I was just wonderng how many of you use the metrc system or the imperial system. Haveing grown-up in the Unted States and learnng the imperial system. That is waht comes natural to me. But now that I am studying design and making in Australia, we mainly use metric. And I must say that for me metric s so much easier to deal with.
Kaleo
www.kalafnefurniture.blogspot.com
Replies
I use good old United States standard measures, inches, feet, yards, etc. I HATE the metric system. I am 46 and they tried to teach some of the metric system in school when I was a kid, but they screwed it up so badly that the whole system is offensive to me. The names of units are too dang big, words take to long to tell and are too complicated for some of us to transfer to. Conversion is a fuss, not easy to do and is not exact, try converting to metric and then back and see how accurate it is, you loose some in the thousands of an inch every time you convert just because of mathmatical rounding. If you know metric and like it, then fine, but please don't take away standard until I pass from this earth!!! Yes I will agree that metric is more accurate for small measure, but in woodworking, is that degree of accuracy really necessary? Not for what I make that's for sure. Now what kind of can of worms did I open up with that? :-) This was too much fun......
Both.
I'm Canadian and metric is what is taught here. Its so simple that its not surprising that (last I heard) only two countries in the world haven't switched. What could be easier than having everything multiples of ten? Standarized prefixes across all unit types allow for easy understanding of scale.
I also knew of imperial growing up and am equally comfortable using it. I'm a carpenter and we work in imperial. Learning 16ths is not hard and I don't see any reason to be using a smaller unit than that for baseboard.
I don't see how unit names are too dang big, as meter has but a single letter more than inch or foot. If you move up to mile, then kilometer is just over twice as big. But I can still say it in less than a second. On the other hand five milimeters is quicker than five sixteenths of an inch. Obviously you'd simplify and say five sixteens as well as five mils. I might have a piece of baseboard that is three feet, six inches and three sixteenths. That takes much longer to tell than one hundred twelve centimeters. Or one point one two meters.
Converting to metric and back may cause a slight loss of accuracy, but I'm not sure what the practical application of that is. At least for fine woodworking. If you like to work in imperial than once you convert from metric you're done.
jeremy
To convert from inches to millimeters just multiply by 25.4 or to convert from mm to inches divide by 25.4
This is an exact conversion so not even a millionth of an inch or a micron is lost in the math. From there you can change either one to whatever other unit you want such as meters or feet without any error. It's also easier to just remember one number rather than several conversion factors or be consulting charts all the time.
My big question is why convert at all? If you are working in metric then think metric, if working in imperial then think feet or inches, if working in cubits or fruitloops or whatever, then think in that system and don't worry about what it is in some other system. I think the constant conversion is what goofs people up when trying to learn a new system. IMHO
Rich The Professional Termite
In todays world I think that you need to be able to convert. The reason is that almost all router bits are made in imperial only. At least the good ones are. So you need to know that your 3/8 bit is 9.525 mm. And so on.Kaleo http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Perhaps all of the good routerbits sold in the US are made in imperial?
Dave
PS I have to do things occaisionally in imperial because some tools and fittings are made in the US. The process is that furniture will be made using metric measures. things like hinge mortices will then be marked using whatever the appropriate tool is so that the measure is in whole MM or 1/16.
I dont actually convert - just pick up a different ruler.
Please allow me to add to your post. With the imperial system each time you change from feet to inches, yards rods miles or any other of the terms, you are converting. With metric it involves a simple move of the decimal. To divide one rod, one yard, one ft, and one inch by two and reduce it to the lowest terms as you were taught in seventh grade, you get three yds, one foot and three and one half inches.
.
Now divide 6.2753875 meters (which is the equal length) by 2 and you easily get 3.13769375 meters. Much easier with the metric system. If you were using the metric system you would start out with six divided by half to get three meters. Convert that to imperial and you have problems, even with a calculator. Except for the fact that we have gotten used to the imperial system and have it in our record system, it has no redeeming features.
The can of worms you opened is simply ridiculous.
I am not trying to be a smart azz here, just voicing my opinion, as you did yours.
The reason we don't use it in the USA is simple laziness. We don't like to have to learn how to convert. Had this problem been addressed properly decades ago the act of conversion would not be necessary. I'm in my 60's and people were crying about it when I was in grade school.
Do you understand $$$....?? If so, you understand the basics of metrics.
Why should I have to have 2 or 3 sets of tools to work on an automobile? One (metric) will do it and does in MOST of the world.
Some generation, I hope, will accept this and get through it. When the Brits switched over from schillings, pense, farthings, etc. some were so distraught that they committed suicide. How bad can you get? Same with this country. It is not about how many thousandths of an inch you may shave from a piece of wood, it is about a standardized system of measure that ANYONE may use. Even the not so adept.
We are setting standards for some of the lowest achieving students in the industrialized world simply because we are too damned lazy to study. Why are so many professionals in this country immigrants.? Because we cannot fill the schools with enough bright minds for mathematics or medicine. If it is not football, MTV,Rapp, shopping at the mall or tuning out from politics and current events we, especially our younger generations, don't want to pay attention.
It is our fault, but what the hey.....other countries are waiting....we are just marking time until someone else does it for us.
just my $.02 worth (that's 2% of $1.00) and you did comment/ask..........call me whatever, but we'll never be a nation of leaders anymore if we can't grasp the basics of everyday life the rest of the world uses.
I welcome any comments to set me straight.
bum
"I use good old United States standard measures, inches, feet, yards, etc. I HATE the metric system. I am 46 and they tried to teach some of the metric system in school when I was a kid, but they screwed it up so badly that the whole system is offensive to me."
...if that doesn't sound rednecked and narrow minded I don't know what would..
edited for my poor lazy spelling ;0)
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Edited 10/19/2006 12:44 am by oldbeachbum
Edited 10/19/2006 12:57 am by oldbeachbum
"The reason we don't use it in the USA is simple laziness. We don't like to have to learn how to convert. Had this problem been addressed properly decades ago the act of conversion would not be necessary. I'm in my 60's and people were crying about it when I was in grade school."
You can add hubris to that. This is America, damn it, and we do what we want, and the world will follow. Or not (as we're finding out). Why should we care?
Imperial units are a royal pain in engineering, and I'm only good at using them because I've used them for decades (slugs? hp? BTU? g-sub-c? oy!) I wish they had finished what they started when I was in grade school.
Oh, by the way, my British friends tell me that they still use a few Imperial units in everyday life, even though they went metric long ago. I don't remember what they are, unfortunately.Be seeing you...
I lived in Rochester in the early/mid 50's..lots of change...still have family in the Pualski/Oswego area and went to HS near Syracuse.
I just gave the last of my vacuum tubes to my daughter & son-in-law, all connected to the '56 Chevy they are in
My hero...Alfred E. Newman...I wish I still had all my ORIGINAL magazines.. I had all of them through 1964...gone now, who knew? :o(...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
If the radio in the '56 craps out, a friiend of mine does repairs and upgrades, using the OEM face, chassis and can refurb it so it looks like new. It has a good amplifier, input for CD changer (or iPod, if you want). Bass/treble controls, good tuner and can use the Town/Country auto tuning feature.TUBES ARE NOT DEAD! Most of the best guitar amps use tubes and there are some exceptionally nice stereo maps out there with tubes, including one of mine.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks for the info. I'll let my SIL know. He lives in Ellensburg, Wa. (nearly the center of the state-130 miles or so E of Seattle). Where is your friend located?
Any idea of $. I gave the kids the car as a wedding present and I might be able to do this as an anniv. gift.
I was the 3rd owner, know the other 2 guys and full history on the car. It was a daily driver, no accidents, damage or rust, it is totally original but never restored. They are saving some $ to do an original restoration. It has been garaged constantly since before 1976. Only 130k miles. Belair, 4dr post, 235 cu/in 6 w/power glide, 2tone copper/cream. A good looking old dame that burns oil a bit. Typical Chevy 6. (oops-kind of off thread)
"now, how many litres is that in "real" numbers?
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Edited 10/19/2006 11:26 pm by oldbeachbum
"now, how many litres is that in "real" numbers?"235 C.I.D.
1728 in³/ft³
28.3L/ft³
1728in³/28.3L=61.06 in³/L
235/61.06=3.848673435LSteve is in Waterford, WI and his site is http://www.vintageautoradio.comHe may have the same model in stock if they want to keep the original unit, too. Tell him Jim in Milwaukee sent you.BTW- that oil burning may just be valve seals. Is it all the time or just at start-up? Probably needs to be honed if it's burning it all the time. Not rally a big deal.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks Jim,
The engine needs a complete redo. It's a combo of valves & rings. Being what it is we'll just do a total rebuild and make sure it is all good to go. Not expensive, just have to budget the time.
another Jim...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
I live near D.C. but have a summer place on Ramona Beach, Pulaski, NY. Just down the road from Selkirk State Park...Small world ain't it? Jimmy
You don't know how small. My Dad was in the CCC in the 30's and I have photographs of him and his brother helping to build that park. Does the attached photo look familiar? Selkirk Light. (The site was once known as La Place de la Famine-a spot where Samuel D. Champlain met with local natives of the Iriquois nation during a time of famine)
I still have lots of family in and around the area, esp. Pulaski and my Dad is at rest in the little hamlet of Fernwood. I went to school at Oswego State.
I have an oil painting of the lighthouse that was done about 1890-95 by one of the local artists/craftspersons as well as a handbuilt sloop built by the same person for my grandfather's 7th birthday.
I could go on but won't bore you anymore with my old memories. FWIW I'm in my 60's now.
...another Jim... edited for sp.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Edited 10/20/2006 10:38 pm by oldbeachbum
Edited 10/20/2006 10:40 pm by oldbeachbum
Edited 10/20/2006 10:42 pm by oldbeachbum
Have a beautiful picture of the Fernwood Hydro dam from the early 70s. Been there many times. Pulaski really never changes...or Oswego for that matter...ahhh the beautiful sunsets over the lake from the Lighthouse....
The lighthouse is on the National Historic Register and Harbor Lights (scale model replicas-dust collectors) made a limited run. I was lucky enough to score one and it's autographed by the current "keeper". It is one of only two 'birdcage' lights. Nice to see the river cleaned up and returned to good use for sport fishing again. There was more help from Canada on that the the US fish & Wildlife Svce....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
"my British friends .....still use a few Imperial units in everyday life, ....went metric long ago."
We still use things like feet, inches, pounds, Fahrenheit, Imperial pints, to name but a few. I do my working drawings in metric- metres and millimetres, and buy the wood required for the project in cubic feet. Officially, just about everything is metric except for the Imperial pint of beer in the pub.
Most of us are adept at switching between systems. I carry conversions around in my head. 10.76 ft² is 1 m², 35.31 ft³ is 1 m³, etc.. It's pretty simple to switch between systems and anyone can do it if they choose to learn how.
Of course, some people prefer to, and consciously choose not to know, as amply illustrated by some comments in this thread. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Is that lumber you buy by the m3 4/4" or its metric equivalent? When building a reproduction of a period piece, would you convert its dimensions to metric, or switch to inches/fractions?
I'm currently building a "country Chippendale" entertainment center (already we're dealing in contradictory images) the dimensions of which were given to me in inches. It gets flipper doors, the hinges of which are those Euro, metric thingies. So some areas of this thing are Imperial, some, metric. Miscegenation!
Calories and Btu's are both used in the USA. Can't we all just get along like that?
By the way, Steve Allen once explained that he had an uncle who served in a British Thermal Unit, during the war.
Ramblingly,
Ray
Ah Ray. You're trying to confuse your metrically challenged countrymen (and women I suppose in these ultra PC time.) It's surprising how often you'll see specified things like, 50 ft³ of 2.4m X 4" X 2". Unbelievable but true. 2.4m is the metric equivalent of 8'.
I've always been fond of pieces of furniture described as things like, Chippendale entertainment centre, Shaker computer desk, or Arts and Crafts television cabinet. I'm always fascinated to see how Chippendale treated entertainment centres in his day. I once looked through a book on Shaker furniture searching for one of the original Shaker computer desks. I was truly disappointed not to find one.
If you're looking for a bit of Chippendale of mixed parentage I think you should really go the whole hog and work in some interesting measurements, e.g., royal cubits or nautical miles. To hell with those daft inch things and the contrived metric stuff. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
"Very good!", he said chuckling....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
"By the way, Steve Allen once explained that he had an uncle who served in a British Thermal Unit, during the war."
He must have been hot stuff!
Scrit
I do my working drawings in metric
Hi Richard
That sentence of yours gave me pause to think.
I grew up with the Imperial system ... well, my early years at school were Imperial, changing in about 1960 to Metric. I suppose that I have spent most of my adult life deep in the Metric system. Nevertheless there are aspects of it that I find lacking, and so much of my woodworking has been in a mix of Metric and Imperial. There is still something positive to be said for Imperial.
What I realise I do is calculate in Metric, draw (dimensions) in Metric, but want to measure in Imperial. The strength of Metric is for me also its weakness. A Metric tape or rule is a simple thing: metres, centimetres and millimetres. While this makes calculations dead easy, it is visually overwhelming when it comes to reading the measurements. What I want are the types of subdivisions that are part of the Imperial system - something that is smaller than a metre and larger than a centimetre. My mind is still using as a reference lengths in sizes equivalent to an inch and a foot. It is not as easy to calculate in these measures. Adding and substracting fractions is the pits, but the choice of using 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, etc as a constant is just not present in the Metric system.
What we really need is a Metric System for Woodworkers (MSW). This would provide rules and tapes with segments that are easier and more informative to read. For example, every 5th and 10th centimetre is maked to stand out more clearly. Something along these lines.
Do you measure your height in m/mm or ft/inches?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, I've always said a decimal foot would be ideal, like surveyors use in the US. The foot is such a handy size, and the metre is a bit of a pain, especially if you're buying in cubic metres for building tables, cabinets, etc.. A foot divided into 10 'inches' I think I could handle well enough.
Most tables use about 5-7 ft³, or 60- 84 board feet, or 0.14 to 0.2 m³. I'd rather use cubic feet or board feet. I can get my head around what that volume looks like, but 0.2 of a cubic metre means nothing to me really.
I tend to begin my design work in feet and then convert to the nearest convenient metric measure. For example I usually think an item needs to be about 6' 6" wide, etc., and then I convert it to 2000 mm, which is close. After that it's all metric until I come to buying the timber. At that point it gets switched back to Imperial until I start hacking it all up to make the piece-- confusing, or what?
Incidentally, furniture makers in this country follow the engineering convention when working in metric, i.e., metres and millimetres. Centimetres don't exist in the eyes of woodworkers here. We'll call out, 1m 355 mm or 1355 mm, but never 1m 35.5 cm, nor 135.5 cm. The last two examples are absolute no-no's in the workshop.Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 10/19/2006 2:00 pm by SgianDubh
Divide one meter into three parts. You can express this as accurately as you wish but only by extending the number of decimal places. One yard divided by three is exactly 1 foot. Half of 5/16 is 5/32 with only the simplest of arithmetic.
But the biggest problem in a world with two measures is the conversion. Unless the measurement really needs the precision, one inch is 25 mm, not 25.4 etc. Taking round numbers in one system and converting to higher precision numbers in the other is what makes it all more confusing.
That 4mm is more than 1.5%, which is significant, or >1" in 6'.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Not my point. For woodworking, if I am going to make a table top 1" thick, then if I work in metric I am not going to make it 25.4 mm thick, I'll be making it 25mm thick. Now if we are talking 6 ft then the translation to metric of 18.288 cm implies a precision that is un-warranted. In that case I'm not suggesting that the proper translation is 18.0cm but it is more reasonable to say 18.3 cm. or 18.25. I'm merely cavilling about spurious precision, not suggesting that accuracy be ignored.
Remember, the context here is woodworking, not engineering, and actual "measurements" are hardly ever needed. Best practice is to make things of equal length, not to labor to make each rail precisely 18 1/128" long so a panel frame will be square. Marking properly from a master, or from a story stick ends, up with rails probably equal within .001", but it matters naught whether that batch is 17 31/32" or 18 1/16" since few of us here are making interchangable part production items. That's why marking guages are more important than rulers--and metric or imperial is a matter of total indifference when using the gauges.
Oh, also you illustrated the big problem with working in metric. The difference was 0.4 mm not 4 mm. I find it a lot easier to slip a decimal than to screw up dividing by 2, or 3.
Edited 10/20/2006 3:42 am ET by SteveSchoene
Thanks for the correction- I was off a whole order of magnitude but my % was correct. I agree- going 3 places to the right of the decimal is not necessary, and we're actually doing that with multiples of 1/16" and 1/32" but when we use an imperial scale, we're just measuring to a mark, which is just fine. The proportions are more important than the dimensions once the piece's general size is determined. I think that for woodworking, accuracy to 1/16" or 1/32" is close enough but being able to make multiple cuts to a particular size is needed. I guess it's back to "as long as the standards aren't mixed, everything should be OK" thing.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Marking properly from a master, or from a story stick ends, up with rails probably equal within .001", but it matters naught whether that batch is 17 31/32" or 18 1/16" since few of us here are making interchangable part production items. That's why marking guages are more important than rulers--and metric or imperial is a matter of total indifference when using the gauges."
This supports what I said about not bothering with conversions. Pick up a measuring device and use it. What difference does it make what the name of the measuring system is? When I go to Canada and the speed limit is posted in KPH I don't try to convert that to MPH I just look at the KPH scale on the speedo. I also don't care how many knots or furlongs or cubits or days journeys per hour I am going, only what I am doing in the system in use at the time.
After many years of patternmaking and checking others work before it left the shop, I discovered that those who would convert made a less precision end product. Those who would simply pull out the metric rules when working with a metric drawing had less mistakes. What would happen is they would first go through the drawing and convert all the metric measurements to imperial. Then they would look at them a figure out what imperial dimension it came closest to, example, 18mm is .70866_ " so that would be about 45/64. Then when adding up dimensions for a total they are also accumulating error and could end up 1/8 off over a given distance. Those who did the math to add shrink so they could use a standard rule rather than just use the proper shrink rule would fall into the same trap. I remember one job that I delivered, 1 day travel time, and by the time I got back to the shop the foundry had allready called to say it was wrong. Went back the next day and picked it up, a co-worker spent the next two days changing it, then I delivered it again. 4 days lost time because someone (the shop owner) converted 18mm rounds and fillets to 3/8".
Many other posters on this thread have basically said the same thing. The mistakes are not made within a system but rather when converting from one to another, mostly because of wrong conversion factors or rounding of numbers.
Rich The Professional Termite
If the drawings are in metric or Imperial, there's absolutely no reason to convert. The work should just be done in those units.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Steve,
You made your point about getting the decimal point in the right place....6 feet is approximately 182 cm rather than 18.xx cm!
As I lived in the US for the first 38 years of my life and the next 28 (and hopefully more!) in Germany, Switzerland and now the UK I have used both systems extensively both as an engineer and as a woodworker. I do find the metric system much simpler to use and just as accurate.
The US industrial complex may have a greater incentive to go more metric shortly as the EU has just decreed that all products entering or leaving the EU must have only metric descriptions. I believe that comes into full effect on 1/1/2010. The US regulations now call for having an imperial equivalent on all metric products. Big problem looming! The UK has fought ever move to metrification over the past years and my GP still asks for my weight in stones. I usually tell her it depends on the size of stones to irritate her! FYI 1 stone=14 pounds..which in metric is.....
Think positive though...the gas pumps could then have a 50cent postings for a liter of gas and you will feel better about metric!
Bill
Back in school I took a physics course which had a section on different measurments. Metric is base 10, each unit is 10 of the one below (10mm = 1cm), which is supposed to be more intuitive for humans with 10 fingers and 10 toes. All units of length are defined against the meter now, and most science and high tech jobs use metric.
That said it's more or less irrelivant which system you use. As long as people understand what is being said. Living in Canada I get a good dose of this. Officially we use metric, and I am young enough that all my schooling was in metric (except for the units of measure section). But if you ask me how tall I am, I'll say 5' 10". Why? Because 177cm doesn't have a good refernence to most people here. Same with buying wood. I go down and pick up 2x4's and 3/4" ply, and for wood working we use bd ft. It's just a good unit of scale for the job, buying 0.2 m^3 of wood would have a good reference. I suppose some of this has to dow ith our large trade with the US.
My guess is some of the standard thicknesses of material came into effect as they were easy to use. 1/4", 1/2", 3/4"... All these are easy to divide and add. If metric had been more common, my guess is that we would have standard sizes of 5mm, 10mm, 15mm etc. Which again are easy to divide and add.
Fo rthe record I do all my woodworking in imperial. I'm comfortable either way, but the wood already comes in 1/4" increments...
"What we really need is a Metric System for Woodworkers (MSW)."
I just can't believe Isaw that.
I have no reason I would not switch, IF I could EASILY get all my measurement instruments in metric (tapes, steel rules, micrometers, vernier calipers (do have digital), dial calipers, etc, I would switch.
I have been looking for a tape (say 16 or 25 ft) in tenths of an inch. I can't find that. The reason I am interested is that that would allow me to use english units and not have to screw around with fractions. THAT is my major concern. I don't care if the standard is metric or english, I just don't want to have to deal with fractions. For someone that is not working with the larger measurements such as meters and kilometers, that would solve most of the problems.
I have been looking for a tape (say 16 or 25 ft) in tenths of an inch.
Eric, so have I.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I just found that Lee Valley has a couple, but I would like to have one from Fastcap. They have nice products.
Just curious, but why a 16' or 25' tape with 1/10" increments?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Lufkin makes a 12-ft. ruler in the machinist's scale (i.e., inches divided into tenths). I got mine, special order, through Lowes. It cost $35 and I never use it. I have two problems with it: first, it's not long enough for many of my projects (I'm a builder-remodeler); second, the increments are too coarse.
I've used a tape laid out in cms for years for complex tasks such as laying out stairs, balusters, foundations and roof frames. The adjustment period for me was about five minutes. I had always done complex layouts in decimalized inches, so the way I calculated layouts remained the same. Looking at a tape laid out in tenths was entirely familiar because I have been doing so all my life; my bathroom scale, the speedometer on my car, the temperature setting on my oven--all of these are divided into tenths. If you want to go the metric route, I would strongly advise getting a metric-only tape measure. I have Starrett's AG1-8M6, which is an 8 meter (a little over 26-ft.) tape. I also have a 20-meter (65-ft.) tape from Starrett. I got these off the internet and will provide a link in a subsequent post. You can also get a metric-only tape from Lee Valley Tools.
If you're interested in metric-only tapes, they're available here: http://www.right-tool.com/starhigqualm.html
"I have been looking for a tape (say 16 or 25 ft) in tenths of an inch. I can't find that. The reason I am interested is that that would allow me to use english units and not have to screw around with fractions."Starrett make some decimal tapes that may be what you and some of the others are looking for.http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/catalog/groups.asp?GrpTab=Spec&GroupID=492The only thing I will say regarding the metric/imperial argument is that the US has a population that is only 1/20 of the world's total.Resistance is futile!!! ;-)
Derek:
There is a metric measurement unit between centimetre (cm.) and metre (m.); the decametre (dm.) which is 10 cm. and 10 of which make a metre, but for some reason it is not in general use.
As for rulers, your idea of markings to delineate portions of the major units seems to have worth for wood workers, at least.
Paige
While I agree that the US should switch to Metric, that opinion has everything to do with the fact that it is the de facto standard in the rest of the world, NOT because I think it is inherently superior.
As a complete system of units, metric hangs together better (I love the connection between liters and meters, for example) and is very pretty, BUT...
In rough construction of a variety of types of items, it is very common to divide lengths into equal subparts. You can do that more easily in more cases with feet than in meters. I can divide a foot into 2, 3, 4, 6, or 12 pieces easily without getting into fractional units. The result is always an integer in inches.
It is also at least as natural to divide small dimensions in half instead of into 10ths. Thus, 1/2", 1/4", 1/8", etc, as the standard subunits.
This is also why we have 360 degrees in a circle. More ways to divide the circle up into equal pieces while still dealing with integers.
Again, I am not an advocate of retaining two measurement standards in the world, and think we should dump the imperial system, but let's not forget the practical reasons the imperial system developed in the first place.To the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
32201.89 in reply to 32201.81
Highfigh wrote: Just curious, but why a 16' or 25' tape with 1/10" increments?
and MaxYak wrote: In rough construction of a variety of types of items, it is very common to divide lengths into equal subparts. You can do that more easily in more cases with feet than in meters.
I like the Imperial system for the size of its units of measurement. I can relate to a unit the size of a foot, to an inch, and to 1/16". The problem with the Metric system is that its units are too large (metres) and when used collectively they are difficult to visualize (1.77m or 5'10" - which do you find easier to understand?).
Why is it that I still relate better to the size of Imperial units when I was introduced to Metric as a lad of 11 years back in 1961?
What I like about the Metric system is that it is much easier to compute in units of 10 and 100 than in fractions of 12 or 8 or 16. I think that it is natural to halve or third or quarter a length, but more than this and we pull out the pen and paper.
So can we have an inch that is decimalised? Alternately, can we design a scale that manages to make Metric easier to read?
Regards from Perth
Derek (who works equally in Metric and Imperial)
Edited 10/21/2006 1:32 pm ET by derekcohen
Starrett's rules have special markings which make counting mms easier.
I sort of follow your lines...I was an engineer for 35 years and sort of learned both systems and now go back and forth with relative ease. I farm now and don't seem to run into the metric system except when I mess around with Woodworking. I still have a lot of old tools that I used in my hayday that are metric, including gauges,dial indicators, calipers, and even a slide rule! I know I should pitch them, but can't let go, which probably explains why we Americans do not go metric.
As Prince Charles said a few years ago," We are moving to the metric system inch by inch."
Made me laugh.
Chris
You forgot 28.3 L/ft³, 39.37"/m, 1.09 yds/m, 2.2lb/Kg and 1.6 miles/Km.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"You forgot 28.3 L/ft³, 39.37"/m, 1.09 yds/m, 2.2lb/Kg and 1.6 miles/Km."
I wish you hadn't reminded me of those. I rather liked the fact those conversions had previously been expunged from my memory. Now it'll be years before I forget them again, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Sorry, how about a stout pint? Or is it 'a pint of Stout'?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hang on you yanks, a little story that will explain how we managed during the conversion to metric.
This bloke goes into a timber merchant to buy some 6ft lenghs of 3inch x 2 inch timber, this is the way it went,
Customer can I have some of 3 x 2 please?
Counter clerk, Sorry mate no can do it's all metric now you will have to 75 mm x 50 mm.
Customer OK that will do, can I have 10 6 ft lenghts?
Counter Clerk Sorry No Can Do !! we only have 2 metre lenght, that is just over 6ft 6ins in the old measure,
Customer OK that will do I'll have 10 of them, How much is the cost then?
Counter Clerk 2 shillings a foot.
I still ask for certain thing in imperial if I am talking to to old timers like myself
Denny from over the Pond
Richard,
I have long been trying to get my own measuring units adopted by The State, as I feel they would be very inconvenient, which will please many who like to make their chosen hobby seem difficult.
The largest unit would be the "throw" - the distance I can chuck a medium-weight fool who won't agree with at least ten of my personal prejudices.
One Throw would contain 7.82 "chucks", which is the distance I can project vomit when something someone says offends me greatly. (I saw it on Titty Bang Bang).
One chuck will contain 4.397 "spurts" - the distance a mouthful of beer is inadvertently spit when bursting out laughing at the incredibly stupid opinion voiced by some fan of Imperial measurement or flat earth-ism, in the pub (where I generally drink 330, 400, 500ml or pints, yards and firkin glasses of beer, depending on who's buying and the local measurement mores - it all goes around the same pipework and down to the sea you know).
As these Lataxe measurements are all based on natural processes, rather than mere logic and standardization, I expect that all woodworkers everywhere will take them up, despite the slight difficulties of performing calculations with them. (After all, anyone who likes 1/64ths will surely love throws, chucks and spurts).
I expect Lee Valley will have a Lataxe tape in their catalogue within the next week or two. It will have both infinitesimally small fractions and randomly-arranged subdivisions of all three units.
Standardized Lataxe,
(who would normally say "standardised" but we must allow the US to have their way in these matters).
Finally, it took 120 posts for someone to mention alcohol. Wine and liquor have been metric in the US for decades and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Just go with the flow fellow woodworkers.
My dear Fellow,
"Pints?!? You mean it comes in Pints??? I've got to get me one of them." or words to that effect. -- One of the wee hairy-toed, mushroom-loving folk in an inn during the first installment of a famous Kiwi moving picture show, inspired, as it were, by a famous English professor.
<< firkin glasses of beer>>
A wee bit, ahem, thirsty that day were we laddae? And the lucky bloke buyin' 'ad real deep pocketses too, eh? :-P
<<Standardized Lataxe, >>
Lataxe -- standardised??? Not firkin likely, mate... (Pardon pour le "Pun".) (Please, sir, note the proper use of the Queen's English spelling, rather than the less refined spelling used by us former colonials...) :-0
_______
Firkin -- originally from the Middle Dutch vierdekijn, "fourth." A unit of measure usually associated with beer, ale, or wine. Approximately ¼ or 1/3 barrel (beer/ale and wine, respectively).
Ale: (1454) 8 gallons / 36.97 litres
(1688) 8½ gallons / 39.28 litres
(1803) 9 gallons / 41.59 litres
(1824) 9 Imperial gallons / 40.91 litres
Beer: (1454) 9 gallons / 41.59 litres
Wine: 70 gallons / 318.2 litres
Soap: 64 pounds / 29 kilogrammes
Butter: 56 pounds / 25.4 kilogrammes
Also: "...a suitably atmospheric word by those naming an English-style pub — by implication, the establishment will thus be either a new pub in the UK (and hence probably part of a retail chain of "plastic" drinking shops) or a foreign imitation of a British pub." (http://www.answers.com)
(Kindly note the suitably English spellings throughout, in due deference to our original Mother Country) ;-)
_____
BTW, I do rather like your system of measurements. I'll stick to Imperial measurements for woodworking, though, just because I'm used to it. Plus, it's great fun to watch the faces of those who are not all that familiar with the metric system when I seamlessly switch between the two in a single sentence (oh it's about 250 meters away...give or take an inch or two...). Like the MasterCard adverts...priceless....
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 10/23/2006 5:27 pm by pzgren
Well, for me I like to work with inches ,feet, yards etc. I can look at something and know how it measures up. Say for example how deep the B.S. is getting. It's just what system I been using for so many years. I can figure , better get the hip boots on.Got a couple of yards piling up here. Anyway after so many years working with the imperial system I ain't never going metric. Although I would encourage the young ones to be able to work with both. Way of the future!
We can add to the selective randomness of the system, Lataxe. You'll not have forgotten the 'bo'hair' used for measurements too small for the eye to see, and therefore a useful subdivision of the 'tad', which fits into a 'spurt' as often as is convenient on any given day. Bo'hair measure comes in three sizes as you'll know, black, blonde, and red, i.e., thick, medium and fine. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
For really close tolerances, the frog hair is to be preferred. "Finer'n frog hair split four ways," is getting down there, too little to be measured, in fact...
Cheers,
Ray
Ray, it's good to see that yourself, Lataxe and I are bringing this thread back to its essentials-- the discussion of measurement systems in their raw and elemental forms.
None of this esoteric flim-flam concerning Yank Tank gas-guzzlers, and the right to might that is the clarion cry of the good Ol' Erse Kickin' U S of A. No, no, no-- we like to keep firmly on track with the nub of the subject, bo'hairs, frog's hairs, spurts, chucks an' all. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Laddie, you could have heard one of us Machinist Mates from Uncle Sam's Submarine Service calling out a critical dimension (when re-assembling a very high pressure air valve) to be about half of a "RCH".
To insure accuracy we sollicited samples and retired to the nucelonics lab for testing. The results were as you described, so you can now be assured that your measurements are true.
Now I am not sure that the enviornmental forces today are the same on your side of the pond, but I am sure that we could coax Latex to establish rigerous testing procedures to re-benchmark our findings. Due to the security involved the detailed specifications for the testing could only be transmitted over a secure Email connection. All the best, Pat
Mainly Miles and Miles per hour though some people still hang on to pounds and ounces. Come to think of it, most people I know still think of their weight in Stones not Kg. One bizare measure is in fabric measurements where the width is in imperial but the lenght, by law is in metres!!
regards,
Turnpike
London UK
Turnpike,
<<One bizare measure is in fabric measurements where the width is in imperial but the lenght, by law is in metres!!>>
Gotta love that one. So....if you use this fabric to make a pair of trousers (say 32 inch waist and 34 inches length) the size would have have to be labeled, by law, something like, "32 inches X 86 cm"? What fun..... ;-)
Always liked the measurement "Stone" for weight. You get the "deer-in-the-headlights" look from most people on this side of the pond when you tell people that you weigh "13 Stone."Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
James,
32in waist -ah, those were the days! Once it was 30ins but people kept offering me their pork pie or a bowl of soup.
I now measure my mid-region using the subjective tension of my elasticated baggies, on some of which exotic fish are painted whilst others have a repeating message in vertical Japanes ideograms that says, "Stop looking at me or I'll poke you in a sensitive place".
As to weight, well I am 90 kilos of gristle and teeth - not an ounce to be spared, as it all fuels the bike rides and the heart-rending gym sessions. This equates to 200llbs - a bit of a skinny bloke on the US bloke-size scale (although US woodworkers in FWW always look a bit emaciated to me - perhaps they're confusing kilos and llbs? But I digress).
As I once opined in a very early Knots post - shouldn't you have thrown out imperial weights and measures with the tea? For a nation of independent-thinking, individually-minded folk, you don't half hang on to what your great great grandad said you oughterdo!
Meanwhile, I am comparing nanometres with parsecs in my cosmology class. Now them fellahs have some excellent measurements, which cater to things of all sizes.
Lataxe,
a mote of insignificant dimension, in the grander scale of things - waist size notwithstanding.
"One bizare measure is in fabric measurements where the width is in imperial but the lenght, by law is in metres!!"
I think tht's down to the fact that weaving looms built in the UK (or for that matter imported) before the 1970s were always described as 24in frame, 30in frame, etc - and looms tend to have a long life (100 years is not unknown)
Scrit
As a Brit, (though I've lived in France for thirteen years, the only things I can think of that are still imperial are miles and pints of draught beer. Oh, and pipe threads - even the French use Imperial pipe threads though they sometimes label them differently.
The primary Imperial Unit the Brits still use on a daily basis is the pint... Been known to use that one myself.The real reason the US of A slammed the brakes on going metric has to do not with good sense or convenience or accuracy; it has to do with simple corporate economics. The Reagan administration bought off on the notion that it would be the economic death knell for USA manufacturers to have to re-tool their factories and parts to the metric standard. Of course, by the early 90s, all of those worried manufacturers had jumped on the boat and taken all of their manufacturing jobs offshore to brand-new, metric, ISO 9000 plants...Maaaan! Talk about whacking at hornets' nests!
(Knots is better than anything coming out of Hollywood for Saturday night entertainment.)
No, not laziness, my friend, we figured the cost of conversion would be too high. For instance, we currently have highways that have an asphalt depth of, say 12 inches. Trucks weighing 105,000 pounds roll up and down those highways. Now, if we convert to SI units using the complicated base ten numbers, we'd have some real problems. See, they use centimeters instead of inches, and kilograms instead of pounds. So if we switched, we would have trucks weighing 105,000 Kg (a 220% increase in weight) running up and down highways that are only 12 cm thick, a 60% reduction in thickness. The trucks would deliver things more quickly because 60 km isn't as far as 60 miles, so places are closer, but then, an 18 liter tank of gasoline will only take you a fourth as far as an 18 gallon tank of gas. I could go on and on, but I'm sure there's some interesting debates on whether we should change the dime to be a better measure of worth by making it a 1/12 of a dollar.
<BobMc is kidding, right? emoticon>
Don't blame me, I went to public school. It was about three furlongs per fortnight (or was that when class started?)
:)
makes perfect cents to me...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
You're right metric is so simple it's amazing, after living here and working in metric for one year (20 years ago) I couldn't understand how Americans could continue with the Imperial system.
And as far as adapting to a new system ..... well we changed to Euro from Lira a few years ago and lots of old folks complained...now no problem , Euro is much easier that Lira ever was.
Philip
Wop,At least with Euros you don't get stamps and candies instead of change !
Remember those times ?C.
Do I ever remember that. Our main business (3 generations family business) is production and sales of candy. It always pi$$ed me off when they tried to give me candy as change.
Philip
Well this is just the opinion of a dumb redneck hick, so I doubt you’ll put much stock in it from your exalted position of arbiter of measurement systems. But, it has always seemed to me that I think in terms of dividing things in halves, not by tenths. The decimal may be scientific and mathematical, but halves are much more intuitive.
As to being a nation of leaders, did I miss something? I thought we out produce, innovate and develop any nation on the planet. Let’s see, who else has twelve carrier battle groups? That would be the same ones who have put a man on the moon. They also build stealth bombers, lead the world in pharmaceutical development, have the most valued currency, and send lots of relief to those advance states that have long ago adopted the metric system. On my last trip to <!----><!---->Africa<!---->, I noticed a lot of people buying their daily supply of charcoal to cook on measured by the kilo, I’ll take my cubic foot of natural gas, thanks.
<!----><!----> <!---->
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world" - Arthur Schopenhauer<!----><!---->
Napie, I don't think it's as dramatic as all that. It's just easier to add, subtract, and divide whole numbers in a furniture shop. It's not traitorous for a U.S. citizen to use the metric system and even recommend its use.
I never remotely indicated that it is traitorous to use the metric system, why would you say that? Use what you like. What I am trying to point out is that the <!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!----> is still the world leader in just about anything that matters, regardless of the measurement system used. Most people who love to point out all the flaws here do so without making a true comparison to how the rest of the world really lives. They do that because they get their information from limited and or biased sources and take it for the gospel. Most have never been to the places they hold up as the paragons of virtue and the shining examples of how we should alter our society to be.<!----><!----><!---->
What I am trying to point out is that the <!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!----> is still the world leader in just about anything that matters, regardless of the measurement system used.
I don't think it has much to do with the metric system, but alot of folks would disagree with that. Things "that matter" to most people, where we are most definitely not the world leader, include:
-- general education,-- engineering/technical graduating rate,-- average health,-- access to health-care,-- infant morality,-- literacy rate,-- vacation/liesure time,-- rate of murder and other violent crime,-- rate of drug-abuse-caused crime,-- broadband, wireless, and other advanced telecommunications system infrastructureAnd in other areas, other countries are catching up fast, why we seem to assume we'll stay #1 just because it's our divine birthright. It's not gonna be that's way if we assume we don't need to do anything to stay on top. For example, the basic research funding that led to many of the advances that got us to where we are, is now disappearing. In the past few years, scientifical research is being stymied due to the increasing prominance of 19th-century religious dogma: among the industrialized world, this is only happening in the U.S.Maybe we're still ahead in average income, but that's mostly because, as is often pointed out, if Bill Gates walked in a bar full of unemployeed workers, the fact that the average income in the bar was now ~$300 million a year does little good to most of the guys in there: our averages are heavily skewed by a small number of ultra-weathy.
As to measurement systems, I have the answer: I hope to release genetically-engineered mutant foods into the food supply; eventually this will cause all of us to have 12 fingers and toes. The "natural" way of counting will then be base-twelve rather than base-ten. I'll then introduce the "neo-metric" system, which will use base-twelve numbers. Quantities will be divisible by 2, 3, 4, etc.
Edited 10/20/2006 6:10 pm by BarryO
Marvelous solution!!Cadiddlehopper
And yet, how many people are lined up to leave the US vs. how many are looking to get in. You list a lot of general items, where is your data? Is this opinion on your part or do you have facts?
And yet, how many people are lined up to leave the US vs. how many are looking to get in.
Most Americans don't have enough money to move anywhere, and most other countries don't readily accept immigrants.
Most of the people trying to get in are coming from Mexico and are dirt-poor. That's not really a ringing endorsement for America. Many of the other people who come here for tech jobs don't intend to stay here; they make money while they can (while the dollar still is valued high relative to, say, the Rupee) and send part of it home to their families. The rest they save up for themselves. After a certain number of years of that, they move back to their home country and retire. The end effect is all that money is drained from the American economy, making it weaker.
There's lots of people lined up to get into the other industrialized countries as well. Don't think we're so special.
So if it is so bad, figure out how to get out, Canada will take you. You oughta love the tax rate. The two year wait for a hernia operation is pretty great too. All I can say is that this sure is a down hearted group, I'm glad we were of better stock in '41. In my business there are a lot of western Europeans who want to stay here, we are loaded with expats looking to stay.
"After a certain number of years of that, they move back to their home country and retire."Some do, a lot develop a really nice way of life and when they think about how they would live in their home country, they decide that they won't move back. They may have a lot of money compared to the prople of that country but in a lot of places, that makes them a target. When I was in school (mid-'70s), there were a lot of engineering students from the Middle East and Central Asia, who planned to come here for the reasons you mentioned. I could probably get stats on how many stayed here. One of my physics professors came here for that and he's still here. He is now a real estate developer and has made millions." and most other countries don't readily accept immigrants."This is a great point that needs to be made clear to those who think the US should just take in everyone who wants to live here. When "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" was written, people didn't rely on the government for as much as they do now and the world markets & politics were totally different. There were, however, set rules for immigration and AFAIK, they were followed more by the immigrants than they are now.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
>One of my physics professors came here for that and he's still here. He is now a real estate developer and has made millions.<
According to Stanley and Danko, The Millionaire Next Door, 1996, there are more first generation millionaires in the USA than any other country on the face of the earth, or, in terms of constant dollars, in the history of civilization. The reason for this is the unparalleled degree of personal freedom and educational and economic opportunity that exists in this country. This is something that people should keep in mind when the same old class-warfare economics arguments that have been used to try to attract the votes of poor people since the 1960s are trotted out. I do believe that personal circumstances and bad luck cause some people to be poor and that they should be helped, but to deny that great educational and economic opportunity exists in the USA is just silly.
That's as far as I will ever go towards expressing a political opinion on here again.
For all: I think the metric system is great and if I ever want to use it I will grab The Triton Project Book, or some of the other stuff that I bought when I lived in Australia and go to work. Nothing wrong with it at all. But if I close my eyes and imagine a 14-foot, 16-foot or 18-foot trailerable sailboat, I imagine the distances in imperial measurements. I know that I could convert to metric if I wanted, but when I'm examining spatial relationships in my minds eye of imagination, I don't feel like doing math! Have a good day, Ed
PS: Enjoyed your audiophile stuff, HF. I've got some great Soviet vacuum tubes in my Fender Blues DeVille guitar amp!
"I do believe that personal circumstances and bad luck cause some people to be poor and that they should be helped, but to deny that great educational and economic opportunity exists in the USA is just silly."There are people who came to the US with nothing, basically. Just what they were wearing and what was in their pockets, if they even had those. They became multi-millionaires, IMO, because they saw what was here, came up with a plan, used it and saw it through. They considered themselves lucky just to not have the same pitiful existance. Remember Wang Computers? He's a good example. My physics professor is another. They try things and if they fail completely, it still can't be as bad as where they were. I went to high school with someone who came here when the USSR invaded Prague. They weren't poor but when someone asked how they lived, he said "We didn't live, we existed". His education was typical, as far as the schools he attended but in freshman algebra, he was totally bored. He did the same material in what would be our third grade. He works for NASA now.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I had a friend who was a fellow Navy Officer and helicopter pilot when I knew him - he was one of the "Vietnamese Boat People" of the mid-to-late 1970s. He remembered sitting on the dock in Hong Kong with a bunch of other people who had survived a passage at sea in a small boat - owning nothing, not even a shirt. His father had recently been killed by the North Vietnamese, he had been in prison as a teenager and several of his extended family were missing in VN. At the time that they were on the dock in Hong Kong with his mother and sisters and some uncles and aunts, he said, he didn't know if he was going to wind up in Hong Kong, Singapore, or the USA, or possibly be sent back to Vietnam. They were quarantined at the time. He eventually came to the USA, graduated from USC, did his time in the Navy, flying C-9s at the end of his 20-year career and is an airline pilot now. If you fly anywhere in the USA on commercial airlines, you may fly with him. Goes to show how far you can go if you focus on a goal and never give up.
And yet, how many people are lined up to leave the US vs. how many are looking to get in.
Lots are looking to get into the U.S., mostly from the developing world.
But that irrelevent to what you said. You stated that the U.S. was THE LEADER in all things that matter. That's doesn't mean that you can find a few countries that are worse than the U.S. in a given parameter; that means that the U.S. is #1, or #2, in the parameter in question.
I travel about 100,000 miles a year. I don't know a single Japanese, or Irish, or British, or Scandavanian, or German, or French, or Italian, or (especially) Swiss that would rather live in the U.S. than where they live now ("what, you mean if I get sick, I could end up losing everything I own and be pennyless, if the insurance companies decide I didn't qualifiy for coverage?").
And yes, this is recent. Fifteen years ago, I had cousins in Ireland in the visa lottery, dying to get into the U.S. Now, Ireland is doing the things we used to do, it's the richest country in the EU outside of Luxemberg, my cousins still there are driving BMW's, and none of them would dream of leaving.
You list a lot of general items, where is your data? Is this opinion on your part or do you have facts?
Easy, just check the data complied by the OECD for most of these ; e.g., you're not really going to try to tell me that the Scandanavian countries don't have lower infant mortality than we do, or that Japan doesn't produce alot more engineers than we do? Or the average Korean wouldn't laugh at our internet infrastructure?
The point is, just repeating "we're number 1!" ad nausem isn't gonna keep it so.
And to try to bring this back on topic, who's to say that we wouldn't be more proposerous now that we are, if we had adopted the metric system, and made it easier to export products to other countries?
Edited 10/22/2006 3:54 am by BarryO
Edited 10/22/2006 3:55 am by BarryO
In economic size and power, we are number one by a large margin: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP.pdf
We were ranked number one in 2005 in "economic competiveness" by the World Economic Forum. We dropped to number six this year. The countries ahead of us are , for the most part, small, homogeneous European countries (Scandanavian countries and Switzerland). Singapore, a small heterogeneous country also ranked above us.
According to John Steele Gordon ["An Empire of Wealth"(2004)]:
"While the United States has only 6 per cent of the land and people, it has close to 30 per cent of the world's domestic product, more than three times that of any other country. In virtually every field of economic endeaver, from mining to telecommunications, and by almost every measure, from agricultural production per capita to annual number of books published to number of Nobel Prizes won (more than 42 percent of them), the United States leads the world."
"Its economy, however, is not only the largest in the world, it is the most dynamic and innovative as well. Virtually every major development in technology in the twentieth century--which was far and away the most important century in the history of technology--originated in the United States or was principally industrialized and turned into consumer products here."
This year, the US swept the Nobel prizes in science and technology.
I'm glad you posted these comments. But my question is why do you think so many of our citizens hold these jingoistic attitudes? It seems to me that these smug ideas of superiority stand in the way of making necessary changes in such institutions as the health care system, the criminal justice system, etc.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I'm glad you posted these comments.
But my question is why do you think so many of our citizens hold these jingoistic attitudes?
I think jingoism is natural, and occurs in many countries (e.g, some European soccer matches). Especially if you are in the lead, it's perhaps easy to assume you got there not by hard work but by birthright, and you don't need to do anything to remain there.
It's the U.S. prevalance I'm concerned about, as that's the one that can be dangerous to our well-being ("we're the leader in economic competitiveness! OK, we're #6, but countries #1-#5 don't count!").
A very smart man once said, "only the paranoid survive", and I see little paranoia and alot of complacancy vis a vie our place in the world. We had alot of paranoia during the Cold War, but at least is pushed us to invest in things that made us economically strong, like the Interstate highway system, education, and huge investments in Science and technology. Now we're steadily decreasing the NSF budget, cutting billions out of the college student loan program, and censoring government-funded scientific research lest it offend the least scientifically educated amongst us.
Even culturally, there's things to worry about. The football player is idolized, the scholar is derided as a "nerd". You think that happens in China, Japan, or India? No way. To a large extent, U.S. pubic universities increasingly see as their major mission to serve as the semi-pro farm system for the NFL and NBA, and de-emphasize scholarship and research. Compare the salary of the football coach to a dep't head, the disparity is probably about 10:1. And this happens with the hearty support of many taxpayers. Again, other countries by and large don't let the major league sports industry corrupt and devalue their university system. It just amazes me we do.
P.S. - Token on-topic comment: Add electrical units to those that are also metric (volts, amperes, ohms, farads, etc.).
Edited 10/23/2006 7:56 pm by BarryO
("we're the leader in economic competitiveness! OK, we're #6, but countries #1-#5 don't count!").
Who said that? I said we were rated number one (by the World Economic Forum) in 2005 and number 6 in 2006 (which is not exactly shabby out of 170 nations). If you want to disagree with me, that's fine. But don't put words in my mouth.
I thought you were mentioning those ratings to support napie's contention that we're the leader in all things that matter. If you weren't, I apologize.
I'm somewhat amazed this hasn't been moved to the Cafe.
What I am trying to point out is that the US is still the world leader in just about anything that matters
They are? What makes you think that? Exactly what do we do better than everyone else besides build weapons? I'll give you pharmaceuticals, but that's the only thing I can think of. I'm sure there's a lot of other things that matter, like electronics.
Most people who love to point out all the flaws here do so without making a true comparison to how the rest of the world really lives. They do that because they get their information from limited and or biased sources and take it for the gospel. Most have never been to the places they hold up as the paragons of virtue and the shining examples of how we should alter our society to be.
It sounds like you haven't, either. Last time I checked, life was pretty good in all the other industrialized countries (Japan, Western Europe, etc.). In many ways, it's much better than here: better healthcare (for everyone, not just the rich), longer lifespans, less disease, less crime, more freedom, fewer people in prison, etc.
Oh, that reminds me of something the US leads the whole world in: incarceration!! Yep, we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country in the world, including communist China! Way to go!!
You want to see a country where people live really well? Go to Switzerland. You call yourself a redneck, but a true redneck likes guns, and here in America we can't even own a fully-automatic assault rifle without paying lots of money and jumping through all kinds of hoops with the FBI. In Switzerland, every male of fighting age is required to keep a fully-automatic assault rifle and a handgun in their home. Other people are also allowed to own these weapons, and any others they desire. Incidentally, their rate of home invasions and burglaries is extremely low (wonder why?), while ours is bad and getting worse.
Sweden also usually ranks as #1 or #2 in the standards-of-living surveys every year.
I'm in Europe once a month, you? Do you own you home? Guess how many people in Switzerland do, 29%, in the US, 59%. In the Netherlands they do not install hot running water in first floor baths, you do not need hot water to wash your hands do you? I like to shower every day, that is far less common in Europe as is washing clothing.
In a very free society, there is likely to be higher rates of incarceration, it is the nature of a less controlled society.
How about that woodworking hobby, in Germany, you could get a visit from the saftey police. How'd you like OHSA to visit your garage shop. Oh yeah, in Germany you can't kill ants, the cops will get you.
Guns I have lots, It is much better in Switzerland, but not as great as it sounds. The balance of Europe will take your guns, and only the VERY well to do have them, they keep them at the club. Also in Switzerland all men under 49 are in the military reserve, that is part of the mandatory gun requirement.
Have you been to Sweden? Income tax rate of over 60% for EVERYONE, I'd be lovin that! These published "standard of living indexes" are apples to onion comparisons.
In a very free society, there is likely to be higher rates of incarceration, it is the nature of a less controlled society.
Ok, you've proven yourself to be either a complete idiot or a liar with this statement.
All the other free countries (Western Europe, etc.) have incarceration rates a fraction of ours. The countries which rival our own rates are places like China, Russia until recently, and South Africa before apartheid was dismantled. We're in great company, huh?
Here's a nice article about it:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040206.html
Free countries don't lock up huge portions of their populations.
Also in Switzerland all men under 49 are in the military reserve, that is part of the mandatory gun requirement.
And there's a problem with this why? We'd probably a lot better off if we had mandatory military service like Germany and Switzerland. Kids here don't learn discipline at home any more.
"Kids here don't learn discipline at home any more." and the US incarceration rate are directly related. I have said it before and I won't stop saying it, gun control (licensing, 7 day waiting periiod, background checks, etc) as a means of making gun purchases by criminals will not work. It may delay their purchases slightly but anyone who doesn't live in a bubble or with their head in the sand knows that if someone wants a gun, they can get one. "Free countries don't lock up huge portions of their populations."Free countries with people who break the laws do and I don't want to hear anything about the drug laws being stupid. Since when are laws to be obeyed selectively?I have yet to hear an emphasis on the fact that the problem is human behavior. We need people to take responsibility for their actions, they need to teach their kids the difference between right and wrong and get them to do what's right, not what's cool. We need to take a good hard look at ourselves as a nation and change what we don't like, as a nation. But we need to look at ourselves objectively, which will never happen. We need to lose the arrogant attitude that our crap doesn't stink, we're the best at everything, we know more than anyone else and that our god is the best god. We need to realize that if the individuals don't give a crap about each other, the whole suffers greatly. Politicians don't say these things because they'll lose votes. Parents don't say them because Dr. Phil will say that their kids' feelings will be hurt. Teachers can't discipline the kids or the parents will sue them and the school board because everyone wants someone else to pay for their "suffering", even though it's their lack of parenting skills that caused the problem in the first place. Kids want nothing more than to be cool, which means that they have unmet needs. Sure, these needs have been unmet in other generations but those kids knew that if they did something wrong, they usually paid for it when the parent(s) found out. I'm surprised the parents of the kids who shot up Columbine didn't sue the police for killing their kids.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
All,
As long as we're talking about guns & such, the weapons you're allowed in Switzerland are MILITARY weapons....the ammo is sealed and you face severe penalties for unauthorized opening of that ammo.
In Germany, it takes a YEAR of continuous attendance at gun club meetings before you even start to qualify to own a hand gun. Miss a meeting (it doesn't matter why -- major surgery, vacations, etc.....) and the year starts over again. And...you allowed to own only two hand guns...want a third?....sell one of your current ones.
From having lived in das Vaterland for 12 years, I would say that there is, in fact, less freedom -- actually LIBERTY -- in Europe than in the US. Yes, the roads are better, the public transportation is better (but remember that most European countries are about the size of Iowa), the health care access is largely universal (but generally at a cost -- it's NOT free), etc. There are many thing that I liked, enjoyed, and admired about Europe, but Liberty is not one of them; we have MUCH more of it here in the US.
So....whether you view Europe or America as a better place to live depends largely on your perspective and what you expect. Both places have significant advantages, as well as disadvantages. Take your pick....
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 10/23/2006 5:22 pm by pzgren
Mr Cooper's post just struck me as narrow minded and reminded me of the many times I've run into this type of attitude in various jobs I've held and the business I operated for many years.
As to your other concerns:
aerospace - the science and technology most likely all developed in metric
pharmaceutical - all metric (see your prescriptions, if you have any)
arms/ammunition/defense - metric ( I don't believe we are still producing xx inch guns)
most arrogant about which way is better - you make the call
The subject is more about choosing a system and adapting to it..not which is better, the majority should probably decide which will work best. The end results will be pretty much the same. It is simply what is the easiest and least confusing way of getting there. Somewhere along the way one will have to convert to the other and the resistance in accepting that seems to be the larger problem for many, never mind the act itself. I would guess that most of the trouble lies with attitude and acceptance for those not yet initiated. In that respect, we should do better.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
You people ever seen this? http://www.bobsrule.com/
Looks pretty nice. But the prices are a bit ridiculous. Anyone using these rules?
I agree with the rest of your post, but this bit is incorrect:
arms/ammunition/defense - metric ( I don't believe we are still producing xx inch guns)
This isn't true outside of America, of course, but here in the US, defense/arms/ammunition are still mostly imperial. Many military things have converted to metric in order to cooperate with NATO allies (such as using 9mm handguns, designating our rifle ammunition as 5.65 x 35 (I forget the length) instead of .223 Remington (which isn't exactly the same kind of round anyway), 20mm cannons, etc. But older weapons and calibers which are still extremely popular in the civilian market are still imperial: .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, .30 rifles, etc. Even non-US gunmakers use imperial measurements for rounds, even though the precise dimensions are probably in metric: the Swiss gun maker SIG introduced a new handgun round a few years ago called "357 SIG", which was intended to perform the same as a 357 Magnum but in a cartridge suitable for an automatic pistol rather than a revolver. The European gunmakers also produce lots of guns in .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .380, etc.
In the Navy, to my knowledge, everything is still Imperial. I worked at Newport News in the 90s on aircraft carriers and submarines, and everything in them was imperial. I doubt it's changed since then. I don't know how the Air Force is with its newer planes.
I stand corrected.
Great post, BTW, you carried it further and better than I could. I thought that I was the only one that felt this way.
Please don't get me wrong. I love this country as much as anyone. But, I really get sick and tired of the arrogance and ignorance and the implication that because I do not wave the flag fervently that I am any less patriotic. I question many values and statements because that is how I was raised. Question, learn, adapt.
There is such a feeling of fear of speaking out because some are so willing to equate questioning authority with being unpatriotic, of shouting someone down because they differ, of questioning your motives because you dare think for yourself.
Mr Cooper's comment, way back, about the hating of metric and the good ol'USA just set me off. I've had enough of that stuff.
I'm surprised this thread is still here. Not deleted or moved to the CAFE.
my best to all.....Jim...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
I see in one of your posts that you were brought up to question values, me too. One thing I question is the moral value mess the baby boomers left this nation, no moral center, high divorce rates, single parent families, etc. Their children have little respect for them and they seem have a personal loathing for anything sure of its beliefs.
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“In all affairs it is a healthy thing to now and then hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted” – Bertram Russell<!----><!---->
Regards,
Sonny
Agreed,
I'm married to the same love for 39+ years.
Tom Brokaw's "The Greatest Generation" and his follow up prove your point as well. We were handed the world and we screwed it up. Psycho babble and all. In many ways though, our parents (my generation) went overboard in their enthusiasm to give us a new start and allowed us(young ones when we were) to get away with stuff no one else ever did. Hippies and the 60's is a case in point. This would deserve another thread.
We have to work out of it. In the meantime, even though you and I don't agree on a few points, We, collectively, have got to get our heads out of our a---s and join the rest of the world. There is no way around it anymore.
In the meantime I'll continue in my hobby using both systems and try to educate my grandchildren and great-grandchild (yes, I have 1) to learn all disciplines....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Add to your list all sciences use the metric system. As for the majority deciding which system to use. That was done quite some time ago. The US and possibly one other country are the only industrial countries in the world using the imperial system. Besides wasting a lot of time and accuracy it is hurting our foreign trade.
agreed............The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Well, I knew I'd open a can of worms...:-) I'm not trying to be narrow minded, even though on the surface that sounds like it. Here is the deal. I have used metric for many years, I was a technician in the automotive industry for nearly 30 years. Along that way we changed from standard to metric and the switch was slow in coming, some parts were metric some standard and you never knew which one to grab until you fumbled through it for a while. Now the metric is second nature on the car stuff. The only thing is, I don't have to do a lot of changing values from one to the other. In woodworking I use standard stuff and all of my drawings are standard with one exception. My deal is I'd have to get the calculator out if all my drawings started being metric or retool my measuring devices to metric. I still don't like the names of the increments but that is personal t me, and I know I don't stand alone on that. I would not care if everything was one or the other, it is the change that makes me fuss the most. Yes I am an old dog that doesn't like change....While in the automotive field there were instances where doing engine measurements that conversions did not work out perfectly as someone stated. There can be a margin of error if you are in certain situations, and that is the way it is. I used standard mics for all that time, metric mics were and still are somewhat hard to find if you are not super wealthy, and I'm talking those that will go into the 120mm range, not the small ones. Anyway, I do work with both systems but I don't like it. I currently teach automotive classes and have to teach the metric stuff for measuring engines, and I still find students that struggle with it because they are still teaching both in some schools, maybe they should drop the standard system? Like I tell folks about cars, they are all hard to work on if you don't understand them but they are easy to work on if you know them inside and out. That goes with the metric stuff, and I don't know it inside and out like second nature yet.
I understand the frustration. BUT (here it comes), now that we know you are an educator I have to stress something here.
Your opinions are your opinions and I have no problem with that. What set me off was the PRESENTATION. You are in a position we do not all share. The ability to mold minds and influence people on how to think as well as do. Ya' gotta' be careful with that. Preface your comments, temper them, if you will and be honest about where you stand at the beginning.
You can't just make a statement such as that and walk away and then tell us you're an instructor. Think it through first. You can do better and the younger ones deserve better.
We aren't trying to teach "a system", we're trying to agree on a process to benefit all....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Your opinions are your opinions and I have no problem with that. What set me off was the PRESENTATION. You are in a position we do not all share. The ability to mold minds and influence people on how to think as well as do. Ya' gotta' be careful with that. Preface your comments, temper them, if you will and be honest about where you stand at the beginning.You are right on that point and I didn't think about that before I spoke. One thing I do in class is teach the metric measures as far as the class needs it to go, I understand it enough to do engine measurements and so long as there isn't measurements in standard and specs in metric we are all fine. If they are all the same across the board, we cruise through it with no problem. I keep my opinions on the systems to myself in class, and allow the students to express their feelings, and about half think like I do, half think like many of the others on this board do. From my students point of view, what they get is very positive on the whole experience even though I had less that positive experiences in the dealership setting where I came from. If asked point blank about my experience in the workforce as a tech, I tell them what my experience was like after I tell them that not all dealers are like the ones that I worked for, and there are better and worse, so I would assume that is the preface that you speak of. I do think about that before hand. Guess I got caught with my mind in neutral on this one huh? :-)
Fair enough. "Good" on ya' for teaching. I don't know as I would have the patience.
Jim...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Aerospace- I don't know how much attention you pay to space exploration but the Mars lander that crunched into the surface on its way in did that because someone used the wrong units. A chute was supposed to deploy at 60 miles and Km was entered when it was programmed. It came in kinda hot.Arms/ammo- caliber is the decimal size of the round, e.g., .45 cal, .38 cal, etc.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I thought we out produce, innovate and develop any nation on the planet.
Hello! 1970 has called, and wants you back! Have you been sleeping in a cave for 35 years? We don't outproduce anyone; haven't you noticed that everything is made in China now? Even all our woodworking tools are made in Taiwan or China, and what few are left here are going to Mexico fast.
The only thing we do better in the US is out-litigate each other, and produce more law school grads than anyone. How this helps anyone I have no idea.
Let's see, who else has twelve carrier battle groups?
And this is good why? Defense is important, yes, but it's a cost and liability, not an asset you can trade with. Are we selling any of those $3 billion carriers to other countries? Nope. We do sell a few fighter jets to other countries, but that's really about all the business we do in defense. Mostly, it's a huge burden on the taxpayer.
That would be the same ones who have put a man on the moon.
See my comment on 1970 above. When was the last time we landed a man on another celestial body? I believe it was around the time I was born. What have we done since then? Mostly, we sat on our asses and wasted billions on the stupid and unproductive Shuttle program. Yippee. At least we're finally making a little progress with the Mars explorers, but we're nowhere near the level of accomplishments we made in the 60s. Worse, other countries (including India and China) are catching up fast and have programs to send their own people to the Moon. So much for our leadership in space.
They also build stealth bombers,
This is in the same category as aircraft carriers.
lead the world in pharmaceutical development,
Finally! We found something we can still do in America! At least for now; since Americans don't graduate college with degrees in science and engineering any more, this will be changing in the future.
have the most valued currency,
Sorry, the Euro I believe has that distinction currently, and the GPB is pretty strong too. The Euro's been gaining on the dollar a lot. With the way things are going, expect the Dollar to be devalued in the next couple of decades and the Euro to be the de facto currency for international trade.
and send lots of relief to those advance states that have long ago adopted the metric system.
Oh really? I don't recall us ever sending aid to any Western European countries or Japan. We've send aid to third-world countries, but just because they were smart enough to adopt the same system of measure as all the advanced countries doesn't automatically make them "advanced" as well, only following the leaders.
BTW, on the topic of defense, we've now litigated many of our gunmakers out of business, so it's looking almost certain that our next generation of small arms (handguns and assault rifles) will be purchased from European gunmakers. We already get our handguns (M9) from Italy, the M16's replacement is next, and will probably come from H&K in Germany. So we can't even supply our own military with basic infantry guns any more. Even the French make their own guns.
Edited 10/20/2006 8:44 pm ET by dwolsten
Boy am I glad you were not around in '41, I'd be speaking German. You must not like it here.
We have sent the lower value products overseas, this happens generation or so. Those who do not advance of course get left behind, talk about living in the past.
Having a strong navy has done more to keep us secure than any military action we have ever taken.
I'll agree about NASA, but, we still are the best at it.
The Euro has done well, but their economies are not growing and have little room to. The dollar is still the standard and looks to remain so for a long time to come.
Aid to Europe? I think it was call the Marshall Plan.
M9's are made in New Jersey. Our arms industry is gaining strength, my Ed Brown Cobra carry is unmatched. Kimber has proven to be a profitable operation. Even S&W has found its roots again and is back in the fold.
<<<<
32201.69 in reply to 32201.60
Boy am I glad you were not around in '41, I'd be speaking German. You must not like it here.>>>>>
....this is exactly the kind of stupid ####, crappy thinking and comments I was referring to...but hey, it is a FREE country, as long as you pay your dues.....Right?
Comments like that are not an oops, excuse me kind of thing. To write them you really have to mean it. Face to face you probably wouldn't be so inclined.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Name the place. I've been shot at by better.
My apologies to all. I shouldn't have posted .74.
I deleted that message as it was in poor taste, I should have followed my tag line.
bum...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
You're an #### and an idiot. There's just no other way to say this.
We have sent the lower value products overseas, this happens generation or so. Those who do not advance of course get left behind, talk about living in the past.
Lower value products? So microprocessors and software are lower value products now? Tell me, what exactly are the high value products now? Law degrees?
Aid to Europe? I think it was call the Marshall Plan.
Hey stupid, what aid have we given to Europe in the past few decades? Last time I checked, they're doing fine on their own. Things that happened before you were born don't count, any more than events in Roman times reflect on the modern state of Italy.
M9's are made in New Jersey.
By an Italian-owned company. According to you, it was just yesterday that we were fighting them. Also, the M9 has a terrible reputation among much of the military, which is why many Marines abandoned them and had their families send them M1911s in Iraq.
Our arms industry is gaining strength, my Ed Brown Cobra carry is unmatched. Kimber has proven to be a profitable operation. Even S&W has found its roots again and is back in the fold.
And which of these have military contracts?
Name calling, the province of the unimaginative.
<<Name calling, the province of the unimaginative. >>Is that the best you can do...........?Putting up a counter-arguement is not name calling.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"At least for now; since Americans don't graduate college with degrees in science and engineering any more,"That's just plain wrong. Our lower level schools aren't as good as many of those in some other countries when you refer to grade and graduation averages but there are still many Americans who graduate in science and engineering. I agree that we need more but I disagree when you state it as an absolute."We don't outproduce anyone; haven't you noticed that everything is made in China now? Even all our woodworking tools are made in Taiwan or China, and what few are left here are going to Mexico fast."This is caused by market forces and corporations that want more profits. These countries just produce things for a lot less than the US can because everything costs more here."I don't recall us ever sending aid to any Western European countries or Japan."Huh? What happened after WWI and WWII? Hello! High School called and wants YOU back.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
<<Oh really? I don't recall us ever sending aid to any Western European countries or Japan. >> Ever hear of the Marshall Plan???Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
The reason we use imperial is not laziness,it is what a lot of us old a***s grew up with,and why should we change just to please them Frenchys across the channel,thats why I buy all my plans and tools from the states,keep our Imperial, or is that a dirty word these days,up the Paddys, Gob.<(:->Gobeen <!----><!---->
Are you still hitching up old Nellie to go to the store, wiping your butt with corncobs and treating your headache with leeches?------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Bonjour Mon Ami,
Q'est que c'est avec toi? I wish you'd really tell me how you feel. Be careful now.
I grew up stateside, learned imperial at school and Dad taught me metric. Prior to the war he worked for Fisher Body in Pontiac, Michigan but became proficient with metric due to his army medical training. My Dad was a GI, spent some time in your beautiful country and then went to do his thing with a lot of other guys across the Channel. It was there that he met and married my Mother. Yours truly was born a US citizen in France. Now my auntie on Mother's side happened to take a fancy to one of you blokes and her home changed from Boulogne-sur-mer to Folkeston, Kent. She lived on your side for over 40 years. Her son, my cousin went to Oxford and was a Captain in your British army. So, you see. We're almost cousins. (he said, winking)
When I say be careful, I mean it. One phone call and I'll have my cousins in Boulogne pull the plug on that tunnel and you folks will have to get by on the surface again and miss out on all that good wine, cheese and cuisine. :0)
Seriously, I've been to these schools, have children and grandchildren in and through these schools and when I say they are lazy I refer to the entire system and a large portion of the students. I know them firsthand. (By your profile I can say we are almost the same age.) But that is our problem, I guess.
Anyway, enjoy your hobby, your tools and any system you wish to use. It is the end product that counts and having a good time is why we do this. N'est pas?
Au revoir monsieur, Jim
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Edited 10/27/2006 1:18 am by oldbeachbum
The reason we use imperial is not laziness,it is what a lot of us old a***s grew up with,and why should we change ...
I guess that's why advertisers only care about marketing to the 18-49 group, and the younger the better. Too many old fogies are too set in their ways to change anything...
Too right - never could get used toi that oddball Impoerial system so I'm still using metric
Scrit
Hi ppl, well I think you are really funnin me,cause you can't speel either,long live the States and stick to Imperial, GOB.<(:->Gobeen <!----><!---->
Sorry this is going to be a long rambling post but I thought I would lay out the sheer oddness of the English system used on a daily basis by most english people..
Tape measures and rules all have both on.
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Fuel is sold in litres; distances are all in Miles, fuel economy in measured in miles per gallon?
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Sheet materials are in feet, 8 by 4, or a metric equivalent 1.2m by 2.4m unless you come across continental boards that are 2.5m by 1.25m. In thickness it is usually a metric conversion from imperial e.g. 12.5mm
<!----><!---->
Timber is sold by the meter in length but generally by the inch in size, but roughly converted to the nearest metric (most of the time). Sometimes it’s metric, especially if it’s regularised in continental machinery. In terms of volume it is talked about in cubic feet and then sold to you in cubic meters, god forbid you get the prices mixed up when you quote.
<!----><!---->
When screws are bought, then woodscrews tend to be imperial numbers while chipboard screws are generally metric, though they have the nearest imperial conversion on the box. Nuts and bolts are all metric except for pipe fittings which are generally BSP (imperial), unless they are continental.
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Paint is sold in litres; brushes are marked up in inch widths.
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All this craziness may sound a problem but on the contrary if you have two systems you can choose the best one for the job. When I measure up I stretch out the tape and if the dimension is close to an imperial mark I use that and if it’s metric I use that. I have pieces of paper that have measurements in both on the same line. I may write 6’4” plus 3mm clearance. I can and do use both daily, and wouldn’t be without either.
It certainly keeps you mentally active if nothing else.
What I've wondered for some time. Do you have a standard ceiling height. And if in metric what is the measurement?
Hi,I once bought and renovated a grand old house to sell,took longer than thought so we spent two Xmass/s. in there,the ceilings were twenty one feet up,when I went to buy a Xmass tree I was being picky(her indoors said to be) the lady said said funny sod do you live in a mansion,I lied and said yes,she gave me the best tree weve ever had,strange people the English,still I digres,what was your question again,lol, GOB <(:->Gobeen <!----><!---->
HI,my brain is not that good,so I just bluff my way ,but usually get a good job done, GOB <(:->Gobeen <!----><!---->
Ah, don't forget milk and beer. Milk delivered to the door in England has to be in pint bottles (that's 20 fluid ounces for the Americans here) and beer bought in pubs has to be served in pint glasses, and it's illegal to sell metric measures of beer in pubs. Although wine and spirits are legally required to be sold in ml in pubs.Then when I go to the supermarket, fresh milk is sold in 568ml packs - that's 1 pint, but the packs have to be labelled with the metric size first. To help compare different brands, supermarkets also have to label them with a price per litre. Unless, of course, it's goats' milk or flavoured cows' milk or heat-treated longlife cows' milk, which has to be sold in 1l packs. And the beer in the supermarket has to be sold in metric bottles, 500ml, the same beer that I have by law to buy in pint glasses in the pub.Metrication in England is used as a wedge issue by tabloids trying to sell to xenophobes - google "metric martyrs" for the sordid details. Personally, I'm against capital punishment, but I'm willing to make an exception for metric martyrs.
I have used English measurement units all of my life, including in an Engineering environment. I prefer English units for woodworking. I have a 10" table saw, a 16" bandsaw, a 12 1/2" thickness planer, an 8" jointer and I buy 4/4, 6/4, 8/4, etc, lumber. I would be fine if everything was suddenly converted to Metric, but given that I will probably have these tools for the rest of my life, Metric for my furniture building is pretty much out of the question. I bought a couple of steel rules today. The ones that had both Metric and English units are still on the shelf in the store. I'm not interested in trying to work with both systems. Give me one or the other and since it is still my choice, I'll keep working in inches, thank you very much.
20 or so years ago there was a movement in the US to convert to metric -- and I think they even set a schedule.
I've built a few things in metric, and it sure is a lot easier, once you are accustomed to it.
It would be interesting to know what interest groups in this country derailed the conversion. I would think that anybody who manufacturers something would be in favor of metric -- given the heavy emphasis on international trade.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
This issue comes up on a fairly regular basis, and for good reason. Speaking as someone who is perfectly at home in either system, there's no doubt that the metric is a more user-friendly invention.You asked about interest groups who are opposed - there are quite a few actually. Manufacturers of pipes, bolts, aluminum profiles, steel profiles, just to name a very few. If the US switched to metric, they would have to retool serious machinery, not to mention the need to maintain imperial-sized stockpiles of everything for a generation of transition.Of course the major obstacle is simply people's mental laziness. The switch to metric will be made one day, when the realities of global commerce eventually sink down to the level of the average businessman.
For now I actually think that clinging to Imperial is somewhat endearing, in a quaint kind of way.best,
DR
I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Manufacturers of pipes, bolts, aluminum profiles, steel profiles, just to name a very few.
Not only would they incur a big expense for re-tooling, but if we went metric, that would mean that manufactuers from all over the world would be able to export to us without having to go to the expense of creating a special factory just to export to the US.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Other countries already export to us. What it would really do is allow US manufacturers to export to other countries.
Other countries already export to us. What it would really do is allow US manufacturers to export to other countries.
I realize this, my point was more directed at the smaller outfits on both sides of the import/export divide where they make a quality product in metric or imperial, but would incur a large cost to tool up for the other standard as well AND deal with the import/export regulations and marketing. They might be at a point where they could afford one or the other but not both, even though they MIGHT increase their business and profits. If we went strictly metric, imperial would still be needed for years to come - just for replacement parts.
I do not know for certain, but someone once told me ( warning - hearsay ) that the metric was adopted in the late 1700's or early 1800's but never enforced and so imperial remained in place. As a child of the 50's & 60's I remember it being mandated that we would switch to metric before Y2K - never happened of course.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
You are correct in thinking that business has a vested interest in going to metric measurements.
I work in the Automotive field (in SE Michigan, its that or starve - or both) and ALL american built vehicles designed in the last 20 years have been in metric. The last design I saw in imperial was for the convertible top for the Chrysler LeBaron Convertible. They found the designer who had done the top for the 67 Cadillac and had him design it - he designed it in imperial and then erased the 5 inch lines and laid down 100 millimeter lines over it. Everythins was a bastard size!
Surprisingly the only imperial units left are for steel, which is still bought in inches and pounds - even from Japan and Russia! (and Canada for the person who was so pleased that Canada metricized (grin))
In fact some of the mid 70's cars had fasteners with metric threads and imperial heads so that mechanics did not need new tools right away. (does anybody remember whitworth fasteners? talk about a strange measuring system!)
It is all a matter of what you are used to. There is nothing sacred about any of the measurement lengths.
I'm going to reveal my total ignorance re: autos, but are you saying that all the nuts,bolts, etc. in US made stuff is metric?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I'm going to reveal my total ignorance re: autos, but are you saying that all the nuts,bolts, etc. in US made stuff is metric?
It is now. It sure took them long enough to switch, though. If you ever work on any 80s-90s US cars, you better have both metric and imperial wrenches handy, because those cars are a jumble of both.
I live in the UK but go back to Arkansas each year for Thanksgiving with family. Last year I tried at Lowes and Home Depot to source a simple 1/4-20 bolt to replace a lost one on an old camera tripod. No luck. Plenty of 6 and 8mm bolts, tho.
t
Yes, and they have been since the '80s. If you try SAE wrenches on them, they'll be loose although in a lot of cases, will still work. Metric wrenches will definitely fit better.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
There may be a few exceptions, but yes, virtually all fasteners and measurements used in US auto manufacture are metric. Sole exception is steel, the engineers specify in metric and is converted to english for purchase. Even die designers work in metric, with the blank/coil width specified in english. If the steel companies come around, then all automotive will be metric. I have worked in the supply base, and now work for DaimlerChrysler in supplier quality so I have daily contact with design and measurement of parts and tools. Thinking about it, bearing sizes have been standardized since english days - so they may still be in english, but most likely have been converted to metric so it fits the software (CAD) better.
Yes, you use metric wrenches on your DaimlerChrysler, made and designed in North America.
I would guess that 98% of the bearings used today are metric. Check you Baldor motor or any motor, my 20 year Powermatic jointer used metric bearings.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
If the bearings are metric, do they then grind down the shaft end to fit imperial size pulley or has the change extended to the pulley bore also?
Motor shafts have many diameters, the largest is for the stator. If you look at the pulley end you will see the larger diameter for the bearing sticking out 1/16" to 1" as this length varies with the manufacture. A motor with a 5/8" OD shaft will use a 6203 or 6303 bearing. These bearing have a 17MM ID which is slightly bigger than 5/8". The bearings on my old Powermatic cutter head were 6203 bearings and the pulley shaft OD was 5/8". The 6203 bearing has a 17MM ID, 40MM OD and is 12MM wide, 6000 series bearings are metric. Also, bearing size is sometimes shown on the motor nameplate. The Baldor motor on my air compressor uses 6203 and a bigger 6205 bearing on the drive end. The 6205 has a ID of 25MM and the pulley ID is 7/8" (.875") (22.225MM).
I wish we converted to metric 30 years ago when it was suggested.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Thanks, never cease learning.
I wish we converted to metric thirty 30 ago when it was suggested. We are together on that. It's like we cut a cats tail off just a little at a time so it will hurt less.
If whole industries (e.g. auto) are moving toward metric already, then what's your theory on why there is no official conversion policy?If we convert, somebody's ox will be gored (I assume), I just don't know whose.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Why would we need an official policy?
NO measurement system for length has any huge advantage or "naturalness" to it.
Yes, I know they changed the length of a meter ever so slightly to define it as the wavelength of Krypton (?) (not sure of the gas), but that was so that a definitive length would be readily available for comparisons to measuring tools. The original meter stick was kept in Paris, France; and if you have ever been to Greenwich, England you can see a public "yard" stick for comparing your imperial measurment tool to.
Systems are an agreement among users so that when I say something is 35 "mikes" long, you know what that means, and can measure it out using your own tools.
You dont like the system? Dont use it! Or create your own - anyone remember the article on "Bobs" or bought a ruler marked in them? The ad is still running in the magazines - "Bobs Rule"
Official is not necessary. Business will use what is best for business, People will use what they wish, and eventually the society will come to an agreement. Some will still hold out for their favorites, but hey! that's their right! (Did you know that some shops in England still work on shillings and pence? England went to a metric "new pence" in 1970!)
This is a fun discussion, but ultimately will not change anything. Back to the shop!!
please don't take this the wrong way but I really like your personal quote...very good !!
bum
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
Metric.
I've used both and it boils down to it doesn't matter to me, I can work both at the same time. Computers work in decimal, inch and metric, so when doing CAD or CAM it's irrelevant what the units are.
The basic problem with Imperial units is people equate that to fractions, feet, and yards. If you work in decimal inches, the inch-metric debate disappears completely. Working with decimal inches is exactly the same as working with centimeters. Just learn a few fraction values like 0.015 (1/64), 0.031 (1/32) 0.4375 (7/16) etc and you can measure as close as your eyes can see with any tape measure or scale.
We had Machinists here at work who could measure to 0.005" with a scale marked in hundredths of an inch.
Decimal inches - works for me at work and home. Why anyone would use a dial caliper marked in fractions is beyond me.
Yes decomal can solve many problems.
For me the real problem is going from one sub-unit to another. For example 3.28ft are 39.37in whereas 3.28 m is 328cm is 3280 mm. If you can live with say inches for all your length measurements you are cool.Good deal though: for the same price imperial units (for length) give you essentially four separate systems (miles, yards, feet, inches), metric gives just one single boring consistent system...
Really more systems than that -- 1/2, 1/4, 1,8, 1/16.... And then you have chains, rods etc.
I'm a 48 yo american and I use both the metric and imperial systems. Since most all of my tape measures and rulers are imperial, I still design and layout my projects using the imperial system.
I use metric when I have to do something like divide an area into 3rds or 4ths--it's much easier to divide a mm measurement (say, 120mm) than to divide up mixed fractions like 9 13/16".
I suspect all it would really take for me to switch completely would be to get metric measuring tools. I find metric so much easier to work with, but that comes in part because I've used it already. People who claim it's too confusing just haven't used it much.
"People who claim it's too confusing just haven't used it much."I agree to a large extent but I also think that a lot of people decided that they didn't want to use it before they ever learned anything about it. My dad worked at Harley-Davidson and when they started introducing it, a lot of the older guys were against it. I started getting into it in 6th or 7th grade ('68 or '69) and really didn't, and still don't, care which I have to use. I couldn't understand why they were so against it and some of them would just get PO'd when I would try to explain it. Could be that they just weren't good at math or couldn't grasp it for some other reason, like they were trying to make conversions before they knew anything about it. Maybe they were just bitter about their lives and any change was a bad thing, who knows?When you're machining metals and working with decimal (instead of fractions) anyway, I don't know if there's much benefit to metric. For manufacturing, I think staying with one standard or the other is more important than which is actually chosen. Working to .0001" is fine, working wood doesn't require that kind of accuracy.Dividing any dimension into thirds or other group is easy and doesn't require any particular type of scale. Anyone who has taken a drafting class should be able to do it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Now if that isn't just the pot calling the kettle black!!!! I'm just a patriot, love the USA, fought for her, watched friends die for her, got family fighting for her now. Lord knows it has its faults, but there is no place better. BTW, I'm no fan of "W", bad president for the most part. But yeah, I am wraped in the flag. "Some do their duty, others let someone do it for them".
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf” – Geo. Orwell
When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. --Sinclair Lewis
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
<<Some do their duty, others let someone do it for them".>>
What makes you so special. I did mine in Viet Nam, smart mouth. Now shut up and move on, sonny....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
I did not read every word posted as replys to your question, but I thought I would give you my opinion as it was pretty easy to get the gist of what was going on with a quick scan.
It seems rather silly to consider that we use one or the other but not both. I use both in my shop (yes I have a metric tape measure too), and use both in my life.
It just comes down to a matter of measurement or money. It's all the same, really.
The strong opinions that some have expressed seem a bid odd, I think. They remind me of a fellow I have known for years that still doesn't own or use a computer. He is well educated, but retired (but not all that old), and was one of the best building inspectors I have ever come across. He actually used his brain rather than the book to make the best decisions on things. His lack of a computer use comes from (I am theorizing) both fear and a lack of knowledge. I know he would be amazed at how easy computers are to use, and how benign they are.
The metric system is simple, just as the imperial system is simple. It is all the same, really. Whether measuring with a metric tape measure or an imperial one, it is just a matter of counting the marks, and using the numbers for reference so things can be repeated or referred to. In reality it doesn't matter if you are using inches, centimeters, two fingers of whiskey, or whatever, it is just a size reference.
You should all just use them both, and consider yourselves smarter for it.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
hello ,we use inches and feet because we have always dun it thata way! is it better or just different? why do you drive on the wrong side of the street? we could cange to metric tommorow but then we would have to buy duplicate tooling etc etc etc however arrogant it seems to the rest of the world that we do not use metric lets leave it alone and let every one else do it our way
hello ,we use inches and feet because we have always dun it thata way! is it better or just different? why do you drive on the wrong side of the street? we could cange to metric tommorow but then we would have to buy duplicate tooling etc etc etc however arrogant it seems to the rest of the world that we do not use metric lets leave it alone and let every one else do it our way
Citydude, Speak for yourself. I use metric for much of my work as a builder/remodeler. Although Congress has had the right to "fix the Standards of Weights and Measures" from the beginning (Art. I, Section 8 of the Constitution), it has never done so. We don't have an official measuring system and you are free to use imperial for as long as you want. There are no woodworking police outside of Germany.
As far as resisting a "conversion" to metric, it's a little late in the game for that. In the US, metric is now used almost exclusively in science, medicine and manufacturing. New swimming pools and tracks are laid out in meters. Household goods are often packaged in metric containers. The federal government and most state governments now do business in metric.
You can rest assured that we will probably never have a federal law mandating a switch to metric. On the other hand, as a society we use metric more with each new year. The demise of the foot and the inch will be slow and painful but it's a foregone conclusion. If you think otherwise, you've got your head in the sand.
I think there is one imperial unit that will die a very, very slow death and that is the mile. The western United States is laid out in square miles (sections). Those tracts are often bounded by roads or at least fence lines. To change it to kilometers would mean changing the road system and fractional ownership of pieces of land. Oh what a messup that would be.
Do you think that if we go back to horse and buggy that the rest of the world will follow?
Just to let you know I am from washington d.c which when I last checked was part of the USA. I can't believe that some many peopl are saying "Screw the world make them do it our way." There are more countries in the world than The USA. And almost all of them use the metric system. And even we use it in almost everything else. Look on every package of food you buy, calories and protiens and sugers and cards are all measured in grams. I understand that USA would have to invest a lot of money to makke the switch. Do I think they should NO. I think that the 2 can live side by side. But to think that one way is better solely because it's what is used in The USA is absurd.Kaleohttp://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Kaleo
I use the proper Whitworth system of course! If I ever expect to be appointed to become a royal cabinet maker to the queen I'm required to..
Besides that way nobody can ever complain if things don't measure up!
;-)
I'm in Canada, officially metric, but in the woodbotchery business, Imperial is a defacto standard.
I use both.
A saw blade with a 1/8 kerf don't fit well into the metric system (3.175mm), and that thar russhian baltic birch plywood has just as much variance in thickness as any stuff made to imperial measurement.
Designers here specify in metric sometimes, imperial sometimes, but it don't matter cause the walls/corners is never plumb or square. Yer filler pieces don't care if they are measured in metric or imperial, cause they is scribed.
Now I dunno about the metric tape measures marketed in totally metric countries, but if they are anything like the quality of the tape measures marketed here-in either metric or imperial, unless you is ascertaining accuracy of each tape when it enters yer shop to assure yerself it has some modicum of accuracy, any ease of manipulation of numbers could easily be defeated by simple measuring tool "slop" or outright manufacturing errors.
Hey, I got a new "off the shelf" tape, a new "off the shelf" caliper, both mfgd by seemingly reputable firms, both purchased at reputable wwing stores, and both of em got a 1.6mm error in em at the 2' mark. (about 1/16th")
There might be a reason why folks use such exquistly simplistic and plebian solutions as "story sticks" which care not a hoot if yer hatch marks are metric or imperial.
These days I is using machinists tools to set my fence scales, check my thicknesses etc. Seems to me like the machinists tools is becoming the last bastion of reliable accuracy available.
Eric in Calgary
disclaimer: I'm British with an almost-all-metric woodwork shop. The only inch tools I can think of are cheap router bits that come in kits made, I presume, in the far east for the US market. All my drills are metric; all the screws are metric; all the rulers and tape measures are metric-only.Rather than mm and inches, the most annoying measurements used to be gauge numbers - a number 8 screw, 14G wire, a number 22 drill. Gauges require you to have conversion charts tacked on the wall. What drill should I use for .2mm clearance with an M5 bolt? 5.2mm. What number drill should I use for 10 thou clearance with a number 10 screw? (Don't answer that!)About a decade ago, inch-gauge woodscrews started to die out here, and UK volume sales are now metric. (Nuts and bolts went metric in the 60s and 70s.) One day I took all my considerable stock of inch-gauge woodscrews and gave them to a retired neighbour, and spent £50 on a stock of metric woodscrews. What a great day! Life became much simpler.My experience is that it's less easy to make mistakes in an all-metric, no-gauge-number shop.
I recently checked all my steel rules against steel tapes and to each other to the extent that they could be tested side by side. This was brought on by letters to the editor in Fine Woodworking concerning allowable variances in steel tapes in the US. Maybe I have been exceedingly lucky but all my measuring 'sticks' in metric, in sizes 15, 30, 60, and 100cm with tapes of 3 and 5m were bang on accurate to each other. Years ago when I started to do serious woodworking as a hobby I bought a Rabone steel and added additional lengths later. The tapes are combo imperial and metric, metric on the top and imperial on bottom of the tapes but dead accurate when measuring the metric scale to the steels. All were purchased in UK and Germany and are of European manufacture. Maybe the tolerance allowances are tighter here. Granted they are not the cheapest but they serve me well. I grew up with the US system but had no trouble converting totally to the metric when I moved to Europe almost thirty years ago.
Hello Kaleo,
I also spent the first 22 years of my life with the imperial system but I have been living in Europe for the last 18 and I love the metric system. Very easy, no errors, you can do it all in your head and the little marks on the ruller are the same length, great if I don't have my glasses on.
I would never switch back again. I convert everything in Metrics, even the boat building lofting numbers. So much easier and my brain is free for the creative stuff.
Cheers
Jim
Interesting discussion, which led from how to measure a stick, to the world economy, outsourcing in the Far East and personal squabbles about life in America.
Well, here is my two cents worth.........
In July 4th 1776 the declaration of independence, written by a Virginia Lawyer, Thomas Jefferson, was adopted, with the basic beliefs that all men are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So, if it makes you happy to use millimeters, or inches, or Bobs, who cares, as long as you are happy.
If you don't like a car, with metric technology, developing imperial horse power, with American gallons as a stated gas tank capacity, import one from across the pond, as long as you are happy.
Important to remember that if you consume a gallon of beer in England, you are a lot more intoxicated than in America. It's not the alcohol content, but there are 4, 5 liters in an English gallon compared to 3,8 in an American one. Never the less both will make you happy.
Finally, if you know how to look at a stick, identify the lumber species and cut it square, you will be able to read, inches, millimeters and Bobs.
Doesn't matter which to me:
1st to 10th grade - Imperial
11th and 12th grade - metric
college science - metric
engineering school - imperial
1st engineering job - Swedish company - metric
moved to New Zealand - imperial
moved to Austrailia - metric
home to Canada - Imperial
back to New Zealand - Imperial but 4 months later converted to metric
back to Canada - Imperial
Canada switches to metric
but Canada is a free country so we do what we want - sort of half and half
Just don't give me a rule or tape with both on it!
I never use both at once and it's a pain to keep having to turn the darn thing over!
See what you started 10 days ago. This is what happens when you wonder out loud. Some peoples children !!! Great thread, makes us think a little.
:0)
...bum
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
All this ranting (169 posts) and nobody mentioned the nautical component yet! Knots? Fathoms? Would Jules Verne's book have become a classic if the title was: 111191.04 Kilometers Under The Sea?;-)
Avast matey! I'm sure I saw knots in one message, and plainly posted at the top of each page in the discussion, so I refrained from mentioning the nautical terms of measurement.
Knots (nautical miles per hour) are extremely handy in navigation, as the nautical mile is based on one minute of latitude. But you knew that. Fathoms and leagues persist because of politics, as in: "I can't fathom how we came to be in league with them."
"Avast matey! I'm sure I saw knots in one message, and plainly posted at the top of each page in the discussion, so I refrained from mentioning the nautical terms of measurement."AARRRR!!! Bob. Your'e right. I had a Parrot feather in me good eye and missed that.Never pee to windward!!!
I've wondered why we don't have a metric time unit? It be so much easier ! And most people are paid to the nearest 1/10 of an hour anyway if they punch a time clock. How did they miss that one?
Edward
But we do have 12 hour clocks, 24 hour clocks, standard time, daylight saving (s?) time, GMT, and Zulu time. Within the US a couple of states that do not use the Daylight time routine (Indiana, Arizona, Hawaii?). How many bells at sea?
Then there is waiting for your wife/girlfriend to finish dressing: akin to suspended animation I believe.
Have I missed any?...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
oldbeachbum
whitworth!
Used by all of us anglophiles who want to be appointed to cabinet maker to the queeen..
Sir Frenchy Dampier, cabinet maker to the queen!
I bet with that name plate I could sell cabinets for more than $19.95 ;-)
QC see post #42 of this thread. ;O)The Professional Termite
I sit corrected.;-)
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