I recently did a little shop work for a guy while he waited. I used a skill saw to give a flat edge to two pieces of walnut and planed the two pieces through a portable planer. They were large, so he gave me a hand manipulating the boards, clamping them down etc.
It took an hour to do this chore.
The question is how much should someone pay for a service like this. I had no idea what to charge him, so for the future jobs like this I have to get some advice from the experts at knots. I would appreciate some input please.
Thanks, Dave
Replies
Dave,
Sounds like it may be time to calculate your "shop rate" for occasions such as this.
I did a down-and-dirty calculation to come up with a break-even shop rate by adding all of my known costs (both direct and indirect expenses) for the prior year, grossing-up this number to account for known or anticipated increases, and dividing the total by 2,080 (the nominal number of hours worked in a standard year).
It helps to have a fairly accurate accounting of your annual expenses as a starting point. And, of course, if you're not working full time as a woodworker, you might want to use fewer than 1,080 hours to calculate your shop rate.
There are a number of sources available that talk about these kinds of calculations. I found it very useful to talk with several other local furniture and cabinet makers whose operations are comparable to mine as a rough way of testing whether my shop rate seemed reasonable.
What the break-even shop rate represents is the minimum hourly rate I need to charge in order to cover my known expenses - it doesn't provide a profit margin, which, while a horse of a different color, involves comparable calculations.
I hope this is the kind of information you were looking for,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Edited 3/29/2004 1:54 pm ET by jazzdogg
Jazzdogg, how about taking two weeks vacation a year? You deserve it, and then you could do the division in your head!
"...how about taking two weeks vacation a year?"
Vacations? Ever since I decided to switch careers and make sawdust full time, I feel as though I'm always on vacation! In my previous existence as a financial controller (can you tell? - 2,080 vs. 2,000 hours), vacations were few, far between, and very richly deserved. Now I feel as though I'm the luckiest man on earth because people willingly pay me to do what I truly love. When I take time away from working with wood, it's usually to attend trade shows or take classes related to woodworking.
Life is GREAT!-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Dave ,
Part of the answer to your question depends on whether you want to do jobs like you described or not ? Some feel those little jobs are an inconvenience and can cost a person more by stopping whatever you are working on to do them. Heres what some shops do , they have a hourly shop rate of $25 - $50 dollars an hour , with a minimum charge say $25 or what ever you feel comfortable with. This way the customer knows ahead of time he will be paying at least the minimum charge . This may discourage some folks so you can adjust the scale to fit your desires . I generally don't charge for making a cut or a pass with the router and such, goes a long way for good will , often times they will give your name out or call you when they have a real job .
good luck dusty
With a real planer and a real cutoff saw the job would take less than 15 minutes ...
Therein lies the rub. If you charge what your time is worth on jobs where you lack the best tools, you can get a bad reputation.
I don't bill for less than $500.
Dave I do a lot of work that usually has help of some sort or another from the client and I charge a hourly rate with or without it. If I have a helper than the time I spend on the job is less and therefore the overall cost is less. With that said sometimes it is easier to come up with a flat rate for small odds and ends than trying to figure out some sort of bill. I have screwed four pieces of board together to make a frame about 18" x 28" for outside project a client was doing and charged $40CDN to do it. They walked away happy and I was $40 bucks richer four 15 minutes worth of work. I also look at small stuff within reason to be a sort of way of showing people that I do this for the love of it and I want your repeat business on bigger ticket items.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Good will and favors are great, as noted. So are small craft gifts to neighbors and charities.
When other woodworkers have shared their cost data with me, it usually comes to about $40 per hour to break even in an average solo shop - it would be more per hour (but less total time) in a highly sophisticated shop.
I am just starting the transition from hobby to possible retirement job. I have been using that $40 rate times the time it should have taken me. For example, I can whip out a raised panel door pretty fast now, but the first few times, I spent many hours on each. Given this method of calculating, I have been competitive and earned some nice commissions, even though as I am learning, the actual hourly rate is sometimes pretty low.
________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
Lot's of folks have to pay big bucks for their "education", you're getting paid, at least small bucks as you learn. That's a good thing!! LOL
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
When I was doing shop stuff for walk-in trade, we had an A rate and a B rate, of $60/hr for the A and $40/hr for the B. Whether someone got the A or B rate was determined by the type of car he or she drove up in.
I add $5(US) shop overhead for each hour of labor, based on 6 hours use per day for 15 days a month.
The way I arrive at this was to divide the expected life of a tool (this ranged from 48 months for a cabinet saw (which is way low) to 24 months on sanders, drills, etc.) into the replacement cost of the tool. This gave me the monthly cost which I then reduced to an hourly coast based on the 6 hour/15 day formula.
I did not include all the little stuff (planes, chisels, etc.,) because I already owned them and they should last forever. I did add a $1000 per year miscellaneous item to cover supplies like brads, glue, etc. And I added $3 per day electricity.
If I need to purchase a tool or major supply, such as a specialty router bit, for a job, I usually include the full cost of that item in the job unless I think it can be used for other jobs, in which case I charge the first job 50% of the cost of the item and put the rest into miscellaneous.
Although my shop is in my house I do not include those costs because they recur whether I'm making sawdust or not.
This may not be a perfect approach but it is a start. I track all expenses (easy because I buy from only a few sources) and revisit the formula every 6 months. I also make sure that money goes into the "shop account" rather than my income to make sure I'm accruing mony to replace stuff. That's the whole point, you know!
I get alot of neighbors, aquaintances, etc. stopping by for "while you wait" piece work.
I usually mention up front that I charge $30/hour shop time on "real jobs". That said, I usually tell them "no charge" when I'm done if it took less than an hour.
Invariably, they offer more than $30, for which I thank them, tell them it will buy me a case of beer and ask them if they want one (assuming it's at least late enough for a liquid lunch).
These folks ALWAYS come back to me when they decide to commission furniture or cabinetry and, since I operate a sawmill, the hobbyists that just didn't have a big enough planer, bandsaw, etc. always end up buying some wood too!
Next time give him $20 and sent him somewhere else. That is probably what it cost you to stop, move your other work out of the way, do the labor, clean up the mess, spend time posting on how much to charge, listen to his problems, and explain to him why your shop rate is so high. You get the point.
No trying to be harsh. It's sort of a standing joke between me and some woodworking buddies. One one of them sent a guy to my shop and told him I can fix anything and I don't charge as much as he does.
Pay-back was a &itch
Sorry, I grew up on Sesame Street and I never saw Bob sending anyone to someone else.
If you shuffle someone off on a small job, they ain't gonna come back to you for the biggun.
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