All,
The June/July issue of Woodcraft magazine has an article about Stanley coming out with a new line of hand planes. Apparently they are following closely the footsteps of Wood River in trying to come up with much better quality planes at a reasonable price. I don’t know where they got the idea, but they will be called “Sweetheart” planes. They are made of ductile iron, have 1/8″ thick A2 irons, fully machined frogs and soles, cherry totes, “unique locking Norris-style” adjusters, adjustable mouths, etc. The new No. 4 will have a bevel-up iron.
The prices will be low. The 9 1/2 block plane is $100. 60 1/2 is $100. No. 4 is a bit pricier than the Wood River at $180. and a low angle Jack will also be $180.
I have not yet seen these, and have no idea of how well they work. I think this is an interesting follow up to the Wood River planes. When I first saw the Wood Rivers, I felt that they were a harbinger of things to come – better planes at a lower price. I have now used some Wood Rivers that someone else sharpened. THey could have been sharpened much better, but they worked rather well. They are a BIG step up from the Groz and previous Stanleys, but I’d still rather have my Lie Nielsens. Now we see Stanley coming out with something to compete with the Wood Rivers, but at a slightly higher price. It will be interesting to see how this all goes.
I hope Stanley gets it right this time. Wood River didn’t reach the LN or LV marks but they made great strides and their story may be just beginning. I would certainly rather buy a new Wood River than an “user” Stanley from the old days.
The world’s ability to turn out high quality tools at a lower price is something that is here to stay. LN and LV have set high standards. Let’s see the entrepreneurs can do.
I wonder if collectors will snap up initial copies of the new Stanley “Sweethearts” in the hopes of making a killing over time. For them, quality will not be an issue.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Mel:
I've seen the new Stanley #4 and low angle jack planes and was dissappointed. The castings are crudely milled, the tote is coarse and poorly shaped (at least it has plenty of wood so you can reshape/refine it). The lever cap is sort of a clam shell design, hollow on the underside with ribs to hold it together, very lightweight. The Norris style adjuster didn't work all that well either. I didn't get to put them to wood so I have no idea how well they work.
The No. 4 I handled is not a bevel up plane, it is bevel down. The frog is part of the casting and the plane has an adjustable mouth, but the iron is bedded bevel down. The Sweetheart logo is a throw back to the early 1900's when Stanley made quality planes. Do a google search on Stanley Sweetheart and you can read the history of this logo. It's a shame these new planes aren't finished out as nicely as the original Sweetheart planes. I doubt many collectors will be rushing out to snatch these up.
gdblake
GD,
Thanks for the info on the new Stanley Sweetheart planes. I am disappointed to hear they are are not so good, but not surprised. I was looking for info, and now I have it. I am impressed that Wood River is trying to improve quality. But given that the new Stanleys are as bad as you say, it is doubtful they are serious. Oh well. The world does not lack for hand planes, and with Finck's book, anyone can make them. :-)I really appreciate the info you sent.MelPS. I know the old Sweetheart label that Stanley used. I kidding when I said that I didn't know where that idea came from.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Am also disappointed, but am somewhat surprised. A lot of money put out to tool up for this when a change in reputation would only help. Even if it is just a sub operation in Sri Lanka. Some large companies can never get it straight about what to produce at what level for what market. Like auto makers. Or perhaps I have it wrong and they very well know their potential market but at that price point?In truth,this may be just a case reminiscent of the old saw:"They successfully managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...:
BB,
You must be a hammer, because you hit the nail on the head. :-)
I was thinking of General Motors when I wrote my original message but didn't put it down because we have so many "Buy American" folks around here. I wasn't interested in yet another silly debate about the Chinese and the Americans. My guess is now that there is no way for Stanley to pull it out, ----
unless maybe they merge with Fiat :-) and Fiat makes them adopt the standards of Freud ( a great Italian manufacturing firm which uses a lot of red paint). By the way, I did put a new top of the line Freud Fusion blade on my Delta Contractor saw last weekend, and IT HUMS. Very nice. Cuts like the wind. Nicely balanced. Freud is a good example of how a pretty good sized firm can focus on quality, and do well by doing good. Too bad Stanley hasn't figured it out. Maybe they need a little more time. Ha ha ha ha. Have fun.
Sic transit gloria
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bit of trivia, and if I need corrected, please do so: Freud was purchased by Bosch. Bosch many moons ago (think decades) purchased part of the powered hand tool manufacturing from Stanley.
Tony,
Thanks for telling me that Bosch bought Freud. I didn't know that. I just looked it up on Google, and it referred me to FWW magazine, and an article by Tom Begnal which I have copied below.I am impressed with Bosch products and with Freud products. Both seem to focus on quality. Too bad that Stanley missed the mark again. Have you heard anything about that?MelHere is the writeup on Bosch's buying of Freud."Bosch Power Tools announced this morning that it reached an agreement to acquire Freud’s accessory-business. The accessory-business of Freud makes router bits, sawblades, and other cutters.So what does this mean to buyers of Freud products?I talked with Vernon Sides, Freud’s national sales and marketing manager, and learned that the company will operate “business as usual,†making the same products, including power tools, in the same European factories.
The Bosch/Freud announcement can be found at:
http://www.bosch-presse.de/TBWebDB/en-US/PressText.cfm?id=4019
----------------------------------------Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Can't answer your question Mel, as I don't know! Stanley, at one time, had power tools as good as any company. I can't say for certain, but if you look at the Bosch 1600 series routers, for example, you can see the lineage to former Stanley products. Typical for most companies, is not advertising or publicizing acquisitions of this nature, as their marketing departments would prefer potential customers to think of their products as new to the market.
I may have mentioned we manufacture & supply parts to the woodworking portable power tool manufacturers, although not as many as I would like! Sometimes you need a score card to keep track of changes to names & shipping addresses!
T.Z.
You guys must have had your freud trainer come through huh? :) They are nice when free but you MUST make sure the blade stays clean! As soon as any pitch builds up your gonna notice a severe reduction in cut quality. And good luck getting it sharpened properly!Chris
What blades do you like? Forrest?
I actually use a CMT combo. For the most part, my blade choice is irrelevant as I handplane all surfaces. Im really not sure why people make such a stink about cut quality cause it all sands/planes out pretty darn easy. As for using the fusion, I got the freud rep to buy one for me. Badgered him for months cause I wanted to see what the new fusion blade was all about.Chris
Actually, as nice as it would be to have top of the line power and hand tools. Decent hand tools and care seem to produce as good as anything. Yeah, I finish everything with plane and sander so my contractors saw works well enough. It's not how good my tools are, it's me. Whether crap or great.
Hab,
"Decent hand tools and care seem to produce as good as anything. Yeah, I finish everything with plane and sander so my contractors saw works well enough."I like your style. I also have a contractor saw. I have an old Sears drill press and jointer and a Rikon band saw, and a 13" Delta thickness planer. Most of my hand tools are second hand except for my Lie Nielsens, which are my one luxury item. I saw a sign that said "Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in ####Corvette than in a Yugo." I suppose you could insert LN for Corvette and Stanley for Yugo.My part time job at Woodcraft reduces the cost of tools significantly, but I still don't buy many. I found out long ago that "skill" is where it is at, and that buying yet another expensive tool does not make me happy. Making a fine piece of furniture or a nice carving makes me happy. But if everyone felt like this, the tool sellers would have a tough time. They depend on folks who are hooked on buying expensive new tools. From what I can see at Woodcraft, there are lots of folks who are happy to lay out the big bucks for the expensive stuff. Hope it makes em happy.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Chris,
Thanks for the heads-up on keeping the Freud blade clean and sharpened properly. I keep my entire saw extremely clean. Every night, I turn my saw over on its top (of course, I lower the blade first). Then I remove the four bolts that hold the carriage and remove the entire saw mechanism and give it a good cleaning . I have a large tank with an agitator. Then I dry it thoroughly, including a compressed air cleaning, and finally I use the correct amounts of the correct lubricants. This only takes two hours each evening and I find it is time well spent. Sometimes I don't clean the blade every night, but surely every other night. OK, all seriousness aside. What can you tell me about getting the blade ground correctly? Are there any special instructions to give to the shop that does the sharpening? Are there shops that specialize in Freuds, as Forrest does its own sharpening?Any info you can provide, including specifics on your own experience are much appreciated. I have two blades, the Freud and a Forrest WWII. I am happy with both. What blades do you like best?THanks,
Mel
PS certain portions of the first paragraph of this message are not completely accurate. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I asked the rep about sharpening (haven't actually done it yet) and he suggested that you make sure your sharpening service has a cnc sharpener. He said all the geometry is listed in the fat freud book and can be input to so that blade is sharpened correctly. Freud does not have any kind of sharpening stuff of their own and it doesnt seem like they plan to either. Kind of strange but what the hey. I have heard good stuff about ridge carbide so you might try them. If you send your WW2 out, probably can send your fusion with it.As for blades, I do like the fusion for plywood. Gotta keep it clean though! I really was surprised how nice the cuts were for both ripping and crosscutting. My go to blade is the CMT combo. I am definitely not a guy who likes to change the blade all that much!Chris
Chris,
I don't like to change the blade at all. I plane and/or sand everything, as appropriate, so don't look for "perfect" cuts from the table saw. Indeed, I try to use the table saw as little as possible. I am using the band saw more, hand saws more, etc. I see too many people with missing digits, and except for the ones that were lost in shaper accidents, they all were lost to table saw accidents. I do keep my table saw nicely aligned, but other stuff can happen, such as releasing tension stored in the wood. I use hold downs, feather boards, a splitter etc as appropriate, but somehow I have GREAT respect for the power of the table saw. Thanks for the info on the CMT combo blade. I just haven't run across many of those. But if folks ask about it in the future, I will tell them that I have a friend who recommends them.After reading your first message, I looked up the paperwork that came with the Freud Fusion blade. VERY INTERESTING. I should start reading directions more. :-) It recommends canting the fence a little to the right, as does Forrest. With regard to sharpening, it recommends that you use the Freud sharpening service at:Freud Sharpening
2003 Bancroft Street,
Charlotte, NC 28206So I will have them sharpen my Fusion when necessary, and switch between the Fusion and the Woodworker II. Interestingly, the sheet that came with the blade gives info to give the sharpener if you use other than the Freud sharpener. They give info on sharpening differently on the first through 15th sharpening. !!! Wow. Someone has done some thinking.Hope you find that info useful. I have not put the Fusion through any difficult cutting tasks yet. My guess is that it is just fine for the way I use the saw. I think you know that I wasn't "recommending" the Freud blade. I was simply commenting that I had just installed one and it cut well. That is different than what happened when I first got the Delta Contractor Saw. I made my first cut, and then took the cheap Delta blade off of the machine and put a WWII on. The Delta blade was "contractor" grade, and of no use to me.I never would have learned all this stuff about sharpening Freud blades if it had not been for your message. Thank you very much.Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Chris & Mel,
thanks. Interesting.Pete
Mel -
I appreciate the info about Freud's sharpening service. Do you have any more info about it? I asked Tony (division rep) and Roy Freud (our sales rep) about where to have fusion sharpened and both said they didn't have service. Wonder if it's a case of head and hand not communicating?ChrisPS - I knew you weren't recommending blade! Even if you were, I know how WC works and the variety of blades we can order so no biggie.
Chris,
You asked if I have any further info on the Freud sharpening service. I didn't know anything about it until I got your message and I went and looked at the sheet of info that came with the blade. What I told you came from that sheet. If you'd like, I could make a copy of the sheet, which actually is a foldover with four "sides". If you'd like that, just send me your address usin "reply via Email", and I'll send it to you. I took a two hour "training course" on Freud blades and bits last Friday, and the rep never mentioned a Freud sharpening service.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I wonder what would happen if you sent your WWII to Freud and your Fusion to Forrest for sharpening?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
"I wonder what would happen if you sent your WWII to Freud and your Fusion to Forrest for sharpening?"Probably the same thing that would happen if I sent one of my LNs to LV for some sort of modification. By the way, I hope you know that I would have some LVs if WC sold them and I could pick them up at the employee discount. Best I can tell, both brands are excellent quality. I used a few LV planes at the woodworking show near Dulles in the Spring, and I was very impressed. I was sorry to see that LN dropped out of woodworking shows. THey are doing their own now, and will be here in Northern Virginia in mid June. The Washington Woodworker's Guild is sponsoring it. THey offered the Guild members an interesting thing. LN needed people to set up, then man the booth, do demonstrations, and then take it down. The offer was that they would pay $15 an hour in LN money. That is, they wouldn't give you any money, but you could apply it toward a purchase. ALso they are giving 10% off. THey got a bunch of volunteers very quickly. I didn't because it doesn't come close to matching the employee discount at WC. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I suppose you would end up with a Lie Valley plane, then. Or would that be Lee Nielsen?I, too, was disappointed to not see LN at the last woodworking show I was at in Ontario, Ca.What you said about owning the planes you get a discount on goes the same for me. That is indeed an interesting way that LN runs their booth. I wonder how they ensure that the guild members demonstrating know what they are doing. Is there a test? From LN's point of view, I'd want my product marketed the same way at all the shows. I'm sure that LN staff would have much more in-depth knowledge of the product and the company than anyone else. Was there at least one LN employee there?About the payment, I wonder if that shows up as income for tax purposes? It does sound good though, $15/hour and 10% off. By the way, I checked out a Woodcraft in Ontario, Ca. and found lots of interesting stuff. I was impressed by the shop.
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
There was no LN test. The Guild sent out a message looking for volunteers. I agree with you. If I were LN, I would want competent folks doing the demonstrating. The show and sale will be in June. I'll let you know how it goes. I am not sure I'll go. Depends on what else is happening. I already know the tools, and it wouldn't make sense for me to buy anything there, so the only reason to go is to see how it comes off. Have fun. I have cut back my work at Woodcraft to one day a week. I hope that lasts. We'll see. I have been spending a lot of time in the shop. Am about to put the third coat of finish on the glider (rocker) for my grandson. Maybe two more to go. Also, I am in the middle of doing some re-caning of some late Victorian chairs. The last person who did these chairs did some interesting (non standard things). It is good to have a challenge. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
come work with me if you enjoy a challenge. I do remodeling. Interesting(non standard) things are my bread and butter.-)Pete
Pete,
I am sure I could learn an immense amount from you. You live very close by in Hyattsville. Remodelling is a honest living. I am having a bathroom redone now. If I had known you do such work, I would have called you. (the guys doing it are doing a fine job). I retired a year and a half ago. I enjoyed my working career, but I am really enjoying the freedom to do my hobby now, so I am not looking for another day job. Thank you for the offer. :-) I am going to send you a personal email in a minute.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mostly what I'd have to teach would be along the lines of; I've done that(or seen it done)- DON'T DO IT! Then there'd be many a thing taught to me by others. Finally there are a few things I figured out on my own without damage being done. But, any one of those things I could be forgetting at the moment, proceed in the wrong direction until alarms start sounding and I go oh, wait; "I've been here before. I think I know the way out."It's gotten to the point that when my wife is working with me and I've gathered my vast experience, knowledge and intellect to proclaim that something should work my wife automatically adds "theoretically". My favorite qualifier again drawn from my vast experience.Pete
Pete,
I remember when I found out that woodworkers refer to their wife as SWMBO, She Who Must Be Obeyed. Oh so true. Somehow my wife has insight that could have only come from Divine Inspiration. You already know that many of my ideas are non standard. When it comes to Teaching and Learning. I believe that Everybody is learning all the time. It can't be stopped. There are some people in the world who because of their job or because of their nature, think of themselves as "Teachers". Teachers tend to teach didactically - they tend to attain a voice tinged with authority, which masks whether they actually know much about what they are talking about. I tend not to place much faith in teachers because I like to control my own learning. With regard to woodworking, I really enjoy getting with other woodworkers and LEARNING their approaches, their styles, their techniques, their attitudes. That doesn't mean that i will attempt to add these to my repertoire, but it means that I have more ideas to try out and see if they work for me. So I haven't taken any formal training in woodworking. I am anxious to see your stuff learn how you do things. Hope that happens this summer. And maybe we'll see some other neighbors such as Samson.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Sorry to hear of the poor quality. The photos looked good last summer. That's when they announced they would be out last Octoberish. Constant delays. And, they showed chisels that looked like the old 750s.
I was certainly hoping they would be good tools. Looks like my "old" Stanleys (planes and chisels) will stay and work alongside my "new" Lie Nielsens and Lee Valley/Veritas.
Alan - planesaw
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