Replies

1. 
   SawdustSteve | Oct 18, 2004 06:29pm | #1

   Hi Dennis I did some metal spinning MANY years ago. Be sure you can apply enough pressure with your tailstock to keep the metal disc seated against the form. If you do not do this step, you will have one of two results. first, the metal will slip and come flying out at you. (Think of a sharp-edged frisbee). Second, as it slips off-center, it can set up some really mean vibrations. Make sure your metal is 'dead soft'. It will work harden as you form it. Use plenty of lubrication on the surface you are working. We used to use Ivory soap. It stuck to the metal quite well. You will need a lot of leverage. Make sure your tool post can take the strain of forcing the metal against the form. All your work tools should have LONG handles for leverage. Last but not least, SAFETY... Sturdy gloves, a face shield and leather apron are appropriate for this processs, especially as you learn the process. Oh yes, if you have done work on a wood lathe, PLEASE drop one bad habit I have seen too often... DO NOT touch the metal as it is spinning to check for smoothness. A 'power-driven' splinter is bad enough, but a sharp metal splinter is like sticking your hand into a spinning food processor.

   SawdustSteve Been there, done it, got the t-shirt.....

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 19, 2004 06:56am | #6

   Thanks for the reply, Steve ....

   I did a little experimenting today to test the waters, so to speak. Obviously I need to go further into the realm of proper tools and techniques if I intend to make this work.

   The only 'burnishing' tool I had was a long piece of (about) 3/8" stainless steel barstock I had on hand. I rounded and smoothed the end. The bar is about 3' long.

   The mandrel is kninduva bell shape. I heated the (copper) work piece with a propane torch (not ideally even I realize) to anneal it but, as I've read in what little research I've done thus far, copper work hardens in a heartbeat.

   I didn't have too much trouble keeping the metal disk centered on the lathe but did have trouble keeping it from 'freewheeling' between the tailstock center (a blunt live center) and the mandrel which resulted in a 'dimple' burned into the mandrel and a corresponding dimple in the copper disk. I'm reluctant to put a great deal of pressure against the disk to avoid putting too much stress on the headstock bearings. This is a Powermatic 2442 lathe. Plenty of oomph for the task but I kinda baby it none the less.

   Didn't get the form 'pushed' very far down the mandrel but just from this little experiment it looks like a fascinating process. Need to build a proper tool support system I think.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   RickL | Oct 18, 2004 06:45pm | #2

   I experimented a little when I worked at a metalsmithing company.  We actually had a lathe that was designed specifically for metal spinning. Obviously there are special tools and you have to turn a basic form to use. You also need to have a propane torch to anneal the metal as you work it. It gets what is called work hardened from the heat and stretching. You then take it off the form and heat the overall metal to resoften it. We used a 10 lb barbacue propane tank and a plumbers torch but a regular propane torch will work on smaller pieces. You also need to keep the tip of the tool lubricated. We used grease but there are less messy waxes and such available.

    

   You would do better to do a google search on the subject and there's probably a yahoo group out there that's dedicated to the subject. I find it interesting that just because it can be done on a wood lathe people go to a woodforum instead of a self directed search. It's really more metal oriented that wood related. Have you looked in your local library. My library has great old vocational and metal working books on the subject.

   http://www.jamesriser.com/MyLathesSm/ForSpinning.html

   http://prl.stanford.edu/documents/pdf/

   http://www.metalshapers.org might have some links

   Sorby made a line of metal spinning tools as well.

   See Highland hardware...

   http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=PR
   ODSEARCH&txtSearch=sorby&Page=5

   http://www.machineryvalues.com/xresults.cfm/MTID/LATHS

    

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 19, 2004 06:59am | #7

   Rick -

   I *have* done a 'Net search for information, downloaded more than a few pages of such information and do understand, at a very rudimentary level, certain aspects of metal working. I ask here since no matter what the topic, there are usually a few people who have some words of wisdom.

   I do, however, appreciate your comments and suggestions.

   Thanks....

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

3. 
   MichaelPB | Oct 18, 2004 09:31pm | #3

   Dennis,

   A couple of things, when you first start, I would start with metal that you have drilled a hole through the center and hold it with your live center pressed into the form.  That way you don't cut your arm off right away.  Another thing is someone mentioned the correct way to anneal steel but copper and brass are the opposite, one heats them and then quenches them to anneal them.

   Lastly, here is a great metal forum by the publishers of metal workings equivelent of Fine Woodworking.  Home Shop Machinist

   Don't worry about asking dumb questions or questions about woodworking, everyone there is very nice.

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 19, 2004 07:07am | #8

   Hi Michael ....

   Yeah, I see the point about making the hole to avoid a martial arts equivalent of an otherwise article of copper art! (grin).

   To explain the reason for wanting to do this ....

   I need to create, manufacture, devise or otherwise come up with a plausible design for a form to control the rain water out of my newly installed gutters. We opted for copper chains with little upsidedown bells thingies on them. They're rather attractive but ... they don't work all that well. They tend to splash out to about a 24"+ diameter which gets rain water on the side of the house. Not preferable.

   I've isolated the problem as being the form of these "bells". They have a too extreme return radius at the bottom such that the water loses its surface tension 'grip' and leaves the surface of the bell. I'm of the opinion that a smoother transition at the bottom will hold the water better and prevent, or at least curtail this splashing.

   More than you wanted to know and totally innapropriate for a woodworking forum but .... throw my in topic jail.

   Thanks for taking the time to reply. Since I'll end up needing a hole in the end of my form anyway I gues I'd better make one to start with!

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   RickL | Oct 19, 2004 03:38pm | #11

   I've annealed plenty of  copper and brass. We used the water quenching to reduce the oxidation on copper but letting it just cool is perfectly fine for annealing. The water is certainly not a required element for proper annealing

4. 
   JohnWW | Oct 18, 2004 11:18pm | #4

   Dennis,

   Half a century ago, Delta printed a series of small handbooks on using the various shop tools.  They were, and in many ways, still are, the best books ever published on power tool woodworking 

   Their lathe book contained a chapter on metal spinning.  If you send me your address, I'll photocopy the dozen or so pages in the chapter and send it to you.  The entire book may be available as a reprint from Lindsay Publications, it isn't in their partial on line catalog but their printed catalog may still have it.  The title was "Getting The Most Out Of Your Lathe".   

   John W.

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 19, 2004 07:09am | #9

   John -

   Thanks for the offer to send the copies from the book, but let me see if it's still in print and available before we violate any copyright laws! (grin).

   I'll check the source you provided .... thanks a mill.!

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   DennisS | Oct 19, 2004 07:23am | #10

   John -

   >> ....

   Dennis,

   Half a century ago, Delta printed a series of small handbooks on using the various shop tools.

   >>>

   Actually it was printed in 1935. Just found a copy at biblio.com. Used was $US8.50 plus shipping (ground) $8.75.

   ..............................................

   Brown, Sam: Getting the Most Out of Your Lathe

   Milwaukee: Delta, 1935. Wraps. Good/No DJ Issued. 10th edition. Unknown printing. 48 p. ; illus. ; diagrams; 23 cm. Wood turning, metal turning, metal spinning; a complete handbook describing all branches of lathe operation in the home workshop with over two hundred photographic illustrations and line drawings.. (Inventory #AIM_1700765122)

   # Publisher: Milwaukee: Delta, 1935

   ....................................................

   Looking forward to more good reading. Thanks a mill!

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

1. 
   JohnWW | Oct 19, 2004 04:22pm | #12

   As an author and a writer, I'm careful about reproducing copyrighted material.  It was legal to offer a copy of the Delta book because the copyright has expired.

   John W.  

   Edited 10/19/2004 9:30 am ET by JohnW

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 19, 2004 06:30pm | #13

   Thank you, John for the reply. As noted last night I found a copy of the book at Biblio.com and it's on the way.

   Thanks for the reference.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   Patto | Oct 20, 2004 01:14am | #14

   HI,

   Have you considered sending a copy to the Guttenberg project?

   This is a crowd of geeks that scan out of copyright material and, using a lot of volunteer proof readers, OCR the text so that it can be put on line. So many of our good books seem long out of print and practicaly unavailable now.

2. 
   Patto | Oct 20, 2004 09:42am | #15

   one of the said Geeks just pointed out that the address for the online books is http://www.guttenberg.org

1. 
   JohnWW | Oct 20, 2004 05:04pm | #16

   One "t" in gutenberg to get to their site.

   John W.

3. 
   DennisS | Oct 31, 2004 07:57am | #17

   John -

   I just had to ressurect this discussion to thank you for the pointer to the Delta book. More like a booklet than a book, none the less with the small print there's a wealth of information contained within its covers.

   I found a used copy at Biblioteque.com (I think) which was shipped within a few days of the order. Great info ....

   Thanks again.

   ps - interesting to see how far the safety police have come in monitoring illustrations in 'how-to' publications! (hehe)

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

1. 
   RickL | Oct 31, 2004 08:16am | #18

   http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/metalspinning/

   Try this group for metalspinning

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 31, 2004 07:07pm | #21

   Yeah, Rick - joined the group a few days ago. Get the messages in digest form via email to avoid all the advertizing.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   MichaelPB | Oct 31, 2004 08:33am | #19

   Those old Delta books are great!  Didn't know they had one on Metal Spinning, I will have to look for it.

1. 
   DennisS | Oct 31, 2004 08:40am | #20

   Michael -

   This one, at least is not specifically devoted to metal spinning. The title is "Getting the Most Out of Your Lathe". It actually has one chapter that covers metal machining on a wood lathe picturing a compound cross slide that, I guess, Delta used to make for their wood lathes.

   The publishing date for this particular work is 1935 from Delta/Millwaukee. Since I've gotten interested in this subject I've found a wealth of information on it. Contact me off list if you want to continue the conversation - I suspect we're somewhat out of order here in a woodworking venue.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

1. 
   Biscardi | Nov 01, 2004 02:30am | #22

   There is a chapter in Ernie Conover Book on this. It looks like fun. You probably aught to read about it before trying it as you have to make sometools before you start.

   Frank

5. 
   TomS | Oct 19, 2004 03:57am | #5

   I think that the Conover Workshops have a class on this subject.  You might want to contact them and see if there is some information available.

   TomS