NEVER BUYING GRIZZLY AGAIN
Let me qualify that, I’ll never order from Grizzly again, I might break down an drive to their store and pick up something if I get real desperate. Had a super bad experience today with them. First, I’ll admit that I was a big fan of these tools – I have three of their machines in my shop and was purchasing a fourth. I’m on this board all the time telling people to save their money and buy Grizzly – I’m not going to do this again.
Here is what happened – About a week and a half ago I ordered the 8″ Jointer. Order went smoothly until they said that it would be arriving via Overnight Express (shipping company) An earlier delivery had gone bad with these people – they gave me a window of between 10 and 5 and after I waited around my shop all day with a rented forklift they called at 4:30 to tell me they weren’t coming. I raised hell with Grizzly on the phone and they managed to get a truck to my shop by 7:30pm, but I was mad as heck. So on this order when she said Overnight, I said I would prefer an alternate shipper, she said they couldn’t do that and assured me that Overnight was doing better being on time,…etc. so I placed the order.
I get a call yesterday (March 29) from the Overnight Dispatcher. She says they would like to deliver it today (March 30) between 10am and 5pm – I tell her that I’ve had a problem in the past and are they sure they will be delivering it as I have to rent a forklift for the day – she says absolutely. So today comes along and at about 4pm the phone rings – this is Overnight, we aren’t going to get out today, could we schedule another time? I tell her forget it, I’m not sitting here for a whole other day waiting- she says do you want to send it back to the manufacturer – I say I don’t care what they do with it. Now the first time I didn’t really blame Grizzly, but this time I do – they had to know that Overnight has a problem making there deliveries but I guess the almighty price is right.
Here is my cost – $750 for the machine and around $150 for delivery so about $900 or so, plus a day of my time $500, plus the forklift rental – $130 – that’s $1530 – I could have driven to the nearest Woodcraft in Delaware and paid an even $1200 for a Delta 8″ Jointer, so in the end Grizzly turns out to be the more expensive option. I should have learned the first time. The first time it happened I thought I should have at least got an apology letter from Grizzly, maybe a gift-certificate or something in the form of compensation, but nothing came. Anyway, I called Grizzly and of course they were pleasant and said they would look into it. I told them the only way I will take the machine if they can guarantee that Overnight will be at my door at 8am tomorrow. They never got back to me about this so I will be calling first thing for a full refund and then head over to Woodcraft and buy the Delta. Grizzly has got to take some responsibility for the shippers they use. So if you are thinking of ordering a Grizzly, hopefully you are retired and can sit around an wait for a truck that never shows.
Replies
On the other hand, I ordered from Grizzly after hours on a Friday, and my jointer and bandsaw arrived the next Wednesday, exactly when promised and as ordered. The trucking firm they use in my area (Western Washington) is excellent, and I paid a total of $25 for the lift gate fee (well worth it), which covered both machines. The driver even helped me horse the machines into my garage.
On a previous transaction, I'd ordered another jointer. It too arrived very quickly, and I paid a $25 lift gate fee.
In an obviously separate transaction, I ordered a Delta table saw from tools-plus. They shipped it immediately, but used a different carrier. The carrier called and wanted to charge me almost $200 for residential delivery, so I had to rent a trailer and go to downtown Seattle to pick it up. You should have seen me crawling along the highway to get that baby home.
I've had incredible problems with FedEx, but for me UPS and DHL are dead reliable.
Shipping companies are their own world. It amazes me what they can get away with. The national companies are great in some towns, suck in others. Regional freight lines can be difficult to deal with, and it can be hard for shippers to have much control on the quality of service customers get.
Your bad fortune is Delta's gain, though. Funny how it all works.
I've purchase a number of Grizzly machines and have two more on order now, waiting for a backordered cabinet saw to come in on the boat, and an 8" jointer. Every negative story I've heard about Grizzly had to do with delivery, not the machine's they sell. Usually it's machines damaged during delivery. Grizzly has two choice's in this area, buy their own trucks and deliver, or use the trucking companies that are already in business. I don't blame Grizzly for not wanting to branch into the trucking business when there are companies already doing that as their specality. Amazon does the same thing using shipping company's to deliver their products, and I have the same problems with delivery of Amazon products. Unless you have the good fortune to have a machine tool manufacturer or dealer near your home, you're at the mercy of the trucking companies, and my experience with them is they don't give a rip what happens or what you think of them. For me, Grizzly is about three hour drive one way from my home, so I drag my trailer up there and pick up my machines. Yes, I shoot a day doing this, buy at least I'm in control, and I love Grizzly machines and the money I save on them. Shipping problems are temporary, these machines will give me many years of good service, if not a lifetime....
If I were in your position, I'd sue the shipping company in small claims court. It'd be worth it just to give them some grief. They're clearly at fault, not Grizzly. Beyond that, I try to never put myself in a position where I'm depending on overnight or emergent delivery. That never works out for me and just sets me up for grief....every time.
Jeff
Edited 3/31/2006 3:14 am ET by jeff100
A company is only as good as its service. No machine is perfect and most likely will need parts someday. (That is unless it's an Oliver). The problem with a lot of people is they do not know what the best is like to use, so, they shop price only.
Pal, I own and use the best tools for the job their intended for, and I don't own poor quality tools. I've been a machinist and structural engineer for 30 years. I judge my machines based on the quality of the materials used in their construction and the quality of their engineering design. Quality steel, quality castings, quality design, quality workmanship. CAD systems and CNC's machines mean low skill people can produce high quality parts...in China or anywhere else around the world. Except for their low end tools, which I don't buy, Grizzly tools are an excellent value and of good quality. You go right ahead and keep your nose up in the air and spend way too much for your tools. People like you don't understand the concept of 'how good does it need to be?' In my day job I design and build commercial airplanes for a living. Critical components and systems where failure means somebody dies. Wood working machines don't rate that level of engineering and cost. But that's not to say Grizzly machines are not a pleasure to use or perform as well as any other machine, they are, and they do. In capable hands anyway.
Jeff
Edited 3/31/2006 2:54 pm ET by jeff100
Your idea is much like a man who told me how much he liked Sears tools because of their guarantee. He told me about a time when he bought a drill and the shaft broke which holds the chuck. He took it back and they gave him another. The same thing happened about a year later and they replaced it again. I told him to buy a Milwaukee. That drill is still being used 26 years later. Most people would not know the difference between one drill and another until they use them. Expensive Oliver! I only paid about 55% of what a new Grizzly costs. If you are involved in machine design then you would know about the performance of direct drive machines with balanced heads and motors and how much different they are than a belt driven machine with belt slap. Starrett is still around, but how many other companies which sold a cheaper product on price are gone? Everytime I joint a board on my Oliver and there is a suction between the board and table I know why. When it does not bounce up and down and vibrate I know why. Certainly you know the difference between gage blocks and a piece of cold rolled steel. I am sure you know how to wring gage blocks and why that works.
You have fallen victim to the particular shipper Grizzly in your area is contracted with. I'd be p^ssed too, don't get me wrong, but the shipping issue is much more complicated than just choosing between UPS and FedEx. They undoubtedly have a long-term contract with one company in your general area, which enables them to offer the incredibly low shipping prices they charge. Shipping quality of service will vary from one coast to the other, from north to south, etc., etc. About the only thing Grizzly can do, after putting pressure on the shipper, is to change companies at the end of the contract.
Wish I was making $500/day.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"You have fallen victim to the particular shipper Grizzly in your area is contracted with. "But he ASKED for a different shipper, citing a past problem.
...but he asked for a different shipper...
True, and they didn't comply. That would have been the time to walk away.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...
Jeff
"But he ASKED for a different shipper..." The point is, they (Grizzly) contracts with a specific shipper. If they call some other company to do one delivery for them, it's gonna cost a fortune compared to their standard, negotiated, low rates. Obviously, Grizzly needs to either get those guys to provide better service, or find another company, but that doesn't have anything to do with "get me another shipper today."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
He could have contracted his own shipper to make the delivery from Grizzy if Overnite was that bad and there was no other choice. I'm not saying that it was his fault, I've had similar experiences with other manufacters. Remember when Consolidated Freightways went BK & shut down? I was waiting on replacement parts for my new TS that was DOA. My production was dead in the water, as the new TS replaced another one that gave up its ghost I requested a different shipper, they assured me they would try to arrange another shipper, and it shipped CF anyway. Long story short, I got my parts 2 weeks later from UPS (2nd shipment).. About 9 months later I received a call from a forwarding company that they had my parts.
I would have paid the liftgate charge, myself, instead of renting a forklift.
just my 2c.
My TS came by CF (Corn Flakes, as some of their drivers called it) and I arranged to pick it up at their depot. My jointer and bandsaw came by Overnight and I had no problems with them, but it could be the drivers (or the distribution center) in this area are able to get things done without delays.When CF closed, they didn't even call their people to tell them- they found out when they went to work that Monday.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Had good experience with Overnite in the Louisville area. It's probably the local distribution center that's the problem.
BTW, just read that UPS bought Overnite freight. Not sure if this is good or bad.
Gerry
"BTW, just read that UPS bought Overnite freight. Not sure if this is good or bad." Hard to tell. I've certainly had my problems with UPS, at my retail (non-ww'ing) store. The biggest one being, it's almost impossible to get a human being on the phone when you're having a problem with a delivery.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
> Wish I was making $500/day <
I'll bet he does to! That's his charge-out rate. Without knowing anything about this guy, I'll bet he's netting quite a lot less!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Absolutely right Malcolm - that $500 includes all my overhead for my 1500sf shop, utilities, two vehicles, three commercial insurance policies, payroll, office expenses,...etc. In the end, for the time I work a week I'd probably be better off going down to the local McDonalds and working the same hours. Plus, maybe I'd get benifits there, which I didn't even include in the above costs. Don't get me wrong, you can make a lot of money in woodworking if you want to sit in an office and play golf all week to land the big law office account. I prefer playing with tools and wood all day. In the end I'd probably do this for free as I can't imagine doing anything else
I If I were making 500 a day, I would'nt be buying Grizzly. I work 60-70 hrs a week! Ah at least I love my job, That's the payoff.
-Lou
As has been mentioned. It's just your local Overnite folks that suck. When I ordered from Grizzly (only once, thus far), a few days later the local Overnite guys called and we set up for the next afternoon. No specific window of time, but they were more than happy to call me a half hour before delivery so I could meet them at home. The driver was pleasant and off-loaded the crates onto my trailer - so I could get them down the driveway myself - I didn't want the big truck tearing up my gravel driveway.
Trucking companies do not like to deal with individuals, because they cannot meet the customer's expectations. At a business there is always someone around.
I always pick up at the trucking depot. All the depots are a 1 hour round trip. They load me up within 10 minutes.
Grizzly, Springfield MO, is 200 miles from my house. Makes a nice day trip. I picked up a 6" jointer last time I went. I have other 3 tools to pick up as time allows another tri.
It wasn't a home delivery. I have a professional shop in an Industrial Park with a garage door big enough for a tractor trailer to drive through and plenty of room to turn around. I was more mad at Grizzly since I had brought this issue up prior to shipping and they assured me it wouldn't happen again.
Sorry to hear about your bad carrier experience, but I find it hard to fault Grizzly (I don't have any of their stuff BTW - so no I'm no Griz fanatic). But I'm really puzzled as to why you wouldn't just pay the few bucks extra for liftgate service. There's no way that costs as much as the $130 you're paying to rent a forktruck for a day. I think it's been around an extra $50 or so every time I've needed to have something big shipped. It's worked like a charm. They roll it onto the liftgate on a pallet jack, lower the machine and jack to the ground, then roll it right in a set it down where you want it.
If you build it he will come.
The lift gate wouldn't really be that useful to me as once I off load it I need the fork to set it up in my shop. There is really no way to mount the top onto the base without it. And, not being entirely honest, I rent the machine and schedule all my deliveries for the one day - as soon as Overnight gave me the day, I arranged for a large rough lumber and sheet-goods delivery the same day. I know you have to blame the shipper, but, (1) it wasn't the first time, (2) Grizzly knew about problems with this company, and (3) I had asked them to use an alternate shipper and they refused
I had my Grizzly jointer delivered by Overnite in SE PA. I paid for lift-gate service. The driver arrived about 30 minutes late (he was supposed to be there by 6 PM, came at 6:30) but no big deal. He was a nice guy and knew what he was doing. We put the jointer in my garage.The next weekend, I tilted each crate onto a dolly, rolled them from my (detached) garage to the hatch of my basement shop. I had laid 2 x 10s down on the steps. I walked the crates from the dolly onto the planks and slid them into the basement on the inclined plane formed by the 2 xs on the steps. In the basement, I broke open the crates with a pry bar and took inventory. I tilted the base of the jointer onto a mobile base and did the set up and wiring. I tilted the table onto the dolly and rolled it over to a place where I had positioned a differential chain hoist ($60 at HarborFreight), attached by heavy chain to a bearing joist (I-beam). I wrapped more heavy chain around the table, and hoisted it about 60" above the deck. I positioned the base underneath the table and then lowered the table onto the base, secured it and installed the belts. I completed the setup in about 2 hours by myself with a dolly, a hoist, a set of sockets and a Philips screw driver.My point is that there are some variables that you can't control- such as how reliable the shipper is, whether he will be on time, etc. If you set up a tight schedule around these things, you will be disappointed more often than not.I did not need a forklift to set up my jointer, nor a team of weight lifters. The dolly, the hoist and the chain cost about $90 at HF- and I have them in my shop should I need to repeat the process with another tool. If you have the size shop that you describe, I think you could benefit from the same set up.If you enjoy WWing as much as you seem to, then I can't think of a more pleasant way to pass the time waiting for a delivery than making sawdust in the shop without worrying about deadlines or returning a rented fork lift. When the shipper comes, he comes. No worries. As for scheduling all your deliveries on the same day- well probability (and human nature) suggest that one of your shippers will be late or a no-show. I think it is unrealistic to plan for the best possible outcome given that we do not live in the best possible world.Just my 2p,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
While most people seem to agree that it's the particular shipper at fault and seem to think you should expect to make accomodations to work around those issues, I tend to agree with you --- that the responsibility to deliver a product that I purchased in proper working order to my doorstep is the responsibility of the seller -- unless the seller makes it clear upfront that there are some other conditions on the "contract". I have had some horror stories that ate up my time and my $$. Some of those experiences included Delta equipment & Delta shared in some of the fault. That said, I think it would be worth your time to write or email the president of Grizzly about the problem. He hangs out some over at the Sawmillcreek forum and has made it clear that he wants to know of problems. I have seen several cases where he took direct action to help disgruntled (mistreated) customers. I've had similar personal experiences with Tool Crib/Amazon -- although it's much harder to figure out who & how to contact the right person in that organization than it is in most of the woodworking suppliers. When I've taken the time to write a letter detailing the problems and the lost time and $$, usually someone has worked to make amends. It's a pretty competitive business & most companies don't want a disgruntled customer spreading the word on bad experiences.
Will you be compensated adequately for all your time and costs? Probably not, but, to me, a retailer that is willing to take meaningful remedial measures is worth trying again in the future. Given Grizzly is such a tightly controlled company, I'd be willing to bet that something will be done.
I did write an email to the president. As of Saturday I have not heard back from him or Grizzly despite multiple phone calls. Every time I call Grizzly the "supervisor" that I need to talk to is on another call, but I'm assured they will call right back and they never do.
Going to SMC forum and getting the word directly to Mr. Grizzly would be the thing to do. He needs to know the lack of personal contact you're encountering at whatever Grizzly facility you're trying to work with.
Throwing in that $500/day time seems a little over the top.
Do you think there was another shipper Grizzly could have used? I doubt it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Throwing in the $500 is definately not over the top. I was just using it as part of the overall cost analysis. My local Woodcraft is less then an hour away, so I would have spent only 2 hrs of my time instead of a whole day. I buy these machines for work so my time sitting waiting for the machine is not pleasure, its simply work. And this is absolutely Grizzly's fault. For example, on our jobs we sometimes act as the General Contractor. If the electrician comes in and drills a hole through the side of our cabinet, I don't tell the customer to stop blaming me, its the electricians fault, not my problem - wrong - it's my problem and I have to make sure it is properly addressed. Overnight was a subcontractor for Grizzly with whom my purchase agreement is with. My bank statement says Grizzly not Overnight, so I expect them to take care of this problem.
I agree that it is a grizzly problem... but I must say that the $500 is over the top. I can only assume the day of 'promised' delivery you were not sitting in the forklift waiting for the truck to pull up. If you were at your shop, then it's a hard to imagine nothing getting done. You've already stated you had other things delivered and used the forklift, so even that is not an entirely sunk cost.
On the flip side you failed to measure the cost of driving to Woodcraft. If it's a 1 hour drive each way that's 2 hours. The time you'd be at the store probably an hour at least, and the time it would take you to unload the machine. Anyway, that's at least 3 hours of not even being in the shop, about half the day realistically speaking. (At least compared to the Grizzly time window).
Does any of that release Grizzly. No. Grizzly made a delivery promise, and missed the mark... twice. I may not agree with the way you handled things, but that doesn't change the basic problem.
When you call, do you get the name of the person you talk with? Calling a second, third or ? time and not having names, dates and times will usually get you nothing, it doesn't matter who you're calling. I'm not saying it's OK, but that's how CS works. The names and dates give the complaint some weight and if it's one particular person who is dropping the ball in the CS dept, they can address it without having to put all of the good people through an a$$ chewing (which doesn't usually work, anyway). If you ask for a supervisor and they're not available, ask to talk to the super's boss. I don't know what the issue is with them not replying to your calls and e-mails, but any time I have needed to contact them, it took less than a day to get the response if I didn't get through immediately. If you called on a Monday, I would think that they have a backlog from the weekend with past customers calling for info or people placing phone orders. With the amount of shipping they do, it would have to be by regional contract since some shippers don't service all areas of the country. Overnight does, but it was really their fault that it didn't show up on time since they should be able to schedule better than this. Or, it could be that the driver is a schmuck and takes too long to do their job. The Grizzly CS person may have had the best intentions in telling you that it wouldn't happen again and may have done everything in their power to keep it from happening, but it's totally possible that they were over-ridden and any change they made was canceled. Unless names and dates are available, not much can be done to fix the problem. I'd be pretty PO'd too, but there are ways to find a solution to a situation like this and getting specific info is part of that. Also, the time and effort spent here hasn't really helped you, other than being able to vent about it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I called Grizzly to order the GO490 7 told them I didn't want Overnite as the carrier because I've had dealings with them before breaking things. They told me they were contracted to Overnite & couldn't ship it any other way. I told tham to cancel the order. I WILL NOT buy anything that is shipped by Overnite period.
JJBX
If I were in your position, I'd do exactly the same thing. If I were in Grizzly's position, I'd do exactly the same thing. It's just a tough situation when they're contractually stuck with someone you realize won't give you good service.
Sometimes, thinks cannot work out.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"I WILL NOT buy anything that is shipped by Overnite period." Then that should have been the title of your thread. (IMHO, of course)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Since Grizzly contracts the delivery for the buyer. This is a Grizzly problem. This is part of their customer service, which in this case appears to be lacking.
Every time I see one of these Grizzly threads come up I have to wonder... Why do people always put the fault of the problem on the buyer? Every time a thread like this comes up going back to the infamous drill press thread, I always read "You should have done this..." It always goes back to the buyer. Really it isn't very fair.
In this case the buyer asked for a different method of delivery, it was refused and he was assured on the reliability of the shipper. He had one delivery in the past that had gone bad, but one instance does not constitute a track record of poor deliveries. It was reasonable on his part to expect them to deliver within the window.
Since Grizzly is a 'mail order' company delivery problems are probably reasonably common. From a customer service perspective they should have policies to deal with it rather than making the customer jump through hoops.
Buyer of Grizzly should be away that delivery problems occur, and should be prepared for that. I guess that's the problem with mail order delivery on big machines, and I do not think it's isolated to Grizzly.
I realize that most of us are emotionally attached to our machines (I am too), but we should not let this blind us to the fact that every company has problems.
Yes, you are right, in the long-run it is Grizzly's problem (if there is a significant problem with the shipper), but to expect them to change just for one delivery is simply not realistic.
Trust me, I expect excellent service from any company I deal with, and if I have problems with one, I persue the solution with a great deal of grit and determination, but (usually) not rudeness or unbridled temper, which gets you nowhere fast.
"It always goes back to the buyer. Really it isn't very fair." Whether it's fair or not really depends on how the buyer handled the situation. Quite often, there's some responsibility on the buyer's end of things. Totally depends on the details of the given situation, and we only hear one side of the story and even that information is heavily filtered.
Anectodal evidence has led me to believe that the quality of shipping for Grizzly varies according to geography. That shouldn't be surprising I guess. Actually, seems like customer service varies along the same lines. My contact with CS and tech support in Bellingham has been quite positive. Have never had anything shipped, so no comment there. The one Grizzly big tool I've bought was a band saw we picked up on a visit.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
...but to expect them to change just for one delivery is simply not realistic.
You are correct. In this case we have one customer who has had two bad experiences. There are of course many factors we do not know, perhaps the OP is out of the shippers regular routes, and in all other cases the shipper has stellar performance. However as I stated in my original post the problem is mainly a customer service issue. The buyer asked for a different shipment method, and was reassured on the current method. When that method failed, when the buyer had already expressed concern, the company has made it difficult to rectify the problem.Whether it's fair or not really depends on how the buyer handled the situation.
This is the kind of statement I was talking about. This puts it back on the buyer in an unfair manner. The company has made a mistake, it is up to them to correct it. It is very unfair to expect the buyer to correct the problem. The buyers only responsibility is to inform the company of the error in a professional manner (No rudeness, no temper, free of emotion). He should not have to follow up with the company every two hours until the matter is resolved; if it has to be done this shows very poor customer service on the part of the company.
This a little off thread now. We should be a little less critical of those who have problems with companies. It is unfair to say it's not the companies fault, YOU should do... This is a general statement about these threads, in this case the OP was probably wrong.
In my opinion the OP let emotion get in the way of the machine being delivered. Had he taken delivery the next day he would have only lost the cost of the forklift. From there he could have asked Grizzly for the shipping cost to help cover the cost of the rental. My guess is they would have done this, regardless he would have only been out the cost of one day rental on the forklift. Now that the machine was refused he's made the problem infinitely more complicated for both himself and Grizzly.
This brings me to my next point, if people are going to complain about a company. They should probably cool down a bit before they push send. Let it sit for a week or two, or maybe even until the problem is fully resolved. I find very few times I'm still as mad a week later as I was when the incident took place.
I'm sure Grizzly is a fine company, I would have one of those 8" jointers if they delivered to Canada. The thing about forums is you rarely here about the glowing reviews of a company. People that are happy with a machine rarely think about sitting down to write a realistic review; one the points out both the shortcomings and strengths of the product, or they post in depth reviews after only owning the product for a very short time. (As a side note, I do read and enjoy your reviews. Thanks)
Anyway this is getting a bit long, so I'll end it now. Good luck in the shop.
Buster
I agree we've gone on close to long enough. I just want to complete the thought you started, with one of the quotes above, to show the true sentiment of what I was saying. To follow up the quote "Whether it's fair or not really depends on how the buyer handled the situation." my next sentence was "Quite often, there's some responsibility on the buyer's end of things." Notice that I said "quite often" (not always) and "some" not all.
In general, I agree with what you've said about dealing with these situations.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/3/2006 6:22 pm by forestgirl
While it's Overnight that blew it on the delivery, it becomes Grizzly's problem because they contracted with Overnight and ultimately, it's the customer who suffers. If there are 3 problems out of 100, while it's not a terrible ratio when you're only looking at the numbers, as a customer it's a bad thing that's happening, probably at a bad time. It's definitely something that needs to be addressed but if someone tells me that something bad won't happen again, I'm getting names so I have ammo in case it does.I don't know that I would have ever expected anything to be delivered absolutely on time, though. Usually, a phone call to the trucking company can find out if the shipment is on time.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."While it's Pvernight's
Buyer of Grizzly should be away that delivery problems occur, and should be prepared for that. I guess that's the problem with mail order delivery on big machines, and I do not think it's isolated to Grizzly.
I think that's about right. Whe I'm expecting a freight delivery, I usually just tell the dispatcher to tell the driver to give me a call on my cellphone when he is about 45 minutes away, so I'm not stuck waiting all day for them to show up. 'works pretty well.
The rental forklift thing can be an issue; I can see how that's not the best way to handle the freight delivery problem (BTW, I asl would like to know where one can get one of those $200 forklifts).
One other thng to keep in mind is that Grizzly is not, strictly speaking, a "mail order" company. They don't mail things to you, they freight them. 'different rules apply; read the Terms and Conditions in their catalog or their website. The tools are sold FOB the Grizzly location. That means that you acquire Title (ownership) of the tool as soon as it is loaded on the truck at Grizzly. How it gets to you is a matter between you and the freight company, legally. The freight company is not Grizzly's subcontractor, it is yours. Grizzly is providing a service by arranging shipping on your behalf with their preferred shipper, but you could just as well arrange to have your own shipper pick up the tool for you instead.
Edited 4/12/2006 7:06 pm by BarryO
All this talk comes down to the shipping problem. This is the reason I have quit saving $25 by ordering on line and go to my local Woodcraft. I have had several machines that after using them for a short time would go bad and I took them back, got an exchange and was on my way. Of course, I didn't save the $25 but I wasn't without a machine for weeks waiting for a return. Imagine having to repack and send back a machine with these shippers.
Something to remember is that freight shipping is not like mailing with the USPS, UPS, or Fed Ex. The freight industry puts a priority on cost, not speed. They stress eficiency in their package routing and the delivery routes. Freight companies are not set up to deal with non-industrial/comercial clients. They are used to loading docks, fork lifts, wharehouses, and a dedicated in house recieving system. When you call and tell them that you are renting a fork lift and have taken the day off to wait for them...... they really don't care. If anything they are thinking "Great, another residential delivery". There are a couple of options to help reduce the headaches for you.
First of all dont ask for a residential / liftgate delivery. If you don't have the necessary docks or forklift on site then have them keep it in the terminal for will call. Every shipper I have dealt with prefered this setup. They will notify you when the item arives then you can go get it your self. If necessary you can rent a lift gate truck but I have never needed to. What I do is rent a low trailer, lay heavy lumber on the deck to act as skids to help me unload, then I go to the terminal where they will fork lift it into my trailer. This actually saves you money if you already have a trailer.
You can also pay a moving company to pick it up for you. A larger company will have a lift gate truck and pallet jacks to do it easily and they will do it for $100.
Finally if you are hell bent on having it delivered to your shop on your schedule call a "hot shot" service. These are guys with large 2 ton fifth wheel trucks and trailers who drive around the country hauling stuff. They are more expensive than freight but they are very fast and can work on your time line.
I understand your frustration but it is like driving a Hummer and complaining about the size of parking spots. The issue is not so much the shipper, but your expectations. I know what you are thinking... if they say they will drop it by a certain time they the should follow through with that commitment. But in the shipping industry plus or minus a day is not generally a big deal. It is the same as you promising that you will deliver the project at 3:00 next thursday. Sometimes we are late, or something goes wrong and the customer is generally understanding. However if your customer buys furniture from Rooms to Go they expect them to deliver their purchase as promised... and they do.
Consider terminal will call in the future and it will hopefully save you a lot of headaches.
Mike
I have had similar shipping problems also. However, I dont care about all the excuses in the world," they dont like to ship residential (then quit)" , "in the shipping buisines, its normal to be a day or two either way (then get out).
Bottom line- GRIZZLYS PROBLEM AND FAULT (their SUB CONTRACTOR). EITHER THEY RECTIFY TO A RESONABLE DEGREE OR I WOULD SHIP THE @#$%^&* MACHINE BACK AT MY OWN COST <IF NEED BE > AND TELL THEM TO SCREW.
For all of you that want to be walked over, they lay down and be a doormat. But money talks and as soon as enough of us start to speak with our wallets, then they will deliver better products and service.
To all, this post paints me in the light of being mad, which I am not, but they market directly to us and then start with the excuses. Hainesport is now out an additional few hundred bucks, no responce, and all the aggrevation.
SEND IT BACK!!
Edited 4/5/2006 5:15 pm ET by joepez
I think anger is misplaced here. Do you get mad at Amazon if your postman does a crappy job? That would be silly... but it would not be silly to seek another vendor if you didn't want to deal with Amazon, whether the problem is Amazon's "fault" or not.
This is all just a business decision. You know the score, make your choice.
I think this thread is useful, particularly for hobbyists considering dealing with a freight company for the first time. Here is a small list of things such a person should consider before ordering:
1) Find out what carrier the shipper will be using.
2) Contact the local depot for that carrier, explain what you'll be receiving, and ask about residential delivery. Do they do residential delivery? Is there a fee? Do trucks have liftgates (assuming you don't have a loading dock)? Is there a fee? Will the driver help you get the item into your garage / shop?
3) If there is visible damage on the crate, do NOT automatically accept delivery. It is very normal to refuse delivery if the goods are damaged. If you decide to accept, ensure ALL visible damage is noted on the bill of lading you sign, then document everything with pictures as you open it up.
I dealt with one local company that simply hates doing residential. They charge $175 just for the residential delivery, and lift gates aren't even available. They'll get it to the back of the truck, lifting it off is my responsibility. With this company, I rented a trailer and picked the item (a table saw) up at their terminal.
Another company, I paid a reasonable $25 for liftgate service, and the guy helped me get all three items into my garage.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I think anger is misplaced here. Do you get mad at Amazon if your postman does a crappy job? That would be silly... but it would not be silly to seek another vendor if you didn't want to deal with Amazon, whether the problem is Amazon's "fault" or not.
I think the anger is misplaced to begin with. In the end it's all business, and sometimes mistakes happen... Twice. As I said in my earlier post, it's when you let emotions get in the way that things become complicated. Working with a company to find a solution reasonable to both parties does not make a person a doormat. However getting angry and doing thinks 'on principle' does make one a doorknob.
In a way you are correct. There are subtle differences between ordering through Amazon and Grizzly, at least in this case. Amazon gives you a choice in how it is to be shipped doesn't it? The postal system makes it's own guarantees on delivery to the shipper and the buyer, and also doesn't make a guarantee to delivery on this date at this time... Finally Amazon is done on the computer.
With this buyers experience, a Grizzly rep assured him of this shipping method, and seemingly only gave him this choice even after concerns were raised.
Shipping large items appears to be a complicated way to send things. Specifically from the non-industrial view point. Since Grizzly sells to residential users, and arranges the shipping there is a reasonable expectation of assistance from the company.
I think your comments are useful for people considering delivery. Thank You.
Buster
OK, but he said his shop is in an industrial park, so it really doesn't qualify as residential but it may still be delivered to flat ground. It may even have a loading dock, but it might not be easy or possible for him to lift machinery like this. True, the piece he ordered isn't particularly light, but if he had some ramps and access to a pallet jack, it could be lowered to the ground and moved with the PJ. I picked up my tablesaw and bandsaw from the depot when I ordered each one (different times). Both were on a loading dock and we got them into my pickup bed. I unloaded them myself when I got home with some 2x, by sliding them to the ground. The BS was a lot lighter than the TS (about 450#) but it wasn't bad. However, if I wasn't physically able to do this, it would have been another story.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
<"I WOULD SHIP THE @#$%^&* MACHINE BACK AT MY OWN COST <IF NEED BE > AND TELL THEM TO SCREW. ">
The aim here is to acquire a tool. It's not a wedding.
Getting emotional won't help, moral outrage carries little weight in a business transaction. Sending a jointer back at your own expense leaves you with a shipping bill and no tool. I have not been able to joint many boards with a shipping bill.
When you buy a tool that weighs over 75 lbs, shipping is ALWAYS an issue. There are several choices- you can go to a local distributor, buy a Delta or a Powermatic, and arrange delivery on a one off basis.
If you decide to buy from Grizzly or a similar web-based outfit, you may find that the tool is a better value (or not), or has features that are more useful to you than one stocked locally. At that point, you need to make a decison: is the price or quality or features attractive enough to offset the shipping costs and uncertainty? For many people, they are.
Once you decide to have something shipped common carrier, you also have several options- you can pick it up at the terminal, or arrange local and/or liftgate service. You also have to have a contingency plan in place, because common carrier is NOT FedEx. I had a heavy industrial table delivered CC some years ago. I knew that I wasn't going to be home, so I went to a business in town that was open all day, and asked them to receive it for me. They did, I paid them $10 for their trouble and picked it up the next day. That was my contingency plan.
You can rage against the bear or any other vendor, but again, when you have a 450 lb tool delivered CC, shipping is part of the risk equation. If you don't like that, order from a local distributor. In these sots of things, you will get much farther with logic than histrionics.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Your definetly right on you should leave the emotion out of it. And you take a shot with mail order. But he contacted them to no avail, no cust service, not even a apology.
Yep, I would be out a machine, and a few bucks to ship back and nothing to joint on.(temporary). < In these sots of things, you will get much farther with logic than histrionics.> yep, I agree, you get futher with honey than vinigar. However, at some point, enough lousy service is enough, and you take your business elsewhere. It becomes a point of principle. One machine wont hurt the bear, but why accept crummy service when you have a choice?
I had a similar problem with another brand machine shipped cc. But the company stepped up (still was delivered way past schedule ) and compesated me to my satisfaction. Thats the point.
respectfully
joe p
Not to disagree with you, but how well do you think your experience with this 'other' company (the implication being 'better' company) would have been if you let your emotions get out of control and refused to take delivery. Likely you would have gotten the same treatment as the other poster. As it was, you took delivery and the machine tool company 'stepped up' to keep you happy as a customer. I seriously doubt they'd have done this if you refused delivery, you'd have been treated just like the other poster. If you refuse delivery, then you in effect remove yourself from 'customer' status, and at that point a company has no reason to try to appease you. Like everyone here has stated over and over again, business is business.
Not to point the finger, I've been there, done that, got the T shirt. I learned my lesson. A couple of times....
Jeff
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I see everyone's point, and maybe I would not send the machine back, <which I dont own or have not bought a machine from Grizz, no bias> however, I would certainly not purchase another machine from the comapny. Would take business elsewhere. Although price is important, there are many other factors in what makes a machine a good purchase, including mfg support.
Regards joe p
When price is long forgotten, service is always remembered.
When overnite delivered my Grizzly band saw it was crated on its back in a crate approx 7' in length. It was loaded on the truck first, with the pallet access supports running perpendicular to its length. As the driver attempted to move the crate with his pallet jack it became obvious why it was loaded first. The pallet jack could be driven straight into the side of the pallet but he could not turn the loaded unit(trailer not wide enough), he could only drag to rear of trailer(which would have been fine had there been a dock). At approx 6' from the end of trailer he disengaged the pallet jack and pushed one end of the crate rearward pivoting to trailer side.He manuvered the pallet jack past the crate and turned it facing the rear of truck. Not having access to end of crate and he and i together could not slide crate we had to use iron working bars to inch crate back around to allow access to pallet jack to move load on to the rear. This was time consuming and was not accomplished by the driver alone. He did not have iron bars or a rear mounted winch to assist him. He had a willing participant. Had there been other crates on the truck we would have had to unload , remove my crate and reload. Expectations of the recipiant and the objectivity of the trucking company are not always shared on the same time line. Minimal damage, minimal handling and routes that provide profitability, anything more is available for a price. Grizzly contractors provide service, at a price, with minimal shipping damage. The overnite terminal for upper/middle and lower delaware is located in Federalsburg, Md. Their dispatcher makes delivery schedules that include thousands of parcels per week. The Grizzly units that come to Delaware or anywhere else are just in this number.
Shows the value of a good loadmaster.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Ordered a PSI table saw guard two weeks ago. Arrived as promised -- except when the UPS man put it on the ground, some parts fell out and the box was obviously damaged! So I refused delivery. Called PSI the next day. Lady was pleasant, said I did the correct thing (refusing delivery), and said that she would get the warehouse to ship another one the next day.
Checked my emails tonight. It was shipped as promised and will arrive Friday supposedly. That is the way a company should operate!!!
Are you listening Grizzly?
Lesson: Deal only with companies that want your business, deserve your business, and demonstrate their commitment to the customer with product, service, and support!
Sounds like Grizzly is NOT one of these companies. Let the buyer beware!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I may have missed it, so who said they refused delivery on a Grizzly product and ended up ill-treated? I thought the original poster was upset that the trucking company didn't show up when it promised, costing him time and money, so he told 'em to send it back to Grizzly; there was no indication that Grizzly refused to accept it back, in fact my recollection is that the trucking company wanted to deliver it the next day but that wasn't satisfactory. Did your replacement for the item destroyed by UPS come the next day? Wouldn't the situation you found yourself in have been, in fact, just as bad for the original poster as what he faced?
Actually it doesn't sound like UPS did a very good job for you. They damaged the box in transit and dumped the pieces on the ground. Will you still do business with Penn State if they wish to ship via UPS?
Another poster earlier pointed out, fairly I think, that freight companies do not operate like UPS. They are far more prepared to deal with commercial entities. By the way, any idea what it would cost to ship a jointer via UPS?
If you're arguing that PSI has better service than Grizzly, who knows -- you might be right, but you haven't proven your case here.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John,
You make some good points. However, if you have been following all the Grizzly controversies over the last several months, you should recognize that Grizzly monitors KNOTS, their customer service is sometimes suspect, and their choice of shippers is questionable.
That said, I was only pointing out that I was very pleased with the customer service displayed by PSI and was suggesting that Grizzly needs to make some changes!
Agreed?
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
That said, I was only pointing out that I was very pleased with the customer service displayed by PSI and was suggesting that Grizzly needs to make some changes!
And I was only pointing out that Grizzly offered the same remedies PSI did, actually better assuming your replacements didn't arrive next day.
Agreed? :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Did the second one come by UPS as well, which would be similiar to the original post? I think he was upset they would not allow him to change carriers. I orderd the 1023 TS from griz. It showed up damaged by the carrier. Looks like they stacked a ton of boxes on top of it. Overnite express was the carrier. Even the driver said he did not blame me for refusing delivery, but he had to attempt delivery for insurance purposes. I took a few pics with the digital camera, and imediately called griz customer support. They apologized and had another one out the door to me the next day. The next one arrived (again by overnite express) in good condition. I even recevied an unsolicited follow-up call from Griz to make sure everything was ok. I have made three major (at least to my budged) purchases (TS,BS, and slot mortiser), and all have been very well handled. I will not hesitate to buy from them again. I'm looking at a big 8" jointer now. Just can't figure on how to slip it in the garage past the wife.
<<"I'm looking at a big 8" jointer now. Just can't figure on how to slip it in the garage past the wife.">>It's pretty thin- she might not notice. You could tell her it's a planter (use silk flowers- less chance of rusting...)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"I'm looking at a big 8" jointer now. Just can't figure on how to slip it in the garage past the wife." Get her one of those all-day spa treats! But you'll definitely have to make sure they deliver on the right day! When she gets home, she'll be sooooo relaxed and feel soooooo beautiful, she won't care if you built a new shop while she was gone, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks, thats not a bad Idea! I'll throw in a bottle of wine to go with it.
Bones,
If I remember correctly, you now live in tornado alley..that jointer is a safe place to hide under....think she'll buy that logic?
You may have a good point BG. Although, I took a tour of an area a F2 hit about 30 minutes away, and it splintered an oak that was about 3ft through at the trunk. I figure I have two years here, so I'd better learn to live with it.
"I'm looking at a big 8" jointer now. Just can't figure on how to slip it in the garage past the wife. : You have 3 pieces of green in there now do you think she will notice a 4th. Of course if you figure out how to pay cash for it out of pocket she probably wouldn't notice it so soon if at all.Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Been married for 21 years to that wonderful little lady. I have not found a successful method for the old "slip it by her" yet. I have it as a goal for the 25th.
I've always been a believer of "practice makes perfect". If you don't succeed at getting this by her, try another machine. Eventually, you'll get one by undetected.
It's an idea, but maybe not a good idea.
Tell her its a backup ironing board and that you intend to help her out if there's an ironing backlog.
"Tell her its a backup ironing board ...." Excellent idea! "So, honey, what's that spinning thing in the middle of the board?" Answer: High-speed clothes-folding device. ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've got the answer. Ship it to my house and I'll hide it from her. She'll never see it.
You are too kind!
Bones,
I am very happy you are pleased with Grizzly. I think it would be great if all their customers were as happy. I have nothing against Grizzly. I have shopped with them before, both by phone and at the Missouri store. I merely was stating that I am pleased with the customer service at PSI on my first order with them.
After following the many post concerning Grizzly, I stand by my statements that it seems a lot of their customers are unhappy and that is not good for any company!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
You all must not be married if you have to log on to argue. I think it pointless to try to convince someone else they are wrong. No need to talk to someone who isn't listening.
I just tell my wife I need it to finish that project that stays on me about. This is in response to you trying to get that jointer past your wife.
Edited 5/1/2006 1:44 am ET by miller
I've already used that one. My niece (that we both adore) is getting married this summer. For a wedding present, I'm making a blanket chest that is dovetailed corners, and a drawer. I told her to do the job right, I needed the leigh d4. She went for it, but I don't think the second time around it would work. For this job, since the board will be wider than my old 6" jointer, I'll use the old LN #7 Jointer. It actually amazed me how quickly I could flatten a board with a hand plane. Go figure!
I recently purchased some 16/4 x 8'' African Mahogany. I am a new wood worker building up my tools. I own a 6 1/8'' jointer so I was wondering if I should start with buying the #6 Veritas or the Veritas bevel-up jointer to mill this up, and some table tops I plan to do in the future. Let me know your experience.
I can point you to an experienced person. I'd recommend the DVD "Rough to Ready" by Rob Cosman, available from http://www.Lie-Nielsen.com. You can get a good idea of the techniques you'll need to learn, and at least one expert's idea of what tools you'll want to have on hand.
Lacking a person who would teach me in person, I found this very helpful, even more so than the several excellent books on the subject I've read. Something about seeing it done really flipped on a light for me.
To answer your question directly, I'd suggest that if you're going to do table tops, you might consider a #7 or #8 instead of a #6 for jointing. If you're going to have to do thicknessing, consider adding a scrub (maybe the EC wooden scrub), a #5 1/2 or so to knock out the deep marks left by the scrub, a #7 or #8 to get it dead flat, and a #4 1/2 or so for smoothing. Others will suggest different sets.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Thank you for the info. I think I will most likely go with the #7. as far as milling I can cut it to the rough size I need and then mill it down. Thank you for your response I have had some trouble getting people to answer me here. I guess its because I am new.
I don't think you'll find the place unfriendly. Some of the questions that have been covered a number of times in the past, have to sit for a bit before someone will respond. This would be more understandable if the search function worked better, but the sense of deja vu can be overwhelming at times.
I've been here for less than a year, and am not very experienced, so I often hesitate to answer. Still, if I put something really wrong, the more experienced folks will always jump in and help.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
My 2p: the most useful planes are #5 jack, 4 1/2 York pitch smoother, low angle block and #7 jointer. That is the core- you can add many more rabbets, router planes etc.For jointing, most say the #7 is the choice- the #8 is a bit of a bear.LN makes some fine planes- expensive but ready for use right out of the box. LV is also quite good and a bit less expensive.If budget is a concern, buy used old (pre-WWII) Stanleys. They made millions, and they are the models for the LN and other fine modern planes. Baileys are fine- Bedrocks are more expensive and the premium is more for collectability than for WWing virtue.My #5 is a Bailey, ca 1890. I tuned ("fettled") it in about 90 minutes- lapping the sole and the iron on different grits of sandpaper on top of float glass. End result is as good as anything I've used- fine curl shavings, dead flat: total investment ~$35. You can even get an A2 blade from a 3rd party if you like.Avoid cheap modern planes (e.g. Anants, etc). The quality of the machining and the steel isn't there- the "modern" Stanleys are not much better.Get Hack's book on handplanes if you need a step by step- it's worth it for the pix alone. Not only will you save some serious coin on hardware, but after you have tuned a few old planes, you'll really understand their use and appreciate them all the more.As for the hue and cry about Grizzly, Festool- etc... try not to pay too much attention to the less well hinged on this site. There are plenty who troll around trying to stir up controversy to call attention to themselves. Amongst the juveniles there are a few grown ups and they are pretty helpful.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
81treehouse,You wrote this: "Lesson: Deal only with companies that want your business, deserve your business, and demonstrate their commitment to the customer with product, service, and support!"The origintator of this discussion should actually be happy that his shipping hassles with Grizzly occurred before the machine even arrived! Believe me, it's even worse dealing with Grizzly when you own one of their machines for a short while and discover defects requiring support and/or return shipping. I tried to discuss this on Knots a while back, but the results were disastrous (both with Knots and Grizzly) and the discussion was deleted by Taunton.
Edited 4/12/2006 3:57 pm ET by BanyanTree
Banyan Tree,
I am sorry to hear your experiences with Grizzly were so disappointing. I was stating that I was pleased with PSI with my first order. I read a lot about Grizzly and some good and some bad. I have ordered and shopped in person with Grizzly. I personally have had no problems. But obviously others have had problems.
Why, who, when, where is not as important as a company trying to keep, as many as reasonably possible, customers happy.
As far as a discussion being deleted, could it be due to posts that became belligerent, nasty, and personal? Sometimes, participants forget we are here to pass information -- not to attack those who post their experiences, ask questions that have been answered hundreds of times, or are newbies seeking help! We all started knowing nothing with no skills are knowledge!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
81treehouse,
Yeah, I agree with you on all this. And yes, that previous Grizzly discussion was certainly deleted because it got nasty and personal. In the end, it was better off being deleted, but it was unfortunate, since the original point was valid. But it got buried under an avalanche of irrelevant nastiness.That previous discussion and the one you have raised here have some things in common. In my case, the Grizzly machine suffered from numerous defects (not the shipper's fault), and the problem was compounded greatly by Grizzly's shipping policies regarding defective machines.
Edited 4/14/2006 8:01 pm ET by BanyanTree
81treehouse,
My Grizzly jointer arrived in a shattered crate.. I could have refused shipment but I called Grizzly. I could see several broken bits and thought all was lost..
However I was pressed for time. I had a home to build..
They asked me what were the broken parts and did I think I could replace them myself..
Well basically the fence was history and the guard broken so I asked and they said sure.
The next day all the parts needed were in my hands (overnight air frieght) and I replaced them.. in about 30 minutes..
I ran a test piece across the beds and everything was just fine.. Nervous I asked the girl on the phone and she said they would stand behind anything while extending the warrantee..
What a joke, years later, well over 20,000 bd ft. of hardwood later, nothing has failed. perfection.. the only maintince has been to replace the blades when they get dull..
In fact of the 7 major pieces of shop equipment I've purchased from Grizzly I have to date spent $5.00 for one drive belt at the local auto parts store.. 20,000 bd.ft. through the jointer, 30,000+ thru the planer all hardwood! and in the past 4 plus years I've spent $5.00
Frenchy,
As I have previously posted tonight, I am very happy that you and others have had a great experience with Grizzly. So have I. But many have not. I have had a good experience "so far" with PSI on my first order from them. Also good customer service with Delta, Porter-Cable, Mikita, and others. Many customers have not had good experiences with these companies.
My point is a company should try to make all customers happy within reason. It is good business for them and good for us. A happy customer is worth at least 10 new customers. An unhappy customer might cost many more than 10!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
After being in retail for at least 30 years, I always heard that a happy customer would tell 3 people about it and an unhappy one would tell 10. Now that we have the internet, that number has probably increased exponentially but the unhappy customer will still do more damage than the good done by a happy one.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks for the post. I had freight damage problems with this dynamic duo on a jointer last year. I had decided to try again with a Grizzly band saw. I asked for a different shipper, but the answer was “not available”. Thankfully it was on back order and after reading your post I decided to cancel the order. I am retired, but life is too short to put up with delivery issues again for a few bucks. It may even cost more than a few, but at least my blood presure won't have to be off the chart.
hainesortwoodworker,
The trouble isn't Grizzly, it's trucking companies.. Do like I do.. pick it up at the dock.. They will set it into your truck and when ever you want to show up, about the same as if you went to your local tool store to buy something.
As for renting a forklift for the day, Gimme a break!
buy one!
You've already found a use for one trust me you'll find about another million uses in the future.. I've sold old solid old cushion tire forklifts for a few hundred dollars. Sure they are rusty and may need a little tune up or something but the uses are great!
Frenchy - actually, I've been looking for one of these couple hundred dollar forklifts for about 6 months but no luck yet. In addition to you, about three other people have told me about these creatures, the trouble is no one can produce one. I have the money if you hear of one in the nj area give me a shout.
Hainsportwoodworker,
It's like finding $20.00 bills lying on the ground, you simply need to know where to look..
(I sell forklifts for a living, so I know what I'm speaking about)
If I wanted to find $20.00 bills I go to where $20.00 bills are considered a small denomination..
For example, Look underneath the outside decks of resturants on the beach, I used to find a lot of money when I was a kid that way...
Now as to a cheap forklift,
Three places. If you are mechanically skilled, go to a new forklift dealer, in the back yard someplace he may have a tired old dog or two sitting around that isn't worth much wholesale but will fit your needs nicely. (tell him you want it for parts) second drive around the back ally's of warehouse districts. keep a sharp eye out..
Third, frequent bankruptcy auctions...
That sounds like a local delivery problem .
You should not blame Grizzly.
I'll tell you a story that was Grizzly's problem. My Father years ago ordered a table saw and the top was warped and cracked. Called the company about the trouble and all I know about it , it took almost 6 month to get a replacement. If it would have been me , I would have sent the whole saw back, later he had problems with the bolts on the fence coming loose, plus the fence was never true to the saw blade. He now has a Jet saw table. I'm a Pro furniture builder and only have a dust collector of Grizzly's, I don't buy any Grizzly equipment because of the problems Father had with the stuff from them.
Your reply isn't very good either as many of these companies including Grizzly have improved their Quality Assurance inspections & machine design over the years & don't usually have the same problems that they had in years gone by.Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Sheez Hains, don't stress so much, you'll shorten your life by several years!
My Grizz 8" jointer came by Fedex Freight, and was offloaded by the driver into my garage at no extra cost. I wasn't even at home, my 16 year old daughter signed for the delivery.
I assembled it faultlessly a few days later.
Good luck with your Delta, they use to be famous a long time ago.
My Grizzly 6" jointer was delivered today by Saia freight. I paid the $30 lift gate fee, and the driver unloaded the two boxes, wheeled them into the garage and unloaded them there. The whole experience could not have been more pleasant. I am going to begin the assemble process tomorrow evening after work.
Do you feel like its Christmas? Let us know how the 6" peforms and any issues you find. Have fun and enjoy.
With regard to the "do I feel like it's Christmas" comment, my wife just rolls her eyes when I talk about a new tool! Yes, it does feel like Christmas, only hotter and more humid! I'll let you know how the machine and it's operator perform when it's running. Tom
What did you get, an 1182? I had the 1182ZHW, it was excellent and smooth-running. Made flat boards. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I bought the G0452, a new 6" model that Grizzly has. Rack and pinion fence and a built in mobile base. Based on the FWW reviews of Grizzly jointers and the features, I figured this would be a good machine. I'll post back after I get it up and running. Tom
Delivery issues aside what about quality. I have been researching 10 inch tablesaws and on paper the Grizzly saws, especially the cabinet saws, blow the competition away. Having never used a Grizzly saw but the 3hp cabinet saw with an extra large cast iron wing capable of holding a router seems like a great deal and is priced lower than some 1.5hp contractor saws.
RJTravis,
Can a company really "blow the competition away" "on paper"?
Edited 4/12/2006 5:41 pm ET by BanyanTree
Can a company really "blow the competition away" "on paper"? ************************Yeah, they can, with competent design.That's the first thing you look at, unless you're price shopping and it doesn't matter to you.Leon
You can make comparisons on paper, but what's on paper is often not representative of the real experience someone will have with a company. For one thing, the way companies rate their products (for example, horse power) often is not accurately comparable on paper. For another, the more immeasurable things like customer service, shipping policies, longevity, and elegance in use don't show up on paper.I create little spreadsheets all the time when considering a new machine. This allows me to compare basic stats. But I always know that there are very important factors to consider that can't be shown on the spreadsheet. My Grizzly experience was a good lesson, and I'm glad the mistake I made with Grizzly was a relatively small one.
As much as I like Grizzly cabinet saws, your argument is incredibly weak and will most likely bring down on you a landslide of derision. The reason I would consider a Grizzly saw were I in the market is because people who use them have good things to report, not because they look good "on paper." Same with their 8" jointers and larger band saws.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
RJTRAVIS
I bought the 12 inch table saw from Grizzly, two reasons well actually three first bigger is better, second I already had several 12 inch blades for my compound miter saw, third I have all of these 4"x4" black walnut beams and needed to rip some of them.
First the bad news..
It broke my arm!
Well I removed the anti kick back and safety because I'd just done some dado work.. I had a little ripping to do and didn't bother..
I suspect that any brand of table saw would have done exactly the same thing under the same circumstances..
Now the good news.. I love it!
Oh I don't care about installing a router lift table in mine, I bought a 3 hp Grizzly shaper and use the proper tool! You should see me single pass these raised panels and leave such a nice finished surface I don't bother to sand..
<< It broke my arm!>> <<I suspect that any brand of table saw would have done exactly the same thing under the same circumstances.>>
WRONG!!!
I have an unused in 10 years underpowered single belt driven Craftsman table saw. It would have ripped about .001 inches of a 4x4 black walnut log, stalled, and tripped a circuit breaker! (ROFL)
Sorry about the arm!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
The anti Grizzly crowd here keeps stating that 'many' customers are unhappy with Grizzly. REALLY? Define 'many', couple of dozen people perhaps? Fifty? I've only seen a handful in various posts on this forum and others. They tend to be the same people. I've been waiting for a Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw to come in for four months now. I don't think they are short of customers given their backlog, so they must be doing something right. Of course some would say all these Grizzly customers just don't know what a 'good' tool is, are cheap..poor..., etc. etc.. Whatever you want to believe, that's your privilage. Being a business man myself, I know that at times you can have 'customers' that are far more trouble than they're worth. They can go to my competitors with my blessings. Some people won't 'get' this, believing that anyone with money to spend should be accomodated no matter how they behave. I'm not implying that anyone on this thread fits that description, but it's the truth in business...I have other major brand tools in my shop. Each of those tool purchases were the best value at that time. As for my cabinet saw, I'm happy to wait for it, as to buy a comperable tool of that type would add 30-50% to my cost. That money is better spent other places. THATS THE REALITY.
Cheers.
Jeff
Jeff,
Well stated. But there are also anti-Delta, anti-Jet, anti-General, anti-_________. Fill in the blank.
And you are also correct that sometimes, it is best to send your worst customer to your best competitor! :-)
I learn from listening to both the posters who brag or complain.
I suspect you have also learned who to listen to and who to ignore.
Regards,
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Does this mean that you disagree with "The customer is always right"? I disagree and said that to more than one customer with the explanation that not all requests/demands/complaints from customers are reasonable. Sucking up to unreasonable people becomes a bad pattern and once people hear about that, it goes bad in a hurry.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
81treehouse,
I wonder how many of those who complain about Grizzly do so not because they own a Grizzly but instead work for or sell another brand..
If I were a Delta dealer and compared my prices against Grizzly I'd want to bad mouth the competition as much as possible.
How do we know the bonafides of those who post here?
Others have visited me and know that I sell forklifts and am using the Grizzly's I've purchased to build my timberframe.
It would be interesting to have the same done to the complainers..
All,
I have not had the chance to read knots for about a week. And this thread is still going.
Beware; the 100th post will accivate the Tauton delete of the whole thread. (hopefully) what's the saying about a dead horse?
ha ha ha,
....and then there's the people who bought one 10, 15 or even 25 years ago (one tool) and base their whole opinion on that one experience. Doesn't matter to them how many people (like you, yourself) have put their Grizzly jointers or cabinet saws through heavy-use paces and have as good results as one could hope for.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You wrote this:
"I wonder how many of those who complain about Grizzly do so not because they own a Grizzly but instead work for or sell another brand."I believe most criticism posted here on Knots, about Grizzly or any other brand, is largely based on honest experiences.However, if there is any brand-loyalty criticism going on here, it is not limited to Grizzly!
Haines-I'm going to jump in probably a little late, but I have to sympathize w/ you. I disagree strongly w/ those absolving Grizzly from this because it was "carrier error." NO, Grizzly owns the customer relationship from the time the order is placed through the delivery. Grizzly's in the mail order business. That's how they choose to service their customers. As a customer, you shouldn't have to care or guess who's responsible at what point in the transaction. Grizzly needs to ensure that the carrier they choose provides the necessary service.
I work in a rather large food company. Wal Mart would laugh at me if product delivered late and I replied to them, "take it up w/ the carrier." No, rest assured...that response would not be allowed and my butt would be in a sling. I know you aren't Wal Mart but the principle is the same.
Edited 4/14/2006 12:52 am ET by woodk2
The difference between the wal-mart model and the overnite model (shipping) is that they use "committed" trailers. Weather its a remote manufacturing facility shipping seats per/schedule to an auto assembly plant in trucks or a stamping plant producing sheet metal components for the same plant shipping in committed rail cars. From the point of shipping, point of delivery and return for the next load it is a circut of control. The grizzly model is based on common carrier to depot and then local delivery. The lode on common carriers is freight. At the depot its freight, to the dispatcher its freight...When grizzly ships anywhere for a quoted amount its freight. Part of the success of the grizzly model is that the freight is upfront, reasonable, delivery is assured. The delivery from the depot has to do with size of crate, weight, quantity of freight , route . Overnite delivers freight and distributes it in an efficient manner. If your purchase is not on the truck today its not personal...its not grizzly's fault, its just freight being handled by a common carrier. Should you object to this concept you should ask at the time of purchase for other shipping options. We have all shared this heightened state of anticipation when our jointer is in route...and weve all been disapointed a time or two with delivery...but when i purchased my band saw i still paid for shipping by common freight. If our woodworking equipment sits at the depot for an extended time period then we have concern...I would contact the dispatcher at the terminal of the common carrier. [email protected]
With numerous threads like this one here and on other woodworking forums, one must wonder why Grizzly continues to put up with the apparently lousy service their customers get from Overnight. I like to buy big tools locally. I have purchased on-line lots of times and have never had anything close to the miserable experiences people report with Grizzly/Overnight. Makes me wonder why a person would make the decision to buy from Grizzly when there are so many other good decisions to be made??? BTW, Papa Grizzly posts at Woodnet, if you want to speak to the man himself.
Daviddubya - Cave Creek, AZ
davidubbya,
I started out buying Delta from a local dealer, er woodcrafters.
My experiances with them were so terrible that I used to post rants all of the time about them..
Buying locally doesn't ensure anything!
Almost all equipment made is made in Taiwan nowdays and while the quality varies a bit it's really a matter of luck of the draw.. not what color paint is one a piece of equipment..
I buy Grizzly because I find I get a decent piece of equipment there cheaper than I can buy another brand elsewhere..
Heck, I have no more loyalty to Grizzly than that!
I would like to see an independant survey of all Grizzly customers who have received their goods via Overnight. That would, and probably does, explain why Grizzly still uses them, expecially when you compare the numbers and comments about the other shippers used in the past. CF may have been the best one they had used (not saying they were) but by going belly up, that relationship ended.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Makes me wonder why a person would make the decision to buy from Grizzly when there are so many other good decisions to be made???"
What we see on the internet is hardly a scientific sample
The problem may be geographically isolated, concentrated or spotty across the country
No way to tell what percentage of people have had these bad experiences
How many people who order a large tool and have it delivered with no problem jump onto a WWing forum and let everyone know about their "great shipping experience?" Probably very few.
If I were on the receiving end of one of these shipping fiascos (fiascoes?) I'd be royally PO'd, don't get me wrong. But just because we see 100-post threads about it on Knots doesn't mean it's a common occurence.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What we see on the internet is hardly a scientific sample
The problem may be geographically isolated, concentrated or spotty across the country
No way to tell what percentage of people have had these bad experiences
First point, true. Beyond the original poster, the remained of the thread seems to be Grizzly Supporters and Grizzly Haters... Not scientific at all.
Second point. You've brought this up numerous time throughout this thread. This isn't a very good defense of Grizzly. In fact this seems to highlight one of their main problems. Inconsistency. If you are correct and there is a geographical trend to problems, Grizzly should be able to head the problem off. At least Grizzly should br aware of the problem, and have adequate customer service to deal with it.
Third Point. I don't understand how knowing what percentage of people have had bad experiences would help. If I were to make a guess about the percentage it would be very low, probably in the 1-5% range. If I said less than 5% you'd think "That's not very many". But what if another company had less than 1%, 5% would be a significant number then.
As a side note: Why do there threads get to 100+ posts? As another poster pointed out, there are always going to be people who hate '_____' (fill in the blank with Delta, General... etc). These companies will always have their supporters as well. These threads have as much to do about ego as anything. A previous poster suggested that there are salespeople here that pump or bash the brands, I find that laughable. It's just human nature, it's vanity. Why else would we stick up for a machine with such passion?
Buster
For whatever reason, Grizzly does bring out passions more than other brands.Actually, I think most people do post a balance of positive and negative comments. However, negative experiences are more often the inspiration for a discussion, while positive experiences come up more often in resoponse to someone else's questions. At least that's how it tends to play out on these boards.But yes, people ought to post positive as well as negative experiences with tools. Both are vital. And as long as the comments are based on actual experiences, people should feel free to do this.
For whatever reason, Grizzly does bring out passions more than other brands.
I have my theories... Thinking back I see very few complaints regarding Grizzly products. Most people seem to be getting the appropriate value out of them. But when people have problems, boy do they have problems!
People like getting good value. It makes us feel good. That's what Grizzly is good at, getting us a good value tool.
Grizzly is in a unique position, compared to the other tool companies. They are the maker, advertiser, and seller of their brand. Any problem that goes wrong from deign to delivery is on their shoulders.
The big difference is that Grizzly is responsible for it's own customer service. Everybody else is available retail in most cities. We rarely blame Rigid for Home Depots poor customer service. Grizzly willingly takes this role on, so we can not absolve them of any problem that may occur.
Further Grizzly uses freight, which is foreign to most of it's customers. It's not a simple as mail. It appears Grizzly does not adequately prepare/educate it's customers for the problems that may occur. Again this is Grizzly choice, it's their business model and they alone are responsible.
Just my 2 cents.
Buster
Buster2000
Why advocate any one brand over another?
Heck as a loyal supporter of Grizzly products I often wonder that myself.. I bought Grizzly because it was cheap..
It would do the job and was cheap..
Now cheapness isn't something that tends to bring out a lot of loyalty. But when the product is better than your expectations there is a tendancy to step back and reappraise.
Why advocate any one brand over another?
Some brands do stand head and shoulders above the others. Take my favorite brand... (Just Kidding). But it is true, certain brands are known for quality and customer service. A hand tool example would be Lee Valley / Veritas or Lie Neilsen. These tools consistently rate on top. (Both brands have equal fanatics).
When we get into the world of mid-range power tools it get's a little hazy. People seem unlikely to own more than one type of table saw at a time, and those that have had multiple table saw through there wood working career tend to be upgrading. Of course your newer saw is better than your older saw. But is it fair to compare your first saw, a craftsman benchtop to that new Unisaw?
I don't want to come off as a Grizzly basher. I really do resprect the brand. You are correct, cheapness isn't something that brings loyalty. But value does, and these machines are a good value no doubt.
But to take the loyalty to a new level when a comany is seen as perfect, is an odd type of fanatisism (Is that a word?). How else could these threads get so long?
Buster
Buster2000
I understand what you are saying regarding brand loyalty..
John Deere tractors - no Allis Chalmers, etc..
Ford, no Chevy!
Yellow, red!
Some of it may actually be based on reality and not simply opinion..
Some may be driven by more commercial reasons..
A 100 posts long isn't all that long, go over to breaktime and there are posts well in excess of a thousand.. it really depends on your size. Must be a lot more carpenters than cabinet makers <G>
one must wonder why Grizzly continues to put up with the apparently lousy service their customers get from Overnight.
For an answer to that, one only has to look at the numerous "I really liked the Yorkcraft, until I saw the shipping charges and I said No WAY" postings.
I can't understand about people crying about shipping. You are paying for shipping some where in the price of you purchase. Some carriers are better than others. Some carriers show the real shipping cost, some don't. Been in the business for 35yrs. Been there, done that.
JJBX
PS Buy the UPS [BROWN TRUCKS] has bought Overnite & I don't think they will stand for the damage claims too much. That's one company that runs a tight ship. Nuff said.
Edited 4/22/2006 5:52 am ET by JJB
If you're proposing that all shipping charges are basically the same I'll disagree. A company that sells and ships, say 1,000 jointers is at a disadvantage in negotiating compared to a company that sells 10,000 jointers. I'm pretty sure that Grizzly is able to negotiate much better shipping prices because of their volume and their 3 warehouses. Seriously doubt that there is a Yorkcraft-sized shipping charge hidden somewhere in the comparable Grizzly jointer price.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
When you buy 1o,ooo of one thing you get a preety good price break that Yorkcraft shipping price very well could be part of the price. Just saying there iass no free lunches. These truck burn the same amount of fuel as the next company does. Some thing suffers some where. Be it service, quality of product. These companies will come into a customer & lowball the freight rate for awhile just to get the business, then raise the rate later. They loose money in one area just to cut the other company out. Transportion business is a dog eat dog business.
The way fuel prices are going you're going to see freight rates sky rocket along with everything else.
Take care JJBX
Shippers don't have much choice in who they ship by.
Different firms have different routes and service areas established by the ICC. Some carriers may not be authorized to carry that type of freight. Rates for shipping are established by ICC also, so if you don't like them, you're going to have to write to your congresscritter. Good luck.
I'd have billed Overnight for the rental of the lift and an extra day's time and filed a complaint with the ICC.
I can sympathize with anyone that has had trouble with deliveries from Grizzly through Consolidated Freight or Overnight.
All of my deliveries from Grizzly have been on time & the boxes & equipment has been in perfect shape & no missing parts & arrived when I was there with the shop door open. All delivered from the Grizzly Headquarters store in Bellingham Washington via OB freight in the back of my vehicle. Worked for all 5 of my tools every-time noooo problems.
Similar problem, too lengthy to relate, with another Grizzly shipper, SAIA.
Grizzly couldn't have been more accomodating and courteous, but the shipper was maddeningly inept.
SAIA finally admitted after three days they could not locate the shipment.. even though their computer showed it in their warehouse. Grizzly reshipped and I got the order two days later.
How do you misplace a 2'x8' laminated benchtop?
"How do you misplace a 2'x8' laminated benchtop?" Probably by hiding it in a driver's workshop, ROFL. Back in the early/mid '90's, I had a case of very important trading cards go missing in shipping. The kind that have their wholesale price skyrocket the minute they're released. Funny that as soon as they found out it was insured, the package showed up.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Holy crap, sounds like Pokemon cards. ;-)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Sorta close, but really no cigar. "Magic the Gathering" back in the days of the Legends set. Payed several hundred dollars for one box I bought, and the packs just flew out the door. Ahhhhhhhh, those were the days.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Pokemon was big when my kids were little. I remember driving all over Redmond, into Bellevue, and into Kirkland, just chasing those darned little packs.
Glad they didn't get into "Magic the Gathering" too!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
[warning: hijack ahead] "Glad they didn't get into "Magic the Gathering" too!" If they were "little" when Pokemon was hot, they weren't even born yet when MTG hit the world. MTG was the first CCG (collectible trading card game) from whence all others spun (Pokemon, YuGiOh, Star Wars, etc.) The creator hails from Seattle (Richard Garfield). I'm not smart enough to play, but it has universal appeal for people who are, all ages, all backgrounds. Will be around long after I'm scattered to the winds. No other game comes close to it. I've been selling it for 11 years now, and it still outsells everything else on a yearly basis.
My guess is, your kids collected Pokemon, but didn't really play the game much. Hence the lack of interested in MTG, which is really very much a players' game. Few people collect but don't play. I run tournaments 2x/mo. Players from 11 yrs. to 40 yrs. Serious folks, some of 'em, too!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think you may be correct. When I posed the same question to the freight forwarder at SAIA she said, "Oh, it happens all the time."
Sir,
Can you please tell me what you do (that I can also do) that will earn me $500 per day (that is legal, of course).
v/r,
Shaun
Shaun - as stated earlier in this thread, $500 is a pre-overhead wage - what I bill myself out for as a professional woodworker - the amount left over after rent, utilities, insurance....etc is a lesser amount. So much lesser infact that I've raised my rates recently so that they work out to around $750 a day now. Fuel and utility costs have increased, plus I have two college tuitions coming up and my 28' sailboat is feeling small lately. ON A SERIOUS NOTE - When I first posted this thread it was to complain about second problem with a Grizzly purchase and to state that I wasn't going to make a third mistake. Now 120 messages later its turned into an us vs. them thing. Two things I'd like to point out - I never was a real Grizzly hater, in fact, I was a big fan, and to some extent I still am - I have several of their machines in my shop - two from the earlier delivery screw up and one I picked up at their warehouse - I like them all to some extent and the price was right - my 15" planer motor overheats after about an hour of continuous use. It takes about an hour to cool down to the point that the motor will start again. For a pro shop this is an inconvience but I live with it because the machine cost me half of the Delta identical version. My 3hp Grizzly shaper has been making bearing noises after maybe only 10hrs of use and Ill be taking this up with the company in the near future. Regardless, I'm not going to purchase any Grizzly machines, not because I don't like them, but because they've screwed me with the shipping twice. I WAS ATTACKED - Something I didn't expect when I posted was that I was pretty much attacked universally from two groups - the first being fanatical Grizzlians that blamed me or the shipper for my problems - "you should have got a lift gate" " you should take it up with Overnight" The second was from the elitist faction that blamed my problems on the fact that I bought a Grizzly Tool in the first place. To me what the whole thing boiled down to was about service - when I tell a customer I'm going to do something I do it. If Grizzly can't handle shipping their tools, then have the customers arrange shipping, or go with someone else.
Unfortunately, here on Knots, if you raise a complaint about Grizzly, you are blamed for the problem and roundly attacked by Grizzly supporters, and your whole discussion is often deleted.This board seems to have an unusually high number of Grizzly fans, which is fine. What I don't understand is their desire to attack someone who was attempting to be an honest customer.
$750 a day? Wow! That is pitiful. No wonder you were buying Grizzly. <grin>
If I could not make at least a couple thousand a day, I would quit. How on earth can one survive on such a measly amount. After all, the ex CEO of Mobil-Exxon just retired and only got $400,000,000 as a retirement package! Yes, I did retire since I was not getting a couple thousand a day. <grin> And my retirement package was also a little less!
Seriously, what people make is their own businesss! More if you can, less if you must! And as far as Grizzly or any retailer goes, say your piece, and forget all the follow-on bickering. Some will agree and some won't. Some always think they would do better at handling an issue. Afterall, this is a "forum" for woodworking and not a personal attack site. At least, I think so.
Now, about the lousy service I got from ...
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I dont believe they were necessarly attacks but the awareness of the process of personalization of misfortune, the assigning of intense significance and the choice of focus for their frustration. Its very difficult to be objective when aggitated. Often times replys do not reflect the perceived intensity of the original post so further explanation is necessary. Differing opinions and the rekindling of emotions of similar shared experiences and we're off and running. This concept of "customer service" really needs to be defined and understood. Even when the " policies" of companies is stated on their web sites...it seems to be the parameters from which comparisons are made. The policies of all companies differ and even though they are available after an incident for review they did exist previously for the same review. I'm not taking a pro Grizzly position. In the early 9o's my aging parents downsized homes/acerage and purchased a new riding lawnmower from sears. On the second mowing of their one acre yard the stamped sheetmetal spotwelded sheave for the mower deck suffered spotweld failure and separated. Appeared to be a maintence problem with the spotwelding process of the componet supplier. My parents were consumed with the idea that sears had such lousy quality and they were just not going to accept it. I loaded the mower in my truck and they returned it for a refund. They proceeded to the local Western Auto Assoc store where they purchased an almost identical clone. My son still uses it. Had the pulley been replaced by sears it would probably be in his garage instead. They never forgave sears and any mower my dad had did not compare to his old gravely. Servicing customers is a tough business. Do you write it tight and make exceptions as to the rationality of the customer??? Do you think that refunded purchase price is customer service???or the failure of customer service???How do you deal with people that have the perception of justification for their actions when the issue is not a right or wrong. How about some insight from you vendors that offer customer service to the ones that perceive slights and injustice (the realization that their mental image does not match the agreement/results) as your responsibility... What is Customer service?????
Hey boys and girls:
Can't we put a fork in this thread and call it done!
The horse (grizzly?)is so beat-up there is nothing left.
Regards, Henry.
To quote your very own self from #90 above:
"And yes, that previous Grizzly discussion was certainly deleted because it got nasty and personal."
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
I don't get why you're half-quoting me here, unless you're trying to support my point, which I doubt.Here's the full quote:
"...that previous Grizzly discussion was certainly deleted because it got nasty and personal. In the end, it was better off being deleted, but it was unfortunate, since the original point was valid. But it got buried under an avalanche of irrelevant nastiness."That's my point. If someone criticizes Grizzly here on Knots, no matter how valid the original comments, the messenger is trashed and the discussion veers off topic. At that point, the whole meaning is lost and the discussion becomes useless.I would rather that criticism of Grizzly did not always lead to trashing the messenger and necessitating the removal of the discussion.But again, I don't really understand what you were getting at by half-quoting me.
I'm simply pointing out inconsistency. In one post you state:
"Unfortunately, here on Knots, if you raise a complaint about Grizzly, you are blamed for the problem and roundly attacked by Grizzly supporters, and your whole discussion is often deleted."
Yet in a previous post you stated:
"And yes, that previous Grizzly discussion was certainly deleted because it got nasty and personal."
Focus, BT, focus. The thread was not deleted because it was about Grizzly, bad or good. It was deleted, as you state, because "it got nasty and personal."
All of the other points you make may or may not be valid. I'm not even entertaining a discussion about them. Just pointing out the inconsistencies between your two statements. IMHO, the earlier post was quite on target. The most recent statement was bogus. There are probably dozens of critical posts about Grizzly that live on here at Knots. Of course, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "often" but IMHO, 2 out of probably dozens doesn't qualify.
OK, my anticipation is that you might try and make a huge, big deal and discussion about this. If it doesn't focus on the narrow point I'm trying to make, don't expect me to reply. Flailing-about discussions bore me silly.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,Don't feed the trolls.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Awwwww, darn, you're spoiling my fun. Sorry, G., this was so crystal clear to me I just couldn't keep my fingers off the keyboard.
How ya doin, dude? Have a good weekend? Let's hijack this thread! ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I completely agree. If you like/dislike a tool and or a companys service, state your reasons why and be done with it. This is one of the reasons I left selling tools. NOTHING STAYS THE SAME !! An experience you had a year or even a few months ago may not accurately reflect the current state of affairs. Refusing to buy from a particular company because of a past slight means nothing. Companys change hands, good/bad people leave. Manufacturing sites change. CEO's take their golden parachutes and haul ####.A suppliers rep may change and along with it the quality of customer service and the trust that must accompany same, all independent of the manufactuer. Tilt at windmills all you want, this is reality. Lets use this forum to explore what is good or bad now for purchases made in the next month. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH !! If You expect free shipping a lifetime guarantee and unlimited handholding for the lowest price and the highest quality tool you are a fool !!! Buy from someone you trust, do your homework, realize that in todays WalMart world low price is everything, knowledge and skill aren't worth squat in the retail world Pay your retailer fairly for his knowledge, and hope like hell his employer recognizes his knowledge and he is'nt dragged down on the averages of store income by people who can't read don't give a rat's #### about tool or quality and spend all their time playing with radio control toys.... Things are relatively simple, keep it that way. If you bought the wrong tool on someone elses advice, suck it up take responsibility, sell the goddamn thing to someone else [tell them the truth ]and buy something else... Whew... don't think it will help but still glad to get it off my chest.For you people buying table saws or other items in the 2k range bear in mind your retailer might be getting $200.00 per sale if he's doing well. How much truth telling and #### kissing do you figure a sale like that is worth considering he had to buy 10k to get that margin and then assemble and clean up one for display, listen to your whining that you could cheat your state on sales tax by purchasing on the internet and watch your unruly kids trash his displays? Yes I know you don't all bring unruly kids to the store, just trying to give you a SMALL idea of what you local retailer has to deal with....
"How much truth telling and #### kissing do you figure a sale like that is worth considering he had to buy 10k to get that margin and then assemble and clean up one for display, listen to your whining that you could cheat your state on sales tax by purchasing on the internet...."
Well said!!! People who have never been in retail (I am, but not WWing) have no idea have rough it is, most especially with the internet in the picture now.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
dggreen,Your experiences in retail give you an interesting perspective on this. I'm sure there are frustrations in that line of work, just as there are frustrations in everyone's work. I have to deal with a thousand excuses from my students every week!
But people should feel free to use a forum like this to voice their complaints.
You mention that we should focus on what is valid right now or in the near future (I'm paraphrasing). From what I can gather, this discussion is about just that. The comments about Grizzly's shipping policies and customer service have to do with an order that was placed very recently and how it was handled, and the issues could affect someone placing an order today.
As far as "moving on" is concerned, I think the purpose of a forum like this is to discuss tools, and raise points that might be of concern to other customers in a similar situation. If you feel the discussion has veered off into territory that is boring, irrelevant, or annoying, you should ignore the discussion. But others should feel free to continue debating it.
Edited 4/25/2006 1:40 pm ET by BanyanTree
Forestgirl,In one sentence, I described the unfortunate attacks that take place in Grizzly-related discussions and how the discussions often get deleted (let's not debate the meaning of the word "often"). In another sentence, I said that the Grizzly discussion I had started turned nasty and was therefore better off being deleted.
I don't see any inconsistency here.
Unfrtunately, a useful discussion can turn nasty, for a variety of personal, political, or other reasons. When that happens, I have to agree that the moderators may have to delete it. Looking back, I do agree that my Grizzly-related discussion was better off deleted. But it's sad that this happens to discussions that start out with valid arguments.
I don't know what you mean by "flailing-about discussions." You raised this question about my inconsistency, so I'm responding directly.
I wonder what the record is for most posts in a thread? Oops, I just added another one, dang it!! It amazes me the passion this has?
Snicker!! Snort!! Chuckle!! Especially liked 4 and 6, I think you forgot the horsewhipping and the lawsuit !
Robert1,
Well, obviously, the term "valid" is open for debate! In my opinion, the opening statements were valid. This is a concern of many Grizzly customers, as well as potential customers of this company.
Even if we feel that the original statements are not valid, there are ways to express our disagreements without insulting people. And I think it's rather childish to simply try to veer a discussion off topic.
Banyan Tree,
Thansk for the post and your opinions most of us appreciate them and will pay attention to them before ordering from grizzly.
Robet1,
I wasn't accusing you of throwing the discussion off topic. You didn't come in until late in the game on this one! I was making a general reference to this practice.
I don't understand why you highlighted the word "we" in my message and then made reference to an "encounter group on Yahoo." What are you referring to?
Insults can work the magic you are referring to, but I find the advantages to be short-lived!
Edited 4/25/2006 10:35 pm ET by BanyanTree
Enough! Ignore is ineffective when others insist on feeding the troll. :)
John_D,
What is your problem? My messages here are on-topic.
Edited 4/26/2006 10:30 am ET by BanyanTree
robert1,
My statement had nothing to do with a "Festool Encounter Group." I still don't know what you mean by "encounter group." Perhaps you are referring to the "Festool Owners Group," an Internet forum like Knots.
When I said "we," I was referring to those of us here on Knots.
robert1,
I'll try and take the high road here, as you seem to be doing all you can to provoke a fight.
No, I don't understand. The tract you just posted bears no resemblance to anything I am involved with. Or if it does, then we are all in the same boat, since every forum on the Internet, including Knots, could be construed the same way.
Hi Matthew (before you reply) and Robert,
Is it possible to take this one off-line and have a private email conversation between the two of you??
It's starting to get that familiar look to it.
Cheers,
eddie
I would calm down and go have a molsen. It sounds like to me that its the shipping company who has the problem. I wouldnt blame the Grizz! Being that I do alot of shipping more then you would think. I would ask for Grizz to use a shipper that you are familiar with.
Better yet have Grizzly leave it in will call on their loading dock and contract with the trucking company yourself. Bearing in mind there's no free lunch, you lose the economies of scale. May cost more but you get to pick the shipper and will have a contractual agreement if they fail to perform. May be tough to find a shipper willing to contract to your specifications though.P.S. Like the Molsen idea! Make it a Guiness extra stout and I'm all over it...
Edited 4/26/2006 8:51 pm ET by dgreen
I did ask Grizzly to use another shipper and they refused - read my original post - it will tell you that this was the second time I had this problem. And, as I have said before - it is indeed Grizzly's problem - the shipper is their subcontractor. If we use a subcontractor for finishing, which we do sometimes, and the cabinets start peeling in a month - do I just tell the customer - oh, I just made the cabinets, that's the finishers problem - no way - they paid me for everything so its my problem. If I arranged for shipping from Grizzly and paid the shipper directly - which I had asked to do and they refused - then the shipper would be my problem. I'm starting to get the feeling this board is saturated with Grizzly stooges. You are all starting to sound like the redneck that comments on a wife beating - oh, she was asking for it. It's typical of our society in general in the past 15 years - no one whats to take responsibility for anything - its always someone elses fault. PS - Email an let me know how I can make a second income as a Grizzly internet fluffer.Oh, an the dude chill and have a beer thing got pretty old after college
PSSS -- If a moderator is reading this - please, as the original poster of this thread end it already - you have my blessing -
Why did you expect the Wally World of tools to do your job for you and line up another shipper. They have already contracted with a shipper that obviously satisfies the great majority of their customers. If you thought it was going to be a problem again YOU should have contracted with a shipper to pick it up at Grizzlys will call dock. It is not reasonable to expect a high volume low margin business to look up another shipper, fax the paperwork P.O. credit and payment info etc.for you. If you did'nt like their shipper it was your responsibility to arrange something else. It's how they keep their prices and shipping low cost which is what the vast majority of their customers want. For the record I don't own any of their tools. As to the beer I'd say don't bother, might just as well throw yourself off the cliff now, this experience has obviously made your life not worth living and ruined you financially. Why set yourself up for further failure.
Dear All,
I suggest we draw a poll to get a consensus to end this topic . I think it is getting drifted away out track. It never comes across my mind if "shipping" is a somewhat woodworking tool that justified an elaborate debate.
Masrol
Agree. I did see a shipping plane once though. I decided it would never fit in my shop and those four engines looked awfully thirsty. Think it was a Stanley 747.
Hi dgreen,
Book business class tickets for two. Preferably the chartered flight passing through Bermuda Triangle. Bring along your hand-plane. See if we are able flattening a wide board on board using Stained #747.
Masrol
Have heard that the sides of the Bermuda triangle were not truly equilateral. We should probably wait until Lie Nielsen or Bridge City Tools comes out with an improved version. Would hate to make that long a trip without an accurate triangle to check our work....
It's about your bed time, isn't it? Have enough sleep & beautiful dream. Wake up early in the morning and you are fresh to start planning to plane. Otherwise, you may miss the flight to the new journey of your life.
.
Usually up till at least 2am. Have a computer in the shop so it does'nt interfere with work too much!!
Your computer must be in a separate room, I supposed. Or else, it may collect dust.!!
Collects dust like crazy!! get's blown out daily. Pain in the rear but woth it to have plans, parts breakdowns etc. so handy.
Ok dgreen. I'm going out for lunch. It is 12:56PM - my local time.
All the best. May God bless you & family.
Now you are seeing precisely what I stated a little while back. This discussion is following the usual trajectory for all Grizzly discussions on Knots that are at all critical of the company.I think you're right. There is a cluster of Grizzly stooges in this forum with a knee-jerk need to reject outright the slightest criticism of the company. And if they can't find any faults with your actual arguments, they come up with irrelevant personal insults, go out of their way to avoid responding to anything you actually said, and attempt to derail the discussion by talking about things that have nothing to do with the original subject.
Grizzly stooges. Funny. This thread lost it's credibility about 150 posts ago...
"This discussion is following the usual trajectory for all Grizzly discussions on Knots that are at all critical of the company." Ahhhhhhhh, but who's providing the momentum? Check the mirror, dude. ROFL. IMHO, you're taking this stuff wayyyyyyyy too seriously.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/28/2006 12:48 am by forestgirl
forestgirl,I was sticking with the subject of the discussion until you decided to point out "inconsistencies" in my messages and robert1 decided to provoke me with taunts about my Festool group. I wasn't even addressing you or robert1 in this discussion.
BT, you by default address all of us when you make bogus claims about threads being deleted because they are about "this company" or "that company." When you contradict yourself you simply look foolish and, at the very least, out of touch with your own beliefs. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised when you acknowledged that the threads in question were deleted not because they are about a particular tool company, but because they devolved into nastiness that went beyond the pale. Then you relapsed into making ridiculous broad generalizations, saying (paraphrasing here) they get deleted because they are critical of ___________ (fill in the blank, doesn't really matter).
(a) I'm not bound by whether you, in your mind, are "addressing forestgirl" or not. (b) The topic of discussion changes as different sub-threads enter a thread. This thread was originally about Grizzly and shipping problems. It had nothing to do with threads being deleted (I think you were the first to inject that sub-topic, #62), or "slipping a jointer past the wife" and other other tidbits.
Looking back over the infancy of this thread, it appears the original subject (poor delivery performance and lack of response by Grizzly) and should Grizzly be penalized by losing the OP's business stimulated discussion that illustrates two general attitudes: (Camp 1) The company is solely responsible for all problems involved in the completion of a sale, "the buck stops here" sorta thing and (Camp 2) "C__p happens"; the customer needs to be realistic and be prepared; use problem-solving skills to reach a satisfactory conclusion, etc.
I doubt any of us meant to personally attack the OP. I know I didn't. I can get just as PO'd at a company as anyone else can (don't ask me about Earthlink!!!!). But as a member of "Camp 2" I simply have a different perspective on things than members of Camp 1. I've dealt with customer service from Grizzly (1 tool), Jet (2 tools) and Delta (1 tool and 1 accessory) and have, for the most part, been quite pleased with all of them. Should they cross me, though, I'd could work up a pretty good anger myself.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Looking back over the infancy of this thread, it appears the original subject (poor delivery performance and lack of response by Grizzly) and should Grizzly be penalized by losing the OP's business stimulated discussion that illustrates two general attitudes: (Camp 1) The company is solely responsible for all problems involved in the completion of a sale, "the buck stops here" sorta thing and (Camp 2) "C__p happens"; the customer needs to be realistic and be prepared; use problem-solving skills to reach a satisfactory conclusion, etc.
You're general attitudes are oversimplifications and are clearly written from the attitude of camp two. You paint camp one as people who have to be 100% satisfied, or else they'll refuse to do business any more. This is a narrow view, and is clearly false. A camp one member could clear paint the camp 2 members as egomaniacs, who think that they own the best and their company can do no wrong... which would again be false. The arguments do tend to degrade to this point, but it is not their basis. Obviously neither attitude is adequate...
In general both camps realize that 'stuff' happens. The first question is where do the responsibilities of the company start and end, and where do the responsibility of the customer start and end. Obviously in this case there is a question over who's responsibility is the shipping.
In your general attitudes: Camp one maintains that Grizzly arranges shipping and beyond being there to receive it the item they have no responsibility. Camp two maintains that a shipping is out of Grizzly's hands and is the responsibility of the shipper and the customer. I don't think either camp is being reasonable here. In my view (we'll call it camp 1.5). There is a responsibility of the company from sale to delivery, and likewise for the purchaser. There is no clear boundary of responsibilities.
I do maintain that Grizzly is not Amazon. Amazon uses common everyday carriers, a company that usually delivers to residential homes and is also used by 'normal' people. Grizzly on the other hand uses a freight shipper. Not a common thing to an 'normal' person, and a company that primarily does not delivery residentially. Grizzly, is in a better position to negotiate with a shipper than a one time residential customer.
Buster
Never having bought anything from Amazon or Tool Crib, how do they ship large, heavy items?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I have not ordered large items through Amazon either, I was referring to the manageable sized stuff.
Of note though, certain items are not shipped by Amazon, rather they are shipped by the he dealer. So if you buy a Grizzly machine from Amazon, you'll still be dealing with Grizzly...
Before someone jumps on me; I'm not trying to be tricky. My point was that using Fed-ex is much different than using a freight shipper.
Buster2000,
I've ordered from Amazon and from Grizzly. I received a couple of lemons from Amazon, and all it took was a few words on a form and a few minutes online to have it shipped back, free of charge. In the end, I didn't spend a penny. It was a hassle, of course, but not costly.The only other time I have ever ordered a very large item fright was when I had a Dacor oven shipped to my house. It had faulty electronics. Dacor paid to pick it up and sent us a new one. Actually, for our trouble they gave us a free extension on our warranty. I was hoping we'd get a free refrigerator!By contrast, when I got a lemon from Grizzly, they wanted me to pay return shipping and would not refund the original shipping costs.You're certainly correct that there's a big difference between UPS/Federal Express and freight. But a big part of the equation is the policies of the company you're buying from.Good point about Amazon. People shouldn't think they are getting around Grizzly shipping by ordering on Amazon!
"By contrast, when I got a lemon from Grizzly, they wanted me to pay return shipping and would not refund the original shipping costs."That should tell us who we need to patronize.
I agree that you should choose to patronize a company that meets your needs and expectations, however one should ascertain BEFORE making the purchase whether or not their policys are acceptable to you. They plainly state shipping costs are not refundable and that any returns must be prepaid. Here is a link to their policy page. http://www.grizzly.com/cust_serv.aspx .Expecting them to make the machine function to specifications is reasonable, expecting them to do something they have plainly said in writing they will not do is not reasonable. Do your homework and Caveat Emptor. Think that's how you spell it? Been a long time since I read Gone with the Wind and never have gotten around to learning Latin !
Edited 4/29/2006 9:51 am ET by dgreen
I believe if you rant loudly enough that Grizzly CS will finally get sick of hearing your strident voice and take care of return shipping. Maybe.
HOWEVER, there is no doubt whatsoever that their stated policy is that the buyer is responsible for return shipping and that is what you will hear when you initially contact their customer service department.
If you get your kicks by getting on the phone and speaking to a customer service manager and then the manager of that manager and then the department head of that manager buying from Grizzly will thrill you to no end.
They suck. Pure, plain, and simple.
Not so simple. My five purchases from them (three machines, misc accessories) have all gone well. I've saved over $1000 by buying from them instead of other vendors like Delta, Powermatic or General. So I like them, myself, but obviously have no issues with you wishing to take your business elsewhere.
It's good that we all have the options to buy where we like. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
With all due respect, you won't know if you 'saved' money for some time.
You're absolutely right.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
On further reflection, I'll never know. While I'll know how my story ends, I won't ever know how the alternative would have panned out.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Using that logic you might as well have bought Harbor Freight.
Certainly would'nt have to wait long to find out!
Decisionmaking is generally conducted like this:
Define objectives/goals/needs
Identify alternative solutions
Decide and execute
Evaluate decision
You were basically saying that it would take a long time to evaluate the decision, and I was simply pointing out that it's impossible to precisely know how the alternatives not chosen would have turned out.
That doesn't mean one can't do their best at steps one and two, including weighing others' reports of their own experiences.
Remember, too, that you may have different values and needs than I. For me, a little time futzing around with the machinery isn't a huge problem, and if it takes three weeks to get it set up because I have to wait for parts, well, I don't mind so much. Especially if it saves me $400. For you, maybe you'd rather pay a few extra dollars and have a piece of machinery in which you have immediate confidence. I don't think either of us is wrong.
But I think it's oversimplifying the situation to say that Grizzly is plainly and simply crap, even if it's perfectly reasonable and logical for you, with your needs and values, to refuse to ever consider purchasing their machines.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I must admit to being spoiled to better equipment.
When price is long forgotten service is long remembered.
Some wise individual once wrote " It's not what it cost but what you pay. You can pay attention, pay tribute, or pay dearly." Over the years a new thinking has replaced these thoughts as " the reason so many intelectualy modest people have achieved so much is that they just don't Know when to quit". The buying habits of the multitudes has promoted the big box over the hardware stores where they used to weigh nails by the pound. Whenever we are surprised by the "value" offered by some companies as opposed to the declining Quality offered by others, we tend to form opinions that are not necessarly wrong but ones we tend to defend . The five blindfolded individuals that approached the elephant to only use their sence of touch (and perhaps smell) to conceptionalize the animal had a similar handicap/difference of opinion. As a boy visiting friends of the family on their dairy farm i remember the farmer buying his daughter a minuture snauser as a pet. The dog reacted in a violent manner each time there was an unuasual noise. Barking, growling, posturing and was often met by the farmer harshly addressing her in german(perhaps the gentlemanly thing to have done). The dog would promptly go to her wooden box behind the woodstove and be silent...as the conversation returned to normal there was this defiant "yip" from her box...the last word. It didnt change opinions but it did make us smile.
yep!
Some wise individual once wrote " It's not what it cost but what you pay. You can pay attention, pay tribute, or pay dearly." Do you know who made that statement? Your story reminds me of a young man whose dad got him started in farming and did not make it. He had graduated in agriculture from a university with "all the answers."He ended up working for his dad and learned a few extra things he was not taught in school. It was about trust. His dad had always done business with the same people for over 50 years. Because of his loyalty he got good prices and good service. The son had shopped around and sometimes got better prices but when a tough time came to get what he needed it was not available to him because he was a shopper. But his dad received the same service he always had during that same time.
You are correct in that the (assumed,as he used it in his ads) author was a dairy farmer, dairy supply and equipment dealer. Although he sold and serviced what he considered the best available, what he really sold was "integrity". He was known locally and regionally and usually paid for what he purchased (when he purchased)and he was a shopper. The local farm equipment dealer gave way to the regional supplier with bean counters and salesmen with quotas. The other local dealer now sells cub cadets and grass hoppers and bitterly complains about having to service warranty items on units sold by the big box and central tractor stores. Today as historically, those with means shop for price on what they conclude is best, or a dealer that is convienient. Those without these means, whose purchases are few and dont have a personal track record with a particular supplier, look for sales or equipment of lesser qualities to enjoy their hobby. The local hardware store where you purchased your materials and usually answered any questions you might ask has given way to inexperienced clerks that may/or may not know what "open coat" sheet abrasive really is. Even though we have some businesses being managed by third generation family members I can assure you they are operated in a "professional" manner (change). The active customer is now a client. To those of us that arent in this client status are really the ones that fuel the rest of the market. Market forces create new products and business models. Just because farmer brown was a fifty year steward of his 20,000.00 farm does not reflect automatic success of any that follow. Change the only constant, Quality and intergity priceless, value appreciated, work ethic admired.
John, you will not convince the Grizz haters. I like you, have saved a ton of money. But those that want to pay the big bucks and have the budget have at it. Just take your savings put it in your pocket and chuckle. I was just in a new shop the other day of a new supplier of hardwood for me. He wanted to show off his shop. He sells all quarter sawn and highly figured stuff. He also sells a lot of furniture. I went into his shop and what do I see? You got it, a big 8"grizz jointer and the big 24" belt sanders for doing doors and a big shaper. He had a lot of other stuff that was not grizz as well. He had a big powermatic planer and drill press that looked like they were from the 50's. I asked him why Griz and he said "can't beat the price and good stuff". Been in several comercial shops all saying the same thing. They all can't be wrong. Me as a hobyist just makes since and I have not had anything but good experiences (TS,BS,Horz Boring machine). Hey at the end of the day, if it gets the job done it's a good tool. Take care.
My point was that using Fed-ex is much different than using a freight shipper.
Unless, of course, you're talking about Fed Ex Freight. Which is what Tool Crib / Amazon uses for big tools. Like the time I got my Unisaw. The time that Fed Ex told me they'd call beforehand. The time I get a call from work from my wife, telling me there's a FedEx semi who just showed up, and is stuck on the driveway. The time I had to drop everything at work and rush home to deal with the situation.
Did I say MY GOD, I'M NEVER BUYING FROM AMAZON AGAIN! What about all the lost time and money I experienced?
Of course not. Life is short, stuff happens, and getting 400-1000 pound items to your shop ain't exactly like ordering pizza.
BTW, if you order from Grizzly and get a damaged product, of course you'll get a replacement free of charge. Many people have.
Unless, of course, you're talking about Fed Ex Freight.
I wasn't. I clearly pointed out that I was talking about 'manageable sized items'.
Did I say MY GOD, I'M NEVER BUYING FROM AMAZON AGAIN! What about all the lost time and money I experienced?
Please note I've never said that people should not order from Grizzly. I've only advocated that Grizzly needs to improve it's customer service in relations to delivery problems. As I have said many times, in my opinion the OP overreacted a bit by refusing shipment.
As a side note, Fed-Ex is also a very well known company. Whereas 'Busters Freight' isn't. Hence the reason many of these delivery problems are directed completely at Grizzly. All the more they should improve their customer service related to delivery.
Of course not. Life is short, stuff happens, and getting 400-1000 pound items to your shop ain't exactly like ordering pizza.
Very true. As has been posted many times on this thread: Some people are just not made for 'mail' order.
Hi Buster. Yep, I boiled the descriptions of those two "camps" down to their core ("oversimplification"). Otherwise, the post would have been 2000 words long (exaggeration).
"who think that they own the best and their company can do no wrong... " Not sure how you got that conclusion out of what I posted (""C__p happens"; the customer needs to be realistic and be prepared; use problem-solving skills to reach a satisfactory conclusion, etc. "). Doesn't matter what company I'm dealing with or how often I've dealt with them, that's just the mind-set I happen to have re: dealing with businesses.
To clarify: I do not consider Grizzly "my company." I only own 1 (one) Grizzly tool, out of 5 larger power tools in my shop. Never have considered it "the best." It was simply what I could afford at the time, and it does everything I ask it to do at less than half the $$ I would have paid for a Jet or Delta back in those days. I don't make tool-buying decisions by starting with a specific company and then choosing the tool. The tool is chosen individually. Makes my shop's fung shui pretty bad, as it's a mix of white, blue (old Jet), green, black-and-blue (the planer, not my body, usually), and....hmmmmm....whatever color the Bosch miter saw is. ROFL!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
For the record I own NO Grizzly tools, nor can I own them without a great deal of difficulty (Canadian). I am not a mail order type of person for the most part, but have ordered things in the past. If I seem part of 'camp 1' it's because when I read these threads I see them being treated very unfairly. Many times I don't agree with the OP's actions (as in this case), but Grizzly's actions seem to be no better.
Many years ago I worked at Canadian Tire (Canadian automotive, housewares, sporting goods... etc.). One day soon after I started a woman came into the store looking for peat moss for her garden, it was early in the year so the garden centre was not open yet. She went up to the housewares desk (which was near the garden area), and the employee in the area directed her over to my desk (sports/garden). She ended up going to the automotive desk, who again directed her to my desk. Instead she went to customer service to get this 'sorted out'. They called me up. When I arrived she was very upset, she had been directed from desk to desk for 10 minutes all for a $5 bag of peat moss. I asked her how I could help her, and when she told me what she wanted I said "I'm sorry I don't know if we do that yet, I'll have to call my manager." (I know poor choice of words, but I was a new employee and it WAS my first job). At that she stormed out of the store saying she would go elsewhere. She ended up writing a complaint letter about me (the only one I have ever got.)
In the end the customer overreacted (I'll never shop here again!). I remember seeing her prior to the whole thing at the gardening desk, but very far back in line. I assume that she left that desk to go to the housewares desk to get service a little quicker. Had she just waited her turn she would have gotten the peat moss and been able to leave. So it's easy to blame her on this. Some people you just can not please.
However after some thought I realize this was a company problem. The culture was that you didn't go outside your area, partially due to product knowledge. However any of the desk they went to would have been able to look up 'peat moss' in the computer and called the stock guy to go get it. Secondly the idea of just pointing a customer to another desk is annoying. That's not service. Finally the department I was in was severely understaffed that day. (Just me as a new employee, and my manager who was trying to get out of there to make a softball game). The other departments were empty, in the end the store owner had to come down to relieve me.
How does this compare to Grizzly? In the end it's easy to blame the customer for 'not doing the right thing', but until your in that situation that you feel your getting jerked around by customer service... It's easy to say that some people can not be pleased, however a good customer service policy will not let it get to that point.
So the store goes to all the trouble and expense to have a desk for each department, staffed by personnel familiar with the products in that department, a woman comes in who thinks the sun rises and sets in the crack of her a** and who is far too important to remain in the line that could have helped her, goes to desks in unrelated departments (what about the poor sap behind her in the automotive line to buy a $2 sparkplug while she ties up the help trying to get peat moss for godsake)throws a fit and writes a letter blaming you and you think it's a customer service problem? Boggles the imagination....
Are you in retail?
Sold tools until 3 mos. ago. Now at long last a full time self-employed hopefully not starving woodworker. Now the only self-important jerk I have to deal with is me !! Are you in retail?
Congrats on the job change.
I haven't worked in retail since I was in university. But I spent a number of years in a oil service company, and the parallels are uncanny...
I should explain, Can Tire works mainly on part time high school students. Product knowledge might have been that your parents owned one... Good training might have been you were shown how to cut keys. The desk were not staffed 100% of the time, in fact if you were standing at the desk without a customer you were in the wrong place. Finally the garden department sat directly in between the housewares and the sporting goods desk. It would be reasonable to expect some sort of association at either desk.
I took the incident very personally at the time. Of course I had to go through meetings with various managers, and I was lucky to keep my job. But really in the end, beyond a poor choice in words, it wasn't my fault. Of course to the managers I was the last person she talked to, so if it wasn't;t my fault who's was it? Trace it back, well it wasn't automotive fault he's in automotive, and it wasn't...
It's easy to say the woman was evil. But I've had things like this happen to me, and I'm not one to get upset. Sports/garden where I worked was busy because of the beginning of soccer season. The other departments were not, beyond getting stock out. Had the managers on duty reallocated someone to help at sports desk, more customers could have been served faster. Had the housewares desk looked it up on the computer, the warehouse guy could have grabbed it in no time.
The store made some policies along these lines after the incident. If a customer asked for assistance you had to help them if possible, and if not you had to take them to someone who could. A simple thing that cut the number of complaints drastically.
Note: No amount of customer service will change the fact that stuff happens, and that some customers expect too much. However it can lessen the impact of these things on the company.
Can Tire sounds a lot like our local big box store!
It's like a mini-box store. It pretty much sells what the big stores don't, with a little overlap in the tools department. When you're in a small town it's THE store to go to. Beyond the grocerie stores it was the biggest store in town for years. The town now has a Walmart, so sad.
When I used to work at Can Tire all the guys had ties and the women were required to wear these scarves. They were the most hideous things ever.
forestgirl,
I do think that the earlier Grizzly-related thread needed to be deleted because it devolved (yes, that is a word) into total nastiness. But I regret that it did devolve, because I think the original point was valid. As far as it being related to the fact that it was a Grizzly thread, well, that's just my opinion. I have a feeling that if the same complaint was lodged about Amazon, or if this current discussion were called "NEVER ORDERING FROM AMAZON AGAIN" it would not have caused such a problem.If you watch this thread, you'll see a couple of people (robert1, for example) going out of their way to make sure this one also becomes completely nasty.By the way, I have never had a problem with you jumping in at any time during a discussion. But I wasn't addressing you until you told me I was the one "providing the momentum" for this argument. I think it's fair to say we both are. As far as Robert1 goes, I was not addressing him until he decided to repeatedly insult my Festool Owners Group.On your premise about two camps, I have to disagree. I think there is a middle ground: the customer accepts some risk when doing mail orders, but it is also valid to judge a company by how well they help a customer get through a problem situation. If a machine is delivered with defects, well, the buyer has to deal with the hassles of a return. But the company ought to help with the process and not load on extra charges.In that earlier Grizzly discussion, one of the participants wrote something to the effect of "some people are just not mail-order types." That point stayed with me.
Edited 4/28/2006 10:40 pm ET by BanyanTree
forestgirl,
What were you referring to when you wrote, "slipping a jointer past the wife"?I meant to ask you this in my last message, but forgot.
It's been so long now, thread-wise, I can't remember who it was, but one of our own was joking about "slipping a jointer past the wife" and a few of us made suggestions as to how that tool might be added to the shop without the wife noticing (or caring in my case, as I recommended at day at the spa for her, while the jointer was being delivered and "installed").forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
And, as I have said before - it is indeed Grizzly's problem - the shipper is their subcontractor.
And as I've said before, legally they are not. They are your subcontractor. It says so right in the T&C's. The Terms of the sale are FOB the Grizzly warehouse.
If it makes you feel better, there's a post over on the Woodnet site about how FedEx screwed up an Amazon order. 'happens to all the carriers every once in a while.
BarryO,
Of course, shipping problems occur with all companies. But the test of a good company is how they follow up and help the customer, or if they fail to do that and hide behind supposed necessities of shipping issues.I've read about, and experienced myself, shipping problems with Grizzly, in both directions, as well as their refusal to work with customers who end up having trouble.Amazon has its own problems, but you can get a good deal on shipping in one direction, and if you need to ship a defective machine back, it costs you nothing. Try that with Grizzly!!
Edited 4/28/2006 4:33 pm ET by BanyanTree
Amazon has its own problems, but you can get a good deal on shipping in one direction, and if you need to ship a defective machine back, it costs you nothing. Try that with grizzly!!
Based on numerous posts on various woodworking forums, people have tried that with Grizzly and succeeded.
I don't want to re-hash your drill press experience here, but I'd feel confident enough to do business with Grizzly again. So would I with Amazon, who didn't give me a choice on my freight-delivered tools, either, or the other two places that I've received damaged tools from in the past.
Looking back at the orignal post (I had forgotten what started all this), I still feel it is unreasonable to somehow require Grizzly to be responsible for whether or not a freight company keeps a precise schedule. To require a gift certificate or other partial refund because they can't guarantee that the freight company will be at his doorstep at a certain time? The customer is not always right, and they are not in this case.
I agree with the orginal poster that, given his specific set of requirements, the local Woodcraft is a much better source for his power tools.
Edited 4/28/2006 4:50 pm by BarryO
robert1,
Clearly, you are trying to pick a fight with your insults.
First of all, the Festool Owners Group has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, as you know. You forced the Festool Group into this discussion just so you could get a few jabs in.
Regarding your list of reasons why the Festool Group is supposedly different from Knots, it serves the same purpose -- to hurl unprovoked insults my way. All your comments, starting with calling it FEG, are meant simply to provoke. Anyone following this discussion will see that.
Knowing our difficult past, I tried to engage humorously with you a little while back and communicate with you cordially. You decided to become insulting in return.
"Regarding your list of reasons why the Festool Group is supposedly different from Knots, it serves the same purpose -- to hurl unprovoked insults my way. All your comments, starting with calling it FEG, are meant simply to provoke. Anyone following this discussion will see that."mas·och·ism Audio pronunciation of "masochist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ms-kzm)
n. 1. The deriving of sexual gratification, or the tendency to derive sexual gratification, from being physically or emotionally abused.
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.[After Leopold von Sacher-Masoch (1836-1895), Austrian novelist.]masoch·ist n.
masoch·istic adj.
masoch·isti·cal·ly adv.
It would appear that this thread is now certifiably Derailed, ROFL!!! Just knew it would happen eventually. Toooooo funny!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Love it when Mat gets wound up...glad he's not my next door neighbor though...
Forest,
You are wrong, I believe you have missed the target completely.
Being such a bright girl here on Knots, I'm surprised that Mat was able to mislead you so far.
This is how it works, Mat is actually a Grizzly employee, he gets paid to generate propaganda with unsubstantiated information which the average reader notices immediately as wrong. The reaction is tons and tons of support for Grizzly, in defence and moving new customers over to Grizzly.
I believe so far he has been very successful in generating new as well as additional sales.
Willie
Willie,
Actually, I wasn't the one who started this discussion. Nor was I the one who dragged it into the mud. Your friends robert1 and forestgirl did that. And they certainly seem to be more likely candidates for Grizzly employment.
Edited 4/27/2006 8:17 pm ET by BanyanTree
Sysop,Stick a fork in this thread, she's done.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Awwww, c'mon, G, it's just getting started! When the adjective childish is launched, it's about to break open into authentic name-calling. Won't be long now!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Found this quite interesting.Banyan (Ficus subgenus Urostigma) is a subgenus of many species of tropical figs with an unusual growth habit. They are large trees that usually start life as a seedling epiphytic on another tree (or on structures like buildings and bridges), where a fig-eating bird has deposited the seed. The roots descend over the trunk of the host seeking out the soil below, once they have rooted into this the fig roots rapidly thicken and lignify. Where the fig roots cross each other they fuse, thus creating a lattice around the host tree's trunk. The fig competes with its host for light, water and nutrients, while its roots prevent the host's trunk from growing. Eventually the host dies and rots away, leaving the fig self supporting as an ordinary tree, but with a tubular lattice of lignified roots instead of a trunk. For this reason banyans are often referred to as strangler figs.
dgreen,
You wrote this:
"For this reason banyans are often referred to as strangler figs."This is like saying that cats are often referred to as Siamese.In any case, Strangler figs are one species of Banyan tree. Strangler figs are a vital part of the ecology where they grow, in southern Florida, forming durable and unique shelters for wildlife.Banyan trees are the national tree of India, and they have been coveted by arborists for centuries.
I learned long ago that most disagreements generally progress through three stages:
1. The facts are debated.
2. The opponents ideas are ridiculed, usually because the attacker is factually challenged.
3. The opponet is ridiculed, usually an attempt to bolster one's ego.
Obviously, only stage 1 is productive. I believe this thread deserves a new stage, idiocy.
Art
Take it up with wikipedia, I just cut and pasted. Seemed to have an interesting relation to some posts on this thread when taken in it's entirety ! Always been interested in the screen names people pick for themselves.
"You're stupid"
"YOU'RE stupid"
"You're ugly"
"Super ugly!"
"You started it"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"
"Stop poking me!"
"Mom! He's poking me!!!!" "If I have to pull this thread over,.... someone's gonna get it!""Sound familiar? Is everyone done with this?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Sorry, highfigh, I had to get in one more composition before fading out for the weekend. Looks like I'll miss the final devolution (is that a word?) to oblivion. Father-in-law's 101st birthday party this weekend!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Wow- 101 and still going. Not a surprise party, is it? Happy Birthday to him!I have an idea- show this thread to him and get his reaction. He'd probably read it, walk off shaking his head muttering, "Argh! These kids nowadays!".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 4/28/2006 11:35 am by highfigh
dgreen,
Wikipedia is not a completely reliable source of information! And anyway, it's rather a stretch to relate the characteristics of a banyan tree to the current post. But even if you did, you can't just pick out the parts that suit you!
Did not claim it was reliable, just interesting. It was cut and pasted in it's entirety and was considered as such. Am not at all surprised you find it a "stretch".
I don't recall who said it, but here it is;"I would rather be thought a fool, than open my mouth (keyboard?) and remove all doubt."'Nuff said?Tomone, Western Pennsylvania
Oh brother...
I didn't say Wikipedia was a stretch. Connecting Wikipedia's description of a banyan tree to this discussion -- that's a stretch.
Edited 4/28/2006 6:06 pm ET by BanyanTree
As I said, it does'nt surprise me that you find it a stretch.
All right then. Tell me how the characteristics of a banyan tree relate to this discussion. Like I said to robert1, instead of offering a vague, indirect hint at some idea, say directly what you mean.
It's as succinct as I care to make it. Trying to explain further would be like trying to teach a pig to dance, it would frustrate me and irritate the pig.
Banyan Tree
Interesting. Sounds like it could be considered parasitic. Where does this "tree" grow? I've not heard of them around here> WV.
Frankly, I think this explanation is as about as pertinent to the subject as some of the rest of the quarreling.
Edited 4/28/2006 10:46 pm ET by tinkerer2
Sounded parasitic to me also. Definetly not beneficial to it's host. Only ones I've seen personally were in Hawaii. Apparently found elsewhere also.
Boy, that was a fast answer. Didn't even give me time enough to edit my post.
Just sat down for a cup of coffe and my e-mail beeped!
robert1,
Aren't you just so proud of yourself? You know, coming up with unprovoked childish insults is such a challenge.
With your antics, you have made sure that a post entitled "NEVER BUYING GRIZZLY AGAIN" stays right on top.
robert1,
Who is more childish, the one who begins with taunts and name-calling, or the one who tries to avoid it?
Here are some questions for you:
What precisely is wrong with this thread? Why do you consider this discussion to be the "problematic propagation of dubious threads"?
What is the relevance of the Festool Owners group to this discussion?
Why do you feel the need to insult the Festool group and me along with it in this discussion?
Try answering these questions directly, without further taunts and insults. Don't answer with vague references to encyclopedia entries and dictionary definitions -- state your point directly.
Robert, stop... you can still be saved. :)
I haven't read every thread in this post, so I apologize if my point has already been made.
I think the whole issue could have been avoided by purchasing your equipment from a local machine dealer. You can't get Grizzly or Bridgewood or any of the other catalog brands, but you can buy Delta, Powermatic and a bunch of other great machines manufactured here and overseas. You'll pay more, but part of what you're paying for is your dealer's expertise, advice and service. If there are shipping problems, they're his headache. If something goes wrong down the road, he's there to resolve a warranty issue or repair your machine. And, best of all, you're supporting a local guy, much as you would like to be supported by people who buy furniture, cabinets or whatever you make in your community. I'm lucky to have several really good dealers relatively close by, but if you don't have a dealer within a reasonable distance, then I guess your're stuck with the catalogs. Anyway, one man's opinion.
Yes indeedy! You get what you pay for whether it be quality, service,hand holding or all of the above. Some people do very well with catalog purchases, I suspect they went into the deal with their eyes open, did their homework, had reasonable expectations and a willingness to contribute some effort into making the bang for the buck work.
Mike,
Well of course you're right. As I've noted before, some people are not "mail order type of people", and would be much better off buying local and letting the retailer deal with freight scheduling, replacement of damaged shipments, etc.
For most product lines you have a choice of mail order and retail. This is well-known with Delta and PM, etc. Even the CEO of Grizzly serves the retail market with the Shop Fox line of tools: same stuff, different paint job, longer warranty and retailer support, but of course more expensive.
Even for myself, I don't think I'd buy mail order from Grizzly or anyone else sight unseen. If I wasn't driving distance from one of their locations the only one of their tools I'd have would be a bandsaw I bought off a co-worker who was moving cross-country.
BarryO,
Were you the one who made that point about some people "not being mail order types" back in the earlier Grizzly discussion? Like I've said, that was probably the best, most concise point to come out of that whole mess.
Can't get Bridgewood or Grizzly from local dealer.
I think you can get a Bridgewood or Grizzly from a local dealer too if you live close enough. For me it is a five or six hour drive across Pennsylvania, but it is doable in a day. In fact, I am seriously considering driving over to get a Bridgewood Planer. OOh, I hope I didn't say that too loud! I bought a BW spindle sander some years ago and the freight was outrageous.
My theory, All these companies are trying to sell the mostest for the lessest. Grizzly seems to have the best price - so where do they cut corners? Well, it seems their freight arrangement is not the best. Possible, quality control could be improved upon, as if they all couldn't stand a little improvement there. If one can put up with a little of that, it seems he might save a little money along the line. If that isn't ones cup of tea, hey, there is Powermatic.
Edited 4/29/2006 11:25 pm ET by tinkerer2
T2, hope you have an enjoyable trip for that planer. I'm clueless on the Bridgewood organization, but re: Grizzly, that's not "a local dealer" in Penn., it's one of the three Grizzly showrooms in the USA. And, as they state on the web site "Before you drive a long distance, please call 1-800-523-4777 to verify the item that you are interested in is available." One trip to Bellingham (~3 hours from my house) with a friend, they were out of stock on numerous tools. One of those months where all the WWers were splurging on new tools I guess.
One of the main factors in Grizzly's pricing scheme is probably not selling through dealers. They are the wholesaler and the retailer. That and inventory control probably are major factors in keeping the retail prie down.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Grizzly, that's not a local dealer in Penn.
Oh you perfectionist. They are local (sort of) and they deal. So why aren't they a local dealer? If you haven't heard of Bridgewood or Yorktown by Wilke, it is probably the freight thing. I had a spindle sander shipped and was astounded by the amount of freight charges. I suppose Bridgewood might fall in the same catagory as Grizzly. You have a lot of explaining to do to bring me up to the enlightened age
Hey, again. I've certainly heard of Bridgewood, Yorktown and Wilke (even have a catalog or two!). Just didn't realize, I guess, that they were direct-sellers only, not through "dealers." the Yorktown jointer gets alot of good press, both in the mags and from owners. Not many of them "owners" around though, seemingly due to the high cost of (drum rolllllll) shipping!
Let us know how it goes with the planer. Inquiring minds will want to know!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
PS: Not sure I'm enlightened.....just old (aaarrrrrgh!).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Mike_B,
What you just said is the conclusion I came to after trying things another way. As someone else has said, not all of us are right for mail-ordering large tools. Especially if we have a woodshop in the basement that requires the help of one or two others to get a machine in and out!But still, even if you just compare mail-order companies, specific policies can create extra headaches on top of the "usual" headaches that naturally come from mail orders.Anyway, I now find what I need in stores where I can see the tool myself. I learned the hard way, but I learned.
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