Myths & Confusion: MS blades vs. TS blad
forestgirl
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
OK, we gotta get this clarified. I’ve seen a couple of posts where folks warn about not using a “table saw blade” on a miter saw. Taking a quick browse through the giant Freud catalog at my desk, near as I can tell, the tools that need specially-designed blades are sliding miter saws and radial arm saws. The blades recommended for them are less aggressive by way of a reduced hook angle.
I see nothing that indicates the regular blades shouldn’t be used on a standard miter saw. If anyone out there can document otherwise, please LMK.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
I think you've got it right. I've never seen or experienced anything to the contrary, and I've gone through quite a few miter saw blades. It's the sliders and RAS's that need special attention.
Michael R
I find the negative rake on my DeWalt better than the positive rake on Makita!
Would like to see a definitive test on the efficacy of the two.
What type of saw, please?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sorry about that,708 mitre.
The negative rake blades on scms and ras reduce the tendency of the blade to climb.However the type and cross section of the material also has a bearing on the amount of rake, number of teeth and form even when the blades are used on a miter saw.For example thin cross section aluminium extrusions or fine cherry mouldings
Jamie -
I may be asking for trouble but I've been asking for it for years without having any. I don't discriminate between the type of blade(s) I use on my Bosch slider. I'm extremely careful with it and always have the material well supported and/or clamped depending on the type of cut. I never ~pull~ the blade through the material, always push. I've even used my Forrest WWII at times.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis, I think that blade manufacturers will say the the biggest plus of the negative hook is that produces a nicer cut. With a SCMS, you should be pushing the blade through the wood so there is no chance of climbing.Radial Arm Saws used standard sawblades up until fairly recently. Negative hook blades are relatively new. I never had a problem with standard blades on my RAS. Mostly it has a 50 tooth ATB&R positive hook blade running on it.Howie.........
Howie -I had some aluminum composite material I needed to work and my saw shop suggested a 60T negative hook blade. Worked like a charm both in the SCMS ~and~ the table saw. The advantage in this case was less danger of crabbing the thin material. Once done with that project I've used it on wood as well and you're right with respect to the quality of cut. Very nice indeed.Years ago when I was a kid I used my Dad's RAS once. Never had any instructions on using one. Found out the hard way one does NOT pull a RAS blade through the material. Made a believer out of me!...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
For aluminum cutting, a negative blade makes sence. However, I think any experianced RAS users pull the blade through the work.Howie.........
Now that I think about it, the big (as in REALLY big) radial saws I've seen on big commercial jobsites always seem to be pulled through the work. Still, don't sound too comfy to me............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Trust me, you do NOT want to push a RAS blade through the work! Not unless you want a lot of excitement. The few times I have seen it tried, the saw picked up the lumber and threw it against the saw column.
It took me a long time to adjust to the idea of pushing a SCMS, but the geometry is apparently enough different that it works.
On a different note, positive hook on a saw blade is there because it helps the saw cut and feed easier. This is not an advantage in certain situations where you don't want the saw to self-feed, like on radial arm saws and SCMS's.
Zero and negative hook configurations have been in use for decades for metal cutting, and in the past 20 years or so, people found out they give a better finish on melamine and other laminated materials.
Michael R
one does NOT pull a RAS blade through the materia??PUSH?? I have a old 12 inch RAS and ALWAYS PULLS!I still alive???
Looks like the two blades designated for sliders and RASs are mainly to make things a bit easier and safer. I'm sure your precautions and experience will keep you out of trouble. Rather belatedly, I saw the icons for miter saw on the various pages. Other than rip blades, the only blade that was not indicated for a miter saw was the 50-tooth TK900 thin kerf combo blade, which has a 5-tooth + large gullet design to facilitate ripping. All the other 10" blades indicate they can be used on miter saws, with 2 specifically designated for sliders.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thank for clearing this up forestgirl, I was propagating the myth because of what I was told. Next time I'll do some research.
I too have the 10"bosche slider with a freud blade works like a charm and concur with your comment. Cheers.
F.G.,
Ideally, a TS is for ripping an a MS is for cross-cutting.
So, it's a matter of tooth design mostly.
A TS, however can do cross-cutting, with the proper blade, but in a MS, a ripping blade would not make sense.
-mbl-
"but in a MS, a ripping blade would not make sense." Ya think?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"but in a MS, a ripping blade would not make sense." Ya think?!forestgirl
....Forest Girl,It is not advisable to go against the grain with a rip blade. That's what's meant.-mbl-
It is not advisable to go against the grain with a rip blade. That's what's meant.
A ripping blade works well both with and against the grain. It just doesn't work well across the grain, in woodspeak.
If I may presume to speak for FG, I think she knew that already..........
Michael R
A ripping blade works well both with and against the grain. It just doesn't work well across the grain, in woodspeak.If I may presume to speak for FG, I think she knew that already..........Michael R
---Very happy about her knowledge, Mike, no issue there.She was asking for clarification on why not to use a TS blade in a MS, and as you say, a TS blade being meant for ripping when so marked or catalogued would in general not be advisable for us as a Chop saw, or miter saw, or radial saw, or chop/slide saw since those machines are meant for cross-cutting, in woodwork terms, as you correctly say (thanks).A rip saw would not only be inadequate but unsafe due to its propensity to dig, grab, tilt,toss, deform as the cut across the grain be made, and MS's are cross-cutters.So, if it's a table-saw blade (by manufacturer designation), it'd generally be meant for rip, or combination, so it's not totally a myth that it ought not be used in a MS.Best of all.-mbl-
You coulda fooled me - I wonder why I have all those 10" ATB table saw blades, along with the flat top, triple chip, high ATB, and combination blades. Lots of folks do lots of crosscutting on a table saw.
And what about that premium all around table saw blade, the Forrest Woodworker II, that has a 15 dgree ATB configuration - a standard crosscut tooth?
I think that you will agree with me that while there are many blades that are suitable for use on a table saw for different materials, there is no such thing as a blade that is suitable only for table saws, with the possible exception of a flattop rip blade.
Michael R
Dear Woodwiz,Isn't the survey on using TS blades in MS's?In TS's one can crosscut, specially with the blades you are mentioning, of course.Am saying basically that there are blades marked "TABLE SAW" by the manufacturer, and some that, though are not marked, are listed as for use with table saws. Those are the ones that, would say, ought not be used in MS, radials, or the newer chop-slide saws.Don't see where any type of blade from MS and the likes that fits can not be used in a table saw, for the right purpose and material, but not the other way, at least in an advisable way.In a RAS, it is possible to rip, though, and that'd be done with, of course, a rip blade, sidewise, and with the right understanding.Best of all.-mbl-
"If I may presume to speak for FG, I think she knew that already.........." Yeah, no kidding. Thank you Woodwiz, for getting the drift of my "Ya think?!" exclamation.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The thought of putting a rip blade in a miter saw never, ever entered my mind. Why would it? A miter saw is a cross-cut machine.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The thought of putting a rip blade in a miter saw never, ever entered my mind. Why would it? A miter saw is a cross-cut machine.forestgirl
...However, this is your original question:
...
OK, we gotta get this clarified. I've seen a couple of posts where folks warn about not using a "table saw blade" on a miter saw.
...
and, as said before, a "table saw blade", as identified by the manufacturer, would have to be a RIP blade or at least a combo and is not meant for a MS.Hence, it was pointed out that what you call a myth would not be a total myth.If all is clear, then the question would no longer apply.-mbl-
"a "table saw blade", as identified by the manufacturer, would have to be a RIP blade or at least a combo and is not meant for a MS."
Well, I guess that's where we disagree. As I mentioned above, with the exception of rip blades and the 2 SCMS blades, all of the blades in my catalog are indicated for use inboth a table saw and a miter saw, including combo, general purpose and cross-cut blades. I think this is a situation where most folks understood what I was getting at, and your take on it was simply different. Any suggestion of a rip blades was, by default, not part of the disucssion.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 3/22/2005 1:13 pm ET by forestgirl
Dear Forest Girl,You sate: "As I mentioned above, with the exception of rip blades and the 2 SCMS blades etc." and it may need to be said that that's because manufacturers of blades design and make saw blades PRIMARILY FOR EQUIPMENT AND THEN BY FUNCTION to be performed there."By Equipment first" would meant that design/manufacturing factors such as blade diameter size, hole bore, RPM's, plate structure and such come FIRST, then the function to be achieved in that particular equipment follows.As such, Oldham, for instance, offers their blades under the categories of Table Saw Blades, Miter Saw Blades, and the likes, BY EQUIPMENT.Under the category for Table Saw they do not list cross-cut blades, for the Table Saw is fundamentally a ripper machine. Under the category of Miter Saw, likewise, they do not list rip blades, nor combination, nor general-purpose blades.You did refer to a 'myth' that relates to saw-blades 'by equipment' and not 'by function'. It is so, and that, which is being addressed.The blade in the attached picture, for instance, is marked "TABLE SAW" and "ENGINEERED FOR A SPECIFIC SAW" (it does not say "engineered for a specific function"). Thus, it would NOT be a myth (lie) to say that that blade, marked "TABLE SAW", as per manufacturer's designation, and not by personal criteria, is not meant for use in a miter saw. Manufacturers list specific blades for specific equipment and that is the starting place also for a buyer of a saw-blade, for if a buyer goes out looking for cross-cut blades only, he/she may end up with a blade that does not fit the equipment, may need equipment modifications that are seldom called-for, or worse, might constitute a dangerous condition for self or others.That's why it was said "It is not a total myth".May all be well with you.-mbl-
Usually, saw manufacturers will stipulate certain criteria for blade use on the machine to limit liability. For instance, SCMS makers often recommend negative hook blades to reduce the tendancy of the blade to lift the material from the table. If there were a need for different blades for different types of saws they would be produced with odd arbor sizes to prevent using the wrong blade. It is true that a rip blade should not be used on a SCMS but it would probably work fine on a CMS (except that it wouldn't produce a great cut). Jamie has it right in terms of wood cutting blade crossover between machines. Low and negative hook are designed for special applications and some are for sliding saws but all could be used on a table saw or miter saw. Ripping blades should not be used on SCMS, nor should any blade with aggressive hook angles, but will work on CMS and table saw and even RAS for ripping. The bottom line is check with the saw manufacturer to find any limitations on saw blade usage.In regards to blade diameter, I know of no manufacturers that disallow using smaller than stock blade sizes but they all say to not use a larger one. For table saws, a smaller blade has the effect of reducing the load much the same way a thin kerf blade does. While I don't know of any problems from using a 10" blade on a 12" miter saw other than depth of cut, I do advise consulting the saw manufacturer before attempting this.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Thanks Charles for your input and good advice of checking the manufacturer guidelines.At your Freud site, if one follows the tag "Which saw blade do I need?", the next screen pompts:
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Step 1: Which type of saw is this blade for?
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(which amounts to "by equipment first").As to the comment "If there were a need for different blades for different types of saws they would be produced with odd arbor sizes to prevent using the wrong blade", though, can not find deep reality there, since arbor size relates to blade diameter and equipment horse-power fundamentally.And, as to "While I don't know of any problems from using a 10" blade on a 12" miter saw other than depth of cut", would like to point out that it is not possible to fit a 10" blade which has a 5/8" arbor hole in a 12" miter saw which comes with a 1" diameter arbor, which again are equipment factors that need to come FIRST.This comes from having just checked freudtools.com site, which by the way, does not seem to show any negative-hook angle blades.Unless missed, any particular technical reason for that?Thanks again.-mbl-
Dear Charles,Did find the negative hook angle blades under:LU91R Industrial Perma-SHIELDâ„¢ Coated Sliding Compound Miter BladesCan't seem to find the Diablo blades series there, though.-mbl-
Dear Charles,Found them under the 'Contractor' series and they look pretty good.Also, noticed that several of the Diablo series show "Excelent" cut quality at the bar charts, while blades from the Woodworking series, even the Premier line show barchart cut quality only to the "Good" level.Would appreciate if you'd help, there.-mbl-
The "equipment first" is because that is the simplest place to start. Oldham used it to market the blade you pictured but I assure that there is nothing special about it that limits it to a table saw. In fact, it appears to be a 40 general purpose blade and would probably be respectable for use on a CMS. That label makes it easier for the uninitiated to shop for blades.
Our blade selector is designed to help you select the proper saw blade and we have one for nearly every application and nearly every type of saw but that does not mean that those are the only choices or that there are not blades that can be used on many types of saws.We offer three distinct lines of saw blades and the performance charts are to compare between blades of the same line. For instance, Diablo blade charts relate to other Diablo blades not to the charts on the Industrial blades.HTHCharles M
Freud America, Inc.
Dear Charles,Thank you for the reply.Of course, the blade in the photo can be used wherever it fits, and it can be used in a miter saw, or where it might fit.But, for a miter saw, say a 10", typically 80 teeth or so would be the choice and is the recommendation of blade makers, for instance Oldham and Forrest. Their grouping their blades "by equipment" would be in consideration to the issue that even the most advanced woodworker may not be aware of all of the technical details behind the engineering and structural characteristics of a blade.Hence, going "by equipment", would say, is not meant for beginners only.It's not too different from buying tires for vehicles, would say. "For what car" is the starting point at most points of sale.Again, thank you much.-mbl-
MBL
I don't know what your background is, because you haven't bothered to put any information in a profile, but I have over 30 years as a professional, 20 of them in industrial woodworking, using the "big stuff". I've also had college course work that covered tool design, cutting and machining, if those factors mean anything.. Let me assure you that blade choice is determined by the material being cut, material thickness, type of cut,and the way the blade approaches the material, with consideration given to type of machine.
For example, a 50 tooth 4 and 1 pattern combination blade will give fairly good all around performance on a table saw, RAS, or CMS.
If I'm cutting raw particle board, I probably want about a 60 tooth triple-chip pattern on those same three machines.
If I'm cutting melamine board and want a smooth cut, I might want a High-ATB blade with a negative hook on those three saws, plus it would work fine on a sliding miter saw.
If I'm ripping lumber, I might want to use a flat-top grind on my table saw, or if I like excitement, my RAS. I might use the same blade with a 2 inch arbor hole on a small gang-rip saw, and bush it down to use on a table saw.
If I'm cutting grooves, I'll probably use my 8" dado set on table saw or RAS.
If I'm crosscutting and need fine finishing cuts on my table saw or CMS or RAS, I'd use a 60 or 80 tooth ATB blade. As a pro, I do a lot of crosscutting on my table saw, as well as cutting up all manner of sheet goods, in addition to ripping. I doubt whether I spend even 1/3 of my time on the table saw ripping.
As far as arbor size goes, there are no hard and fast rules. I had a double-end tenoner that had 1" arbors for its 10" ATB trim blades, and I have had all kinds of equipment such as gang saws where I had special arbor sizes punched, or where I used bushings on the arbor.
Your idea that blade use is determined by machine starts to fall apart badly when you think about using a flat top blade on a table saw when cutting up plywood. I'd get an awful looking cut, and I'd look really silly saying "well, it's a table saw blade."
So what it boils down to in order of priority when selecting blades is type of material, type of cut, thickness of material, and feed rate, with consideration given to the type of machine. All blades are interchangeable on machines where their characteristics match the intended use and the requirements of the particlar machine.
The fact that some manufacturers simplify their recommendations for hobby users doesn't change the facts of the matter. As Charles said, it's mostly a matter of limiting liability, and anybody who knows their equipment at all simply ignores those recommendations and just uses the right blade for the application. As you can see from the posts, most anybody who is at all serious about woodworking learns at least the basics of blade choice.
This is a silly argument. If this, along with Charles' and everybody else's input, doesn't demonstrate the truth of the matter enough to persuade you, then I doubt you will ever be persuaded.
Michael R
Dear Woodwiz,If it is not interpreted "Equipment First" as meaning "There's no Next", much toil and discussion can be avoided about 'absolutes' such as "advanced" and "hobby", "myths" and "truths".Have already pointed out that freudtool.com has this order for "Which Saw Blade do I need?"Step1: "What Type of Saw is this blade for?", followed by:Step2: "What kind of material are you cutting?"This does not mean that there are no 'more steps' or questions in real life applications and decissions.For instance "How much do you want to spend?" is not there.Neither is there what you are questioning: "What is your background?"From reading Charles' comments, anyone can realize that even the most experienced and knowledgeable could walk home with a blade that does not fit the equipment.Not meaning that anyone does it, but rather wishing that it don't happen, for reasons that ought to be well understood without words.-mbl-
Edited 3/24/2005 12:25 pm ET by mbl
All,
It seems like this thread has been pretty much flogged and the only beenfit I can see to contuing it is for some folks trying awfully hard to right. IMHO, I think Jamie's orginal question has been answered.
Doug
Yes, my original question has been answered. Thank heavens, LOL! The thread can continue if people want to duke-it-out over who's right, that's OK with me. Personally, I think MLB has entered the discussion from Far Left Field. As long as he's on the infield, I have no problem with us all piling on, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Personally, I think MLB has entered the discussion from Far Left Field. As long as he's on the infield, I have no problem with us all piling on, LOL!
-Forest Girl-
-------------On a personal basis:1. Don't know any thing about baseball
2. 'MLB' is not the initials' order; B is before L.
3. Am happy that your question was answeredBest wishes.-mbl-
"MLB" was a Freudian slip on my part, I'm sure. Eager for the current season to get underway.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ah,so you have a problem with Freud,try Forrest.:-)
May we all be free from slips,
no matter what the brand.-mbl-
Agreed.
Sometimes I am a sucker for lost causes.
M R
Edited 3/24/2005 4:28 pm ET by Woodwiz
MLB, Charles fortunately filled in the details while I was gone yesterday. As to "(which amounts to "by equipment first")" he confirmed that this is pretty much a data-base-search-driven thing. If you had their General Product Catalog, as I do, you would see that the blades are grouped by purpose not by machine. They use icons in the upper corners of the pages to indicate which machines the blades are OK to use on.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have a 1960 or so 12" (I think it is 12 inch) I'd go to the shop to look but cold out there..
I never knew there was a different blade you should used.. I just got a 12" I liked and used it..
RAS saw that is.. geeee AND GO..
Edited 3/24/2005 2:35 am ET by Will George
Edited 3/24/2005 2:36 am ET by Will George
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