I was over at a relative-to-be for the shower of my oldest daughter, rather than sitting around with a bunch of cackling women it was suggested (and I jumped at it) I go down and speak to well,….. let’s call him Mr. X (no sense in starting a family feud)
Any way we exchanged pleseantries, I informed him of my escape from the hen house above and asked about his current wood working project.
( a bookcase) any way during the chatting he apparently misread a measurement and made one of the shelfs a little short.
I chimed up and told him since he was going to cover the edge with banding to simply make one shelf’s dado cut a little less deep to compensate.. nobody would ever know!
The look was as if I’d asked to sleep with his wife. amazing disgust! and in a loud voice he announced, I don’t cheat and especially not on my hobby!
So did I cross a line?
is hidding a mistake cheating?
Replies
If it is, the FBI would have taken me away a long time ago.
People are if nothing else unpredictably odd.
No, we all have to get out of cock-ups. My last one was in 1986. Haven't made one since. Everything goes perfectly and it's all hunky-dory.
Obviously the man is just a beginner, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
My guess is your future son in law who must know you are a wood a holic (and I use the term endearingly) was perhaps trying to impress you with his perhaps falsetto perfectionism values .
As you do , I also have a background in sales , you know when you get to that certain spot in your closing when you need to stop talking ? I think that was one of those moments when saying nothing could have accomplished more .
I don't know maybe he is an accomplished woodworker but probably not . Imo no lines were crossed by offering an option to fix a mistake .
Mistakes are a fact of life out there in the real world , it's amazing how many ways there are to screw up , and equally amazing is how many ways to fix or overcome problems there are .
If we don't make any mistakes , then we don't learn .
regards dusty
" how good we are is how good we fix our mistakes"
Edited 7/13/2007 3:40 pm ET by oldusty
"The look was as if I'd asked to sleep with his wife. amazing disgust! and in a loud voice he announced, I don't cheat and especially not on my hobby!"
You gotta be kidding me.... Hiding ones mistakes is one the best measures for evaluating your skill level...... I'm actually upset he would say that! What does he do for a living? Insurance Fraud Investigator or work for the IRS
Did you ask him if he wanted your opinion? Not everyone welcomes unsolicited advice.
The sign in my shop reads: "I don't make mistakes, I make variations." During the course I took with Marc Adams at his school, he spent one evening discussing how to deal with woodworking mistakes. The last item on the list was not to worry about it since you would be the only one who really knows about it. Sounds like your future in-law was trying to establish himself as the alpha male as soon as possible. I would be careful never to show him any of your work since I am sure he will be quick to tell you about all of your mistakes and how to do them better.
To paraphrase some invaluable advice I once got "Everyone makes mistakes. The good ones know how to recover. "
No, I don't think you crossed a line. Maybe he was just stressed about what was going on up in the henhouse, using his time in the shop as a last ditch effort to maintain some control over his life.
Frenchy, I've always said that I could do great work, but there are three things that the pros have one me:
1. They are faster
2. They know how to cover their mistakes
3. They get paid
Knowing how to cover your mistakes is a virtue, one that Mr. X apparently still has to learn. I've gotten pretty good at covering mine too -- my fault is pointing them out to people: "It would have been perfect has I just not mistakenly done this ...."
Woody
You know, I don't even really see that as a "mistake." If when completed, the case will be as strong and attractive as if the shelf had been cut as orginally intended, where is the mistake? I suppose he'll need to adjust a router or TS setting to make a slighly shallower dado or two, thus adding a slight bit of extra time to completing the project, but the end product is not affected by the difference - hence not a mistake in any real sense.
Frenchy,
That interlocuter of yourn needs to read some anthropology and some evolutionary psychology. One of our greatest human skills is the ability to lie, dissemble and otherwise employ the purposeful rhetoric of "economy with the truth", in order to persuade, influence and otherwise politic with our fellows. Without this skill we would all be at war with everyone else because we had to be honest with them. Honesty often gets their goat.
Rather, we lie to survive (and prosper). This is true when it comes to the practicalities, such as making furniture - a process that must deal with the realities of our less than 100% human efficiency/skill and the naughty nature of wood et al.
Also, the best strategy for successful lying is to first lie to (and convince) yourself. This means that when you tell the lie to the interlocutors, you will have come to believe it is the truth. Therefore you will be doubly convincing, with body-language as well as rhetoric.
With the furniture, we must convince ourselves that a fixed mistake is either a new design detail or a perfectly legitimate workaround. Then it becomes true.
Of course, one may be idelogical instead and sacrifice both oneself and/or everyone else to some "truth" or other. We will have to burn many of our pieces when we get gaps in the DTs or a blemish in the finish.
"Why did that man shoot you Paw"!?
"I had to tell him like it is, son (croak)".
Lataxe, all too human
Edited 7/14/2007 5:02 am ET by Lataxe
Frenchy, I'd say he was annoyed to make a mistake whilst you were there.
And then you had more experience on how to cover up than he had.He surly has a lot to learn. You should have said to him, If thats the way you are going to react I'd better not say anything about the other one,that would keep him guessing for some time. Rgds. Boysie Slan Leat
frenchy
I didn't read all the posts in the thread, so forgive my possible redundance. The ability to fix or hide one's mistakes is a true measure, and often the difference between making money or pi$$ing against the wind. "Professional cover-up" is the measure that seperates the sweat from the s...................
Jeff
Hi frenchy
I'm curious as to your response to his admonishment about cheating on his hobby and your kind offer to help. If he's really a man he will reflect on his response to you and apologize.
We all have our minds on something and may respond in an unhospitable manner. Real folks reflect later and realize their response might not have been appropriate.
I would suggest to give it some time.
If his response indicates his true devotion to his hobby, the end result should work out for both of you.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Sounds to me like the response of a teenager. I'm guessing (hoping) the kid is in his very early 20s. Certainly too immature to be getting married anyway...
MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
On what would he be cheating? his original project plan?
Good project management allows for contingencies. Isn't throwing out the miscut piece and replacing it with another also cheating since it also conceals his mistake? maybe he needs to throw out the whole piece.
In his analogy, the miscut is the real equivalent of cheating, not the cover-up. By the wife-cheating standard, he needs to confess his error to his Mrs. and promise never to miscut again.
MaxYak,
nah his father!
At my fourth of July party I was asked to give a tour of my shop.
While there, a husband of a friend asked what was it I made in this shop.
The first thing that came to mind was ALOT OF MISTAKES!
Bob, He took the piece that he cut short and cut it in half to fit into the garbage can. I smiled and said, I see you're busy and I won't bother you and quietly left for home..
Great solution!!Ray
Bruce, you've got it. I've been telling my buds in the carousel horse carving shop that every mistake is a design opportunity. With a range of skills among a half dozen or so carvers, e. coli happens when mallets get swung. These ponies would get boring if we all carved as well as we wish we could.
BJ
Gardening, cooking and woodworking in South'n Murlyn'
Edited 7/15/2007 6:00 pm ET by BeeJay
frenchy,
I probably wouldn't have been as tactful as you were. Smart move.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Frenchy, few items here bother me, this one does. This guy could be a time bomb . What is his sense of value, joy of making or joy in life? What are his safety valves if he has no tolerence for the imperfect? Lucky for your kin, the son usually is the inverse of the father. I would give him nothing but smiles and platitudes -from a distance and hope for the best. Good luck,Paddy.
BTW, he would love me. If I cut a board short, he would first hear several new words that he couldn't use in church(possibly more in one or more languages, depending on the cost of the wood). If it can be redesigned in a workman manner fine . If not it becomes spare stock or fine splits for starting the Sentry stove on a cold evening. Go get another board-get over it, life is too short..pfh
I want to weigh in here with a different point of view. Could it be that this gentleman did not want company while he was working? We all have encumberances on our time and maybe he was trying to get as much out of his time as he could for the amount he had at hand. In comes a visitor (we've all had them). This guy tries to keep working along with the gabbing (one sided or two). A mistake happened, and his response was towards the visitor, saying "I've had enough of your visit, right or wrong I'm not listening to you". The response, as illogical as it was, was his way of saying "I've had enough of your visit".
Put yourself in this guy's shoes for a moment. Maybe I misread the original poster's message, but personally I value my shop time and I prefer my shop time to be alone, unless one of my daughters happen to be there.
T.Z.
36847.1
Mistakes are an unavoidable part of woodworking. One of the great joys of wooding involves the problem solving process to build a project. Fixing mistakes can be the ultimate challenge to your woodworking skills and ingenuity. Some of my most satisfying moments in woodworking have involved the fixing of some very stupid mistakes.
Tony,
Or as my dad used to say, "G-dd-mmit, get the h-ll out of my way! Can't you see I'm busy?!!
Tact wasn't one of his strong points...
Ray
TZ, TRUE, that could be the case but only our poster can define that. He may not be very skilled and shy of folks in the shop. I can have a neighbor or two or three show up any late afternoon as they know the shop fridge is full of beer(they never come empty handed) and if I have ate enough sawdust for the day the power shuts off and we sit on the saw benches/plaster pail seats and have a few beers. If I feel cute I just got a little help for the back side of the BS or TS with some long heavy stock, the beer comes later. Paddy
Indeed; we've only heard one small portion of this story; we have NOT heard whatever the future in-law may have been told about his guest, either. So there is no way we can understand what he was thinking.
It's entirely possible that he simply wanted to be left alone to enjoy his hobby. Perhaps he liked to work in silence, without any opinions offered from the peanut gallery, and without anyone watching him. Some people view their hobbies as solitary relaxation, not group social events.
On the other hand, some people, when they offer 'helpful advice' come across as patronizing, annoying, and a PITA. I have a large family, we can be any of those. When I'm doing a project that requires multiple bodies, like rebuilding a deck, I love having my brothers there. But when I'm doing something that takes thought and care by myself, I want to be alone.
We don't know the whole story, so there's not much point in venturing any opinions.
If he had wanted to be alone, he could have said something to that effect. I don't like people around when I'm using power tools and if anyone ever surprises me while I'm actually cutting something, they're getting flying lessons but I would at least not be the way the other guy was. We can't get into his head, so we'll never know why he said this unless he comes here and explains himself. He could have said something like, "I'd rather not have company/an audience/anyone around while I'm working here". I saw a sign at the garage of someone I know, who does body work and paint on cars. It said "Have a nice day- somewhere else!".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Frenchy:
Of course you crossed the line!
By plunging in about his mistake first and how to rectify it, you missed the opportunity to discuss potential finishes for the piece, and, wait for it…
SHELLAC!
After a glorious exposition of the ease of applying 1001 thin coats just slopped on with a household mop, you could have gone on and helped him get some cocobolo at 3 cents a board foot.
Just think of the wasted opportunity – all of the persuasion and none of the typing.
I hope that next time you will pause and consider how best to exploit such an opportunity!
What were you thinking, man?
Yours playfully,
Hastings
Edited 7/13/2007 11:40 pm ET by Hastings
It's been said here before, "Mistakes are disign opportunities"
Opportunity knocks often.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Perhaps he is feeling a bit inadequate, after all...he has seen your house and "collection" of wood pieces...um parts...scraps? Gosh, don't tell him what you paid for it! Mistakes are made, you either live with them or start over, which is more fun?
Donkey
Covering mistakes = cheating??? Never. If it is, I've been cheating on every piece of woodworking that I've done. Even the third graders that I teach know that we learn more from our mistakes than we do if everything it "perfect." If he doesn't "cheat" at his hobby I'd be worried about where in his life that he does cheat.
If there is one thing I know I can count on, it's that on pretty much every project I am going to screw something up. The real question is how bad. All I know is, if I waited untiil I got it perfect, I'd never get anything done and I would be very hungry indeed!
I, of course, cannot speak for others in this regard.
--Dan
You will never see any mistakes on my works.
If you do...You looking too closely and I'll have to ask you to step back.
Good Lord! Mistakes are the only thing I make in my shop. I have two of them in my house as we "speak". One's holding up my mirowave (it was suppose to be an end table). The other is next to the sofa with an "arts and abstract" lamp on it (it was suppose to be a mirowave stand).
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
So, ya pizzed him off too, eh? Just kidding.
He doesn't cheat in his hobby but he's perfectly willing to waste a good piece of wood? What a bozo! Sounds like he wants you to think he's perfect, and by association, his son is, too. He could have added a small piece to each end and nobody would have ever seen it unless they disassembled it. If it wasn't enough to be seen by fitting it fully into one dado (like less than 1/4"), it's not even worth worrying about.
Next time, if you think it's worth mentioning, tell him, that even the masters have made mistakes and if someone looks for them, they'll be found.
I would have been more impressed by him if he had saved the piece and used it for something else. Salvaging the piece to use in another project is far better than getting all blustery and in your face.
It would only be cheating/lying if the person making the mistake tells someone there are no mistakes in the piece.
So, did you get to sleep.....? Never mind. Makes me wonder what set him off. Was it the first time you had met? I don't think I would lose any sleep over it but he was out of line, both by acting high and mighty and by wasting the wood. I don't think that being a complete miser is called for but a good piece of wood is still useful and cutting it in half to toss it is a complete waste.At some point, I just have to hope he needs a piece of exactly that size to finish a future project.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You did nothing wrong. He was being rude, and given your short description, it is quite impossible to determine why. I could speculate a dozen or so possibilities, and I see that some have. Get to know him better, and then you can determine if he's the type to be avoided.
Todd
I was once told "anyone can make a box. Some of us make them better than others.
All of us make mistakes. Some of us hide them better than others"
I don't know how many times I have had mistakes result in design changes. I was making a cedar chest for my neices wedding and cut the lid 1/4" short on length. The wood was critical and I was not about to trash the wood, because the top and box sides were all from the same series of boards to make the thing all match up. After realizing the mistake and a few choice words it came to me, reduce all dimensions 1/4 and I was back on track. Did it make a difference no. Another time made another mistake due to chip out and decided to ad a band of contrasting wood to cover it up and received cudo's on the originality of of the piece. I told them I labord for hours to come up with that! Can you see a trend here. To each his own though, I find it funny. Take care.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
bones,
I've read the speculation that was concerned over the perhaps unwanted intrustion aspect about the affair.
When I was sent there no one indicated that I either was unwanted or caused offence. I originally was met with a friendly greeting.
I sell for a living and certainly know how to conduct myself and be sensitive to the mood/needs of others..
I guess that just proves that you can't allways read everyone. I know if you would have made that suggestion from me, I would have said "hey great idea".
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
And if you said it to me, I'd say, "Go ahead and finish it, then", and gone away somewhere.
Each to his own, man.
I tend to agree. It is very difficult to judge a situation from one point of view. I very much enjoy working by myself and unsolicited help doesn't sit well with me.
Josh
Unsolicited help is a step beyond unasked for advice which is a step past an unannounced visit.
It is not that I view my hobby as totally solitary, but I don't have that much time to do all I desire (beyond those things I have to do). If I wanted my shop to be a "hang-out", I would have put a neon sign outside.
Further, to those who have been around the trade or hobby for a number of years, you know of the inherent dangers by having distractions around power tools. To those of us who are more hand tool oriented, you know how you cringe when someone grabs your #16 Disston and trys to bend a tune. My wife's brother-in-law is a prime example: 40-something, never held a job more than a year or two and only woodworking experience is watching others. Yet he is full of suggestions on how to cut a dado.
It is a given we don't know the circumstances of the issues the original poster encountered. The point I'm trying to make is that we need to be cognizant of others before we impose our thoughts or suggestions on them, no matter how "tuned in" we think we are.
I wouldn't make a habit of telling a guy how to fix a mistake right after he makes it, especially if you just strolled into the shop for a chat.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Theposterformerlyknown as
First I was supposedly not an unwanted vister.
I was told to go to the shop because he was expecting me
I hesitate to say that he wanted to show me what he was doing (I don't know that) but the greeting I got at first was anything but unwelcoming.
At a minimum because of the wedding shower he should have been expecting visiters and if he was reluctant or didn't want visitors he could have left word with she-who-must be-obeyed.
When he became upset was after he realized he made the mistake, not as I arrived or first spoke to him..
There is much more I could say but to preserve some of his privacy for what later happened after I left became which became extremely nasty and violent I won't discuss it..
Let me simply say that we all have bad days,, sometimes those bad days become monumental and spiral out of control..
Regardless, after I've just made an error I don't need comments from the peanut gallery on how I could or should fix the mistake. Actual woodworking probably should stop when visitors arrive in the shop. That's when it's time to talk woodworking not actually make final cuts on workpieces.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
If Frenchy don't mind, so be it.
Edited 7/19/2007 10:41 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
Hopefully the previous poster wasn't trying to provoke me. I think he was just putting another perspective on an issue.. and that's OK
A sense of privacy prevents me from giving the rest of the story, based on that (which I heard about a week later), I now understand what was happening and let's be polite and say that my apperance wasn't an issue simply another issue.
Possibly a better approach would have been to ask him how he was going to compensate for the mistake or make it right. We all believe that we're experts to some extant and most of us would take umbrage at a suggestion or advice until we ascertained that the advice giver was an acknowledged expert or at least somebody who knew a lot more about the particular subject than we do. If this person that took offense at your suggestion knew that you were very knowledgeable and still took offense at your suggestion, then you definitely did NOT step over the line.
Stumper,
Normally that would be the situation. I found afterwards there were many issues in the persons life that wound up at that point.. While I wasn't the straw that broke the camels back I was real close to the final straw..
My dad always said,
A good carpenter is one that knows how to fix his mistakes, not one that never makes a mistake. The good carpenter is the one who learns from his mistakes and moves on.
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