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Just in case anyone is interested, HGTV has been showing Norm pre “tool time” shows at 4:30PST/7:30EST daily. These are the old shows before he had all of the fancy sponsor tools. This morning he actually did a tenon on the table saw without a jig. These shows are far more informative than his newer ones.
Steve
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I watch Norm hard glue a breadboard end on a pine table top this morning. That thing will eventually split. You have to watch Norm with a jaundiced (critical) eye.
*dfore --Exactly. I know there has been plenty of Norm-bashing in the past, so I don't want to get things started yet again, but I do find that he's incredibly erratic. One day he glues a breadboard end all the way, and the next he only glues a pin at the center, to allow for movement.Although, I do admit to watching in the mornings as I get ready for the day -- with that same "critical" eye. I pick up some good ideas, between an occasional, "Oh my g**, did you see that?"David
*Norm does do some goofy things in these early shows. However, most of the time when I catch his mistakes its because I've made the same ones. I like these shows because my tools are still better than his.
*One can say a lot about Norm, generally I like him and I suspect that his skills are better than what his show can enable him to reveal. I have found myself moving more toward hand tools, which Norm's show of course uses very little of - back to the sponsor issue.One thing I am thankful to Norm for is that he brings new people into woodworking, which is good for all of us. With out the new demand product development (of tools & materials etc.) would stop or slow down, production would slow down - driving up costs. Even subscriber ship to FWW would be reduced - driving up cost &/or risking its viability. Lastly, woodworking is a wonderful hobby and good in so many ways for those that participate -- so I like that Norm gives the exposure to so many that might not otherwise get exposed.
*I have to disagree that Norm has brought new people to woodworking. If I were just starting out, I would be intimidated to say the least, that you would require all those power tools, to produce what I think is substandard furniture. I’ve spoken to countless people at shows, and the first thing that comes out of their mouth is “ you must have a fancy shop, to make your furniture” These people no doubt have been influenced by The New Yankee Workshop. I tell them, that it would be impossible to make high quality furniture using only power tools (at least the kind I make). By the way my shop is a unheated one car garage, that the car goes into every night.
*This is not a Norm bashing session. I only wanted to point out that his older shows are on and when. You decide if you want to watch them or not.
*Hi Guys:I've enjoyed seeing some of the old shows because you can watch his skills evolve. I remember seeing an early "This Old House" rerun (long before NYW) where he cut a board on a table saw freehand --no fence, guard, push stick, nothing!!!!! Hopefully he doesn't do that anymore.Be safe,Dennis
*Rob,I always enjoy seeing your furniture pictures. Now, you have show some pictures of the one car, unheated garage that these masterpieces come out of. Try to get in some shots of your storage also. Whenever I read FW, after I look at the main object in the picture, I study the shop behind it to check out the tools and storage. Jeff
*Oh, I don't know Denis. I still rip and cross cut timber freehand from time to time on a table saw using a chalk line as my guide. It's not really that hard to do, if you know what you're doing, and when to do it. But I have to admit I never watch The New Yankee Workshop, and know very little about the presenter. Slainte, RJ.
*I must say that Norm and his show are definitely bringing new people to woodworking. Unfortunately a lot may be discouraged seeing his $100,000 (conservative guess) shop. When I first started watching him 5 years ago (I was 15 at the time) I got real sick of seeing the way he does stuff and quickly started looking for alternative methods. Thankfully I found FWW (and for a while American Woodworker until Reader's Digest bought it) and discovered the bounty of ways one can create masterpieces without having an acre of shop space. In the process I also found that many of Norm's methods blow (can I say that??). I especially laugh whenever he takes time to set up his router jig to make his dovetails look "hand cut", then cuts 4 drawers. I'm almost certain I could just cut them by hand quicker. Also, he doesn't really seem to be progressing. By that I mean his projects aren't much more difficult than the original ones, he just is using more expensive tools to do the same thing over and over. True, a lot of the stuff I make now is Shaker and relatively simple, but I'm hoping to be making Chippendale and Sheraton and other high end projects in 10 years. It would seem to me he would want to show his progress as a woodworker and move on to more detailed/complicated projects. Unfortunately, I think too many of his viewers just want to see another simple project they can do in a weekend or two with power tools. Because of that I rarely watch the show anymore and secretly wish a show would come on that showcased truly high end woodworking. Now that I think about it, FWW already has a magazine, books, website, and videos. Can a TV show be far off???Before you go thinking is a total Norm bash, I should add that I think he is in large part controlled by his viewers demands and sponsors desires (read: lots of expensive power tools) and that I don't think we see Norm's full potential on the show.Matt
*Hi Sgian:I cannot believe you would rip a board on a table saw freehand (that is without a fence, splitter, and guard). That is so scary that I shudder to think about it. The slightest twist and you have full blown kickback!If I remember correctly, your table saw is 9 HP. Kickback from that monster is somthing I would not want to see.You have mentioned several times that you don't use dado blades because they are dangerous. Using a table saw freehand is far more dangerous. While I have no doubt about your skill as a woodworker (I enjoyed the pictures of your work) freehanding is an accident waiting to happen. I'm also concerned that some one with less skill than you have might read your comment and think its an acceptable practice.Be Safe --PLEASEDennis
*Denis, That was just the response I was after. Yes, we are talking 9 HP, but not without a riving knife and crown guard. You'd be amazed at the leverage you can exert to open up a kerf with a stout European style riving knife and the length of timber acting as a long lever, especially if we are talking of 16/4 stuff- moments about a point, and all that. You are also dead right; sawing freehand is not an exercise for the inexperienced. I also don't use dado blades. It's true that I push safety in this forum, but I also know that the majority of visitors here are weekend warriors therefore, by definition, they are inexperienced amateurs. Once in a while I like to push the boat out and see what I can stir up. You may have noticed that trait in me too? ;-) To be continued? Questions? Slainte, RJ.
*Matt hit on one of the points I was trying to make. When you judge Norm you have to consider the whole picture. He only has a 30 minute show, of which about 20 minutes (maybe 22 or 23) can be spent on the project because of commercials. By definition of a show of this nature is targeted at the masses, not at professionals or well experienced woodworkers like many of the contributors to this forum, so he is limited to projects that the masses can have some realistic potential of making themselves in the future.Lastly, the show is out of business if it doesn't have advertisers. The makers of high-end tools don't target the masses, the makers of consumer brands like Delta target the masses. Hense, He has to do projects that show off their tools and when completed can be edited down to 20 minutes. This doesn't give him much of a chance to show off his skills which I believe are better than what can be demonstrated on the show -- Remember he never made furniture for a living, he made houses for a living so there is no question that the pro's in here could clean his clock in terms of quality and capability, but how many of these pro's would look so good in a flanel shirt? :) {Don't read anymore into that than the joke that it was} So come on, what can one expect from a show with those constraints. The show isn't geared toward most of the people in here so most of the people in here naturally won't like it.In the mean time, he does provide some base level of education that a beginner can use to peak their interest, experiment with, and continue to find other sources of information like FWW or Taunton Press material.That being said there is no excuse for not having editors with deep experience to prevent Norm from demonstrating unsafe practices or doing just plane dumb stuff like gluing the entire length of a bread board end of a table top.
*While we are on things that have been ruined by commercialism, lets not forget our own semi-beloved FWW. Look at an old issue and you will see that it was once really mainly a magazine about the craft. Now, although its still the best of the bunch, its mostly there to sell stuff. Plenty of Delta and Home Depot ads in there now: HD never would have bothered with the old magazine. Plus tons of Taunton product: videos, books, more books, woodworking shows, stuff stuff stuff. Yeah, there are still smart, good people writing for it, but its not what it was. Maybe its time for someone new to start a new dull little black and white, unslick magazine focused on high end content rather than selling products.And oh yeah, I agree with Skidoo that freehanding is not as deadly unsafe as you might suspect. I still wouldn't recommend it highly. Twisting the board while doing it is more likely to wreck your saw than you, for the reasons of leverage that he mentions. Kickback occurs mainly between the blade and the fence, remember, so when there is no fence the equation changes considerably.
*hotsawdust - Thank you for your most recent entry into this dull little black and white unslick mag. In case you haven't noticed, FWW/Taunton has very nicely compensated us for the necessary advertising that they have to do to stay profitable. That advertising is paying for the staff and equipment that gives them the opportunity to instantly publish interactive help and advice columns from some of the finest Woodworkers in the world.
*I have watched and enjoyed Norm for years. He is definitely responsible for my initial interest in woodworking. Unfortunately, I think he's also at least partially responsible for me nearly cutting off my thumb on my new table saw (Norm never needs a guard). On the plus side, my wife also watches the show. Whenever she admires one of the projects, it's easy for me to say "Sure Honey, I'd love to build that for you, but how can I do it without the proper power tools?". I think she's starting to catch on, but don't say anything!
*The reason that the original issues looked the way they did wasn't philosophical, it was financial. Taunton couldn't get advertisers in its early stages until it had developed a subscriber base.They could go either way with their commercial success. They could use the advertising dollars to make a better woodworking magazine or they could broaden the subscriber base to sell more advertising. My perception is that FWW has done the former while AWW has most definitely done the latter. It's a decision they make week by week, month by month, but I think FWW has done a real good job with the balancing act to this point.
*Norm's books make me think twice about safety too. I have his first one, and there are many times where he says to: "...carefully lower the workpiece onto the dado stack..."Granted, I'm pretty new at this, but that doesn't seem like the safest way to do things. Also, is there anyone else out there who wishes he would make practical things more often? The only thing that would upset me about his sponsors would be if I thought he was using those fancy tools because he was being pressured to. Ole Norm has enough money and fame already to tell Delta and Porter-Cable to shove it. Keep in mind that Norm is a carpenter at heart, and I think maybe carpenters are more concerned with getting the job done, done quickly, and done with sufficient strength than the artwork aspect of it.-Jeremy
*Norm as a visual model: Norm's show can be beneficial to people like me who have had no experience in a woodworking shop, but are stongly interested in woodworking. I'm an observer by nature when approaching a new venture, although I always reserve the right to do something differently should I so choose.I find it very helpful to tape and watch his shows for specific techniques. I can compare and contrast what I see in his show to things I read in FWW, Wood, etc., and then go on to try it on my own. His penchant for power tools is a running joke between myself and a couple other people I know who have watched the show. That aside, there's nothing like i watching someone do something to work up to doing it yourself. Much more effective than simply reading.I'm not too worried about people being "put off" woodworking by seeing his mega-bucks shop. In all endeavors I've pursued over the past 30 years or so, I've been inspired by the people who were better-equipped and more well-heeled than myself. Sometimes I've been able to meet and beat them, sometimes not, but it's always fun trying!
*I'm sorry you feel the need to get snotty. My points are as follows:A) I think the magazine (the printed magazine, not this sideshow) is a far lesser publication than it used to be.B) I think the reason for this is that the motivation now is to sell product rather than content, and to provide an audience that will respond to ads from the like of Home Depot.C) I would far rather they had stayed small, barely profitable and never expanded into a publishing empire, and instead kept the quality of the content higher.I'm glad you enjoy what happens here, so do I. I just think the magazine is a lot worse than it used to be.
*it seems like a lot of the old pros in here and some of the ones i know are saying that FWW is going downhill. I don't like the home depot ads because i don't think that home depot and fine woodwork even belong in the same sentence. however, i don't mind the ads for the businesses who cater to serious woodworkers. fine woodworking has taught me alot about woodworking and the only thing that bugs me is the magazine isn't bigger and a monthly publication, but maybe that's too much to ask. as for Norm, i used to watch his show from time to time. now i don't bother because my skill level has progressed beyond anything in his show, and personally i think that all those DIY shows are a joke now. all they do is give new woodworkers a false sense of confidence. the only guy i've ever seen with a hand tool was roy underhill, and those other guys have a lineup of unnecessary power tools to do the job. one of the guys actually went as far as to suggest buying premade parts for a project because it was cheaper and more efficient. someone needs a reminder that he's not running a production business, and that the whole point of woodworking is to build things YOURSELF. what's next, we may as well go to Ikea and call ourselves woodworkers becuase we put the furniture together. if you ask me, these guys are giving woodworking a bad name.
*I also used to watch Norm regularly. In fact it was what really wetted my apetite for woodworking.At first I thought that you needed to get all the power tools you could lay your hands on to do a 'precise' job. After getting into woodwork and in particular furniture making, which was about 5 years ago, I then subscribed to FWW and realised that real skill and expertise has nothing to do with 'dedicated mortising machines' etc, but is something that is done by hand and learned with experience. FWW (and this excellent forum)has showed me a lot. I have learnt enough now to recognise that there is a difference between 'woodworking' and 'machine operating'. That is not meant as an offence to all who own planers, jointers etc. I realise that professionals do not have the time to plane 100bf of rough cut timber and still be competitive, but I would guess that all those professionals learnt their trade before using all the fancy machinery.So, in a sense, I am grateful to Norm for starting my interest but have now outgrown him and his brand of 'machinist' woodworking.Kind regards,Ricky Briggs
*Anyone ever watch "The Woodwright's Shop"? Roy Underhill is the host, and only uses historical hand tools. One day he was making little wooden finger puppets and he came up with a little Norm complete with circular saw and safety glasses. He made the little guy dance and pantomimed "Would you like to buy a measure drawing". I never laughed so hard.
*In case anyone's interested in Roy's Shows, here is the PBS website. Roy's sitehttp://www.pbs.org/wws/wwit/index.htmlNorm's sitehttp://www.newyankee.com
*Geez... I guess when people aren't just like "you" guys (insert your name if it applies), they deserve to be trashed! I am a fairly new woodworker and my initial interest was sparked by The New Yankee workshop. I too have seen the transition from a few power tools to every new tool under the sun, but that's corporate sponsorship - and it does provide benefit to us - just not in every way we'd like. I detect a bit of woodworking "snobbery" here that I find as distasteful as Norm's methods do to you. Since woodworking is a hobby for which I don't have enough time for as it is, I have no desire to put 200 hours of effort into one piece of furniture - that's just not for me. If that means I'll never be a "craftsman" according to your terms, then so be it... To each his own - we all have to find our own enjoyment - and there's room for everyone. Even Norm!
*Perhaps Tim Sands should start a "Bash Norm Folder"? We could put it between the Cafe and Finishing. One perpetual thread you can vent your spleen in to your hearts content.Frank
*I absolutely LOVE 'The Woodwright's Shop' even though I'll never be able to do serious hand-tool work (carpal tunnel x 2, shoulder surgery). It just fascinating to see how things worked before 220 and 110. I would actually like to try my hand at a pedal lathe some day.I have a great deal of respect for Roy Underhill, both as a woodworker, and as a teacher who is passing along traditions that might otherwise die out.
*Hey, I ain't bashing Norm--he kicks my ass as far as skills go. But you gotta admit that Roy Underhill is a funny guy.
*First, this is not intended to be snooty or offensive. If anyone takes this that way, then I'm sorry.For those that feel the need to bash, my only advice is that which my father gave me, "Everytime you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you". Steve :)
*I started a thread once--"Norm-woodworker or fraud" Norm leaves the impression that anyony can just go out and buy a bunch of equipment and start building furniture.This is a major deception! There is a reason for learning handwork first.--It helps you to understand how wood reacts to cutting tools. When you learn hand tools,you learn how to work efficiently. When you master hand working go out and buy the machines as you will have a much better understanding of what your doing. Norm is a master carpenter but is a complete novice in a fine furniture setting. And novices have no business teaching others! I still recall him using yellow glue on teak!!
*I'm not sure it's so much Norm who's bashable as it is the production and increased commercialism of the show. Norm seems to be a nice enough guy and is obviously skilled, maybe more as a carpenter, but that and his visibility on TOH are responsible for New Yankee Workshop. I'm sure many people around here would rather see "Tage's Scandinavian Workshop'" or "Read the Grain with Krenov" or whatever, I know I would, but most of America might not, or at least PBS doesn't think so. As to the shows on HGTV, I definitely like seeing the older shows, if for no other reason than that then Norm used those tools he preferred of those sent to him, as opposed to using primarily those from two "sponsors." Anyway, I also first became interested in this stuff watching This Old House and New Yankee Workshop, so I'm grateful there was SOMETHING in this area on, but that doesn't mean it's as good as it could be, or was.
*I have admired Norm ever since he came on television. I have met him personally and he comes across as nice as he does on tv. I totally respect his skills and knowledge of construction. Big business is running the show, and Norm just was in the right place at the right time. I think he has kept his down to earth instincts as well as anyone of us would.I will never take down his signed picture hanging in my shop.
*Drew,Where you been man?Frank
*Been busy as heck.Recession has hurt the big shops a bit but smaller shops like mine that get more into furniture and restoration are all swamped.Have a set of handcarved chairs due Mon so it's another weekend with no beer! I can't wait for a week or two to do some backpacking before Bush/Cheney cut down all the trees for a few drops of oil. Also been messin with the dittoheads on some of rush's sites They love my nickname-"rushisaliar" I kept searching my mailbox for Norm's Xmas card but he forgot me again!
*You guys are a riot. I'm really new to this site, and have gotten a kick out of the banter that goes on. I have been at my craft for almost 30 years. I agree with some of the stuff, disagree with some of it. As for Norm, my gripe is that he makes it look too easy. We all know how long it takes to make special jigs. He blows right through that process. You want to see a good woodworker, look at his or her jigs....ah, well, you know what I mean. I catch a couple of things from him from time to time, but I dislike being compared to him. Which is what potential clients want to do. They think I can whip out a project in a weekend, and charge accordingly. As for using the table saw without a fence, I'd rather hand chisel it apart first. Last note, Did anyone ever see the episode where Norm was bending a kerfed piece of Mahogany around some kind of base and it broke? That show I really related to. Norm usually never shows us failure, and we all know that failure, or setback have you, is part of the process. Fixing mistakes is also a true sign of a good craftsman. Have a good weekend gents.
*I am a weekend warrior.... thanks sgian for the vote of confidence:) The difference between a pro and myself is that I cannot afford to work wood for a living although I live to work wood. If I could retire and spend the remaining years working wood as a business, I would be very happy.Norm is all right, but my biggest grip is that an introductory show like his does not show the whole story. In fact, modern woodworking tool companies dont want you to know that vintage machines are out there. David Marks on woodworks on the other hand has the brass spheres to show off vintage iron in his shop. I think this is both great and more realistic. The vast majority of the guys I know who are hard core have tools that were bought cheap and used and lovingly restored. This aspect of norms show is clearly absent and a bit unrealistic. No one except the most well healed will have shiny brand new gear... first, its too expensive... second, not all the new gear is the best choice in tools. When you see the shops of the real masters, you will often see oliver, yates and northfield among a few others. There is a reason its there!
*I've been hearing so much about how good all of this old equipment is that I now want someone to prove it. Does anyone care to take a challenge and put the new up against the old. We can start a new discussion if there's anyone interested.
*The "Old" equipment is a way of life on how to build something. Its not the age. In fact, I avoid stuff that is actually OLD! The range is from about 1935/40 to about 1970. My oliver 299 planer was made in about 1968. That planer today can be purchased by special order from oliver for 27,000 dollars. You can also get hoffmans brand new that built along the same methods... lots of precision machined cast iron. A TF-1200 hoffman shaper will take almost a year to order from germany and set you back a cool 16,500 dollars! So by taking a bit of surface rust and some worn and chipped paint, you can get a machine for a fraction of this that performs, once tuned up, as well as it did new. I am the fourth owner of my T-17 martin table saw. New, it sold for around 20,000 dollars. I have cleaned it up and tuned it up. Had to re-machine a few items as well. But today, I doubt that there is a "new" machine out there in the same price range that can compete. I also doubt that my saw can compete against a new martin. But then, your comparing a used 2000 dollar saw against a new 35,000 dollar saw. When it comes to jointers, many of the vintage tanks are 12 inch to 20 inch jointers. Now 20 inches is probably more than most folks need, but a 12 incher is nice. What new equipment can you throw at this 12 incher so that you are comparing apples with apples? A new northfield 12 HD comes to mind. But that is only about 12,000 dollars american. Point is, for most of us, the industrial rejects are more machine than we will ever master and we can get them at pennies on the dollar is we play the game correctly. Last but not least, many of these older machines just look super cool when they are restored with fresh paint and a good naval jelly rub down, etc.
*Well, I have a complete shop of vintage Delta/Rockwell/Cresecent, from a small scroll saw right through a large 16" radial arm saw. 1930's through 1970,s, with a 1980 or so in there. It is exeptional quality machinery. none of this equipment was out of range. It was relative in cost to the new import machines. A little more. But with a little education, a couple of extra bucks, I was able to amass this collection. Now, I do live in Los Angeles where the availability is very high. My point is this though, set a budget, find the import that matches it, then go look for the equivelent Delta/rockwell, or yates, oliver, what have you. Then if you don't find one, buy the other. You're right, it's probably more machine than you'll ever need for a part timer.
*Drew,How are you going to get to your backpacking trip?
*I must take offense to all who bash Norm. He is the reason that I got into woodworking. I found it intriguing to build with my hands. I found his quality of work very good. Granted, he does some things different on some days, but I feel he is just showing the audience that there are different ways to go about it. I love watching him work. On top of that, he seems like a pretty good guy.
*Rob, I'll get to a point where I just say "I'm going no matter what" Then I'll go a month or two later. Last trip,I drove from S.Fla to Durango,Colorada and spent a week in the Rockies. Have also done Sierra's a few times (topped Mt Whitney twice) Would like to see the Eastern mts one of these days. It's my only chance to see the leaves change and maybe a bit of snow (not to much)
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