if I could make it for less. I tell them the wood alone would cost $450 and then they walk away.
Your old man with the maloof rocker, don't dispair or consider him the norm. I read in the WoodShop News a few years back an article about a chairmaker. He made Sam Maloof inspired rockers and tried selling them at shows for $1800 but no one would buy them. So one day on a whim, he raised his price to $4500 and he sold three chairs. He's had a backorder since. Some things just have their own price regardless of what you think it should be.
Edited 1/25/2008 4:54 pm ET by mvflaim
mv,
Just read the recent study about the wine drinkers who enjoyed the "25$" wine a lot more than the "5$" variety, even tho they actually came from the same bottle. Brain scans showed they really did experience more pleasure drinking what they were told was more expensive wine.
It is fascinating to me consider how the same principle may apply to one's pricing structure. However, complicating that is my personal experience of having clients tell me, "Oh, I thought about calling you, but I figured you were too busy/ wouldn't be interested in doing this job." If you have the reputation of being the 25$ wine and your customer base really want a 15$ bottle, what then?
Of course, the study subjects were given the wine to sample...
I think all of us eventually have the experience of hearing our work is as good as the factory's. And if you do shows, you'll hear "Gaw, $ 1500 for that? I think I'll go into the furniture bidness." A colleague's wife used to reply, "Just 'cause you can't afford it, doesn't mean it's expensive."
Ray
It is sad to live in a time when merchants are held in the highest regard while craftsmen compete with mass produced plastic garbage.
Hi Ray,
It's all marketing. People's perception of price and quality. Look at Thos Moser. He's has credenzas for sale for $7500 in his catalog that I would do a back flip over if I could get $3500 for the same thing. When commanding those types of prices, your business has to look just as professional as the furniture you produce ie; nice catalog with sharp pictures of the product, great customer service, professional looking website, focused target marketing etc... The buyer has to feel the quality of your work in every aspect of your business. Quality made furniture is just one aspect of the buyers experience. That's why Moser has nine showrooms and is growing in the age where people are running to IKEA for the latest deal.
Mike
Edited 1/25/2008 8:42 pm ET by mvflaim
Hey Ray,
I'm late getting into this thread, but I like your advice, and have thought the same thing.
I finished building a high end round kitchen table, this one for meself, and thought of selling copies waaay more than it costs... it's all in the image. My sister thought i could sell 'em to her new york friends for 10 grand... I laughed at first but am giving serious consideration.
I know a muralist who lives well painting the sides of prominent buildings in DC- he hires a crew mostly, like the masters of old, and makes 60-150k for a few months work...
far better to charge a lot and work little than vice versa, long as the fridge is full!Expert since 10 am.
I say more power to the Engineer etc who finds him or herself in a position to do what the NASA guy did. Not his fault he stuck it out in school and obviously did very well. I don't even have a bachelors degree but am just as proud of my creations and get a big kick out of people asking me to make sure and sign the piece. ( I sign and write the different types of wood used). I sign in pencil before finishing.
And if these types of stories bring a little more attention to the WW "culture", I say "Right on!" (Sorry, I'm a boomer...;)
As for the rocker. Like another said, I bet 100.00 bucks is a large amount to her (me too!). Sure, it's certainly not the rocker' value but I would just take it as a compliment and move on. Just ain't worth it brother!
Brian
I don't know if anyone has any resentment for the white collar worker that decides switch to blue after making their money.Closest I get to that feeling is only when someone that does it "just for fun" lowballs the price. But the production of those folks doesn't really affect the market too much. Just wonder how an accountant or programmer etc. would feel if someone took an account and did it "just for fun".Again doesn't really affect the market overall but I do find it amazing some people feel guilty about taking money for woodworking.
Interesting discussion. I'm a 'white collar' computer guy, who would love to convince myself that I could make a living woodworking. Maybe the grass is always greener? Just to put the shoe on the other foot, there are lots of people, people who don't necessarily have white collar jobs, who program for fun and for free. Linux and firefox and many other incredibly useful pieces of software were built by volunteers who did it because they like doing it. Todd
This is a great topic, and I think I can play both sides of it. I am a financial adviser, and the funny thing is, I run into people all the time who think they can manage their own portfolios. Guess what, most people can't. Because I work for a wirehouse (translation...full service brokerage firm) fees are often an issue, unless of course, you really have money, and really want it well taken care of. People in this day and age seem to think that financial services pay for themselves because so many firms have commoditized the service and hidden the fees. Multi-millionaires generally want better service and will pay for it, because they want to know what is going on with their money, and want to be able to talk with the guy handling it. Just like those willing to pay for custom furniture. If that is what you want, price generally is not a huge obstacle. As I like to say "price is really only a consideration in the absence of value." That said, woodworking is my hobby. I love my time in the shop, and love to make things. My skills are getting better, and I will continue to do this for the rest of my life. While I admire the skills of professionals, I don't wish to be one. I need a hobby and a passion, and this is it. You pros can be passionate, and more power to you for making your passion your career. I just know that me personally, I like not having anybody to answer to (woodworking) making what I want with whatever materials I want, and not having to justify every tool purchase to the bottom line. I am sure that you who are professional woodworkers need another escape from woodworking. Maybe down the road, I may make a second career out of woodworking, but I would never "lowball." If I didn't need the money, that would be all the more reason NOT to lower prices. I think there are very few true craftsmen out there who sell quality work on the cheap just because they don't need the money. And fewer still who's quality could compete with a competent professional. I'd sooner give it away to a loved one than sell it cheaply to a stranger. The real problem is the cheap commoditization of the industry, and people's ignorance of the value. But then, as I mentioned above, it is a very limited market. If you want to do custom woodwork, you (and I mean you generally) had better learn how to find and define your market. In my business, managing money is the easy part, finding clients for whom to manage money is the real work. I think anyone who thinks otherwise, is in denial. You don't make something and try to sell it...find someone who wants something and make it for them. Hopefully, nobody takes offense at this, because I do not mean to insult anyone, and I have the utmost respect for the professional woodworking craft.
I think I understand where you're coming from.
Not being a professional but having sold a few things I sure am aware that the average person doesn't realize just what goes into a piece. Especially when it's not a production piece.
I do get tired of friends asking me to build them, say, a cabinet and they think it will be cheaper then getting it at a furniture store. I tactfully explain to them that my piece is handmade with usually many hours of work put into it and not something coming off a production line. They usually understand but I DO lose a commision from time to time too.
Later,
Brian
Now I really don't want to give the impression I have resentment to the public for not having knowledge about woodworking. The situation is what it is in our times. Crafted furniture just isn't a growing part or large part of the economy nor is it likely to ever be again.My challenges as a woodworker are to produce something at a quality and design level to support the prices necessary to live a solid life as I define it AND something I want to build (laminate anyone). Bigger challenge is finding the market to support that type of activity.When someone poo-poos the price of something I also remind myself "that isn't my market" instead of focusing just on the negative. Finding customers that don't blink when they see $3000 on a rocking chair is the hard part, if I can't sell to those people then something is wrong on my end.But trying to sell to someone to whom I must validate my price is an uphill battle. Like expecting laughter after spending five minutes explaining why something is funny.
Edited 1/26/2008 2:40 pm ET by adastra001
A good friend of my wife's wanted me to build a bed for her. She showed me a picture in a catalog and could not understand (at first) why I could not build it cheaper than the catalog price. She's not a stupid person (PhD) but just didn't think the situation through.
A lot of people think that because you enjoy what you do that you should do it for nothing.
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Off topic: this is a thoroughly enjoyable discussion!
Late, maybe but "off topic", I don't think so. Check the "in reply to" on my post. I realize it has nothing to do with Jimmy Carter but it is slightly relevant to the post I responded to.
Enjoy your discussion.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack,
could not understand (at first) why I could not build it cheaper than the catalog price
When you run into this again, show them the shoddy/cheap construction used and then show them a sample of your work. Maybe then they'll see the difference.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob & All ,
Some people just don't , won't or can't see the difference in regards to quality . They see the difference in price but there is little we can do to educate those without the ability to see the difference.
Chances are even if the good and bad was right in front of them they still would only see the price tag .
I tell my potential clients when the subject of comparing costs comes into the conversation , from my work to others that may cost less , if they can't see the difference they really should not pay for it .And I do mean that .
Not everyone is as concerned with quality as we may be , and it may be low on the list of priorities , unlike price .
Some may call numerous shops and ask how much per foot do you charge , and unfortunately based on the numbers they get they will go in to that shop without ever seeing any work from any other shops .
When that happens I kindly tell them I don't price on the phone or I ask them how many feet do they want ? Typically these are not our potential clients anyways , they are a different caliber of client , or maybe even the new shop in town checking prices .
The majority of my clients have been referred by a past client or often my competition , a certain sense of credibility and trust is instantly instilled .
regards dusty
why I could not build it cheaper than the catalog price
I hear this one quite often and counter with the fact that - even if I built the piece at the same level of quality - my price would be higher since I don't do mass production. Manufacturing 10,000 identical pieces drives the unit cost far below whatever my cost would be to make just one.
Most folks grasp that pretty quickly and I can often clinch the deal when I point out that whatever I make for them will meet their specific needs instead of being "as close as they can find".
Even those who don't sign up gain an understanding of the difference between custom and mass produced work. A few have called me back later for something else and - this time - they're ready to talk. - lol
Hi Dave,
I was quoting Winemane with the first sentence of my post.
What you say is very true about manufacturing driving down the cost, at least I assume that was a goal for manufacturers. I'm not in business for myself as a craftsman (hell I'm not even sure folks would call me that!) so my take on these issues is most likely different than ones take who IS in business.
Where I'm coming from is when I see a piece made with veneered particle board parts that are screwed together (obviously factory made) being compared to a solid wood piece that is handmade and finished. In reality I feel we are talking about to diametrically opposed potential customers, in most cases.
Would you agree with the notion that if you have to justify all your dovetails, fine joinery, exquisite material selection and matching, attention to detail and fine finish that you are most likely trying to sell to the wrong person?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob -
I've found that my marketing "process" usually requires quite a bit of education. Few customers have any real understanding of mass production v.s. custom work, but it really isn't very hard to explain it to them. What really sells them (I think) is that they have so many options.
Ask the lady of the house how many drawers she wants - and what size, and watch her eyes light up.
Explain to her that those production cabinets are all modules and that some space will be lost to filler panels, and watch her brain go into overdrive thinking up all kinds of uses for the "new" space.
Show her pictures of a drawer box with perfect dovetails and watch her eyes glaze over!! - lol Dovetails always amaze me. Yes, they're neat, but I have yet to meet a customer who is willing to pay to get them. Yes, they're stronger, but how strong does a drawer box need to be if it has roller glides.
Dave,
Yes, they're stronger, but how strong does a drawer box need to be if it has roller glides.
I think that depends on whether or not you want to repair it down the road from an abusive user. Not disagreeing with you about most folks getting all googawed up over DTs. I think you'ree right about it. We as woodworkers take great pride in well executed joinery no matter what kind it is.
It's kinda funny but a friend stopped over the other night with a new electronic gee gaw that she claimed was extremely intelligent. You think of something and this electronic genius asks a series of 20 questions and supposedly can determine what you are thinking of. Well after 4 series of 20 questions it couldn't figure out that I was thinking of dovetail joint. Yes, I did answer the questions honestly!
I was chomping at the bit to try it again, thinking of a mortise and tenon..........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob -
Well, I can only go with my own experience building drawers, but I've never had a drawer failure. I built my kitchen cabinets about 10 years ago using wood runners instead of glides. I wax the runners with a candle every year or so, but that's been it.
The bathroom vanities were built around 11 years ago using those inexpensive 3/4 extension roller glides. One of them survived the punishment that only teen aged daughters can dish out and they still work like new.
The closet in SWMBO's craft room was gutted about 25 years ago and turned into storage space. Those drawers were made from pine with wood runners. SWMBO is an all-pro when it comes to utilizing space. She can easily pack 25# into places that should only hold 10#. Those runners are showing a little wear, but still work.
My office used to be #2 daughters bedroom and that closet was also turned into storage/hanging space. Yep, more pine drawers with wood glides that still work just fine.
I have no idea of how many drawers I've built for customers over the years but I've never used dovetails.................and I've never had a call back. I've never had a customer request them, and when I've mentioned them, not one has ever been willing to pay the extra cost to get them.
I've fooled around with dovetails and think they're cool. Someday, I'll use them on one of my personal projects just for the hell of it, but even the pickiest customers I've ever worked for haven't been interested.
I only build furniture for my own house, and until reading your post I always felt that I was cutting corners in the interest of expediency by avoiding dovetails. (Not that anyone noticed but me). Now I feel vindicated!
Dave,
I hear ya load and clear and echo many of your experiences and I also like to make them. If I were making a period piece where they are the accepted way, I would certainly employ their use.
To me it's kind of like using Pocket Screws for face frames instead of using Mortises and tenons. Whoa wait a minute, I didn't mean that the way it came out. What I meant to say was that many times it really doesn't matter what joinery is used as long as it does the job.
Wow, I hope I didn't rile up the joinery gawds with that!
Think I'll go soak my head for a bit,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Lataxe,
I truly believe you are out of your mind.Mark in WBGV
Mark,
I do go out of my mind for journeys here and there. I brings back souvenirs, strange foreign customs and even the odd infection. Still, better this than moping in one's own head all the time, as it then begins to look like a prison.
If you have not come across them before, I recommend books, websites and television programmes not made in America, as excellent transport modes to elsewhere. There are many destinations and routes.
Of course, it is always nice to come home again to a comfy old meme and some familiar prejudices jostling for space around the fireside.
Lataxe, self-therapist
Lataxe,
Perhaps I was hasty in my judgement; for that I apologize. Perhaps you are Sir
Richard Burton reincarnate, traveling to Mecca or describing the Mountains of the
Moon. Your elegiac description of utopia is seductive, but only to the mind that has
not come to terms with the world around it. Dystopia, as Hobbes would say, is 'nasty,
brutish, and short.' One's mind can defend itself only with lies or hope. Neither will
suffice the onslaught of reality. Perhaps only faith can carry one to the day of
reckoning.
Regards, Mark in WBGV
Mark,
It's good to see that Mr Hobbes has not been forgot, not his dire warning to those who would do away with government as a concept.
Of course, from his perspective the "state of (human) nature" would manifest as a nasty thang. Perhaps he was had-at by a highway robber, got the pox from a dox or was otherwise unimpressed with the general behaviour of his neighbours (and even more so the foreigners)?
In truth I like his message better than that of any true Utopian philosophe, which chaps seem to have unreaalistic visions strangely tied to some personal obsession or other. But we must look at current evidence and not get stuck in a "Great Chain of Being" mindset. What would even a Hobbes opine about the state of nature in a world containing the knowledge we have today concerning human behaviour?
Daniel Dennett mentions that "freedom evolves" and his arguments are persuasive. I personally have led a charmed life, not by accident but because it is the nature of the times here in Europe and perhaps even the USA (despite the terrible ravages of foreign policy on your young folk there).
Human nature, of course, has a genetic element; some behaviours are built-in, including those we generally now criminalise (except in war). But human nature is perhaps unique in being hugely affected by ideas. The stuff in our heads makes an enormous difference to how we behave. The human condition evolves far faster than does the human meatware, because the memes in our bonces evolves faster.
Now, perhaps that evolution will take a turn for the worse and we will all be bowing down to a rabid despot in a few years. Alternatively, what might otherwise be described from today's viewpoint as "utopian" might come about. Millions of us in the Western world have achieved a life that must seem utopian to the ghosts of Hobbes' age, certainly.
Lataxe, a daft wee optimist
Lataxe,
Though I was stimulated by reading The Selfish Gene (Dawkins) and
Consciousness Explained (Dennett), I have a strong aversion to uninvited
memes taking up lodging in my bonce. My solution, offered to all and sundry,
is to wear an aluminum (tinfoil) skullcap which either reflects or absorbs stray
memes in my vicinity. So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Best regards,Mark in WBGV
To be truly effective at meme reflection it should be fitted with a Faraday cage and cover the ears and eyes tightly. If fitted from birth it can result in a desire to practice politics, corporate management or other undesirable side effects.
r,
Ah. but will it deflect Zaphod's poetry readings?
Ray
I completly agree, I thinks it's wrong when a hobbiest sell his pieces way to little. For those of us trying to make a living out of hand crafted furniture know that a dining table cost a lot more than to make than some guys charge for. But people that do it for fun, can charge that because it doesn't matter to them in the long run. But then I have to deal with the customer that says, but that guy will build it for this much.Kaleohttp://www.kaleosworkshop.com
K,
I have to disagree with you on your contention that it's "wrong when a hobbiest sell his pieces [for] way to little"
Al of my pieces are: given away; swapped for timber or another favour; charged at cost to cover some special expense such as a fancy handle the recipient required. My "labour" (read "pleasurable pursuits") and usually the timber are free.
It seems unlikely that this will immediately undermine the market in bespoke furniture, as most folk would not pay the thousands usually demanded for some of the nicer stuff. If they will, then they prefer the cache of a known professional rather than my efforts.
Nevertheless I look forward to a time when manufactured objects are all given away free and everyone can afford to work on making them for nothing, having income from elsewhere. Where does this income and hence the largesse come from, you ask.
Well, it requires only a change in the psychology of economics to take root world wide and such a scenario is now physicaly possible. We can produce enough of the essentials (food, shelter and similar) for the whole world with only a tiny amount of labour. Of course, the over-conspicuous consumption model of modern capitalism may have to go away first, which will not happen soon - but even now there are evolutionary forces undermining it, not least global warming and the collateral damage caused by the rabid seeking for oil.
I for one am willing to work my 3 hours a week in the fields or at the buiding site if, as a result, I can spend most of my time and skills on learning how to make beautiful furniture to give away. Moreover, I like to forsee a time when manufactured objects of beauty and utility are valued for their own sake rather than becaue some crazy economic system from the C19th says they are worth this or that number of dollars, the only measure of value allowed.
Being a pensioner, I am already half way there and there are now millions like me. Huzzah!
Lataxe, free at last
"Nevertheless I look forward to a time when manufactured objects are all given away free and everyone can afford to work on making them for nothing, having income from elsewhere. Where does this income and hence the largesse come from, you ask.
Well, it requires only a change in the psychology of economics to take root world wide and such a scenario is now physicaly possible. We can produce enough of the essentials (food, shelter and similar) for the whole world with only a tiny amount of labour. Of course, the over-conspicuous consumption model of modern capitalism may have to go away first, which will not happen soon - but even now there are evolutionary forces undermining it, not least global warming and the collateral damage caused by the rabid seeking for oil."
Interesting theory Vladimir.
Edited 2/5/2008 8:17 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
I know you sometimes indicate you are driven by making money for your wares and sometimes by a desire to (for want of a better phrase) be the best; probably both are true.
If one did not have to strive to make things superbly just to get money (if that sunny utopia I mentioned did come about) do you think that most would still strive or would they all collapse in front of the TV with some MacFud and a sixpack?
The question is serious, as I have always wished to know what the fundamental human creative drive is fueled by. My own belief (and it is really more a faith than a theory) is that striving to do well and achieve things (in the widest sense) does not require money, even though that is one mechanism that works in a capitalist economy. Call me an foolish romantic but I feel motivated by many things other than the cash and seem to see many others who also have drives nothing to do with riches.
What makes someone want to be a (well paid) high class bespoke furniture-maker rather than a (very well paid) Wal Mart executive: furniture branch?
Lataxe, an anthropologist (4th class).
Lataxe,
You said: would they all collapse in front of the TV with some MacFud and a sixpack?
I for one would not. Besides I prefer Burger KING instead. :-)
Also: the fundamental human creative drive
I don't think there is any one thing but rather a lot of things, i.e. perfectionism, competition, pride, one ups manship, challenge, etc. I think there is a VERY LONG list of feelings that fuel the creative drive and it varies for each person.
Good luck with your search.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
If one did not have to strive to make things superbly just to get money (if that sunny utopia I mentioned did come about) do you think that most would still strive or would they all collapse in front of the TV with some MacFud and a sixpack?
I too think this is an interesting question. I think the short answer is obvious: they would still strive. The longer answer, attempting to pinpoint the drives, is likely much more complex and perhaps not even subject to articulation.
I come from a family of artists, and I really believe that there is something in many folks personalities/genes that drives them to create for creation's sake. Creation is an imperative like gathering food. And it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that "makers" would be rewarded. So we are driven to make things as it brings us satisfaction; it quenches a literal thirst. As far as striving to make it bettter than others, ego no doubt weighs in somewhat. It is also personally satisfying for a maker to behold what he of she has made. As in "why did you make it?" - "I made it because I wanted to see and experience it."
Edited 2/5/2008 10:10 am ET by Samson
...I thinks it's wrong when a hobbyist sell his pieces way to little.
I must respectfully disagree with you. For the most part the people that hobbyists are building furniture for, aren't the type to commission work. For me it's usually friends and family that see some of my work and ask if I would build them something. Most aren't interested when I tell the the cost of the lumber. Are these 'customers' really a threat to your business? To me this seems like another variation of 'IKEA sells this for $100, can you build it cheaper'...
Honestly the hobbyist himself is probably the bigger loss for the pro. Most of my woodworking friends know good furniture, and got into it because they saw an item and thought it was overpriced for what it was. Considering what we spend on equipment, and usually we pay a premium for lumber... it would probably be cheaper for us to commission it in the long run!
See I disagree, no matter where the furniture comes from if it comes cheap it continues the cycle. Making people everywhere think that studio furniture is way overpriced. Or that if it costs over a certain amount that it's just not worth it.It's the whole Wal-mart thought process. People know what something cost at Wal-Mart. So when they go to the locally owned Mom and Pop shop and it cost a bit more they think they are getting ripped off. It works the same for us. That's the reason that we need to build hand-made and charge for it. So that people can see and hopefully appreciate the difference.Kaleohttp://www.kaleosworkshop.com
I started reading this thread but got away from it. I jumped back in and noticed your comment on hobbyists charging too little. No offense, but it's no bodys business what someone charges for their wares. I honestly can't see how a hobbyist could impact a production shop anyway. You are almost comparing it to a walmart which is the opposite. Walmart comes into an area with the intention of undercutting the competition so they can get more business. Hobbyists may only want enough back to fund their supplies to fund the next project. In the end, its supply and demand. In your model who gets to decide what this minimum amount to charge is? Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Kaleo,
I really think your fears are unfounded. First I doubt your real clients are shopping around for a hobbyist to do the work. Secondly I took a look at your website, and I don’t know many hobbyists who can offer what you’re doing.
I think your mixing value with cost. I don’t market my woodworking, and I suspect that most hobbyists are in a similar position. Most of the requests are from family and friends. The furniture I make for them usually has very high value to them; they realize the cost is far lower than the actual value of the item.
Even a hobbyist can not compete with Walmart or Ikea in most cases. Material costs are just too high. I think you’re underestimating your customers. Yes, everybody gets the occasional oddball who thinks custom work should be cheaper, but these are not high end furniture buyers in the first place.In the end, Studio furniture is expensive (and rightfully so). That alone prices it out of the range of most furniture buyers who are going to replace the item in a few years anyway. I was talking to a pro recently, his view on this topic was that most people see the value in custom made furniture, however they believe that it is out of their price range. People buy furniture on a budget, and the priority isn’t on furniture that will outlast them.
Greetings kaleo ,
I understand your concerns or fears , but you need to put these concerns into prospective .
The Ikea / Wally world Pier import Scan design type of buyer really is not looking for a custom product designed just for them . Even the average shopper that goes to the local furniture store is not in the custom market .
Your / our audience is rather select and limited to those who can afford the high end . The people who regularly shop and buy from gallery / studios have a feel for the price in this setting . The average furniture store shopper wants the $199 table and chairs .
Lets take a Maloofian knock off rocker that I have seen selling for around three thousand dollars , there is NO WAY the average Joe shopper will be prepared or willing to pay the price , the same folks that will buy the rocker are your potential client base , imo .
Bid your pieces the way you see fit , quote the price and don't look back !
dusty , who's been called overpriced in my neck of the woods , but never has a client felt over charged .
All very true, and yet it does little to ease my mind about how some people are going to make it in this trade, and how little respect most people get. I mena seriously, how on earth can anyone stand up to the rising tide of inferior work shipped out of places like China, Thailand, and Korea? In my view most people have lost sight of what quality really is, as well as the common since on paying for quality one rather than paying triple that over their lifetime for less substantial furniture. at the same time I can not understand how Thos. Moser can charge so much and stay in business. he charges something like two grand for a continuous arm chair, and that is ludicrous. Yes I do understand that customers are paying for a brand, and yes I understand that it is all very well made furniture, but two thousand dollars for a chair that is mostly machine made when an "average Joe" makes the same piece painstakingly by hand and gets half that price. It gives me little hope for a future in this trade.
I have my own little "business" for want of a better word, making these boxes that are totally hand made: shaped by handplane, joints cut by hand, I would even resaw the rough boards by hand if I could but that is a bit too purist. I sell these boxes for thirty-five dollars a piece regardless of the wood used. Then I see something made of MDF and totally faux grained going for fifty (and selling better somehow). I simply do not understand it.
Relayer,
You are showing wisdom beyond your age in your assessment of the potential for new makers to enter the market and be successful .
Imho the chances of getting rich and famous from your works is about as likely as becoming a professional athlete , not sure of the real numbers but I would venture to guesstamate maybe 1 in every thousand who start out in business end up wealthy as a result of the fine work they have done .
You could roll over as myself and many others did out of necessity and build boxes (cabinetmaker) to keep food on the table and earn a living between the one of a kind works . Earning an honest living in this day and age is not a bad thing in reality .
Soon we will almost all be a thing of the past , if the current pace continues from China and other far away places with no labor problems or insurance requirements or product safety rules in force , manufacturing costs much less when you only pay a few pennies per hour and no benefits for the workers other than the pay .
Something that makes the China syndrome even worse is some of these factories may be owned by U.S. firms , yeah they can make more money by building pieces over yonder then here in the states in most cases .
best of luck dusty
Imho the chances of getting rich and famous from your works is about as likely as becoming a professional athlete
Or a professional musician. How many kids go out and buy an electric guitar and think they are going to be the next rock star?
Dusty, I couldn't agree with you more.
Lee (who once had an electric guitar, and now builds cabinets)
Lee ,
I didn't mean to totally discourage the OP , just clear the Rose colored glasses a bit .
A person can still make a decent living and provide for the family by woodworking . With the proper training and a lot of artistic ability as well as luck and hard work a person can achieve success in the high end custom world .
There really is no limit to how well an individual can do , it's all according to ability , marketing and showing in areas that can support your level of expertise .
dusty , finger pickin good
at the same time I can not understand how Thos. Moser can charge so much and stay in business. he charges something like two grand for a continuous arm chair, and that is ludicrous.
Actually he gets $1275. Moser makes attractive furniture, but he also has been an effective marketer. He has several showrooms where people can look and touch, and he has a substantial number of styles available. No doubt there are many craftsmen (and women) who make similar, or better furniture, but he has figured how to turn it into a substantial and apparently profitable business. He employs about 100 people in Maine. More power to him, as far as I'm concerned.
Moser makes attractive furniture, but he also has been an effective marketer.
This was another gem of information that came from my recent conversation with a pro. His feeling was the overall success of a pro was a mix of fundamental skills (being able to construct), design ability, and marketing ability. If any of these were lacking the business would fail.
Marketing was also more than just creating a name. Moser really isn't a custom woodworker anymore. As my firend put it, it is reaching the people that have the money to spend... but don't think of custom work as an option. Where we live there are many people many people that would drop $10,000+ on a dining set, that in reality is probably only worth $3000. The challenge is to reach them to let them know they can buy a piece for $10,000 that's actually worth $10,000.
Further to this thought, the biggest obstical that he faced marketing is that he was selling a piece that wasn't made. He may be able to visualize it, but most people can not. Add to that the wait for the build, and the clearing of any backlog... the customer could be waiting for some time. Another challenge.
Most people probably can't really tell a piece of furniture that is finely made from one that isn't. People who do a little woodworking, like me, probably can tell a piece of crap from a nice piece. Only a comparatively few people (not me, but probably many others who post here) can tell the difference between a $3000 piece and a $10,000 piece.
Moser still advertises that they do custom work. He seems to have hit a market for nice, attractive, well-made, expensive (but not too expensive), semi-mass produced furniture. I'd pay $1275 for one of his chairs if I could afford it, but I'll probably wait until I get good enough to build one. It may be a while before that happens, but I did recently make my dog a little stool to put her bowl on and she thinks it is pretty nice:-)
His feeling was the overall success of a pro was a mix of fundamental skills (being able to construct), design ability, and marketing ability. If any of these were lacking the business would fail.
Every artist or craftsman faces that problem, unfortunately.
First please let me say that I meant and mean no offense to anyone. I totally understand where everyone is coming from. I'm not trying to say that we need to dictate how much people should charge. And I don't think that any individual hobbyist can affect the whole market. But there are thousands of hobbyist out there. By charging to little perpetuates the myth that handmade furniture can be done cheap. Which is just not true.Kaleohttp://www.kaleosworkshop.com
Kaleo,
I have looked at your site and I really like some of your pieces, I think you should raise your prices even higher to compensate for all the hobbyists who are undercutting you.
As a studio furniture builder you are aiming for that rarified stratosphere of customers who feel that price really is no object. The hobbyist is no threat to you unless you are seriously underpriced.
You are talking about an amount of money they make in minutes yet you are comparing them to people who would have to work six months for the same remuneration.
The customer base you should be targeting is far removed from the WalMart or Ikea shopper.
Edited for spelling!
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Edited 2/5/2008 4:00 am by dgreen
I echo dusty's sentiments but would point out that thus it has always been, IMHO, it's just a matter of scale. Going back to pre-industrial revolution, there have always been those that for the moment can afford the product, those that are superstars making a product or who are skilled at marketing themselves, those that aren't and don't but still make a decent wage for the time, those that provide the product for the masses and those that make there own - for fun or necessity. And human kind has always had hobbies and diversions proportionate to wealth. We have had fine pieces and junk going back to Etruscans and we've had furniture factories in ancient Greece. Foreign competition has always been so. In economics, the market over time always adjusts to the buyer. If there are complaints about the market pricing structure, I would suggest the famous Peanuts line of "We have met the enemy and he is us." I don't complain about the $450.00 roll top desk at Costco. Those that buy it are NOT my market. Never were. They would never would pay $2000-$20,000 for a desk. (not my charges, just an example) For them, if it were not $450, it would never be a spent check.As far as there being too much competition at the price level chosen, I would suggest that it has always been that way but people pass and do retire and new people rise to fill the need proportionate to the population. There will always be room for good people and there will always be room for the hobbyist and their market. It's all just a matter of scale.Just my opinion.Johnfrom the O coast"Eat Crab, Wear Grundens"
Not to quibble but I believe that line is from Pogo by Walt Kelly.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Not to quibble but I believe that line is from Pogo by Walt Kelly.
I think you are correct. I believe the line from Peanuts that is universally useful is
AAARGHH!!
YOU ARE CORRECT!ON BOTH COUNTS!John
Hey man, don't measure yourself against others. Secondly, what you do for a living does not matter. My dad taught me (and I have carried that on to my sons), it don't matter what you do in this world, as long as you do an honest days work, and respect others and love your family. There will always be someone who makes more money, lives in a bigger house. So what! Measure yourself against what you do and how you live your life! As to the lady and the 100 rocker, she probably knows no better and did not intend her comment as a slap. She probably thought she was being nice. If you want to make furniture for a living do it! The only limitations in life are self imposed!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
One reason why those woodworkers get attention is that they are probably more vigorous at marketing themselves and their products. Do you always have one of your cards in your pocket? Have you ever sent a press release to the local papers? Does every one in your church know that you do custom woodworking?
It's not possible to compete on the basis of the product alone--in a one or two man shop you can't possibly make things inexpensively enough so you could be a low cost seller, and quality is pretty subtle for most buyers. But they do like to have a story when they pay big bucks for custom furniture. It doesn't have to be "junk bond analyst turned furniture maker". It can be as simple as "my love for design led me from the telephone company to building furniture" And anyway, the NASA engineer got fired when his special project ended and the software company went bankrupt.
And of course it makes sense to sign pieces. Part of it is that buyers really want to know that a person made the furniture, not an assembly line. Another part is pragmatic--what if they or a friend wants another piece several years later, they shouldn't have to have happened to keep a receipt to know your name, at least. And, if you should happen to become famous they want to be able to cash in on it with their signed piece. It lets them justify the spending as an investment.
Some people are way off base as to what something is worth. I had an old pickup that I needed to get rid of. I asked several what it was worth. One fella looked at it as said enthusiastically, "It should be worth a good three or four hundred," A little later I was on my way home from church and a kid ran a stop sign and pulled out in front of me. Their insurance company said it was worth forty six hundred. And it was good money; I took it and said "thanks." If one is paid a fair price, it doesn't matter what a certain individual might think it is worth. What does make the difference is what you are, in fact, paid. An yes, there are collector's items. I can see why a shirt that was worn by Abraham Lincoln when he was shot might bring more than just any old shirt that might be for sale.
First of all, let me say that I believe that a craftsman should sign his (or her) work. To me, it is a sign that the craftsman takes pride in his work; not that he is prideful but, that he has pride in doing a good job for his customers and accepts responsibility for his work, good or bad.
To offer a different point of view and just food for thought, below are some excerpts from "The Unknown Craftsman" by Soetsu Yanagi on the subject of signing your work.
Considering signed work versus unsigned work:
"If we place them side by side, strangely enough artist crafts cannot be said to be better, for they depend on the personality of the artist rather than the character of the craft. If the names of the artists were unknown, could they have stood the contest. There are people who buy the name of the maker rather than the quality."
Another excerpt:
"When work of an artist has fully developed, he need not worry about recognition by others; also, naturally his work will not need his signature. Peacefully he will make things, though nobody will ask the name of the maker. If he must say occasionally, "I made this and this", then his circumstances are not yet such as will promise him true happiness."
Yanagi also says:
"Almost all craftsmen believe that they deserve the honour of signing their names on their wares because they call themselves artists. Their customers and critics, too, appreciate things with signatures on them. Gradually the public begins to respect these signed works because they are made by artists, and interest in objects without signatures wanes. Prices of objects often depend on the existence of signatures."
Again, just food for thought.
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
Edited 1/26/2008 1:54 am by Wood Jack
Ever have one of those days?
YEP! About every day but I do not take life that seriously!
It’s as if unless you’re an engineer or an artist ones work is not up to par..
My Electronics Degree was when all they had were Vacuum Tubes!
YEP! About every day but I do not take life that seriously!
It’s really embarrassing for us average Joes’ who have worked in dead end jobs most of our lives and have nothing but bad memories and high blood pressure to show for it..
I have the high blood pressure.. BUT I (OK so my wife did it)..
All our children turned out MORE THAN OK! They like people and have enough brains to keep away from the BAD folks..
AND..
But the best one was when someone told me “bet you could get $100 for that rocker”; he was talking about a Maloof style rocking chair in Walnut that I just finished.
I learned LONG ago being in Service (Fixed all types of Printing Stuff?).. Not all is as it seems at the time.. Some of my nastiest customers turned out to be good friends when they paid ALOT for my service and they got it 'fixed' and I never ripped them off..
I agree with previous posters that said, It's all in the marketing" but not in quite the same way.
The primary purveyor of these tales of former corporate entrepreneurs leaving it all behind for the purity of a hand cut dovetail are always featured in a magazine very close to this physical discussion. These stories are also apocryphal, always being more notable for some reason than the "overnight" success after 30 years in the shop. I heard these tales 40 years ago, as I entered the field at age 18.
Since a magazine devoted to the expansion of the craft (or shall we say, "market") wants to appeal to the largest, most affluent segment of their potential market, they will advance the use of such apocryphal tales in their efforts to appeal to that woppy (well-off older person) - to take the leap, buy the tablesaw and the handplanes and finally "enjoy life". Much more attractive than a former truck driver or pole-climber.
It's all in the marketing.
Dave S
Sitting in my living room is a solid oak entertainment center that I built. It has raised panel pocket doors with heavy duty hardware. Wood: $500. Hardware: $250 Approximate value: $2100. Could I sell my work? Possibly.
I will not do any work for friends or relatives. They all seem to think they deserve a discount. My cousin's wife asked me to refinish a 10' long oak dining room table and 8 ladderback chairs. She said she would buy the stripper. How generous. She had no answer when I asked what I was to get for my labor.
Most people really don't have a clue about cost of materials, tooling, and labor. Even fewer seem to recognize quality when they see it.
I will stay in the blue collar job I have and continue to build furniture for myself of the quality I cannot afford to buy.
"Only in Knots could my post go from having a bad day to a discussion of Jimmy Carter "
If you are discussing the years 1976-80, are they not one and the same?
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Get ready brother, those days may be coming back! You can bet your taxes will be going up! They govt is here to help! YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Winemane,
What I like most about Jimmy Carter is the time and effort he has invested in Habitat for Humanity. I have a tough time supporting a charity that supports people who don't try to pull up their own boot straps. Habitat for Humanity helps WORKING poor people who also must invest hundreds of hours of labor above and behond their regular job.
The $100 rocker... Most of us don't understand value of crafts in one way or another. I have a tough time paying $1000 for a painting for my living room, $150 for a hand knitted sweater, or a $600 quilt. These fine crafters deserve to make a living. And have time, tools and materials invested in making a (I assume) quallity product These are areas where I don't understand value I guess. Yet, as a woodworker I do understand value in the rocker you wrote about earlier.
Hi Folks,
I'm a bit late to this discussion & have no input
on Jimmy Carter. But I do have a similar story to Winemane's
original issue.
I have a full time job and a small furniture business on the side.
I'll also do the occasional commissioned job.
Last week my brother-in-law asked me to build him two
matching ( but slightly different) baseball card storage boxes
for his son and daughter. He wants the "Topps" baseball card logo
with first, middle and last names of his children along with birth
dates (spelled out - not numerical!) all hand carved into the box.
He says "I'm not looking for a free-bee. I know your good & just
tell me what I owe ya!" After describing what it was that he wanted
in detail (having seen a high end box that I built & sold for $600)
I did press him for a dollar amount he'd be willing to pay.
His budget - $150 which should include
shipping from Massachusetts to Nebraska!
He couldn't understand what I was laughing about.
End result is - since he is my brother-in-law and the boxes are for
my niece & nephew...I am building the boxes - sans carving - in pine.
Sheesh!
Bill-
Ya know Winemane - I may just send him 2 shoe boxes as a joke!
Thanks for the suggestion!
Bill-
I am in awe of anyone who has the moral courage to work as a craftsman in the age of Wal-Mart.
Unfortunately, in this Wal-Mart age, few people make enough money to pay the thousands of dollars that quality furniture made by a craftsman is legitimately worth. By the same token, it would be completely irresponsible for most working cabinet makers to pay a couple of grand for a custom made suit made by a fancy tailor.
If there were such a thing as a tailor's forum, I bet you would see posters whining about how their cheap ignorant cabinet maker brother in law thought that a custom made suit should cost $500, when the material alone costs more than that. And in order to keep family harmony, the cabinet maker is getting a custom suit anyway, (but it will made of cheap wool!).
The trouble with the Wal-Mart age is that everyone knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
This "Wal-Mart age" has been going on before all of us were even born.
The corporate philosophy changed from "what do we have to sell?" to "what does the customer want?" A new emphasis was placed on volume purchases in addition to streamlined distribution, and Sears was still able to sell far beneath general store prices. Sales went from $750,00 in 1895 to more than $10,000,000 in 1900, surpassing Montgomery Ward for the first time.
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/acs/1890s/sears/sears3.html
Yeah but the world really changed the day a parent could get arrested for spanking the kid at K Mart or Wally world .
dusty , , whose parents escaped incarceration , before the world became a kinder and gentler place .
Everyday.
Wine,
I retired on Jan. 3 from a 30 year career at NASA. I enjoyed that career very much. For those 30 years and another ten, I had woodwork as a hobby. Now I have more time to do it. In my years at NASA, I knew a number of cohorts who did woodworking as a hobby. I don't sell anything. My extended family gets the things I make. I am happy they like them.
Last year, I was showing a neighbor a curly maple cabinet that I just finished. All joinery was mortise and tenon, and the grain is gorgeous, and the finish is very very nice. My neighbor complimented me, saying "Mel, you should sell these things. I 'll bet you could get $50 for something like this."
It shouldn't have bothered me, but it did. Of course I got over it in a nanosecond. The materials for that cabinet cost more than $50. The hand made M&T joints took some time, and I worked lovingly on the finish for quite a while. $50?
Oh well. I was very happy with my curly maple cabinet. More importantly, my wife is very happy with it. Nothing could make me happier.
Some people drag you down. Some life you up. Find the ones that life you up, and hang around with them. It feels better.
Never fight with a pig. Both you and the pig will get dirty, and pigs love to get dirty.
Never argue with a fool. Bystanders can't tell which is which.
Have fun. If someone gives you irrelevant feedback on it, just consider the source. If you want a second opinion, send me a photo of the piece. :-)
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
MelGlad to see you back. I thought you had become completely addled with "babies".By the way, how did you 'schedule' a grandchild to coincide with your retirement?Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I thought you had become completely addled with "babies".I did that! And OK with it! OK, so it takes away from shop time but MEN LOVE BABIES ALSO!
Frosty,
I have been around. Mostly in the long thread in Hand Tools, though not as much as I used to be. The grandbaby has won my heart (that was easy). Spending time with him is a pure joy. I have also been doing a lot of woodwork -- making bowls from green wood. Am now making a big one out of sycamore. Great exercise, and I end up with a bowl that I could have bought at Pier 1 for $15 :-)Stop over to the long thread and help us hit 2000. We need someone witty like you, who can stir up the blood and passions of woodworkers.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Oh, never mind.
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Don,
"As far as hanging around with those that lift you up, sometimes they are few and far between. It�s been my experience that some people will tear you apart when they think your are really good at something."
You know, that happens to me too much when I show other woodworkers my latest piece. Right now I am hand carving a bowl out of a large piece of green sycamore with a mallet and big gouges and an adze. There was a meeting of the carvers yesterday and I showed them the progress on my bowl. The comments were things like:
" Those things sure do take a lot of time."
" Not making much progress, are you?"
" It sure takes a lot of patience to make those things."
"Where did you get the wood?"
I guess I would have liked a "Nice bowl, Mel. Good design. I see how you are getting the inside of the bowl to match the outside. Nice job." or anything like that.
This is not new. It seems to happen far more than the opposite. So I overreact. When a woodworker shows me something they are making, I say very good things. We can get down to business later, if it is really necessary. Even is something is not well made, one can always say something nice about it, which is specific and true.
I think the negativity on the part of many stems from their lack of self confidence.
30 years ago, it bothered me a lot. Much less now. I still like to show off my stuff. Not because I think it is the best in the world, but because I like to see other people's stuff too.
Have fun.
As the Romans used to say,
"Non illigitimi carborundum."
Don't let the b******* get you down.
Have fun,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Ol' Blue Eyes said, "Some people get their kicks from steppin' on a dream. That's life!"
I bet you will take his example, and do it Your Way.
Also, "She's broke. That's oak. That's why the lady is a tramp."
Guess he didn't like oak huh? I think it's kind of a slutty wood too.
Ray
At least that overcup oak - quite the cleavage. Then there's that beech.
Ray,
"That's Life".What's Life?
It's a magazine.
How much does it cost?
It costs 25 cents.
But I only have a nickel.Great songs.
There is wisdom in songs. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
There is wisdom in songs. The trick is in knowing which song applies to one's needs at the moment.
"There stands the glass.
Fill it up to the brim.
Til my memories grow dim.
It's my first one today."
Works for most occasions.
Cheers,
Ray
Ray,
You must have the radio on all the time when you are in the shop, which has to be over two or three hours a day.
Mel
ps I posted a question under turning and carving. My green bowl has gotten some mold or mildew. I am wondering if I should treat it now or when it dries.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Perhaps that mold will produce a fine spalt and should be coo'd at to encourage it?
When you dry it, the mold will be killed anyway. Perhaps it is worth leaving it for a bit to see what happens? (Not until the bowl turns punky then crumbles to dust, of course).
Lataxe, seeking to discover what the mildew wants to be.
Lataxe,
I like your way of thinking. I believe I will just let the bowl dry and see what has happened.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled