I’m wanting to get a new table saw blade. After looking at the price of the good ones I think I’d like to get a good multipurpose one for the time being until I can get more specific ones.
What do you all use? I’m thinking along the lines of the Forrest Woodworker II.
Thanks,
Michael
Replies
I have a WWII Thin Kerf and love it. It is by far the best blade in my small one man shop.
Steve - in Northern California
I'll second that one. I've got a rip blade, a Freud 60 tooth, and the WWII. The WWII rips with less tooth marks than the rip blade, and crosscuts slightly better than the 60-tooth (though it took a 20-power microscope to see the difference). I still use the rip blade for rough lumber and when I have alot of ripping to do, as it's so much cheaper.
--Gerry
Steve,
A couple of questions about the WWII blade...
- Why the thin kerf? Would this be better for me since I have the Ridgid benchtop saw?
- Do you use, or need, a blade stiffener (sp)?
- Where is the best place/price to get one?
Thanks,
Michael
Michael, A thin kerf blade is supposed to burn less and run cooler because it is not taking as big of a bite. I don't know how much truth there is to that. You do save 1/32" of wood when you cut. I do use stabilizers on the blade but I'm not sure if it really needs them or not. I didn't see any great improvement. As for price, shop around. If you buy one off the internet you may be able to avoid taxes but make sure you add in the shipping when your price shopping. I got mine at Woodcraft.Steve - in Northern California
Thanks for the input. I asked about the blade stiffener because I vaguely remember reading that people with benchtop saws should use thin kerf blades with sfiffeners.
Michael
Yes and in fact, Forest does have them and recommend them for their thin kerf blades. I have a set of Systimatics on mine, they were cheaper and the store had them in stock when I was there. I have a funny feeling that the thin kerf blade may transfer vibrations from other sources better than a standard 1/8" kerf blade. Just a guess. My saw is so dialed in that I have very little vibration and maybe this is why I didn't see any difference.
As with any saw, a blade may not improve your cuts at all if everything around it is out of whack.
Steve - in Northern California
How true. My saw is set up pretty well, at least to the best of my novice ability. I'm going to be cutting up some nice quartersawn white oak and I want to get a better blade than the stock one I currently have, which cuts okay.
Michael
Steve,
How would you describe the saw marks on your rips?
The reason I'm asking is that I have two old Sears blades called Mach II's that have very agressive rake angles that are out of production and which I had trued up by a very good saw smith. They'll cut almost mark free if I feed properly. I was told by the smith that the trick to straight running is getting the teeth set exactly right. Plus he dynamically balances the blades. Well, these blades are on their last sharpening before the carbide disappears and I gotta bite the bullet and replace them after about five years.
But, I have my doubts about whether thin kerfs will distort under heavy load. I do a lot of resawing on my 5 hp table saw which will tear up a blade before it slows down the motor. What do you think, will your blade distort under load or should it only be used for lighter work? Thanks.
DaVE
I may be buying a new blade as well, and while the thin kerf blades do sound nice, I seem to recall reading somewhere that they may not work with a spitter. Or, perhaps more accurately, the splitter may not work properly with a thin kerf blade. Am I on the right track here, or am I making this all up?
Mic your splitter to see if it will accomadate thin kerf. I have made a splitters for both normal and thin kerfs as I'm a machinery nut. I have a tendency to modify all my power tools to get them where I consider they need to be. Fortunately, I have access to facilties to do so. Hey, your thinking! In most cases that will eliminate numerous problems before they occur..
Have a good day
Sarge.
With the Forrest II I can get a almost glassy looking rip with soft woods. With hardwoods I get a very clean cut but I know my saw well and thats a big part of it. The blade will compensate a little for lack of skill but it won't do it all for you. You still have to know what feed rates are correct for different woods and saw alignment is probably the one thing that will help the most. Nice part about the later is that its virtually free.
A lot of people complain that a 1 1/2 hp motor on a contractors saw is not sufficent. I dont disagree with that but I can make a 1 1/2 hp motor do a lot more than one might think simply because my saw is tuned correctly. I routinely rip 8/4 red and white oak and I don't have any of the problems that others complain about. I have a set of stiffners on my saw but I did not notice a huge difference in the cut. My Jet Contractors saw came with large steel flanges on the Arbor and my stiffners are only about 1" larger. There are larger stiffners but one must be concious of the fact that the larger stiffners also mean less depth of cut.
Now lets talk woodworking - Use a blade designed for the job at hand. The Forrest II is a combo blade. Its a little of this and a little of that and does a great job but it is not a dedicated Rip Cut blade nor a dedicated Cross Cut blade. The idea behind a combo blade is that you can use it for both without changing blades and get acceptable results. It is most convienient when used on job sites and saves a lot of time. In the shop, take the time to change the blades, use a jointer, and you'll have far better results. The Forrest has taken the combo blade to a new level but you pay for it. Its still a combo blade no matter what the price or how good anyone says it cuts.Steve - in Northern California
Thanks, Steve,
I think I'll give your blade a try. Man, I hate changing blades. I do far more ripping than crosscut so I prefer to stay with a combo. I can plane end grain smooth faster than changing blades, so why bother?
It's impossible to get a good cut with any blade with teeth that are unequally ground, and many blades come out of the package with teeth that are off. I've dialed them and found teeth off up to .005. There are serveral other tooth angle factors that if off, will cause the blade to pull to one side or another, so if I'm trying to rip veneers, the strips will come out crooked every time, no matter what I do. I talked this over with my blade smith and he said, "send me the damn thing, I'll fix it." And he did.
Also, can anyone recommend a good dedicated rip blade. Never had one and seems all I can find is combos.
I've found that when I rip with a rip cut blade I'm rarely looking for a high quality cut, just a straight one. I'm actually still using the 28 tooth Jet blade that came with my saw when I bought it. If I need a smooth rip cut, I leave the WWII in the saw and go at it but its a much slower cut rate. I know that goes against what I said earlier to some extent but I have to admit that's what I do.
I guess I sort of consider the table saw as a ball park tool. Get me close, (the closer the better), and I'll do the rest with the jointer, hand plane and the surface planer. Fortunately, I have those tools to fall back on but they are not excuses for a ill tuned saw or a dull junk blade.
The Forest WWII on a well tuned saw with a competent operator is capable of cutting rips that are glue ready. I know, I did it several times before I got my jointer. I didn't learn to do it over night, it took a lot of practice.Steve - in Northern California
I was reading the comments between you and Steve about thin kerfs and blade stiffners. Steve was correct about thin kerfs taking a smaller bite. If you have under a 3 HP motor thin kerfs reduce the friction and help prevent bogging, especialy when cutting hardwoods. That oak you mentioned is a load on a 1 1/2 HP. You might also consider a laser cut blade with helps disapate heat build-up evenly over the blade instead of mostly the outer portion. I use Freuds in teflon coat as the teflon also helps reduce friction. You need to cheat all you can to get a smaller motor to do a big job. I cannot comment on Forrest as I've never used one. I have a 24 tooth rip, 50 tooth combo, 60 tooth crosscut and a 80 tooth fine crosscut. I can blades as I need a particular one as my patience level is high.
Concerning the stiffner..Yes, by all means!! A steel wheel on your car flexs when you hit a pothole. You can,t see it do it; but it does. Do you think that a 10 inch thin piece of metal turning over 4000 RPM won't when meeting oak? Rap the oak with your bare knuckles and see if it gives. The stiffner helps eliminate flex. Whenever we deviate from square we get sloppy results. Been there-Done that!! Hope this will help enlighten as you decide.. Much Luck..
Sarge..
Sarge,
Thanks for the info. I'll check out the Freud blade too. I also think I'll go with the blade stiffeners. Can't hurt.
Also, the Ridgid benchtop tablesaw is a 15 amp motor. I'm not sure how that translates to horsepower but it does cut pretty nice, so long as I don't try and rip 8/4 stock 6' long.
Michael
Depending on how your armature is wound it rates aproximately 1 1/2 HP which is plenty if you read Steve's latest post. Read his post several times. He is on target. The 1 1/2 HP can do a lot more than it's given credit for if you follow his advice. My first saw in 1972 was a Shopmate mounted underneath a 2 x 4 sheet of plywood with a rectangular opening cut for the blade. Fence was home-made an wasn't much I couldn't do with it accurately with the proper set-up. I still use 1 1/2 HP as it does 95% of what a bigger horse will do. They will just do it with less effort and not cough if run continuously all day long. Industrial strength.
None mentioned possibility of blade distortion on his 5 HP if he went to a TK blade. He doesn't need a TK. His 5 HP will go anywhere he needs to go with a 1/8th..Hey, if he runs into anything he can't handle with a standard blade he needs to load it up and take it to the sawmill! BRAVO STEVE! Sarge..
Well, I just picked up my new WWII thin kerf blade. I'm heading down to the basement tonight or tomorrow and see how it cuts. I also got a stiffener too. Can't hurt.
Thanks all for the info.
Michael
At the risk of causing a riot here, I'm going to wave the terminology flag: a blade stiffener and blade stabilizers are not the same thing, though the terms are often interchanged.
Stabilizers come in pairs, used one on either side of the blade. A stiffener is a single large disk that goes between the stock arbor washer and the blade. Stabilizers will position the blade at a different place on the arbor than it has "normally" occupied, so various things need to be adjusted to compensate (splitter, zero-clearance inserts, for examples). A stiffener placed on the washer side of the blade will not create these differences.
OK, I'm gonna go to bed and pull the covers up, just call me chicken!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Interesting point and quite true I might add. Stiffener's also have a little problem of their own in that they decrease the depth of cut. My personal preference is the use of stabilizers. It may not be true, but I think the fact that they are equal on both sides of the blade makes more sense. I will use the same set on all of my blades which will eventually eliminate the adjustment problems.
You are correct. I believe I said I used a stiffener, if not, I stand corrected. I use the single disk on the outside of the blade. One thing I can tell you is that the first time I started the saw, with the new blade and stiffener, I did notice a reduction in noise and vibration, even on a benchtop saw.
Michael
Hi Michael, my understanding is that either of the devices is likely to improve the vibration situation (which would also affect noise, yes?). When I finally go out and get a new dedicated ripping blade, I may very well get a stiffener, just to see wha' happens. My Jet contractor's saw is kinda noisy. Also need to get the link-type belt someday. Happy sawing (or sawring, as my British friend says)!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I did notice that it was quieter, which is a plus with a benchtop saw. I'm sure it was due to the stiffener on the thin kerf blade.
I also tuned the table saw to the best of my ability, as I'm new to this stuff, and it seems to cut great.
Michael
Good job! "Tuning to the best of [one's] ability should always be the first step before buying new blades and gizmo's. I hope I have some $$ left over at the end of the weekend for a new blade -- am building a firewood-storage bin for the winter, and it's eatin' me alive! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
BADOYN:
Do you have your table-top mounted to something or do you just sit it on top of a bench, etc.? Not sure if you have to take it daily to job or what. Also, is the bottom of your Ridgid open and is the motor mounted inboard or out-board? There's a reason I ask if you decide to reply. You might be able to tweak it a little more and reduce sawdust escape if the answers are what I think they are. Seen your saw Depot many times but haven't examined closely.
Glad you are enjoying your blade. These folks have put me on the Forrest band-wagon.
Keep the enthusiasm flowing..
Sarge..
Well, my world war II arrived yesterday. It does rip just a tad smoother with a slower feed rate, but is definitely better on the cross cut mode where my aggressive tooth angle blades made moderate splinters. I have to look pretty close to see the marks. I measured them at 0.001-0.003, no stiffeners used. Altogether a good combo blade in my view, but very pricey. It's got enough carbide that it should last ten years, so that comes to $10 a year, whereas my cheap blades went through two sharpenings and that's it.
Dave of Fla.
I have my saw mounted to the Ridgid roller stand. It's open at the bottom and it does drop some dust. It also has the motor on the inside. I'm thinking of building a stand of the sort I saw in a Woodsmith magazine (#107 I believe) that has storage and a catch drawer for the drop dust. Also, I'm going to cover some of the openings in the base of the saw with cardboard at first to see if that helps too. I'm in a basement shop and I clean up after every time I'm down there, but I'd like to limit the saw sawdust spray if I can.
Michael
BADOYN:
You done stole my thunder! Good thinking.. I have a cabinet saw that is, well; shall we say a hybrid. I actually got components from 3 saws that got thrown out and ones I've made in my American Eagle. The lettering comes from stick-on decals and the saw is candy-apple red, white and blue. Ha!Enough of my patriotic rambling.
I built a cabinet that's top aligns with the base of the saw. I used a piece of flat rubber garage door w/strip to act as a shock absorber to help eliminate vibes. The base is heavy and the front has a door with concealed hinges so I can swing it open. Can easily vacuum interior and pick up arbor nut if I accidentally drop it changing blades. Makes it convenient to get to enclosed motor and components.
Got a shop vac attached to dust port. Any sawdust that falls into cabinet base you open the front door and catch it quickly with a shop vac at end of day. I've eliminated about 95% of the sawdust. The only time I get much escape is with a non-thru cut.
My shop is a dedicated garage. Got the saw sitting 4 1/2 ft back from the door so I can clear 4 x 8 sheets. I can also rip up to 14 feet if necessary as I just open door and run it out on the driveway. Fortunately, I also have a 1/2 basement. Got the storage rack back there with some low boy assembly tables. Yes, sawdust in the basement is a problem. It's so fine it will get through AC filter and any cracks in doorways up-stairs. That's why I put shop in garage and storage in the basement. Use your head with what you got! I resisted building anything for a year so I could lay out what I had to work with, wire and build all my work-benches and assembly tables. I think the planning and hard work paid off. At the end of the day I take a leaf blower and start in back of shop with both garage doors open and just blow it all out in the yard.
These are just suggestions. I'm certainly no expert. Hopefully you might have found an idea that might benefit your situation. If not, nothing has been lost. Just use common-sense. That eliminates most problems b4 they occur! Good luck with your quest and thumbs-up for your enthusiasm. Drop a line not if; but when you hit pay-dirt! I have a feeling you will...
Sarge..
Thanks for the kind words and suggestions.
I'm only a hobbiest (and just turned 40) and I'm getting started with the tools I need. Since I have limited space in the basement, all my tools (table saw, planer, and jointer) are on moveable bases. It helps to keep it somewhat tidy. I do want to eliminate most of the sawdust if possible. I'm pretty religious about using the shop vac hooked to all my machines and cleaning up at the end of the day to keep the dust out of the house. Heck, since our house is 94 years old, I just tell my wife that dust is what to expect in an old house, not from my tools. :o)
Michael
FG:
Right on! Stabalizers are larger than the original arbor washers and do stiffen some. They are machined flatter to help reduce vibration. Arbor washers are usually cast and are usually not flat from the factory. Stiffners are larger and do just that. Yep, reduces depth of cut. Can take it off if you need that extra. Both serve a purpose. Agree about the riot! Perhaps a way to avoid one is to try both then decide for ourselves which one we feel gets the best results. If we feel that neither gets better results--just leave the factory arbor washers on and saw away.. The main point is just be glad we have the opportunity to have an individual choice.
Happy Woodworking..
Sarge.
May no longer be sold. This is a thin kerf blade although it doesn't state that on the pkg.
Sears/Craftsman 929241
Following is on the blade package - as advertising goes. what is written is quite accurate.
CONTROL-CUT BLADE for extremely smoth cross - cuts
BLADE FEATURES - 40 Carbide= tipped teeth have zero hook, are special high-low triple chip ground and have shallow gullets; for very smooth custs and blade stability, help keep blade from grabbing workpiece.
MATERIAL APPLICATIONS - Solid woods-hard or soft, furniture stock, plywood, plastics, laminates, Formica hardboard, Masonite. Not for use on ferrous metals or masonry.
PROJECT EXAMPLES - Furniture - cabinet work, countertops, interior trim - door, window, stair, baseboard, mouldings, paneling. Any finish carpentry work reequiring extremely smooth cross cuts.
...........................................
This is the same and only blade I use on a Unisaw. This one blade has been used on everything from wall studding to furniture to kitchen cabinets constructed from solid cherry, ( except for shelves and back). solid oak funiture, hard maple, pine, plywoods, walnut, plastics - you name it.
I tell you only about the various woods on which it has been used. I do not post this as a recommendation..... buy it - try it - and return if not satisfied - that is for you to decide. Personally, I will not use any other blade while I can buy this one.
I do use a blade stabilzer. Don"t know if it is needed because when cutting with it removed, I have noticed no difference in the cut. But then I am more of the "Norm" type than the "professional" type as to what I find acceptable.
For veneered plywood such as oak, cherry, walnut, I suggest that you place masking tape where you plan on the cross grain cut. The 1/32 and even thinner veneers used today make it virtually impossible to obtain a veneered crosscut without some tiny chipping. Masking or other tape, leaves for the most part an acceptable edge. When removing tape, to minimize tear out along the edge, pull toward the cut edge not straight up or away from the cut edge . For solid woods, I seldom use masking tape for a cross cut.
For my personal standards of acceptance, I have found this blade to equal and occasionally exceed the cross cutting low tear out ability of even a hollow ground plywood blade - and no longer use that type of blade.
It is a rather laid back innocuous blade to look at, what with it's thin kerf and wide spacing between teeth, and very low cut teeth. It looks like it might create a cut a wood worker would not want.
You be the judge - remember if Sears still carries them - they will refund you money if your not satisfied - nothing to loose!
Yeah, thats the one, called a Mach II. It's been modified several times and is still sold, but the Mach I was far better for ripping but it is discontinued. The mach II does better cross cuts but not so good rips. Plus, the teeth chip easily. I don't recommend it.
Dave of Florida
Take a look at the Forest Blade. I have tried a bunch over the years. Purchased a Forrest about 10 years for a 10" Delta Unisaw and have never taken it off except for dado blade. Rip, cross cut, hard, soft, chip board, melmine, Cortron and it still makes a clean cut on the thin surface of Cortron. Its the stuff cheap furniture is made of.
I built two large kitchens, remodeled three homes, cut all the trim, many many feet of MDF and its still sharp enough that it cuts clean, smooth and nearly zero tear out. Put a blade stabilizer on it.
I put one on my 12" Dewalt chop saw, have another on a 10" Radial arm. They are not cheap, but in the long run it is worth every dime.
Curt
first off, i am a perfectionist- while my woodworking experience is still fairly limited, i have a lot of experience in design, engineering (3 patents w/ 3 more in the works), machining and other art forms, especially super-detailed engraving and jewelry work. i don't do woodworking for $$ and never intend to, so time spent on a project is not terribly important to me-
having said that, i think that forrest blades are the best and CHEAPEST blades you can buy! i spend virtually no time fixing chip-out, sanding or jointing edges- or cutting oversize to allow for it, shooting miters to fit, patching around dadoes (their dado-king RULES!) in veneer plywood, etc, etc, etc. in the case of the WWII, time saved switching blades when the tasks are varied- not production run. i can't speak to their durability because of my relatively low usage, but i've heard time and again it is excellent, so while their sharpening service is not the cheapest around (only the best) you won't need it nearly as often. if your time (and nerves) are worth anything to you professionally or personally, forrest blades are among man's greatest labor-saving inventions. do the math- is it more important to save $50 once on a blade, or quite possibly dozens of hours of your time over the life of the blade? (also, you're paying for 100% cutting tool- no coatings, chrome plating, fancy expansion slots, etc- hell, they don't even polish them. they actually hear the occasional complaint that their blades are not very well finished!) on the subject of coatings, the plate itself should virtually never touch the wood due to the wider carbide teeth- resin build-up is caused by the vaporization of the liquid components of the wood during cutting and the mist settles on other surfaces- especially hot ones like the blade- not from the plate actually rubbing against the wood itself like it does with a handsaw. okay, coatings make it easier to clean- you got me there.
if you can splurge on more than one blade (you will never regret spending too much on a great tool, but will often regret, while using an inferior one, not spending enough) the best source is directly from the manfacturer because of the 2nd and 3rd blade discounts. (DISCLAIMER: I do not now, nor have ever been in the direct or indirect employ of the Forrest Mfg. Co. I just deeply appreciate those in this world who know how to do their jobs right. As woodworkers, we should all be able to relate to this.)
one other thing- and maybe someone has already mentioned this- thin kerfs work better on lighter saws because you're removing 25% less wood, doing 25% less work. it's like having about a fourth to a third more horsepower. but definitely use a stiffener.
mitch
Mitch:
I also delve into engineering and machining. I've had a passion for w/w 30 years this Oct. and a love of the afore-mentioned almost as long. I mentioned in previous post I use Freuds. I have no problems with them as I take time to match proper blade to situation. After the info I gathered here I will probaly replace with Forrest when I kill one. I can agree with you the Forrest Super Dado is a step above the Super from Freud. The Freud is excellent; but a step below.
You mentioned coating. Doesn't matter cause blade is thinner than teeth. In a perfect world yes, but; if you have worked a lot to thicker hardwoods like ash and hickory the world becomes slightly distorted. So does your blade. I believe in engineering we call it deflection. If you have absolutely no rub marks below your teeth your theory is sound. Teflon reduces friction. Expansion slots..They will and do help disperse heat evenly to reduce friction and chance of over-heating and dis-tempering blade so those teeth don't get brittle. TK reduces bite. Agreed! Adds slight HP gain. Yep! We might add that re-wiring to 220v will give slight boast to HP and increase motor life.
These are all just slight gains that we small motor guys can take advantage of when we ocassionally get in over our head! Most won't notice they're so suttle; but, they help! I have no doubts as to the quality of Forrest after gathering info on this website. I'll buy it! But, can you imagine that already great blade with a few of these extra tricks up it's sleeve??
Yes, get the stiffner! And. there is a big difference between a stiffner and blade stabilizers. Stabalizer come as pair and replace arbor washers. Stiffners is usually about 4 inches dia. and only goes on 1 side between blade and arbor washer.
Happy Woodworking,Engineering and Machining..Sarge.
Well, I just got back from putting on my new Forrest WWII blade and stabilizer. What a difference! It's amazing how nice it cuts!
I have the benchtop Ridgid TS2400 table saw and I chose the thin kerf WWII and it feels like I have been given an extra horsepower because it's effortless in how it cuts.
I might buy an extra one to keep on hand because I don't think I'll use another blade, except a dado set, to do my woodworking.
Just wanted to let you all know.
Michael
Badoyn,
Do you find any difference with or without the stabilizer?
Rich
I haven't ran it without the stabilizer. There were enough suggestions from others about having a thin kerf with a stabilizer that I put it on right away. I'm sure it can't be any better without it.
Michael
Just curious. It would be interesting to know.
Rich
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