Hi,
I’m new to wood working……well, I have some experience. For my first project I would like to build a woodworking bench.
I’m interested in the New Fangled Woodworking Bench, however I have a concern with the wedge style “traps” that hold the wood for jointing. What are your experineces with that portion of the design? For many things they obviously can not take the place of a traditional vise. I like how quickly you can secure the work and then change it just as quickly without unclamping anything. Does that wedge thing really hold the work well or do you get wobble or vibration when planing an edge?
Thanks,
Greg
Replies
Greg - did you look at the video "New-Fangled Workbench Revisited" that's currently listed when you go to the "Home" Tab above? John White gives a good demo of the bench, including the use of the wedge. He shows that he has wedges at both the top and bottom of the wedged board. He also shows the bench has the capability of wedging the other end of the board if needed. The use of wedges by woodworkers has been around a long, long time.
I haven't personally used the bench, but I haven't heard anything bad about it. The only ones I've seen don't go for it are people that want a more "traditional" looking bench.
charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
Greg,
I built the bench and will send pics if you would like. As far as the piece moving on edge. The only time I have found is when using a orbital sander. The vibration moves the board. But the clamp on the back end relieves that. The bench has been in my shop for about 6 months and I would change nothing. I have found nothing it can't handle. However, with that said I am a power tool guy. I built this bench knowing full well it was designed by a hand tool buff. But Flexability and cost sold me on this bench- vs - say a Lie-Nelson or a New England Style
Thanks guys for the feedback. I'm kind of thinking about doing hybrid of the New Fangled bench and a more traditional bench. I think that I'll use a twin screw for the end vise with bench dogs. This will allow me to surface plane boards, as well as large panels. The twin screw will also allow me to securely hold work between the screws for more aggressive work, although I would be working at the end of the bench. The wedge clamps would be used for most edge jointing type operations.If you have any other advice now that I gave you additional information on how I plan to build the bench please pass it on.Thanks again,
Greg
Greg,
I'm the guy that designed the bench.
The wedge is a very old and traditional way of holding boards on edge for hand planing, it doesn't need any extra clamping. For work like cutting dovetails on an upright board you can use the two clamps and a wood jaw inserted through the front apron of the bench to hold the work solidly in place.
The two long clamps running down the length of the bench work exactly the same way as a tail vise and were specifically designed to hold panels for surface planing.
John White
Hi John,Thanks for the explanation. The bench looks like it can do just about anything without spending an arm, a leg an a year of time!I really like the adjustable bottom support.OK, you got me sold!Thanks again,
Greg
If you search this site for the "new fangled workbench" you will turn up a lot of information about it. Good luck.John W.
John, I always thought "new fangled" was one word (newfangled). No wonder I wasn't getting many search hits, LOL! Sure is great to see you posting again.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/15/2008 12:49 pm by forestgirl
FG,
Yeah it's two words. I hate the name by the way and argued against it before the article came out, to no avail obviously. I'm open to suggestions for a new name but I suspect that the "new fangled" name has become permanent.
Regards, John
How about the "John White Workbench"? You came up with the original design and I, for one, don't see a problem with linking it your name.I'm considering building one later this year myself with some modifications. I don't have room for a bench of its original size. I will need to trim it down to 5 - 5 1/2 feet and am concerned about stability so I will be looking into ways to beef-up the base.Regards,
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
Naming it after me is obvious, but I never liked it, too wordy and I'm too shy.
The original base was quite sturdy, a shorter one shouldn't have any problems.
John W.
Hey ALL,
How's about the JohnWW Bench? Kinda catchy name don't ya think?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/15/2008 2:17 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 1/15/2008 2:17 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Kind of "nerdy" if that's a legal word.
John WW
IMO, innovation deserves recognition.Another choice, the "6-clamp Bench".I worry about a shorter version walking across the floor in use. Maybe I need to sharpen my planes.Over-design, over-engineer and over-build everything seems to be a genetic trait in my family.Regards,
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
I like that.
John W.
You got it. When I finish mine, I will dub it my "6-clamp bench". However, I will feel compelled to add the footnote, "Based on an original design by John White". Great job on the design.Regards,
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
While it needs 6 pieces of pipe, it only requires 4 clamps. I suppose that makes it as accurate as most names.
You're right. The components of two of the clamps are split between the front clamps and support for the planning beam.I am think about modifying my design to use 6 clamps but, I'm not that far into the design yet.Regards,
Jack
Perpetual Apprentice
Hope y'all don't mind if I piggy-back a question on here...How does the bench do as far as racking and sliding around the shop floor?I'm a bit larger than the average bear, and my NYW bench is a bit too light for my tastes. I tend to shove it all over the place. I'm fixin' to put some non-skid on the feet and find some way to add some mass (drawers) to the base, but I'm not sure that will be enough. Since the New-Fangled Work Bench shares the 2x construction, I'm wondering if its going to be heavy enough?Thanks,Monte
I would also like to piggy back a question here. Does anyone have any thoughts on using Jet's new Parallel Clamps in place of the end-to-end pipe clamps? Could these be used upright for a taller clamping surface and laid flat for edge clamping close to what the pipe clamps provide? I happen to have a pair of 8-footers which I would love to put to use as they are otherwise to long for my needs. I would shorten them to about 6 feet.
One other thought I am contemplating is to use 4" casters to roll outside during nice weather. The light is fabulous and the air fresh, my favorite place to work. This may destabilize the bench somewhat particulary if the outside terain is not too flat, but perhaps 4 extra 3/4" pipe half-clamps much like the ones holding the planing board could be used upside-down so that they would become 4 adjustable height legs. This is not well thought out notion I imagine this might be less stable than locking casters but it might help keep the top flat and square in its new temporary location.
Gary"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
How about the "White-fangled" bench?
A play on the name of Soupy Sale's dog White Fang? You're showing your age.
What a strange show, way ahead of its time. I'd love to see the shows again, I'll have to try a Google search.
Thanks, John
Soupy Sales! Ohmigod, haven't thought about him in decades!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Now who's showing there age? :-) Remember Ma & Pa Kettle?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/15/2008 3:13 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
...I think I remember seeing that bench back in '56' at Camp Sequassen..of course it was a newfangled bench back then...we saw no need to waste a space on a name...lol
Subject: Douglas Fir Framing Lumber
First off, what a great design and a nice video to see the bench in action. Thanks a lot. Is there somewhere I can find even a more detailed description for building the bench? I'm BRAND NEW to this and would take any help I can get before I dive in.
My main concern is this inexpensive wood I'm supposed to acquire. I live in Vancouver, BC but if necessary, can make it anywhere down the I-5 corridor to Seattle to pick up my wood.
I'm just not going to pay $14.95 per linear foot for "straight grained" 2x8 Douglas Fir!!! (For the life of me, I can't figure out how these woods can be so expensive in Canada. We have a damn Maple leaf on our flag. Do we, as a country, get so much money exporting our wood or is this from domestic demand? Whatever the cause, it boggles my mind.)
Anyway, that's it. I'm looking for more plans if possible and the best possible source for Douglas Fir between Seattle and Vancouver. I guess I could go north of Vancouver as well but any advice would be most welcome.
Thanks, everyone. I love reading this site.
Sincerely,
jrnymn
The straight grained DF is premium stuff for trim, you want to pick through the lower priced construction lumber and pull out the best stuff there. The DF I'm buying here in New England is all coming from western Canada, it is hard to understand why it should cost more where you are.I think if you search here in Knots for postings about the bench you can find someone who has made up plans.John W.
The ONLY construction lumber I can find in Vancouver, BC is SPRUCE. How would this compare to the Douglas Fir?
It's really frustrating because yes, I see Douglas Fir growing everywhere. I know northern BC is covered with it. I just can't find it in 2x4 or 2x6 or 2x8, whatever.
Can anyone out there help me? I've tried Rona, Home Depot, Windsor Plywood, and even inquired at a hardwood dealer called PJ something or other.
jrnymn
In the U.S., both DF and southern yellow pine are good options for a bench (as well as more expensive hardwoods). They are both reasonably "hard" and tend not deform (hence their use for framing). SYP may be hard to find up in your area (although a lot of pressure treated wood is SYP)- for example, it is easier to find in Maryland than in New Jersey down here. I would not use spruce, hemlock or white pine for a bench.I'm thinking you might want to avoid the "chain" HD type places. A local sawyer might be a good source for DF. I have one here in eastern PA who specializes in Appalachian cherry- but sells bubinga, wenge and teak- I'm sure he could get DF if I wanted it. At least down in the U.S., many hardwood dealers will order for you (especially if it is a common wood like DF)- you specify the grade. I've ordered clear cedar for pergolas and arbors this way.In the U.S., many professional contractors avoid HD and go to local, smaller lumberyards. If you have a boutique contractor (who builds small developments of higher end homes), he might have a source. In any event, 14.95/lin foot is way too much for a bench- you could build it out of maple or oak for that price.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I could probably connect you with some old growth Douglas Fir.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
What do the local home builders use for joists? That's what you want to use. It will be mostly 2x12 stuff, but you can always cut it down.
-Steve
It is a slightly weaker wood, and will dent easier.
The modulus of rupture, and modulus of elasticity of the Douglas fir is about 15 to 20% higher than that of most spruces. The side hardness, (resistance to dents), is roughly 40 to 50% lower for the spruce.
This is based on information published by the the USDA, Forest Products Laboratory, in their, "Wood Handbook - Wood As An Engineering Material". It is available as a free download:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.pdf
Since I originally posted this I have discovered that Douglas Fir, is known as Douglas Spruce in some areas. So, the "spruce" at your lumber sources could in fact be what we are calling Douglas Fir.
Edited 3/16/2008 12:03 am ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
Thank you, everyone, for your input.
Home Depot in my area uses Millstead as their supplier for framing lumber. From their website:
Interior Dimensional Framing Lumber
Spruce, Pine and Douglas Fir (SPF)
The most common western softwoods used in construction; also known as whitewoods. Because these species have similar characteristics, they have been combined into one grade for buying, selling and design standards.
Excellent qualities for building
Check your local building codes for specific requirements.
Douglas Fir (DF)
Exceptional strength, plus superior strength-to-weight ratio
High specific gravity for excellent nail- and plate-holding capability
Excellent dimensional stability. Green DF products season well in position.
Excellent performance record against strong forces resulting from winds, storms and earthquakes
Heartwood provides moderate natural resistance to decay.
Beautiful appearance, with tight knots and close grain
Check your local building codes for specific requirements.
Again, all of the wood in the Vacouver stores is marked "SPF" which seems to include the possibility of getting Douglas Fir. I just would never know myself and given that Millstead has a specific designation for Douglas Fir (DF), I think it's safe to assume that SPF isn't going to include the wood that you were referring to in your original article.
On the other hand, maybe the SPF wood that is offered would be fine for me. If it doesn't hold up, I can always build it again. I just don't want to waste my time. My first effort at a usable bench was made using 4x4 cedar posts. The wood was too soft with fibers crushing as I assembled it and the bench racked badly.
If you say use Douglas Fir, I want to use Douglas Fir. If Douglas Spruce is the same thing, I don't know how I will find out. You can bet no one at Home Depot has a clue.
I've emailed Millstead and hopefully will be able to contribute some information to the forum soon.
Thanks again for the replies.
J-man,Soft woods (conifers essentially) are graded differently than hardwoods. In the U.S., they are often graded for strength (as dimensional lumber for framing) but also for appearance. For a bench, I would look for "Select" boards- either "C Select" (clear) or "D Select", rather than "Common". Either Douglas Fir or Southern Yellow Pine would be hard and stiff enough for a bench; I would avoid eastern white pine, spruce or hemlock.If you call a potential supplier (I would avoid HD or Lowes as they tend to stock the lowest grade, cheapest lumber) and ask if they stock "Select" Doug Fir, you will find out pretty quickly whether they know what they're talking about. I would think that in Canada, Doug Fir would have a trade organization that could direct you to suppliers of higher quality stock. Higher quality DF will not have the tight growth rings of old growth stock, it also may be fairly high in moisture content. I would advise acclimating it to the humidity in your shop to minimize wood movement later on. Do the milling in two stages: first to rough size, then wait a week or longer (depending on how wet the wood is) and so the final milling to size.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Douglas-fir (which, by the way, is more closely related to pines than to true firs) is pinkish or orangeish in color, whereas spruce is whitish. Pines are typically pale yellowish, but it varies from species to species.
Go for floor joist material (2x12s) and cut them down to the required size. You are more likely to get Douglas-fir that way. And no matter what you get, if it's rated for use as joists, it will be of better quality (e.g., no big knots).
-Steve
Probably any of them would be fine. The pine and spruce are quite a bit softer, but should work ok. You may need to beef up the sizes on the stringers, and modify the joinery a little to stiffen things up, but it will work just fine.
As I said, if you want good clear SPF, look for structural grade, in the longer lengths. It will cost more, but the wood is considerably better than stud grade.
It is similar to getting Firsts and Seconds, as opposed to No. 2 Common in hardwoods.
Check this out: http://www.awc.org/helpoutreach/faq/FAQfiles/SPF_vs._SPF-S.html
SPF = Spruce, Pine, Fir according to this site.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I think it's all getting to be reeeeel scary when you can't by DF in VC-BC. Maybe a trip down to Port Angeles on the Black Ball. WA. has a lot of DF :-)John
As John said look for framing lumber. What you want is structural grade, it has far less knots than stud grade.
Last time I bought some, I paid the premium to get 16-footers, and have them cut into 8-ft lengths.
The shorter stuff had all been picked through and the stuff left had quite a few knots. The sixteens were still banded, and I got first pick. So, I could find 8 with just a few pin hole knots.
Jrny, even down here finding decent 2x10's can be frustrating, but Jigs' suggstion to by 16' lengths is spot-on. It's much easier to find good grain orientation and tighter grain in those longer boards (from bigger trees).
If you head down I-5, there are a couple of independent lumber stores in Bellingham. If you want to try a Big Box store, be sure to try Lowe's. I've found in general their lumber is somewhat better than Home Depot.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
There is a supplier over here on Vancouver Island that sells douglas fir. http://www.westwindhardwood.com/Hope this helps
It could be the grade that you are asking for. You can find tight grain product in grades such as D and Btr or #1 shop both of these products are cut for industrial use. You might have to do some selecting for grain but both are available. The Issue i believe that you are having is there are very few mills that want to cut douglas fir because the market is so bad on framing lumber right now. Which makes a shortage of higher end product.
Hope this helps
however I have a concern with the wedge style "traps"
Did you ever grab your mate in a wedge you made with one arm? As long as she felt safe did she object?
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