New Delta Hybrids == Craftsman 22124
Ribeye
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
At least it sure looks that way to these weary old eyes!
I saw the two-page spread (adv) in the current Workbench mag and thought “that sure looks like that ‘thing’ I’ve had sittin’ out on the back patio for that past year!”
A look through the Delta site ( http://www.deltamachinery.com/hybrid ) went a long way toward convincing me that Delta is now rebranding Orion’s big hybrid saw as a Delta Hybrid. (This is the saw sold by Sears as the Craftsman Professional model #22124.)
It’s nice to see such a high confirmation of the quality level of the Craftsman TS when an outfit like Delta Machinery sells the same saw as their own — and treats it as high-end machine 🙂
— Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
(it might well be the only chance you get.)
Replies
Anyone else get a blank black page from that link? The 3 hybrid models can be accessed via this page:
http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=736
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
There's nothing wrong with the original link I posted. It works quite well on my cable connection ... perhaps you have dial-up problems and can't receive the download before your patience times out :-)
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
Delta has been bought by Black and Decker and has been moving their production to China over the past few years. I'm not saying that their quality standards have dropped automatically as a result, but I wouldn't presume that the Delta of today is the company you are familiar with in years past.
John W.
This has been discussed pretty recently. The new Delta Hybrid is essentially the Craftsman 22124, but there are some differences. The one I have read is that the 22124's trunnion is cabinet-mounted, while the Delta's is table-mounted.
The 22124 was on sale a week or so ago for $849 (Craftsman Club) and apparently at least some folks were able to apply still further discounts and really get it at a steal.
Both saws are made by Orion, which I understand to be a group of folks who left Delta.
"the 22124's trunnion is cabinet-mounted, while the Delta's is table-mounted." That makes the Craftsman a heck of alot better in my book!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forestgirl,
All other things being equal, a table mounted trunnion assembly is a better design than a cabinet mounted one. Table mounted trunnions have gotten a bad reputation because they are used on contractor's saws which have a number of design flaws that make them inaccurate, mostly due the way the motor is mounted.
Some of the best saws ever made had table mounted trunnions. The new Ridgid contractor's style saw, which has an entirely new design for the arbor and motor mount, has a table mounted trunnion assembly and it is one of the best saws on the market today in any price range.
John W.
"...The new Ridgid contractor's style saw, which has an entirely new design for the arbor and motor mount, has a table mounted trunnion assembly and it is one of the best saws on the market today in any price range."
I really doubt you'd get a majority opinion to agree with that statement, let alone pass as absolute truth. The "newly designed arbor and motor mount" have been standard fair on the Emerson made Craftsman saws since at least the early 80s. The 3650 has had a myriad of issues since it's introduction which include motor vibration due to bent fans, leg wobble, and arbor issues that have been well document. It also has a plastic handle on an aluminum fence that is not necessarily a crowd favorite when compared to a steel Biese, a really bad blade, a 2-1/2" dust port, and still suffers the same space issues as other contractor saws with it's motor sticking out the back. It does offer an improved alignment mechanism, nice mobile base and is priced well. Even though it's reviewed well recently (and I have my suspicions about those), it's not even a universally favorite choice in it's price range, but when you compare to any saw at any price on the market it doesn't even register on the radar....it's arguably the best saw at HD! I'm not quite sure what supports your statement...
Edited 10/6/2005 1:42 pm ET by scotty
I think that you are making unfair compairisons. There are no $600 contractor saws that come with "a good blade, Beismier fence, 4" dust port, all metal handles" Only the Powermatic and top o' the line Delta have Beis style fences and they are a lot closer to $1,000 bucks, but still lack most of the fratures the Ridgid has. John didn't mention that the Ridgid also has a TEFC motor, also not usually found on contractor saws. I dont think John meant that the Ridgid is better than a $1,800 cabinet saw, and really the only saws that have all those features are cabinet saws.
Of the problems the Ridgid had, every thing was quickly addressed. In fact name me one other tool company who sells a $600 table saw that you can simply take back to Home Depot and ask for another one, or your money back! NO ONE. I have bought tools from machinery suppliers and I pray every time that there are no problems because there is no way they are going to allow me to bring it back for an exchange.
Also from what I've been hearing Jhon's opinion that is the majority within the price range.
Mike
I think it's an unfair comparison too, but I didn't make it...John did. The BT-3100 comes with a good blade...it's $300. My 22124 came with a Leitz blade...I got it for $594....it has a 4" dust port too, as do the 22104 and 22114. The Ridgid's blade is particularly bad and would probably be better off without one IMO...it's added into the cost. All 4 Griz saws, the GI, the Woodtek, and the Bridgewood all have Biese or Biese type fences and 4" ports on their dust trays...those are around that general $525-$700 price range. My statements about the blade and the quality issues were to put the "best saw in the world" claim in perspective. The 3650 has some nice improvements that I'd like to see applied to an enclosed base saw with a more rugged fence. The 3650's improvements are not a panacea for all the table saw quirks in the world...it's simply a good start. Unfortunately they dropped the quality ball on a couple of the basic parts. Notice I never disputed that the Ridgid is a decent saw or challenged anyone's opinion. I disputed that the technology was newly designed (it's not...I just visited an friend who had a 1955 Craftsman with that casted carriage/trunnion setup), and I disputed HIS claim that was one of the best saws at ANY price (his words) ....I think it'd fall well short of a PM66 or General 650...then there's a whole world of saws beyond those. John's spin was extremely pro Ridgid yet overlooked any of the machine's cons (they all have them), contained several inaccuracies, and was never stated as his opinion. BTW - the Ridgid's undercarriage is either cast zinc or cast aluminum...not cast iron.Edited 10/7/2005 7:48 am ET by scotty
Edited 10/7/2005 4:11 pm ET by scotty
My opinion of table-mounted trunnions can be summed up in one acronym. PITA. How often are all the other things equal on a saw of this type? E.g., easy adjustment of the trunnions for blade alignment to the miter slots? Solid enough design to prevent the blade from coming out of alignment when the saw is tilted to 45* Both of these are the reasons I can (occasionally) hate my contractors saw.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
In my testing and working with the Ridgid saw for a few months, I found that both of the problems you have experienced with ordinary contractor's saws were solved by the design of the Ridgid saw.
On the Ridgid saw, the trunnions are designed to be easily loosened and can then be aligned by moving a small cam lever that sticks out from the back of the saw. The trunnions are also designed to stay locked together while the adjustment is made so that nothing slips out of line, there is no need to hold everything together with C clamps. On the Ridgid, precisely aligning the table to the blade is about as hard as setting a watch and takes only a few minutes.
Also, because the trunnions are directly mounted to the underside of the table, once the trunnion bolts are tightened the setting can't slip. On conventional cabinet saws it is quite easy to knock out the table to blade alignment because the two are not attached directly to each other but are instead attached to the top frame of the base cabinet.
The second problem, the blade twisting out of alignment on conventional contractor's saws, is also avoided in the Ridgid design. On conventional saws the carriage under the table is made up of two end castings joined by two long steel rods, this is a weak design that twists easily when the blade is tilted. Also, on the conventional saws the arbor is mounted on a fairly small casting that also shifts under the pull of the drive belt which typically also vibrates a lot.
On the Ridgid saw the carriage is one large iron casting, duplicating the design of full size cabinet saws. This casting is far more solid than the usual multi piece version and the arbor support arm is far more substantial and is designed with a very large bearing surface against the main casting to give it additional stiffness. In addition the tilt lock on the Ridgid saw actually locks the trunnions which means the tilt setting is absolutely slip proof, even full size cabinet saws lack this feature. The multi vee belt drive on the Ridgid is also very smooth running, eliminating the vibration normally transmitted to the blade on ordinary saws with conventional or even link belt drives.
John W.
John, I will certainly defer to you as to the theoretical benefits of the table-mounted design when done properly, but other than the Rigid, is there any other saw that can be said to fit the bill? If table-mounted is better, why isn't it the norm in cabinet shops? Where did things go wrong?! :-(forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forestgirl,All machinery design is a series of trade offs between the engineer's vision of the best design, and how much the machine can be sold for. The 10 inch Unisaw style cabinet saw was designed 60 years ago to sell for a relatively small amount of money and the engineers made a number of compromises in the design to keep the price down. Unfortunately it sold well, probably because it was so inexpensive, and it became the standard design that everyone has copied, crowding out the better, but more expensive, machines. If you are willing to spend more money, you can still buy much more accurate and sturdy table saws. For example, Northfield Foundry and Machine Company, still manufacturing in Minnesota, sells their #4 table saw, 5 HP and a 16 inch blade, but overall not much bigger than a Unisaw with the wings attached, for $11,760. If Northfield was so inclined, they could probably make a 10" version of the #4, but I'd guess that it would probably still sell for $5,000 to $6,000.The small woodworking machine business is probably the least innovative industry on earth, can you think of any other business where the products of 60 or 70 years ago are still being sold in virtually their original form? A few companies are finally starting to innovate and I'm hoping that over the next few years some new saws, and other woodworking machines, are going to be coming to market. Ridgid, Ryobi, the tools designed by the Orion group, the new Powermatic saw, the Saw Stop saw, and the Dewalt table saw, while not all great machines, are at least showing some original thinking and are making use of materials and machining techniques that weren't available when the Unisaws and contractor's saws were designed over half a century ago.John W.
Edited 10/7/2005 9:35 pm ET by JohnWW
If you are near Cape May in south NJ the Rio Grand Sears hardware is closing they have/had some of these Craftsman saws for sale so if you want one call and go get it!
I looked at the video with passing interest, and apart from being amused at the word "sow", and the huge traffic-light like stop switch there was something that got my attention : the use of a poly-vee drive belt, which is far superior to ordinary vee belts. These belts and those flat nylon(?) ones are used on industrial machines most effectively-surely additional costs of manufacture would be out-weighed by the benefits?
The demonstration of the cut and the sound of it were singularly unimpressive-I think the sales man was , well, a salesman.
If I was at a machinery exhibition I would examine that saw, no matter it's questionable genes-on the face of it seems like quite a lot to get for under $1000.00
In the meantime I remain with my vitage Delta with bbumpandmmeasure fence.Philip Marcou
The flat Poly Vee Belt you refer to is called a Serpentine Belt. At least thats what they are called when they're put in cars.
Cheers. Walker1
I very much agree John. But then wood workers have traditionally been a cantankerous bunch that don't like change anyway.
Mike
can you think of any other business where the products of 60 or 70 years ago are still being sold in virtually their original form?
Furniture making, which is both a literal answer to your rhetorical question, and a possible reason for the use of time-tested tools and techniques. :)
Hi Steve - I'm certain that these two saws at least share alot of parts, but am not certain whether or not they roll off the same line. I know the trunnions are different...the 22124's being cabinet mounted. Being familiar with the 22124, you can access the Delta's owner's manual through their website and browse. You'll note many similarities and differences. The motor, motor mount, and drive system appear to be identical, the switch is identical, the insert is identical, the cabinet itself appears to be identical with the exception of the kick plate added to the Delta. The 22124 has 4 bolts to support the wings, while the Delta manual shows 3, so the wings may be different...the 22124 has 12" wings, the Delta may have the more traditional 10"...not really sure. Take a look, you'll probably find it interesting reading...
Why are these saw described as being hybrid?
Bill,
It's a loosely applied term, but it seems to be used to describe a saw that is similar in size and mechanics to a contractor's saw but like a cabinet saw, has the motor underneath the table instead of off the back, and the base is fully enclosed instead of being mounted on legs.
John W.
Possibly a silly question, but I'm curious about the flexibility of the location of the power switch on either saw. I've used my old Craftsman 10" for over 20 years and the switch is mounted to the right. If I get into a problem, it's almost instinctive to reach for the switch with my right hand.
Does anyone know if the switch on these saws can be mounted to the right?
I know on my 22124 I dont reach for the switch with my hands if I get into an uncomfortable situation, Where it is mounted it makes it easy to push off with your upper leg, I dont know if that is by design, but it is the way I do it. Shane
My question is based on the habits I've developed over many years of using my saw and how a new saw will accomodate those habits - right or wrong - lol. Like someone once said (or should have, anyway)......."You can't teach an old dog new tricks."
I know what you mean, I've used a Craftsman radial arm saw for most of my life, the on-off switch is at the end of the arm.
When it finally soiled the bedsheets I got a new Delta 10" RAS, but they put the switch on the saw casing (right near the handle) I've had it a couple of years now and I still reach for the end of the arm. D'Oh!
Muscle memory is powerful magic!
Dave C (45 now too!)
I've been looking at the new hybrid table saws and the switch position is going to be an issue for me. Like you said, muscle memory is a powerful thing. When I built new kitchen cabinets and remodeled the kitchen eight years ago, we moved the silverware drawer. To this day, I still (sometimes) go to the old drawer for a fork. - lol
My "45" refers to the year I was born - lol
I think my next tablesaw will be a hybrid, or a Cabinet saw...I'm tired of sweeping under the contractor saw base! (Good a reason as any!)
Thanks for the tip on the silverware drawer, I'm planning on doing over our kitchen next year. I'll keep the drawer where it is!
My S/N is my birthday so I am just 45, I tell my kids I may be over the hill but I can still see "the hill" in my rear-view mirror! Lol.
David C
I've had my saw on a cabinet for a few years now and have it connected to the dust collector. It doesn't get everything, but it sure cuts down on the cleanup time. I quit sweeping the shop many moons ago after I saw all the fine dust hanging in the air. My garage shop gets vacuumed more often than the house - lol.
The other gadget hanging near the switch is a remote control for the dust collector - a very handy arrangement.
Edited 10/11/2005 9:49 am by Dave45
Depending on how you define "cabinet saw", the Sears new enclosed cabinet offerings kind of fit the description and kind of don't. They do have cabinet mounted trunnions and enclosed bases, but the trunnions are not as beefy as those on a full 3hp cabinet saw like a PM66. I've pretty much succombed to the fact that people will classify them as hybrids no matter what...I often call them a cabinet/hybrid saw or cabinet saw junior.
The so-called "Hybrid" saws have a fully-enclosed cabinet and share many other similarities with "the big boys" (such as the Unisaw).
Although the "Hybrids" have a lower HP rating (~1.75HP) than the full-fledged cabinet saws (~3HP or ~5HP), they will operate on a 120V/15AMP circuit -- the full-fledged cabinet saws require a 220V circuit. (Most hybrids can be very easily changed over to run on 220VAC, however.)
One other thing that sets the two tyes of saw apart is the thin-kerf blade on the "Hybrids" as opposed to the full 1/8th" kerf blade found on the full-fledged saws.
The facts that the "Hybrid" brings many of the benefits of a full-fledged cabinet saw into play at (generally) a much lower price -- while operating on normal house current -- are very valid sales points for many buyers.
I've been using the Craftsman 22124 for over a year now and have become more & more satisfied with it over time. (And I was "in 7th Heaven" when I first got it!)
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
Does anyone know where I could see one of these delta hybrid saws?
I'm in the 400-600 dollar market, but I haven't seen these anywhere.
Cheers,
Ryan
You're not likely to find the Delta hybrid in that price range, but one of the Craftsman models should definitely fit it. The 22104 is $529, but was just on sale recently for $400. With the right timing you might find the 22114 on sale in your price range. Join the Craftsman Club and see if you can swing 10%.
Steve, the original hybrids (came out what? 2 or 3 years ago?) had the same trunnion-to-table attachment that contractors saws do, which was a major difference from the cabinet saws. Sounds like the Craftsman was probably the first improvement (with a beg-your-pardon to John) over that. Now, with the Craftsman design becoming more well-known the line between the hybrids and the cabinet saws is becoming a bit more fuzzy and is reduced to things other than strict design features, no? As you pointed out, horsepower is one. The "beefiness" of the castings and such would be another. The blade issue seems rather minor -- you can put either blade on either saw, owner's preference.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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