Hi folks,
Knots is a forum dedicated to woodworking. Please refrain from all religious discussions–even in the cafe.
If you want to talk religion… please go find another forum.
Thank you for your assistance.
Gina, FineWoodworking.com
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Replies
Upsetting decision
Having far better things to do with my time, I wouldn't participate in a religious debate if I saw one. But if this is your official policy then better to close the Cafe. Being told what not to discuss... makes me a bit upset.
knickers without knots
My guess the "new" policy is the result of a situation in which one discussion prompted a non-woodworker to make at least a couple of extraordinarily long treatises on the benefits of a particular religion. Better to nip it in the bud, so to speak, before such posts are found in every thread.
What else can anyone say except....."AMEN"
Zeal?
So I guess this means those who bow to the church of Maloof, the religious zeal for wood of Krenoff and strive to learn the dance of the shakers are banned as well. The religion of the axe, tree and dovetail preached by Fine Woodworking are oft misunderstood. Oh well.
Bravo Gina
There are websites and forums a-plenty to discuss religion, politics, pornography, whatever, but not here, thank goodness.
This is where I come to talk about woodworking and to enjoy a camaraderie with other woodworkers. It's a haven, let's keep it that way.
MHO, Bret
is the cafe not an open forum?. you do not have to tune into his thread as any other that doesn't hold your interest., I am not a religious person so I am not supporting him. I thought that America was the land of freedom of speech.
I bet you that there are people who do not want to listen to your bs
cheers
ron
land of freedom
One way to look at it is that freedom of speech or religion does not give you the right to spray paint slogans on the side of my house and this forum is the side of FWW's house. They own it. They make the rules. Just my 2cents.
easier to say what's ok
I thought by requesting access to the cafe you knew you might not agree or even really dislike something and that was the cost of admission.(at least this use to be the case in the old days when all the old timers were still around) Now admitedly religion is a touchy one, but you can post your response disagree or hit ignore. Not responding tends to let a conversation die!
Now this topic is off line, maybe we can just be told what is acceptable and just post only if you agree with those points of view. We don't want to offend any one!
Geez Louise, just go ahead and take me out of the cafe, one more nail in the coffin.
More Bad News: Technical Issues with the Cafe
Hi Folks,
I appreciate this spirited debate. Thanks for the feedback.
Here’s some background on why I made this post. As we all know, the “new” Knots has a lot of outstanding technical issues and requested upgrades. Sadly, they’ve been pushed to the back of the development burner due to other more urgent development upgrades.
It’s not the way I’d like it to be, but in these tough economic times, I’m sure everyone can understand that things get prioritized, whether it’s in your job or your personal budget at home.
Cafe isn’t very private now
One of these bugs, is that the cafe isn’t as private as it once was. I haven’t done extensive testing on this, but I believe that cafe discussions are now being picked up by search engines. And, I don’t think that cafe access is required now in the same way that it was before.
This is evident to me because someone who never posted on Knots before was able to read and reply to a recent discussion in the cafe.
Some say do away with the cafe entirely then... That’s a possibility and I’ll take it into consideration.
While I don’t think anyone is a fan of censorship and draconian measures, this forum is dedicated to woodworking. I appreciate it the more we can keep discussions to our central mission.
Web and magazine staff here at FW have very limited time and we’d rather spend it producing woodworking content than moderating discussions on hot-button news issues after fielding complaints.
Anyway, I just wanted to weigh in with some additional details on the status of the cafe. Sorry to be the bearer of yet more news on bugs on this platform.
Thank you, Gina, FineWoodworking.com
Now it makes more sense
Ya know I kinda had some inkling there was something else to this. I think if we knew that the cafe was no longer filterd then it would have made more sense and people would have understood a bit more. To be honest, since most of tho old timers are gone, not much happens there anymore IMO. Maybe we should just go being just woodworking and kill the cafe all together. I have to say though the "another bug" thing this far into the change should make you ponder.
Thanks Gina
Gina,
Thanks for giving us at least a hint of what you / FWW are dealing with. Clearly, times are still tough, and whether we like it or not, things have shifted and will probably not return to the way we remember things. I fly a fair amount and the instant I hear we have a 15 minute delay I know that 99 percent of the time that is not true. I have learned 15 minutes borders on an outright lie. It means we don't know when or how long or even if. Typically, I can pleasantly and privately ask, what is reality and they will say, we don't know, it depends on this or that. That is more truthful, than 15 minutes every 15 minutes.
Thank you have giving us a bit of reality in acknowledging there are technical issues, they have been put on a back burner, and you don't know when they will be dealt with. It is obvious there are technical issues, but it is wonderful to hear FWW say so. I have to deal with similar issues in my workplace. Customers are more understanding, even helpful, when you tell them what really is happening.
Knots Forum is a very public face for FWW. It is helpful in creating your image (or hurting it) of fine quality craftsmanship. I first subscribed to FWW when I was young, before computers (the PC). KF has kept me loyal to FWW because of the added value of what I have learned, and I hope have been a contributor to on occasion, from many who were/are more highly skilled than me.
Since I wasn't in on the staff meeting when FWW first created the Cafe, I don't know exactly why they set it up, but if wouldn't surprise me if it was set up as a way to keep woodworkers here on Knots Forum and allowing them to talk about things other than woodworking. As a past president and long time board member of a woodworking club, Knots Forum is not a lot different. Each meeting has 2 or 3 different primary woodworking topics, or 1 main and one secondary and before and after the meeting the people (men and women) talk politics, religion, camping, model trains, birthdays, grandkids, kids, cars, whatever . . .
Knots Forum, including the Cafe, mirrors / reflects a group of woodworkers coming together to talk about woodworking and life in general.
And we don't all agree on things. Some argue strongly -- and then are soon complimenting each other's workmanship on a woodworking piece they have made. Yes, some call each other names and go away mad. I don't like that kind of arguing, but it is part of the human condition. Some leave the club or unsubscribe to the magazine. Thats human.
Now, if search engines can inflitrate the cafe, then think of what they can do to the Forum! So, I would guess that killing the Cafe won't protect the Forum. Sounds like that is a technical issue that needs to be dealt with either way.
Although I don't spend much time in the cafe, other than just to see what is being talked about, if killing it will give FWW staff time to "fix" the overall Knots Forum, then please kill it immediately. Would be nice if it could be there for those who like it, but if it is standing in the way of returning Knots to the performance and value it used to be, then kill the cafe immediately.
I imagine there has been disucssion about deleting Knots Forum. Hope you won't. Historically it was the best place you could come and get quick answers from very skilled woodoworkers. Thankfully, there are still some around on Knots.
I had a discussion with one of the editors there by phone at FWW some years ago about a "survey" FWW was taking. They talked to woodworkers geographically close to your shop, mostly in Connecticut, thinking their opinions and thinking were typical of woodworkers in general. Anyone that knew anything about surveys and the demographics of Connecticut / Metro NY was laughing and crying about such. Connecticut may be where a lot of money is, but it is not typical of John Q. America. Thankfully, FWW changed its decision and profited, financially as well as readership/viewships increases, as a result of re-thinking their initial decision.
Why that paragraph? Like the NPR snafu over the last few days, if your vision of the world is that everyone in the world is just like you and your friends, then you are going to make many mistakes in trying to do business with the rest of the world (even just in the U.S.) Connecticut/NYC is much different than the rest of the U.S.
Popular Woodworking (pardon for saying their name here) is probably growing because they are based more in (putting them more in touch with) the middle of the country, they travel and participate in woodworking shows in towns where Joe Woodworker lives. Don't think I have ever seen a FWW display in any woodworking show in the Mid Atlantic states where I live and travel to shows. Yes, even PopWood people can get to be a bit elitist but certain of them are down to earth and talk with us "common" people very comfortably. They generally remember the humble family life they came from.
Long winded. But, thanks for being up front with us. Don't censor topics in the cafe. Yes, if someone is name calling and coming unglued, chastise them, limit them (after all, it is your ball) until they behave. However, if deleting the Cafe gives you time to get Knots back on track and being what it used to be, then close the Cafe. If your owners don't have a clue about the common woodworker, then you almost can't prevent the slow demise of FWW. Hopefully that won't happen. I would hate to lose what FWW has been. Get out of the office and come attend woodworking shows. (Seems like there used to be tv commercials about such concepts in getting to know one's customers!!!!)
Pardon the length of this epistle. We want you / FWW to succeed. But if you don't know who we are, what we think, what we value, then you won't succeed.
IMHO -
Alan - planesaw
To FWW:
I fully recognize Knots Forum is FWW's space and we are invited and allowed to participate. And I appreciate it. Over the 8, or however many, years I have been on here I have learned a lot. Historically, in my opinion, it was the best "forum" listserve or whatever you want to call it.
However, I don't understand setting up the "cafe" for discussion of just about everything but woodworking and then say, but no religion.
This sounds like NPR's current mess it has gotten itself in. Telling people they have to be tolerant means you have to believe what I believe -- if you don't then you are not tolerant.
Like a few others have said, I don't come to Knots to discuss religion. In fact, since so much of the Cafe, at least historically, was anything but woodworking, or included more about non-woodworking than woodworking, I didn't spend much time there.
So I have to agree with someone's comment -- if you don't want religion discussed, close the Cafe.
And I wonder -- What's next, politics you disagree with?
Alan - planesaw
I don't understand.
Why would you want to come to a Woodworking chat forum and discuss religion unless you were building some church pews or an alter or something?
It's not an infringement of your rights. It's just rules, set up for the mutual benefit and enjoyment of the users.
If it's heated debate you want, go to the opinion section of your local on-line newspaper. Most of them allow intolerant, rude, vulgar, incoherent jibberish.
IMHO, Bret
if you could do an old search
I think if you had the history of the site you would see the discussion. If you could do a search of what was discussed a long time ago it was mostly about things other than wood working. Long time ago there were controversial discussions and people complained that they were offended by seeing the discussion thread. It was agreed that you would have to request access (like I spoke about) and unless you did so you would not see the contents of the cafe and not be offended by such awful topics as religion. It was understood that by requesting access you were coming in with eyes wide open. Hope that gives some background.
bones
Mr Bones --
Good reminder. Some Knots posters haven't been around long enough to know much of the history here. Nor have some of the FWW staff involved today.
The cafe was set up for the nonwoodworking discussions of heated, controversial, off the wall, and non-woodworking, etc. discussions. AND, you had to ask to be let in, as you remind us.
Thanks for the reminder.
Alan - planesaw
You are correct that I'm a relative newcommer here.
This is the only Knots I've ever known so I have no opinion of the old Knots. There certainly are some issues with the way the software is formatted, but generally I've enjoyed my time here. It's only been about two years since I entered my fist on-line discussion group of any kind.
The problem with most opinion sites is that some people just need to be right which I find tiresome. However, I did see the thread in the Cafe that had a religion in it's title but I never cared to open it. I'd rather enjoy a human interest story or an anecdote. There have been some good ones there.
If I thought it would help I would complain more.
Bret
Wrong move
Gina et al,
The diatribe on Islam was in bad taste (bordering on the sublime), but I think that banning religion as a topic for the cafe is a wrong decision. The "medicine" in this case is worse than the illness itself. I think you'd find that the occasional weird and even offensive discussion in the cafe, where people have requested to enter, will not diminish the website overall. If, instead of making up rules, you'd spend the energy trying to revitalize the site, I would participate more often. It's not the weird posts that are off-putting; it's the mundane issues of convenient navigation and the dwindling participation of many who used to contribute.
Things are rarely clear cut black-and-white, but you're better off to err on the side of free expression than to become censors.
I think this is complicated by the fact that the post was spam (there's a fair amount of religious spam in email and web forums from the proselytising religions). It wasn't as existing discussion that grew heated and somebody invoked religion or whatever, it was just some guy who probably hit dozens of other forums the same day. In a case like this I think it's entirely appropriate for the moderators to just delete the post like the would for any other spam but I agree that it seems a little heavy-handed to completely ban the topic in what's supposed to be a off-topic group anyway.
Agreed...
David,
Well said. I couldn't agree more with all your points.
I've been a critic of the navigability of this new Knots site in the past and continue to be dismayed that it hasn't improved (last "update" back in March?). It would seem FWW could better spend time on issues like that instead of trying to moderate and control a discussion on what is supposed to be an "open" section of the forum.
Zolton
Too Much To Respond To...
I think it ironic that the sometime part-time editor responds to problems or questions only after serious public prodding, and does absolutely nothing to improve the site, but has time to censor! Direct questions to said editor are redirected and diverted, with only a sideways hint of 'these tough economic times' Meaning of course, that the economy is to blame for the poor shape of the forum, not the Revson character or the bean counters at Taunton.
Now, discussion considered off limits by 'them' is censored, so there is time to police the censorship, but no time to improve the forum? Go to the other Taunton forums and see what is or isn't being done there. Censorship is of course, a sign of much deeper problems. The old Knots and other real forums have successfully handled such subjects, and this was not a problem here - one has to choose to read these things, yes? Was it really a problem for an active forum (the former Knots) or only for one with management by distance, that is now destined to run on its own.
All I can say is God bless you, Taunton, for removing that offensive post and anything else that might offend anyone that doesn't worship the right God. May He forgive you your transgressions and give you the strength to correct your past sins and see clearly for the future for the benefit of us all. My God is not the offensive one, but the One that is benevolent and supportive and the nice clean one that doesn't cause any problems, so hopefully this post won't be removed.
How many insults will the forum readers take before they walk?
Who has deeper problems?
As a paying subscriber of Fww (A WOODWORKING site), I for one would like to be able to follow threads in the forum without having to filter through dozens of off topic posts. What is it about religion that makes people feel the over powering need to inflict their beliefs on everyone? Here's a guy who in one sentence is chastising Taunton for censorship and claiming that censorship is an indicator of much deeper problems. In the next paragrahp he then praises them for censoring what he doesn't believe in. Uh, did I miss something here? No, I don't choose to read posts from disingenuous people who can't keep a straight thought. Arguing the right to state your beliefs under freedom of speech may be true to a point, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's just plain rude and inconsiderate of everyone else's right to get what they paid for without off topic intrusions. I don't come here to read about Jesus, Obama, Bush or anyone else not holding a hand plane. This entire thread illustrates how quickly the topic of religion will kill a forum. This is why as a moderator of a (WOODWORKING) forum, Gina is perfectly correct in respectfully requesting that people avoid religion, politics or any other empassioned non-woodworking topic. Yes, unfortunately this comment is off topic as well, so can we get back to talking maple, Festool or something constructive?.
By the way, "Freedom of
By the way, "Freedom of speech" is a protection against GOVERNMENT censorship, private entities can forbid what ever they wish.
Of course, the Cafe was originally designed just so folks wouldn't have to sort through off topic comments. It just isn't as separate as it used to be. But religion is particularly contentious. I won't miss discussions in that arena.
I wasn't insulted at all
Since I watched the circumstances unfold, I wasn't insulted by Taunton's decision to establish a basis for deleting religious spam.
No Rules
Enter at your own risk
Reading a post you don't agree with and then complaning about the content is like watching a TV show you don't like. The forum I believe was set up for discussion of a variety of topics brought to the forum from fellow woodworkers. Censorship should be done by the individual reader not the forum.
Fear
FWW probably got a few complaints and they're running scared.
Hmmnnn....
I should probably let this go... but respectfully, I don't know if "scared" is the right word. I just have a to-do list miles long.
Playing moderator is probably not the best use of my salary.
Gavel People
I have never browsed the cafe so can't comment on the content. Prior to the change, you had a few designated "Gavel Wielding" Moderators who would help keep an eye on things.
Maybe you could lure them back
Don
By religious do you mean shellac vs. wipeon poly or Festool vs. everybody else? Sorry sometimes it's hard not to be a smartaleck
Thanks for moderating
Troy
Nah it is even more . . . ________ (the word escapes me)
>By religious do you mean shellac vs. wipeon poly<
It is more along the lines of when standing at the great sharp edge giving kitchen sink of water stone preparation one must always stand mostly, but not entirely on the leg closest to the kitchen cabinet. Never vary this, mostly, else planned projects
WILL MOST CERTAINLY FAIL
in a fiery ball of chaose and too many interrupting solicitary phone calls. No I'm serious,
I read it. It's true.
Let me see if I got this right. No replies to all the legitimate gripes about the mess this forum is in, but Taunton will intervene to prevent "religious discussions?"
I keep waiting for the punch line.
In defense of Fine woodworking
To all: If you go to many of the other WW forums, you will find that Religion, Politics, Sex etc.etc. are prohibited there and not tolerated "period" What is wrong with some rules ? Gee, OWWM says you can't talk about a machine younger than 10yo. Rules are rules.
Awhile back there were some heated talks about Politics and Religion but unfortunately and regrettably I chimed in. I now actually like the rule Idea,
But I will miss talking about Christmas presents, Oops, "Seasonal" presents.
re: that season
Consumerism is a religion now? Oh, boy, are we in trouble now. ;-)
Not much consumerism, We go weekly to a Special "House" and I make many "Seasonal" gifts. And We still honor the Real Seasonal reason. Is that cloaked enough to be OK.
cloaking
Chuckle (of the approving kind).
but... but.... woodworking is my religion! Its what I do on sunday mornings......and monday and tues. et. all. Sawdust is my insence............
I thought they were fishermen.........
Well yah in the warm months but
When the waters would freeze over they stayed in and worked the wood. Well when they were liv'in up in Canada that is; they moved around some. They couldn't put their whole gig in the book. You know how publishers are; slash that, rewrite this to make it more appealing to a younger audience etc.,etc,etc.
sandals and robes.... in Canada! No wonder christianity flourished... those boys were hardy. Ole Joe ( of Joseph and Mary fame) was a woodworker I guess. Ive been told he post in here still under the name of Joe the Jobber
Carpenter, actually.
And by the fact that he could read and write, we must conclude that he was a trim carpenter, not a framer.
Old school carpenter and wood worker, A purist in fact. He would only use hand tools and proper hand fitted jointery.
NO NAILS PLEASE !!!
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