My next project involves lots and lots of mortise and tenon joints, bit and small. In the past I’ve always cut some mortises by hand and others on my router table, and made all tenons on my radial arm saw (a wonderful tool for that purpose, by the way). But now that I’m going to have to make a lot of mortises, is it time to invest in a dedicated mortise machine, a slot mortiser, a Leigh M&T jig, or just gear up to get lots of practice cutting them by hand? All other things being equal, I like to stay away from router-based tools because of the noise, but that’s more of a guideline than a rule.
Once you get proficient at it, can you cut a 3/4 x 2 mortise in hardwood by hand in, say, 10 minutes?
Replies
I would recomment using templates or fixtures with a plunge router. It's faster that using a mortising machine. I have a dedicated mortising machine that I rarely use, I've found its easier and faster to use a plunge router.
Herb
Carrollton, TX
Mark,
Recently I cut about 12 morticies..much larger than your contemplating. I was amazed how fast the learning curve...not sure the final ones were 10 minutes each..but close. Also, taking a fostner bit to just the center (one plunge) made it a lot easier and faster...helped me set the depth and allowed speed in paring back to the line....I also used a 2" block to ensure I was paring perpendicular.
In the past I've used the plunge with a simple jig and the fense attachment in the workbench which is fast and clean.
Mark
I'll weigh in here on the side of a mortiser. I use a drill press attachemnt, only becuase I haven't yet found a dedicated one old enough for my current taste in tools. I find them quiet, neat, accurate, and quick. I'm sure a dedicated machine would only be a vast improvement.
Alan
I haven't yet found a dedicated one old enough for my current taste in tools
Check Ebay for an old Powermatic 400 maybe there will be one close to you. Big, old, heavy and foot operated. I found one a while back but between replacing the 3 phase motor and shipping I had to pass. Another great mortiser is a Wacco or someting like that. They're a serious production machine that uses solid foot shaped bits with teeth on the bottom that travels in an eliptical path. Hard to desribe unless you've seen one. Happy hunting.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
You can buy a General (not GI) that looks pretty old/beautiful, but it is pretty expensive. Actualy Grizzly has a solid cast pillar one that is pretty industrial looking, it is hard to find on their web page. Just keep looking, it cost about 1700, and isn't like the average base mounted unit as were reviewed in a recent FWW article.
Of course there are the older ones that don't have a drill, and just use foot power.
Mark-
I cut mortises mostly with a router, but I understand your aversion to the noise. That lets out the Leigh M&T jig, also.
I recommend against a mortising machine. I once had one, and it was a good one, but the best of them still leave a ragged sidewall, and the square bits are a nuisance to care for.
I have heard from those who use them that a slot mortiser is really the way to go. Add 50% to the cost of the Leigh M&T jig (without router), and you can get a new one from Rojek. But I imagine a clever buyer could find a good used one somewhere for less. They're nice and quiet.
What's wrong with Forstner-assisted hand mortising? I can't do it fast, but I'll bet with not much practice you could hit your mark of 10 minutes per mortise. It would give you lots of sharpening practice, too.
Mark,
If you don't mind spending a few bucks you might want to look at the multi router made by JDS. Versatile and accurate. I priced one out and with a router and templets it was over $3500 cdn. A little steep. I bought the Leigh jig.
Consider checking out FWW #141. The simplest version of a slot mortiser I've ever seen using drawer slides and a router. The next step up is the Laguna/Robland which uses a router but could be set up using a regular motor with some pillow blocks and a threaded shaft. For $500 it come with a mortising chuck. Basically it's the mortising unit that comes with the Robland combo machines. The Rojek slot mortiser is next price wise. I've made them with converted horizontal mills which can be sometimes had for scrap metal prices. If you look real hard you might find one with a collet system which means very little to modify except a converter as these are always three phase. Look at the Invicta FI-15 mortiser on http://www.exfactory.com under At $1,600 the Invicta is a nice unit and the JDS doesn't even make my wish list. Most all the shops near me have some kind of slot mortiser from the JDS to commercial units so I've seen them all first hand.
As always, terrific replies. Thank you.
Rick,
I am trying to find the slot mortising jig you mentioned via the magazine search. Do you know if there is an article I can get through the fine woodworking website? I do not have FWW 141 but I pay for the articles, etc ($499/month). Any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Buzzsaw
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Best
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=2639
Not as good
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspxid=24110
Plus you can buy the mortise tables from a combo machine from Robland or Minimax and make a standalone machine. You familiar with 80/20 stuff. Extrusions you can cobble up all sorts of stuff not cheap but they have an ebay garage sale site for leftover stuff from jobs.
American Woodworker had a slick router table made from steel rods and bronze bushings. Low budget but very accurate with lots of moving table possibilities and good for a mortiser. Have to find the issue # in my huge pile of info.
Thanks Rick. Cool stuff...I appreciate it!Regards,
Buzzsaw
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Lots, big, small ???
My last project with lots of M&T joints defined 'lots' for me at 420 (14 Stickley high back dining chairs in QSW Oak). I did them with a borrowed benchtop Delta HCM upon which I broke the rack gear when I put a cheater on the handle and I blew out the dampener. Next set of chairs will see a Powermatic 719 floor model HCM arriving at my shop.
In quantity, floating tenons lend themselves well to routers and horizontal boring machines. Traditional Blind M&T's (IMHO) take chisels, either ones you beat or hollow ones.
Consistency is key to large numbers unless you want to spend countless hours fitting M&T's:
Therefore I run the HCM bits tight, just short of squealing, and cool them with compressed air. The dime and quarter spacing methods just let the bit wander and scallop the mortise wall too much. If I burn up a couple of $35 bits on a $14,000 chair order I don't loose any sleep over it. I plunge them an 1/8" over depth so I don't have to clean up the bottom corners by hand.
Resist all temptation to clean-up the mortise walls with a chisel or consistency is gone.
Cut your tenons on a tablesaw with an upright type jig using 2 blades with spacers in between. Any operation where you flip the piece to cut tenons will create uneven tenon thicknesses and you're back to the hand work. I cut the shoulders first on the TS and cut a little bit (1/32" or less) overdepth. I use the outside blades from my dado set with old CD's for spacers and shim to a hand fit which I test in several mortises.
If you have a tight one a couple of whacks with a block plane while your dry fitting will do the trick. A Fein Multimaster works nicely here too.
Since I pre-finish I use 'Roo' Glue and I peg the key M&T's and haven't had one come back yet. Out the 420 M&T's 56 were thru mortises which I punched with the HCM and hand fit them which took as long or longer to fit as the other 364.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Which Roo glue do you use, the Roo wood glue or the Roo clear. Just wondering as I have seen it but have not tried it.
Scott T.
I use a Delta Mortiser. Once I have laid out the mortise on the wood, I transfer those measurements to a couple pieces of exact size scrap, and it generally takes me about 2-3 minutes to get the right bit in the mortiser, adjust the depth, and finally to adjust the placement.
I really like the machine and use it quite often.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
The Roo Clear that way if I miss a little bit of squeeze out it doesn't show up too much.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
"Consistency is key to large numbers unless you want to spend countless hours fitting M&T's:"I could not agree more, from experience. I have not experienced a loss of consistency cutting tenon cheeks with one blade, however. My jig has a very fine adjuster and my stock thicknesses are consistent. If I had a good dado set I might use your procedure. Either way can be made to work if one keeps his steps in order. Depending on the number of joints being made, one way may be faster than the other also.Your posting is praiseworthy.Cadiddlehopper
Mark,
I use a mortising attachment on a drill press. It works pretty well but comes with it's frustrations. Devising a way to holding down the piece, yet leave it free enough to move it easily is a never ending bother, for instance. I would expect that a dedicated machine that's carefully set up with a versital hold down would be better. I can't imagine a router being easier for the deep mortises I cut. My vote is for the dedicated mortiser. By the way, I've used one of those too, but it's been quite a while and I don't own one.
jdg
Morticers are far and away the fastest way of mortising. Like any power tool, they have their limitations. The bench ones will cut out square holes fast and neat, but on really big jobs, or with through mortices, the fact they top out at 1/2" chisel, and that there isn't a vise holding the piece, and therefore you have to blow away chips that get betweent he fence, is a frustration. The floor units with a moveable table deal with most of those problems, and bigger is better still...
There is a dimension missing with your question 3/4"x2". which is depth, which is length, and which is width. Also, how hard is the wood? Give me those numbers, and I will go out to the shop and tell you how long it takes.
Thank you for the response. I've never seen a dedicated mortiser operated. Do they leave a clean side of the mortise so you get a good glue bond, or do you have to clean it up with a chisel anyway? Do you have to sharpen the chisels often?
Botht he benchtop and bigger machines should leave a very neat side. i jsut screw the chisel in, and make a cut, if the edge is raged, I just eyeball a correction tot he chisel rotatoin, and usualy it is fine, though it can take a few more adjustements.
I haven't had to sharpen the chisels much so far, really not at all for mostly personal use I have the chinese chisels and they work well. I noticed Lee Valley is selling marples chisels with a special cutter to sharpen them.
Another critical adjustment is to make sure there is sufficient clearance between the auger and the lip of the chisel, otherwise there is a lot of smoke, and you can heat up the chisel very quickly which can ruin it's temper, and then the chisel will certianly loose it's edge. Too loose is if the auger cuts a seperate hole off to one side, find a happy medium within that range, say 1/16" down at least.
I use a rounter in a homemade jig designed and published by Woodsmith magazine. It's the ony mortise set-up that captures 99% of chips and the bits run so cool!
The Woodsmith company sells a kit for the required hardwarte if you are interested. This homemade jig sdoes the same thing as expensive horizontal machines.
don
Don,
I just searched the Woodsmith site and couldn't find a mortise jig for the router. Can you be more specific about the plans? Maybe a woodsmith part number or something?
Thanks,
Mike
Check out http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/fw_toc_141.asp
An excellent home-made slot mortiser for the DIYer.
Rick,
Thanks. I have that issue and have considered building a jig like that one. A previous post suggested another and I wanted to compare them before I started building.
Mike
I think you'll find the FWW one to be the best. I've seen most of the ones in the other magazines and they always seem to approach the mortises from over head which eliminates the ability to do mortises in both rail and stiles for loose tenons. See the Laguna site to compare how commercial slot mortisers are set up as a reference standard. I've used commercial chisel mortisers and chain mortisers. Horizontal slot mortisers are just too easy to use.
Thanks for the info. I think a few minor modifications to the FWW design might be an improvement. I've tried a couple of overhead jigs and have not been satisfied with ease of use. I have a benchtop hollow chisel mortiser that works reasonably well, but doesn't give as smooth a cut and the clamping mechanism is a bit of a pain.
Mike
Better hold-downs could be made and a tilt table feature would be nice to have for those angled mortises. The next step up would be a Laguna/Robland.
I cobbled together a front clamp on my benchtop mortiser yesterday as a test. No sliding tables, nothing fancy, but for the majority of 90 degree mortises it seems to work quite well. I kept the supplied hold down as well, so the combination of front clamp and hold-down seems to have soled the most annoying thing about the benchtop unit. I'm awaiting some info from Laguna on the Robland. It apparently uses a router in a multi-axis sliding table arrangement. It's $895 on their website. I may still spring for it instead of building the FWW jig.
Mike
I know the Laguna unit because I set it up for a friend. He made his own stand. A welder owed him a favor so it came out cheaper than buying theirs. I think a better stand could be designed. Also it comes with a mortise chuck because the unit is sold as an add on to the combo machines. You could forgo the router mounting plate and have a piece of shaft threaded, along with two pillow blocks, a pulley and a 1-1/2 hp 3450 rpm motor instead of a router. Would be a lot quieter and more similar in speed to commercial units which are 3,450 to 5,000 rpm. Your initial request was to stay away from routers anyway.
Thanks Rick. I've got a salesperson contact at Laguna. I'll check to see if they still include the mortise chuck. I would like to have one less screaming router in the shop.
Mike
Hello Mike
its shop notes issu 47 vol.8
Mortising Machine
I like Legacy wood working.
I can mortise in round,or square.
you can use templets,or not . it makes everything verry easy.
check it out.
C.A.G.
http:legacywoodworking .com
"and made all tenons on my radial arm saw (a wonderful tool for that purpose, by the way). "
Ditto, especially if you're doing variable sized tenons.
Sorry, I can't help you with the production side of things. Don't think I've never made anything that looks exactly like the plans or even like the last one I made.
I love the suprise of a really cool idea in wood.
Best of luck
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