I have an old 10″ Delta contractors saw that is ready to go to it’s next owner. So I’m looking at TS’s and then come across the battle-threads of EZ vs Festool vs whatever. Have read through many of those threads and I keep thinking do I even need a TS anymore?
Seems like between my 14″ Griz bandsaw and one of the guiderail systems I could save some bucks and do some adding on to other tools systems (routers, jointers, etc).
I’m definitly NOT looking to start another “discussion thread” I’m mearly looking for some thoughts and any experienced guidance is appreciated.
billw2
Replies
I've never considered a guided saw system because I don't usually do much with sheet goods. I recognize that there are many ways to accomplish the same thing with different tools or techniques, both powered or unpowered. But I can't see a way of replacing my table saw without having to have a lot of other different pieces of equipment to do the same work. The table saw has proven its versatility and will probably always play an important and prominent role in my hobby shop. You have to make the best decision for yourself, based on what you do.
A few montha ago, I was looking for an easier way to handle sheet goods and ran into the guided tool systems. After using one for a few months and seeing what it can do, I can see the day coming when I will no longer have a table saw. I do commerical woodworking so it will take a little while for me to rethink how to do things.
In looking at the guided tool systems available, I wanted the most versatile system available. Also I had already had 5 circular saws and 30 routers so buying more of those wasn't high on my list of things to do. I looked for the best rail system. The EZ system had the strongest rail, the only self aligning dovetail jointing system, the only bi-directional rail, and the only system to offer anti-chip on both sides of the cut.
Since my bread and butter is kitchen cabinets, I needed to be able to do repeat cuts. EZ Smart was just coming out with the repeaters. For rip cuts, you set them kind of like setting the rip fence on your table saw. Until you need a different size, it is simply slide and cut.
Also, you can use one repeater with the new square that has just been introduced. You just slide the square on the rail and tighten two screws.
Another thing that I was looking for was an easy way to straight line rip hardwood. The EZ is the best way I have found. Just lay your guide rail down, clamp and cut. There are no offsets to consider.
The router kit is just super and the carrier system also works for several other portable power tools such as a hand held planer, jig saw, etc.
I don't want to go on and on and bore you. Please feel free to ask an questions you like.
Overall, I find the EZ System to be as fast if not faster than a table saw. The best thing is it takes a lot less effort to get the job done. Dino would say that it is "EZ". It is the only guided tool system designed to replace the table saw.
Edited 1/28/2006 4:03 pm ET by Burts
Edited 1/28/2006 4:04 pm ET by Burts
I have been using the EZ smart guide rail system for about a year or so and find new uses for it all the time. I just ordered the square and will be ordering the repeater shortly.
I think this system may eliminate the need for a table saw. It will probably be slow in doing so as most carpenters I know are slow to accept change and the table saw is well established - but, as you begin to think differently with the guide system, I don't think there is much you will need a table saw for.
I know I am making better cuts in a safer manner that I had in the past, and I only have the basic rails so far.
I would highly recommend buying an EZ smart system and holding off on the table saw - see if you really need it.
This is another of those topics that might send us "off to the races."
I own the Festool, and I think all these guide systems are great for sheet goods, but I can't imagine giving up my table saw.
But I think a lot depends on what type of work you do. If you do mainly casework, then I suppose you might get pretty far without a table saw. But if that is your objective, I would counsel the EZ system, since I think it is a lot more versatile than Festool.
On the other hand, you need to look carefully at the MFT table from Festool, and see how it stacks up functionally for you vs. EZ.
The thing is, if you bought all the EZ stuff (instead of Festool), you'd probably have enough money left over to buy another TS.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I took a good look at that MFT table this morning for the first time. I like the tracks around the edges and the way the accessories clamp to the table to work a whole lot like a table saw set-up.
A while back I saw Dino's tenoning set-up on his web site, where he mounted a track on the front ot the EZ Table to hold the stock vertical and a second track on top to hold the router he milled it with. It got me thinking, and I toyed around with a concept or two that would use the EZ tracks around a custom built table, sort of a hybrid between the two table designs.
Even though I'd never reviewed the Festool tables, a lot of what they've done is the maturation of some of the concepts I've been mushing around in my head. I think it will all get a lot better pretty soon.
I'm envisioning tracks locked to tracks, supporting jigs that can achieve things that are presently impossible on the table saw. The old fashioned shooting boards are headed for three axis capabilities that will really expand on the table saw's capacity.
I was encouraged to see that superior minds are already way ahead of my rudamentary concepts. I think the industry will make a strong move in that direction pretty quickly as some of these better ideas start gelling well enough to spark the same level of innovation that craftsmen brought to the table saw once they collectively got the vision.
It won't be long before this type of thread takes over the shortsightedness of the EZ vs. Festool debates. People are catching on!
I think a lot depends on what you use your table saw for. This past week I used mine with dado blades to cut rabbets and ploughs, can a tool guide do that? I ripped some 1/2" x 1/4" strips for applied cockbeading. Afterwards, I used the miter gauge to miter the small pieces. I was able to put a sanding disk on my saw and I can also use a molding head. There are many other accessories and jigs that I can mount or use with my table saw, from auto stock feeders to tenon jigs and sleds. All of which are crucial to my woodworking. I can easily handle cutting 1/32" off a 1" x 16' strip of lumber or handle a 2" x 2" x 1/4" piece of masonite. Of course, there are many good quality blades I can put on the table saw that are avail;able and designed for specific purposes. I don't think you can do any of these operations as easily or accurately with a tool guide. I can do most of what a tool guide can do with a couple clamps and a straight board.
If you are getting poor results from your contractor saw, It's probably time to do a tune up and make some adjustments As far as my shop goes, the table saw is the number one must have while a tool guide has little or no use.
When you have a few minutes, go to http://WWW.eurekazone.com While you you are there take a look first at the Photo Gallery and then take a look at Dino's Gallery. I'm sure you'll be surprised to see all the uses of the guided tool systems and Dino is still adding new ones!
"I don't think you can do any of these operations as easily or accurately with a tool guide."
Most, but not all, of the techniques you described can be done with a well accessorized EZ guide. IMHO the dado and molder blades are an exception where the router, as an alternative, still doesn't stack up.
It is worth noting that you rely on accessories for many of the items on your list. The table saw has been around long enough that accessory jigs and fixtures are available for just about everything you might want to do with it. If you can't find what you need, someone has probably written a book telling you how to build it.
Guide systems beyond "shooting board" applications are still in their infancy. It's pretty remarkable that people are already seeing the potential well enough to even ask this question with a straight face. That takes some vision and forethought - it's encouraging.
It may take a while for the concept to catch fire, and accessory development to catch up, but I do see a day when saw guide systems will certainly contend with the table saw, on every single front, and surpass it in most. I don't know how long that will take but I'm comfortable with my money on the EZ Guide getting there first. It's way ahead of the curve in guide development already.
I would evaluate all the stuff you do with your table saw and see if you can imagine doing the same thing with an accessorised guide. If you can think of something you use your table saw for, that you can't do with the guide, or another tool you already own, then evaluate whether you would be ahead to sink your money in a table saw over that one or two items, or buy a guide system and a separate tool designed specifically for those needs.
For the everyday table saw functions, I'm a little faster and more accurate with my EZ guides, accessorized with the EZ square, than I am with my table saw. It's definitely easier on my back and safer to boot. I have the repeaters on the way and I'm pretty sure they will take care of most of the things that I still slightly favor the table saw for.
If my table saw ever dies, I'm willing to live with my router for dados and will probably not replace it. For what I use a table saw for, it would be hard for me to justify the expense now that I've built up my guide system a bit.
It's not as big a gamble for me as it might be for others because I don't make my living with the tools. Also, if I have a need to get fancy, and I can't figure out a way to make the guides do the job, I've got friends with cabinet saws that always welcome a visit.
Bill
I've been running table saws for about 30 plus years now. I just recently bought the EZ system.
I dont think I will be giving my table saw away just yet though.
I build cabinets and do some milwork. I have shapers, routers and all kinds of other tools, some I dont even know what they are for! :)
On a recent cabinet job I needed to make about 16' of a very unique crown. No way am I going to have knives ground for the shaper and I didnt see any quick and easy way to make the crown with router bits so I went to the one tool that I knew could do the job, my table saw!
It probably took me all of two hours, counting the sanding, to produce the crown moulding. That said I dont see myself giving up the one tool that has been with me longer then any other that I own.
Thanks to the guide system I do know that I will not run sheet good across a damn table saw again. Every day that I use the EZ I find different uses for it, but I dont see the day getting that close where I sell the TS. My back loves the EZ as well!
Doug
Having a good guide system on hand definitly increases the life span of your table saw. It's almost worth the nominal cost on that merit alone.
I think the days of panel processing on a table saw will be fading into history well within my lifetime. There are definitely some things a table saw does that will take some head scratching to replicate with a guide though.
Maybe we could entice Dino into setting aside his fluted columns and going head to head on some crown molding. If it can be done with a guide, he'll probably be the first one to figure out how. He would have it figured out by tomorrow if his beloved Fiat was on the line. <G>
Kevin
If it can be done with a guide, he'll probably be the first one to figure out how.
Thats funny, I catch myself trying to figure out how I'd do it!
I'm finishing up a big job and its supposed to be done by this Sunday but it wont be! I'll be a week or two over schedual but the homeowners are OK with that. I didnt get to go home to Iowa because of this job and I'm headed their as soon as I'm done.
If not for the reasons stated above I would probably take the time to figure out how to do the crown with the EZ. It has a spinning blade, same as a table saw!
Doug
It's just a matter of having the time and experience to get creative, and the tools to get creative with.
We still need a better saw. The Festool, Hilti, Porter Cable and Makita fiber cement saws all offer better dust collection than a table saw but the cut depth is lacking. With a 190mm (7 1/2") blade on the PC and Makita, you can cut 2x material with all of the good dust collection guide saws, but it's not always enough. The bigger circular saws look too cumbersome for every cut on a guide and they don't have dust collection.
There are still those cuts that I need more depth than my Bosh and EZ combination will give me, but they are so infrequent they don't justify wrestling with a giant saw on the guide system for every cut either. For that reason, I find that I still fire up the table saw for a very simple cut sometimes.
Then again, maybe there is a better guide system answer for those cuts too. Here is an application where a little guide system ingenuity acomplished something that would have been nearly impossible for the table saw:
My stairs are open riser with 3'-0" long chunks of 3" thick glulam beams bolted to double 2x12 floating risers for the treads. (see attached) Those three foot chunks were cut down from a 24 footer and the risers were glued together before I notched them. We're not throwing those beams on the crosscut sled, but my circular saw didn't have the depth of cut I needed!
I marked it all out, front and back, cut one side with the EZ square, flipped it and cut the other side. I didn't get it aligned perfectly on every cut so it took some belt sander work to clean it up. If I had taken the time to build a jig that would have aligned two EZ guide tracks, top and bottom, it would have effectively wrapped the saw around the beam and the alignment would have been perfect.
Alternatively, I could have had a good breakfast, yanked the saw blade off my EZ circular saw, slapped a Prazi beam cutter on, grabbed the EZ Smart square and had the whole assembly bolted together before noon. I don't know why it didn't occur to me at the time. That Prazi would have paid for itself in about three cuts.
Maybe the ultimate would be a 7 1/4" circular saw with a precision chain saw attachment that makes furniture grade cuts...
Maybe the ultimate would be a 7 1/4" circular saw with a precision chain saw attachment that makes furniture grade cuts...
See a need, fill a need!
You mentioned a 7 1/2" saw blade, can you put one on your saw? There are times that I'd like to cut double layers of ply and I cant get through it with the saw on the rail, I know that I can use the saw along side of the guide but I'd prefer to not do it that way.
What are you doing for a handrail on those stairs?
Doug
That's an old photo - It's now got an oak handrail on the wall that I took out of an early 1900's High School my firm remodeled. The open side is still open and I plan to leave it that way until my wife wins the argument. We are expecting again so I figure I've got nine months - Maybe more if I can hold my ground on the premise that it's not a problem until the baby can crawl. If my 4 year old spider man bungee jumps off of it again though, I'm toast.
There will probably be a horizontal oak strip coming off the end of each tread, mortised into a small diameter tree trunk growing out of the floor around the third tread or so, after Jenny wears me down. The stairs are one of the first things you see when you come in so it's important to keep them looking substantial but transparent. I can't stuff my son's head through the riser openings so I'm probably ok there.
As to the blade, I can't speak for every saw but I've got plenty of room on my Bosh for a 7 1/2" blade. I suspect most saws were engineered to work with either metric or American blades. For some reason the metric blades are just bigger. One more proof that metric folks are smarter. I ordered a 7 1/2" Makita chop saw blade last year and cut a few 2x's on my EZ guides with tip to spare. The problem is that it's not thin kerf, and the rake isn't good for ripping, so I got burn marks and binding on sheet goods. Ah well, live and learn - I now know it's doable, just need a blade engineered for what I'm asking it to do.
I've found several 190mm, 40 tooth, thin kerf, general purpose blades on the internet but haven't bought one yet. Trend and Newblade seem to be the manufacturers with the most hits but I don't know a thing about their quality. Most of the metric blades come with a 30mm arbor hole but a 15.9mm (5/8") reducer washer is offered for pennys (or pounds) by just about every manufacturer I found.
Thanks Kevin
As for the handrail, glass is transparent! I might be a bit nervous without one but heck, its your house.
Doug
Re: better sawsWith the impact Festool is having, and the growing concern in the world of wwing about dc, you just have to believe that someone in the the B&D Empire (or Makita, Bosch, Hitachi, etc.) has got to be plotting a design for a better CS.Do you know if Dino has considered making his rails from slightly thinner stock -- whereby you could cut 2X material with a conventional 7 1/4" blade? I assume he makes the rails from some kind of stock material, so making them thinner would be prohibitively expensive. Also, do you know if they simply deleted the EZ thread at BT, or have they banished Dino as well?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I'm here Nikki,
Today I test a new 7-1/4" saw that can cut thru 2x4 materials.
Stay tuned for the ez line of power tools.
If you visit Fog today you will see how the same people who trying to downplay the ez inventions on all forums and starting fights for no reason, The very same group are displaying photos and drawings how to copy the ez repeaters.
They even name it the F- repeaters.
It's going to be funny dealing with the "army of crying F-babies."
Be very proud.
YCF Dino
OK, if you are going to get into power tools let me trot out my CS wish list:
1) Balance on par with the left blade PC (hard to do with left side motor torque - soft start might help)2) Factory notched for the EZ rail and anti chip inserts - no auxiliary base3) Adjustable side to side pivot (Rear pivot preferred)4) Variable speed - 13 Amp ok, 15 Amp better5) Blade brake6) Can handle a Dado Blade (preferably 8" but not a must) - hence the variable speed wish7) For that matter, 8", or 8 1/4" blades would be nice - I consider 2x thickness a minimum requirement8) Dust collection on par with the Makita Fiber Cement saw9) 50 degree miter capacity10) The ability to cant the blade to the guide- crown molding style (Ok, so maybe that one has some Darwin award liabilities - never mind, we can make a jig)
Demanding little sucker ain't I? Might as well make it as quiet as an induction motor at half the weight while your at it. <Grin>
Let me take a wild guess on the color - Fiat green? I like it!!
Demanding little sucker ain't I? Might as well make it as quiet as an induction motor at half the weight while your at it. <Grin>
Nohhh!!
we may need two saws for all the above.
Back to work
YCf D
You could have saved yourself some trouble and just asked me first <Grin>
If I may pry a bit further - are you developing a line of EZ tools from scratch or improving tools that are already on the market? Can I get a peak behind the curtain without getting shot?
Hey, I just checked out your site - Looks like the shoemakers elves dropped in while I was sleeping. Subtle but helpful touchups - good work!
Do you know if Dino has considered making his rails from slightly thinner stock -- whereby you could cut 2X material with a conventional 7 1/4" blade? I assume he makes the rails from some kind of stock material, so making them thinner would be prohibitively expensive.
We need the rails to be very strong.
Today the first cut with the Fence/square by a user was 0.001" in 48".
The ez is designed to accept many ...surprices.
Woodworking from a "real" guide system is fun - safe- fast accurate and out of this world. The versatility too.
If we can get the ok from our F-friends.
YCf Dino
Edited 2/2/2006 12:00 am ET by dinothecarpenter
I'm glad to see the Taunton people didn't kick you out. And I'll bet you are getting a kick out of all this Festool vs. EZ stuff..............Hang in there; this too shall pass..............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
this too shall pass..............
Yea, like a kidney stone... Excited as I am to see folks catching on enough to try and patchwork their guides with some of Dino's innovation, I can't help wishing the antagonistic copycats just such an experience.
Never-the-less, the Festool and EZ guides will both keep getting better as long as Dino is around. That's good for all of us! Sure makes you understand the need for those 500+ EZ patents though doesn't it?
Bill,
I've used the EZ guide since august. I straight edged and ripped 2000bf of 12' cypress before running it through moulder. I couldn't done this as fast using joiner and table saw. I have for the last twenty years owned a job-site table saw. That saw will be sold and I won't get another because everything I do on site, I can do with EZ guide. The tablesaw in my shop with be staying. I don't think the EZ guide replaces everything I can do with it. Good luck
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