Hi all I heard Stanley tool works released info on there new line of stanley (sw) wood chisels,the pictures i saw
looked like the old #720 socket chisels .the second one was called the baily chisel it looks like one of those new eastern
European tang chisel with steel hoops. cant wait to see them in person.
Replies
Interesting, but...
The idea of Stanley making quality chisels got my interest, but they'll have to go a long long way in this direction to win my business.
Just one man's opinion, but Stanley walked away from the serious woodworker a long time ago. Those of us who wanted quality hand tools found and restored the old Stanleys or bought from the new entrepeneurs who stepped up - Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Blue Spruce, etc.
Now Stanley has identified a demographic with disposable income and a passion for hand tools, so wants to jump back in and help us dispose of that income.
Unless Stanley makes a serious, sustained effort over many years toward making quality hand tools for the serious woodworker they are not going to win this consumer's dollars.
Frank
Stanley Works (or, doesn't)
Plus, if Stanley Works keeps tinkering with the quality and hierarchical standing of Porter Cable and Delta, as B&D did, we'll know where their heart (or, lack thereof) is, quality-wise.
"Those of us who wanted
"Those of us who wanted quality hand tools found and restored the old Stanleys or bought from the new entrepeneurs who stepped up - Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Blue Spruce, etc."
You have your kit, why would you be in the market at all, and why, therefore, would you care what Stanley is doing? What you're talking about would be like having a pool put in and then a week later calling another contractor to quote on putting in a pool. You have a pool, go swimming. You have chisels..........fill in the rest.
Hi Charlie, and welcome to the forum.
I guess to answer your question is that my "kit" is more like a moving target or work in progress than it is a static collection of tools. But even if I were never to buy another hand tool, I think my passion for the craft and the community would cause me to have an opinion on things - and with forums like this around that exist for people with like interests to share ideas and opinions I'd probably toss out a thought or two here and again.
As consumers, we should take opinions and positions. Though somewhat idealistic, I admit, our buying decisions should contribute to defining the demand that orders the development of products. Otherwise, the manufacturers and distributors start telling us what we want to buy - demand is actually ordered by the suppliers.
I don't want to get to a place where we can either get the orange one at this box store or the blue one at this box store and, unless you're a manufacturer who wants to water down your brand, nobody else gets on the shelves.
Frank
I'd be pleased to see a line of decent bench chisels on the market. Give me a line of nicely balanced, relatively thin bevel edge chisels with traditional bolsters and made of good tool steel like O-1 or W-1. I'd be a happy customer. As it is, I'm still planning on making my own. I just don't think it'd be hard for a manufacturer to get right and I'm disgusted that no one seems interested in making some chisels without all the gimmicks. For nearly two centuries this kind of chisel was the most common and with good reason--they're idealy suited to bench woodworking.
Larry, I agree in the main.
My vintage Bergs have wonderful HCS blades. They are thin and narrow in the shoulder. More recently I have been enjoying the Stanley #750s I restored and modified. The modification involved grinding away the thick shoulders as LN did to their reproduction of the #750, and then adding slightly longer handles.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Stanley%20750%20Dovetails/Chiselset1.jpg
Now that LN has brought out an O1 version of their #750-based chisel I think that there may be a renewed interest in paring chisels. While not strictly a paring chisel, the LN O1 can more safely lower the bevel angle typically found on A2 chisels.
Now the pictures I have seen of the new Stanley chisels, which are also said to be based on the #750 design, appear to copy the design specs of the original chisels .. and that is what I would have a beef about. The shoulder of these chisels is high/thick enough to bruise dovetail shoulders if used for that purpose.
Here is the new Stanley. Look at the size of the shoulders ...
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/content/binary/16-787-Still.jpg
For comparison, here is the LN ..
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/bescset_lg.jpg
For the best O1 bang for the buck, one must not overlook the Ashley Iles ..
http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/article.asp?a=978
Now I do think that there is a valid place for chisels with harder steel. I like O1 for the rapid sharpening, but it does not hold an edge as long as A2 or, especially, the laminated HCS of Japanese chisels. I have Blue Spruce chisels which, as you know, are A2. On Shapton waterstones they really take no more than one extra stroke over O1 steel. And then they hold an edge twice as long. And Japanese blades are even better than that, and they are more impact resistant than O1, which is important when you are working with hard woods.
I could live with O1 chisel steel if I had to do so. I am enjoying my vintage Stanleys at this time. If I were starting out, the new Stanley chisels would only interest me if they had followed LN's lead and evolved the design. However they chose to keep it original, and so they do not wow me at all.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I agree on the shoulders. I left a pooper of a comment to that effect on the schwartz blog.
I understand that there is additional cost involved in making delicate shoulders on a chisel, but looking at stanley's pictures make them look like stupid hardware store paint-can openers with the fat sides.
Why anyone would pay $30 to get that profile when two very good condition vintage chisels with delicate sides can be bought for the same price is beyond me.
It's just another good example of what stanley has become - they see a small market, they decide all of the sudden they want to participate, and then they do half of the work they need to on figuring out what product that market wants to see.
Totally stupid.
LN A2 or O1?
So, what are the pros and cons of the two L-N chisels? A2 vs O1? Why would I want one over the other?
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
Hi Alan
Automatically I'd recommend that you get A2 if you plan to do a lot of chopping, and O1 if you prefer to pare.
However my Blue Spruce dovetail chisels have A2 blades and 30 degree bevels, and are used only for paring. They get extremely sharp and work very well on hardwoods.
The HCS Stanley #750s I have are bevelled at 25 degrees and I use them on hardwood as well. They just do not hold an edge as long as the BS.
In other words, everything works. Get A2 if you want a longer lasting edge and O1 if you want a little more ease in honing (especially if you use oilstones).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Can you explain the structure of A2 vs. O-1 and exactly what properties you find in A2 that are beneficial when it comes to the structure of the steel?
Go on Larry, tell us what you don't like about A2 .... that's really what you want to do. No preamble necessary.
I have handled enough HCS and A2 (and some D2 and CPM 3V) to be aware of their differences in use.
I like using HCS chisels (I have Stanleys and Bergs and Witherbys), but I don't like having to re-sharpen them every few strokes. O1 and A2 feel equally sharp in practice, but O1 is definitely easier to sharpen. A2 (such as Blue Spruce) is not much more effort to sharpen (especially if you use waterstones such as the Shaptons) - not so much that one should see it as a hassle, and A2 does hold an edge significantly longer when used on our local eucalypts.
Some days I go for edge holding and use either Blue Spruce or Koyomaichi, and other days I go for the balance of my modified Stanley #750s and sharpen more.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Vast amounts of non-experience
Derek,
As you know, the solipsist logic goes like this:
Daft Argument Numero One: "I have some experience of tool-type X using materials Y and configuration Z, which I like. Therefore this is the only type of tool worth liking and therefore everyone should use only this tool-type, this material and this configuration".
Daft Argument Numero Two: "I have vast amounts of non-experience with many tool-types. Since by defintion I have never had a good experience with these tools (no experience includes no good experience) they must all be useless rubbish".
Daft Argument Numero Three: "Good articles of tool-type X were made in the past using materials Y and configuration Z therefore there is no need to invent or try tools of a different type, material or configuration. All tool design and development should have ceased in [insert arbitrary date] when tools were perfect so different tool-types, materials and configurations that come after must be imperfect".
****
Well, I could go on (and on) paraphrasing the very silly "thought processes" that masquerade as reasoning in these kinds of new tool-bashing threads; but the blinkered men also have logic-filters installed so they will never be persuaded of anything not already hard-wired into their wetware. The less prejudiced fellows hardly need the likes of you or me to remind them that their Blue Spruce or LN chisels perform excellent-well despite their modern materials and other evolutions of the chiselly attributes.
Lataxe, never persuaded by arguments from non-experience, especially those from the hard-wired men.
Daft argument Numero Four, Lataxe: "I gotta spend so much time rationalizing buying this expensive crap that I really ought to have logos and trademarks from various toolmakers tattooed on my forehead. There's just about no length I won't go to try to prove that you gotta have the $75 chisel instead of the $5 one. I could build 200 more pieces, but when I die, by God, my tools are going to be worth more than all the stuff I ever built with them! I'm committed to that principle."
Good to see you again, take care, EH
Tatoodles
Ed, ole sinnick,
I have decided that "Festool" might go on one bum cheek, although there is certainly room for a longer brand, perhaps "Scheppach"? But what to put on the other, for balance? It'll come to me. Obviously it must be German and possibly writ in that gothic script.
Meanwhile I will have "Blue Spruce" tatooodled down the length of another nether-limb, as the term might well be taken as literal on that wun'dross appendage! (This reminds of a terrible naval joke concerning the expansion of the puzzling cypher "SHM" into "Southampton" when the member bearing the term was suitably stimulated, but I digress).
As to the forehead...... I have asked the ladywife what to have emblazoned there and she mentioned "Dick Tools" (or the shortened version of the term). She is a naughty joker-woman. Whilst trying to think of an alternative I realised that I could wear some actual tools, strung on a chain in the way that exotic ladees used to wear chains of gold coins around their heeds. In my case it will be those miniature Marcou planes. It will soon become The Fashion.
Don't be copying me now! You will merely look ridiculous draping those drossy chisels about your person; or those defunct B&D things you wore out by using them once.
Lataxe, much better at tool-snobbing than you cheap curmudgeons.
Yet another digression
Can't add much to the chisel argument, but I'd never heard the Southampton acronym...the only version I claim was the puzzling cypher "SWAN", which, under the same suitable stimulation, expanded into "Shorty's Bar and Grill, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan"
Can't beat that - very funny. I'm sure I'll warm up in a bit.
Fossils
Charlie! You are stil extant!!
I am very happy.
****
I see you are still as solipsistic as ever, which is a great relief. Now, please let us have your excellent opinions on Festool routers, as I have just got a one and wish to know if I should return it with a small note explaining that "Charles doesn't approve of this as it is modern and blunt file will do".
Lataxe
Yep, still breathing.
Hi Lataxe my friend
As always you have the best replies for the contrarians.
In the perfect world we would only have one tool design, and this would be vetted for acceptance by Larry. We are indeed lucky to have someone of his outlook watching over the industry as he does not let anything escape his critical eye. He is extremely consistent at stating just what he considers is poor design. Unfortunately this does tend to include just about everything and there is precious little, if anything, that survives his scrutiny. It is simply astounding how much Rubbish there is out there, and much of it is made by some of the Big Names in woodworking circles as well ... all just Rubbish!
Oh well, it is time for my afternoon nap. Those insights have exhausted me.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Bench chisel work
Derek I'm curious if you do any carving.
If you do, when you use carving chisels is honing them a separate and distinct procedure from your carving, or do you do like most, and just carve and hone them as you work when they need it?
For me, bench chisel work is the same way - and it is why I use olistones and don't really care if A2 holds an edge longer than HCS. I am always honing my bench chisels as I work, but it is an integral part of the work flow, not a separate procedure that you have to muck around with setting up waterstones, etc. It only takes 5 seconds or less to make the chisel as sharp as it can be with a translucent Arkansas stone. The stone is sitting there on my bench and I don't even think about doing it. The principle is exactly like when the barber shaves my neck with a straight razor and strops it on the leather strop hanging from the barber chair just before he starts - part of the normal work flow.
Don't mean to be argumentative - I'm far beyond doing that in this sad relic of a forum - just pointing out a different way of looking at the use of bench chisels - more like carving chisels.
Now when I use chisels for trim carpentry, which I have been doing a great deal of in the last couple months, it's a completely different game. In that case, I use Nooitgedagt chisels and I sharpen them with a belt sander. Works great. Ha ha ha. Good luck, EH
Hi Ed
To answer you literally, no I do not do any carving. However, I see what you are saying and I don't have an issue with the method you prefer. I also hone/strop my chisels as I work. It is possible to extend the life of an edge a long time this way. I think that we are on the same page .. with a few minor differences. I emphasise "minor".
I will also pickup on a point you made about sharpening your Nooitgedachts on a belt sander. For me the issue is "sharp enough". That is really what I aim for - however "sharp enough" does vary according to the demands of the situation. I really do not identify with the excessively fussy sharpening methods of some, such as the triple (or is that quadruple) micobevel style of Brent Breach and David Charlesworth. Give me a hollow grind and a couple of freehand strokes on a waterstone anyday. I want it done fast. I am not a fan of sharpening. It ranks somewhere with politics on my List of Dislikes. Stropping is often an efficient means of maintaining an edge - it was over a year before I actually needed to take my Blue Spruce dovetail chisels to a stone.
However life is not that simple sometimes. We are in trouble if we become too fixed in our ways and exclude other options. For example, as much as I dislike using a honing guide, I will do so for bevel up planes because the extreme angles (high and low) afforded by these planes is very desirable on the woods with which I work. For more moderate cutting angles I am happy to return to bevel down planes. I do not see myself in a camp.
Similarly, for steel for blades there are pros and cons and I do not see myself in a camp. Stropping is not always the best option. There are times when it is more convenient to have a longer lasting edge. This point may not be appreciated by those that do not work with similar abrasive woods to those we have in Oz. Further I do appreciate that the tools I use and the methods I choose are not appropriate for others elsewhere in the world. I try and avoid statements that are catagorical.
As I mentioned to Larry, there are also times I just throw "best method" away and work from the heart - after all this is a hobby and meant for fun - and I will enjoy the half dozen strokes with a Stanley 750 (is it W1 steel?) as it gets pushed through some Karri.
Do you strop or resharpen a chisel after every 5 or 6 strokes?
Regards from Perth
Derek
"Go on Larry, tell us what
"Go on Larry, tell us what you don't like about A2 .... that's really what you want to do. No preamble necessary..."
I already did in this thread. I don't see much need to repeat myself, especially when there are so few of us left around here. I thought you might actually have something to offer about the steel itself or its properties. You obviously don't.
http://www.allanbreed.com/profiles/blogs/tools-you-dont-need
The comments are nearly as good as the blog post.
Hi Larry
http://www.allanbreed.com/profiles/blogs...
Don't you love the one where he says he has never seen snipes bill plane, intimating that he does not believe in using them? Gawd, what do you think he would say about the jewellery you build?
Wonderful woodworker. He doesn't really need tools.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I would suggest an on-line site for remedial reading comprehension help but one would have to be able to understand what's written there to get any benefit from it. It's kind of conundrum.
on edit (too bad the software here doesn't indicate a post has been edited):
Editing posts is such a convinient way of rewriting history, I have a screen shot of the original post--want to see it?
I would suggest an on-line site for remedial reading comprehension help but one would have to be able to understand what's written there to get any benefit from it. It's kind of conundrum.
Great observation!
I have written many service manuals during my working life. Mostly on printing presses. Mechanical and electronics.
It truely is a conundrum. (difficult problem; a dilemma:)
It is impossible to write anything that everyone will understand all of the content. Especially with words that imply common sense ideas or words unfamiliar with the reader. We did not hire stupid people. Maybe lazy people, but not stupid....
The main problem, I think, is that we are human and we ALL have our own ideas about most anything, even if taught otherwise.
Sort of like my oldest daughter. We always had problems (as told by her teachers) with her reading grades. She is far from a stupid woman! She has a masters in Chemistry and Mathematics. She still adds HER thoughts into something she reads aloud. Not sure what goes on in her mind while reading a subject to herself.
Sort of like me reading about Science... I 'think' I understand.
Sort of like me reading Shakespeare... I never understood anything that man said to me.
Sort of like me reading these posts... I laugh, I cry, I have fun reading and many times I even learn something new. Did I 'really' understand what the poster told me? I have no idea if what I have stored into my brain was what the original author had in mind. It just seemed reasonable to me.
Written words can be learning something bad or learning something good. It all depends on the reader and their prospective about the words written or spoken. When words are spoken to another, we as humans 'somehow know' or react that the 'receiver' of our words did not come across as intended. Sort of like a teenager or any other age man that trys to impress a female with words that get us a slap in the face. What happened? I only told her 'I wanted her'? I did NOTsay that I wanted to abuse her! We talked a bit after she tended to my bloody face and we were married a few years later...
I'd say, never judge written words as the spoken word.. Or what we 'see' from the written word...
We all can get the wrong idea about what another said to us in print or from spoken words. At least with spoken words we have some 'feedback'. Like a slap in the face from a girl that really liked you....
What gimmicks do you refer to?
Larry,
I'm curious to hear what you consider to be gimmicks when it comes to chisels. Do you feel that there are gimmicks with the LN line of chisels (or Blue Spruce)?
Jeff
Jeff,
I want wood handles on my bench chisels, don't give me some resin impregnated wood that no longer has the properties of wood. If someone is selling plastic handles, sell plastic handles. Wood that's been modified to be plastic doesn't impress me and I can't imagine paying a premium price for it. I don't want socket bench chisels, I want tanged bench chisels for the balance. I also don't want some pieced together hybrid tang/socket/bolster. A properly formed and sized bolster is important to the chisel and its balance. You can't change a bench chisel to a paring chisel by adding some gimmick longer handle, paring chisels and bench chisels are different animals and have differently formed blades. All one gets by adding a longer handle to a bench chisel is a clumsy, awkward bench chisel. A-2 steel is a coarse grained steel with relatively coarse impurities that aren't even structurally part of the steel. Carbide inclusions are, to me, just like any other impurity inclusion; it's not structurally part of the steel and can't be held in place when they happen to fall on the edge. I think the whole concept of A-2 steel is nutty when one understands what's there. I'm sure there's more but that's what comes to mind at the minute.
Larry,
A2 versus O1
I am reminded of a test that I participated in back in graduate school. Lots of people have tried it. I was amazed at the result. The question was: Can you pick your favorite beer out from five different beers?
Almost everyone thought they could pick their "favorite" beer out of a crowd. Note that there were no Dark Beers involved, and Lite Beer had not been invented yet. So the Beers looked alike.
I don't remember anyone being able to pick their favorite beer out of the five. Who knows? Maybe we had done too much drinking already. :-)
I think you can see where this is going. Do you think that if Tom Lie Nielsen walked into a room with twenty chisels, ten being made from A2 and ten from O1 steel, that top notch woodworkers could test all 20, and separate them into two sets of chisels correctly? Give them two hours and lots of wood.
It would be fun to see the results.
Hope you are having fun. Non illigitimi carborundum.
Mel
It's easy Mel, here's how: Raise a good-sized wire edge on two identical tools, one of high carbon steel (oil or water hardening) and one of A-2 steel. Examine them under just 10X magnification. The one with the wire edge that's coarse, ragged and full of voids will be the A-2. The high carbon steel will have a wire edge that's uniform and fine. Come to my shop and I'll show you on two identical tools that happen to be from another maker. BTW the quality of the wire edge is a dependable indicator of the quality of the cutting edge that will remain.
On edit:
There's more Mel. In use and on the stones the high carbon steel will be lively and resilient. It'll have a ring to it both in use and when honing. By contrast, the A-2 will seem numbingly dead on the stones, in use and any sound is lifelessly flat.
Larry,
Thanks for the reply. I sure would like to visit your shop, but I don't get out that way very often. Besides, I would be mightily tempted, and I have a problem with temptation.
While my knowledge of the differences between various steels is not the best, and while my set of tools is not something that Derek would drool over, my woodworking skills are coming along nicely. I am attaching a photo of a little box of three drawers that I made recently. I did it as a learning experience. I hadn't done half blind dovetails or sliding dovetails, and I wanted to carve a set of Baroque S curves and C curves. So I made something for my wife to put 3x5" recipe cards in that has these features. In addition, I did the drawers with half blind dovetails on lipped fronts. Surprisingly everything worked out well. To get the stuff out of the corners of the half blinds, I ground a pair of fishtail chisels out of two Pfeil single bevel chisels. They worked very well. Everything was done with hand tools except that I thicknessed the pieces using a bandsaw, then I planed them square and to size. My bench hook and shooting board saw a lot of action.
No museums will be fighting for my wife's recipe card box, but in terms of building skills, it was a good project for me. Besides, I designed it myself. The carvings were fun. Not many folks are using Baroque style carvings on their furniture these days. :-) I have to make a couple of chairs for grandchildren, then I am going to try a few projects just using hand tools that keep the challenges coming.
Have fun,
Mel
PS - I just saw that my photo shows up as being horizontal on Knots, although it is vertical when I see it on my computer. I tried to fix it but it didn't work. Sorry about that. I will try to figure out what happened so that I can avoid that problem in the future.
Wow,
It must be Old Home Week or somethin. All the old familiar faces are here. At least most of 'em. If Forest Girl and Sarge would pipe up, we'd have a quorum, and maybe Adam and Charles would come back.
I have absolutley nothing to add to this thread, but felt the need to thank:
Derek for his absolutely predictable defense of all tools in his toolbox. I can't help but wonder if, on receipt of one of those little toy planes that accept a razor blade for its cutter, he wouldn't find some use for it, complete with a glowing review complete with photo essay.
Larry for poking the hornet's nest with his sharp stick.
Lataxe for rising to protect an assault on hearth, home, and crow's-bait filled tool shed, with a great buzzing and mighty thrusting hither and yon of his engorged blue spruce stinger.
Ed's ridiculously well- reasoned statements.
And Mel, who found a way to compare steel and beer.
(Mel, your beer taste test didn't work for the simple reason that, when changing brands of beer, no matter from which brand to what, the second beer tasted always tastes like crap. I have tested this theory hundreds of times, and it has always held true. Hic.)
It's been a great read fellas. Almost like old times.
Ray
Ray,
At NASA, there is a phrase which strikes fear into the hearts of engineers and scientists. When I read your message, that phrase flashed in my mind (whats left of it). The phrase is " Frog phart". A "Frog Phart" is a clear unambiguous statement of the TRUTH of what has just happened. The story of Frog Pharts is interesting.
It was started by a guy who gave courses on Management. He told the story of the Frog Bog, where one hears frogs going "Brivit". It seems like all is well in the Frog Bog, but if you stop and analyze, you see that the Frog Bog is covered in Fog. One hears the noises, but one can't see much. This makes things seem better than they are. What is actually going on is that the frogs spend a lot of time eating flies. Unfortunately eating too many flies gives frogs gas. Frogs phart when they have gas. A frog phart has two functions, one intended and one unintended. The phart releases the gas and makes the frog feel better.
HOWEVER, the passing of the gas also separates the fog for a few seconds, and then all of the frogs can see what is going on, and what they see is not good. Everything is soaked in water. There is nothing interesting do do, Everyone is just sitting around eating flies.
So a "Frog Phart" is something that painfully makes clear to all what the reality of the situation is.
Thank you for your Frog Phart.
So let me try a Frog Phart. Tell me, Ray, what is a real woodworker doing in this conversation?
Yuk, yuk, yuk.
You made my day. Have fun. Happy Pharting.
Mel
Mel,
Did you ever hear the story of The Cow, an Ant and an Old Fart?
A friend asked if it knew it...
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> the greatest!!
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> The Ant: I work day and night, summer and winter, I can carry 52
> times my own weight and that's why I am the greatest!!
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hahahahaha
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Ray
Edited to apologise to the OP for a total hijack of the thread.
Homogeneity
Ray, ole birra 'biber,
"Comparing steel and beer....."
I yam begining to grasp the inability of the various sinnicks and sneermen to understand the various tool differentiations, an illumination stimulated by your remark.
Now, as you know only too well, there are many substances and thangs in the Yoo Ess of A that are differentiated only by marketing spiel, gaudy label and price. For example, all the beer is the same yeller tapwater with flavourings from the wastepipe 'round the back of DuPont; but the liquids are dressed up in hyperbole of various kinds to fool the buyers. The price also varies enormously, on the basis of the various rich-to-poor snobbery scales you have over there, rather than our Blighty Class nonsense.
It is the same with those burgers, softdranks, gasguzzlers, popular musak, television prgrams, fillums and many other "goods" in your market places. They are all made of the same grey industrial sludge but messed with to look different.
So, a sinnick sees different tools and assumes they too are all the same sludge-ware, with steel-names or other claimed differences assumed to be a marketing nomenclature and no more. However, the proof is is the pud (or the eating of it) so sneermen should perhaps sample the tool types and then decide if they are all in fact all the same yeller tapwater, as it were.
Even in the land of the free there are small islands of ole-fashioned stuff. Them nice tools from the likes of LN, Bluespruce and others are jenyoowinely different, I allege, from Kraptool Incs $9.99 thang. Why man, they are as different as Jennings Snecklifter and Theakston's Old Peculiar beers are from Buddy's Barfing Ale ($1.16 for a 1/2 gallon jug).
One day I will send you a case of Jennings beers, including both the aforementioned Snecklifter (not named-so for nothing) and their Cockerhoop also. They are brewed in Cockermouth, Cumbria; near to Whitehaven...... I would send a case to that Larry, hoping for a relaxing effect to his angst-organ. However, I feel his natural paranoia would force him to pour the lovely liquids down a drain, on the grounds that they will contain hypno-fluid designed to make him believe that there is not in fact a conspiracy by LN or LV to rob poor woodworkers blind via various pigs in pokes.
Lataxe, a person of discening and refined taste (oh yes I am)!
Scientific Method
Lataxe, I would like to be included in the test to see if Jennings beer is any different from other beer. Matter of fact, being the wide-ranging free-thinker that you are, without any predisposed ideas, I'm sure that you will support the scientific method for testing a theorem like this. Since Ray is more predisposed to be in favor of all things blighty-like than I, I would suggest that I am the more impartial judge, and thus the more accurate participant in this application of the scientific method. Send Ray a case of beer, too, but send the true test-bed case(s) to me.
Which brings me to another point. Beers I like are: Nastro Azzuro, Sapporo Black Star, Melbourne Bitter, Red Stripe, Sam Adams Pale Ale, Big Sky Breweries Moose Drool, and Blacksmith Breweries India Pale Ale. Since there is such a catholic variety of beers that I like (there are more, but I'm just listing the ones I can remember drinking this week), I would suggest that you need to send several cases of your blighty beer for me to see if it's any good. The true application of the scientific method requires long study, careful analysis of results, and many pints.
Your friend in science, glad to help, no need to thank me,..EH
Ed,
You and I ort to get together, with friend Mel as the judge, to conduct the trial, and compare our results. In the interest of science (I predict a Nobel Prize as a result- can anything less be forthcoming from a real beer summit?)
I do admit to being somewhat of an Anglophile in the beer dept.
Mackeson's Oatmeal Stout
but now we are into the warmer months, if you haven't yet, you need to try
Cave Creek Chili Beer, from out west
Knots beer summit?
Ray
Sounds good, but as soon as we hear the phrase "lifecycle costs".....the judge is fired.
Ed,
Haha, reckon we can convince Mel that high-class Brit beer is like LN planes-- you can get your money back by selling it after you're done using it??
Happy Independence Day,
Ray
"...I would send a case to
"...I would send a case to that Larry, hoping for a relaxing effect to his angst-organ. However, I feel his natural paranoia would force him to pour the lovely liquids down a drain, on the grounds that they will contain hypno-fluid designed to make him believe that there is not in fact a conspiracy by LN or LV to rob poor woodworkers blind via various pigs in pokes."
Down the drain??? Never! It is possible your prescription may affect my "angst-organ," what ever that is. Let's try, I'm up for it.
Will Rogers of beer- I'm a commonsewer
Well, that's not zactly true. I did meet one beer I didn't like, back in the early 70's, with the house brand of the Safeway supermarket chain. "Brown Derby", it was called. That Belchian Lambic stuff I'm not too sure of either.
The aspersians you cast re our commercial beers here in the Colonies reminds me of the tale told by a friend. He was entertaining a group of Aussie businessmen and took them out to dinner at a microbrewery/ restaurant here in our little town. Naturally the conversation was revolving around our beer, and my friend suggested a trial of the local product. "Ah, I dunno 'bout that, Mate," was the reply, "Your 'murrican beer is like makin' love in a canoe." "Oh, how's that?" " 'Cause, it's f*%#ing close to water."
Anywho. I'll warrant that after a couple of Buddies barfers, if you try a pint of Old Peculier, it'll taste like swill- at first. I cannot account for this phenomenon, but there it is. The key is to persevere, and push on thru that initial confusion of the taste buds. By the time you reach the bottom of the pint, it's all good, and the 2d round of Theakston's finest will taste as it ort- and the Buddies will be but a memory swirling round the bowl on the loo.
I'm not convinced by your argument, however, re schlocky tools here stateside. True as it may be in our times, I have for these many years been accustomed to re-using and recycling the steel blades from tools found in the tool-graveyards of my collector friends- the broken warped and otherwise unusable remnants of an era when tools were made for artisans to use, not dilletantes to diddle. In lieu of Bluespruce LN and cetera, I've been employing Ohio tool, Auburn, Buck bros, and Barton, with some Butcher and Cam from your side of the pond. Now, I do have a Hock blade in my smoother at present. Frankly, tho it is a good blade, it isn't worth the add'l scratch I had to put out to get it. Compare to what I'm used to, it is a bit on the soft side.
But, I am willing to be convinced. As I await, (like the cat who ate cheese and sat by the mousehole with baited breath), your promised case of snecklifter--not sure what a sneck is, but at this point in my life I'm willing to have assistance in getting anything lifted!-- why not add one o' them moocows in the parcel, and I'll milk it for all it's worth, and give a report back on my impressions.
Ray
post scriptum: Serendipitously, last evening, at the weekly gathering of the Mossy Creek canoe company, one of the members brought the item in the attached photo for my delectation. Classic, and in its original box no less. Hadn't seen one of these in the flesh since the 70's. I wonder, do they still make 'em? And does Derek have a review??
And does Derek have a review??
Ray
After a few ales, will you be able to tell the difference? :)
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Orange%20Block%20Plane.html
http://www.australianbeers.com/
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek Mate,
Your lad's Orange Block Plane is to the Razor Plane, as a Marcou is to an Ananat.
I can see the difference, even after a couple Old Foresters. Can't you?
Razor Plane- Ist it has a name--"Willbro"- and a Patent # cast into its 100%potmetal body. 100% non adjustable. King Gillette dbl edge blade -" never dull" says the literature. No $hit, that's what it says, right there in black and ink. (I am old enough to have used King Gillette dbl edge blades on my own whiskers. I'm here to tell you, they get dull cutting HAIR.) Yet it still has 3 of its 10 REPLACEMENT blades...I must admit, the bullnose attachment that makes the plane into a sort of kind of spokeshave is a stroke of genius. As long as it won't work as a plane, why not make it double as a non-working spokeshave??!!
I am going to buy a lottery ticket tomorrow. First, I mention a razor plane, and the next day it appears before me for a photo op. Then I ask about Charles Stanford, and lo, and behold, here he is. Can the Rapture be far away?
Ray, wondering if he can conjure up a pot of gold
ps I looked over your aussie beer link, and am confused. I thot "Foster's" was 'stra'in for "beer". Maybe you can tell me why it (Foster's that is) comes in an oilcan like STP?
ps I looked over your aussie beer link, and am confused. I thot "Foster's" was 'stra'in for "beer". Maybe you can tell me why it (Foster's that is) comes in an oilcan like STP?
Ray
Aaah STP ... one of my favourite brews. My only complaint is that you can't put much of a head on it.
Fosters? Never touch the dishwater. Look up Dogbolter.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Raise a good-sized wire edge on two identical tools, one of high carbon steel (oil or water hardening) and one of A-2 steel. Examine them under just 10X magnification. The one with the wire edge that's coarse, ragged and full of voids will be the A-2
Larry, I'm curious how you manage to see such detail at 10X magnification. I have been examining different steels under 60X and 200X magnification and, admittedly this is early days for me and I consider the images should improve somewhat (although they are not too different from thoseof Brent Beech), still this type of detail is difficult if not impossible to see at the higher levels.
Here is a 60X magnification of a used blade (that is 6X what you see) ...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Blade%20testing/5-63V-425D100shavings60X5.jpg
And here is a 200X magnification of the same blade ...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Blade%20testing/5-63V-425D100shavings200X2.jpg
Regards from Perth
Derek
Wooden handles are preferred
Larry,
I agree with most of what you said, and am indifferent on the rest. I also prefer wood handles on my chisels. Scratch that.....I won't use a chisel that has a plastic handle. All my chisels have wooden handles.
I have socket chisels and tanged chisels. I personally don't feel any difference in use. Neither effects the quality of work I can perform. If the chisel is tuned properly, and the quality of steel is adequate, both work fine for me.
As far as cryo treated steel goes, I still don't see the argument here. I've got a mixed variety of hand tools.....chisels and plane blades both........some are A1 and some are oil dipped. While I notice a slight difference in the time it takes to sharpen one over the other, they both perform more than well enough to get the job done. That's really all I care about.
Lastly, I agree with your dislike for LN's answer for a paring chisel being a long-handled bench chisel. I was gifted a set of those long handled LN's several years back, and promptly sold them. They were clumsy as paring chisels, and too long for bench chisels, which made them a bad match for either function.
Presently, I've got an old, old set of adequate Greenlee chisels which I got for a song that I converted into paring chisels...i.e. 20° bevels. Works for me, and I paid $20 for all 5 of them.
Jeff
Hi Ed
No apology needed. And I think your analogies are perfect.
Your discussion highlights two distinct factors, actually three. These are sharpness and edge holding, with the third being balance and ergonomics.
OK, let me ask you another question, somewhat rhetorical as I will answer for you. "Would you use a chisel that you needed to rehone after each stroke"? Actually this is not so bizarre. I have read of some Japanese woodworkers who do just this with their planes. For myself I could not live with a tool like that.
If the lino layer's knife went dull each time he cut one line, I think he would throw the blade away and get a better one - one that lasted long enough to do enough work without being distracted and sidetracked by the need to rehone the blade.
This situation is not as extreme as I make it. It is all relative to the wood we work. I tried to make that point clear earlier on.
Sharpness is related to edge holding. But what is the point of sharpness without reasonable edge holding?
Balance and ergonomics are yet another dimension. Given that one starts with a blade that holds an edge, one may then (and only then) focus on the ergonomics of the chisel. Ergonomics (a topic very dear to my heart) is a luxury without a decent blade to begin with. Perhaps my concentration span is a lot smaller than yours :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
I will concede the point that there has to be some degree of edge retention for it to be a quality tool worth owning.
Your manner of working, wholely rational, totally efficient, complete without pomp and wallet emptying lost weekends is lost on about 98% of the people who will read your always entertaining posts.
Well, by Gawd!
As Roy D Mercer (google it ya ignoramuses) might say.
How the hell ya been? And hows the young un doin? Growing like a bad weed I hope.
Ray
ps and wheres Paddy da Hat? long as I yam conjurin up spectres, Bob from Kidderville too
Hey Ray.... she's fourteen months old now and gets more beautiful every day. Running around keeping Jennifer and me very, very busy.
Organ secretions
Larry,
You will be wanting to know that I am interrogating Mr Jennings (via the electronic aether) concerning his exportings to the USA of his malted barley refreshers. I would send you a case direct except for the nuisance of the postage fee from Blighty, which seems to be about 300X the cost of the beer. I am hoping that there will be a US purveyor of the wondrous Jennings just down the road from you so that I will have to pay only a dollar or three for the pack mule.
What is your angst organ? Well, it is a virtual organ which consists of the combined effects of several physical organs that secrete your juices. I believe you have an admixture of the said juices, which causes you to see some aspects of the world through a fog of suspicion. The Jennings may or may not amend the admixture. However, I have found that such liquids often merely amplify the existing conditions. (There are happy drunks, maudlin ones and fighters, for example; the worst kind are the singers).
I myself have a Pollyanna organ, which unfortunately tends to make me believe that even the direst of doings are all to the good .... somehow. I believe they used to call it republicanism (before those politicals got ahold of the word) - life is a challenge full of triumphs and disappointments, which is just as it ought to be so there is nothing disappointing really. :-)
Lataxe, beer-pusher
Welcome back Charlie. You're a sick man, but I've missed you.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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