I see from a hot notice from Pop Wood that PC stated in a presentation in NYC that the new PC brand tools will now be marketed below the Default junk with 1.1 amphr Nicd batts sold at Lowes and other tool dealers but above the Black and Pecker garbage, should we be happy?
It also inferred that the batts could be up graded from the Lowes stuff to use Li-on batts as an after market buy.
BOY ARE THESE FOLKS STUPID. THE BOOKKEEPERS AND MARKETING CONSULTANTS WILL GET THEIR BONUSES AS THEIR MARKET SHARE GOES RIGHT IN THE TOILET!!!
NOW, what will they do with DELTA???
Paddy the concerned.
Replies
I saw that last night too. I always thought that PC was the contractor grade and DeWalt the upper level handyman stuff but now they look to reverse that. The article showed samples of the new PC stuff that will be a darker grey color and just a cut above the B & D junk. I guess I'm glad I bought what PC tools I have when I did as it seems that quality American power tools are being downgraded again. I can't afford the Festool stuff so I will have to take even better care of what I currently own. I can remember when Craftsman tools were decent, but now I call they Crapsman. It seems that PC is following suit. I do have a good Delta Unisaw I bought 4 years ago, lets hope they continue to make this saw without changes to cheapen it.
Bruce
I just finished reading an e-article from wood magazine about a cheaper line of PC tools. Back in 1970 when I first got started in woodworking I didn't know any better and bought my first B&D and then graduated up to a CRAPSMAN. When they both were beyond repair after some light woodworking I swore I would never buy anything from those 2 companies. Now it is 2008 and I kept my word to myself 38 years later and have never spent another dollar with those two brand names. Their loss but I have some great tools and did not have to replace any of the replacements. Bob
I decided a couple of years ago that I no longer wanted any power tools made by the conglomerate that owns the Dewalt name.
I also decided that I would no longer buy power tools from Lowes, because they sell "similar model number" tools there. The single digit or character that is different from the professional grade tools is a sign of plastic gears, inferior motors, and perhaps other problems.
I follow the same rule at Home Depot, with the exception of Ridgid-brand tools. The Depot offers almost a lifetime warranty on Ridgid power tools, so I still consider them when making decisions. (Note that consider = consider -- I'm not automatically sold on them)
But mostly, I go to locally-owned shops and lumber yards, and get power tools there. Yes, I pay more, but the tools don't fall apart in two years either. My new circ saw is a Makita, my reciprocater is a Bosch, and my drill is a Ridgid......all new in the past year.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
I'm with you on that point. The more power tools I buy (and hand tools for that matter) the more I want to save my pennies and buy quality. I'm in the mood to support those companies that haven't gotten to big for their britches. Conglomerates only understand the value of marketing and volume. Dewey Screwem and Howe.
I think its about education and experience. People may not sweat spending a couple of more bucks on a better screwdriver, because they have had experience using cheap screwdrivers. Comparatively, they are spending a 100% more on a $4 screwdriver than a $2 one. I know the value of spending a $1,000 plus on a cabinet TS because I used a bench model for so long. Unless someone uses a $20 Stanley plane, they won't appreciate the additional cost for the quality and value of a LN plane. In the back of my mind I still want to believe I can make that Stanley perform like the LN. Experience says otherwise. We expect to pay more for quality. Not getting duped into thinking a product is quality. The web is a great equalizer, if people will only do their research.
The problem lies when a company sells an inferior product (based on mass marketing and famous faces on the tube) at a comparable price to an actual quality tool. I didn't even have to mention Craftsman.
Bosch seems to be an exception for conglomerates. They get it. They didn't try to take over the American market by selling unassuming hobbists sub par or barely adequate tools. I bought the Bosch ROS and jigsaw recently and no regrets so far. I few $$$ more but solid.
Did I get completely off the subject here?
<<because they sell "similar model number" tools there. The single digit or character that is different from the professional grade tools is a sign of plastic gears, inferior motors, and perhaps other problems.>>I have also heard of this regarding faucets and appliances. However I am really curious if it is an urban legend. One hears about it a few times and it becomes a given. Does anyone actually have data to substantiate the claim? Are there published independent studies where the same items were taken apart and compared?Please understand that I am not saying you are wrong, simply looking deeper into the subject.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I've heard much the same about tools, faucets and appliances and remain a bit skeptical. I think the single number or character difference has more to do with the big retailing giant's price matching guarantees- if the numbers don't match they don't have to honor a competitor's price.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. P. J. O'Rourke
I agree and here is my example. I bought a Panasonic television from Circuit City. In a few days they had the same television on sale for $40 less. I had a one month price gaurantee. I ask the clerk for my $40 and he said it was a different model number. It was the very exact TV. So I said fine, I'll just bring back the on I bought for a refund and buy the cheaper "model". He rang the cash register and handed me $40.
Not quite the same has what you are saying. The big box stores learned long ago that price competition is not a good thing. Since they buy in such volume, they can dictate to the manufacturer whatever "model number" they want. I read a few woodworking articles where the tool reviewer will say one product is the exact same as the other. I saw that on a Bosch product (that was a surprise) and I think a Yorkcraft planer and a Delta planer review here on FWW.
Two years ago, I bought a Milwaukee brand Sawzall at Lowe's. At the time, I noticed that the model number was different from those at other stores, but thought that the single-character difference was probably something to do with packaging.I used that Sawzall on a few remodeling jobs, and I loved it. Until about two weeks ago, when it continued running, but stopped actually moving the blade. The gears were stripped.Yes, they were plastic. When I bought it, it appeared to be a professional-grade tool. It was not. I remember that when I was investigating that original purchase, lots of Milwaukee's (with similar model numbers) specifically stated "metal gearbox" in the ads.I allowed myself to be misled.My new reciprocater is a Bosch, with metal gears. And LED headlights. And a "cord" that will never get cut by the blade. And this one came with a case, and a no-tools blade change system.The bad news was that I lost a couple of hours on my current remodel job, and could not take the time to price-shop for the new saw.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
It may be legend in that arena but not in the Circuit City/Best Buy arenas.The old "if you can find it at better price, we'll match" was based on custom units with a special number or letter in volume (50-100K units) built only for one client. This way they could always offer the deal without worry.Not data per se but anecdotal:I did experience one orange borg deal-a Honda Harmony mower. Great mower until repair time and then when you tell a Honda service dealer the model number, they say no deal, no warranty, it's a borg model only and we don't get reimbursed. They said go back to the borg.
I have also heard of this regarding faucets and appliances. However I am really curious if it is an urban legend.
It happens in other businesses for sure. We recently bought a car seat, we saw it on sale at Toys R Us and tried to get another retail to match the price... They didn't because it was a special Toys R Us model. They were pretty honest with us (there was no difference between the models) and gave us good service so we bought it from them.
Regarding tools, I don't think this is as rampant as one would think. If the borg stores sell a majority of the tools, than a majority of the tools wouldn't be up to task and the companies reputation would suffer. In the end these companies can offer a lower prices because they deal in volume.
I couldn't find anything about this on the Delta/PC site, nor on the corporate B&D site. (As we all know, B&D owns Delta, Porter Cable, Dewalt and various other brands.) Thus, at this point, it seems unclear if what they were talking about was a separate consumer-grade line to be sold through Lowes, or if the Dewalt "upgrade" (at least marketing-wise) will be more expansive.
PC has a long history, and has gone through a couple of rough spots in terms of quality control. It would be a shame if the entire line was down-graded. But, we'll have to wait and see, I suppose.
RB, both WOOD MAGAZINE and POPULAR WOODWORKING have blurbs on their websites about their invitation to the NYC presentation. Paddy
I quickly read the "Wood Magazine" and "Popular Woodworking" articles. The "Wood Magazine" piece makes it pretty clear that this is a separate line of PC tools aimed at a particular (low-end) market segment. The "Popular Woodworking" article essentially ends up at the same point, but with a little DeWalt drama thrown in for good measure. The PW author does, however, indicate that the existing line of PC tools that we know and love are supposed to remain unchanged. Thus, it seems to me that PC is trying to respond to the home-center market dynamics, cashing in, so to speak, on their brand recognition. That may, however, result in some confusion within the marketplace, particularly with respect to the B&D and DeWalt lines under the same corporate umbrella. So, while I applaud PC trying to make a few extra bucks in the short term, I'm not sure that the approach will be good for the company in the long term.Personally, I'm waiting for the new owners of Jaguar Motors to come out with an "affordable" Jaguar sedan. ;-)
PC and Delta's owner, Black & Decker, has a long history of literally destrying product lines: DeWalt, Master Power and Elu are examples. B&D is no longer a tool manufacturer but has moved to become more of a mass merchandiser. They have quietly discontinued the remaining "industrial rated" tools that PC made - the 310 router, the 503 worm drive belt sander, the 548 worm drive bayonet saw are the most recent losses.
But in B&D's defense (and I'm not one to defend B&D!), few people are buying extra heavy duty tools and are not willing to pay for them. And that's because the work they are doing is not as demanding - when was the last time you saw a millwright rebuilding a rolling mill? And framing folks are so used to the soft spf lumber that a Harbor Freight special with a dull blade can still zip through a 2x. No one wants to hang onto a worm drive saw to frame a house anymore - they don't need to.
But there is a contradiction - folks don't like the heavy worm drive machines but have no problem spending $1000 for a bunch of battery machines that weigh as much or more and don't have the torque or uptime that a corded machine has. Go figure.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled