Dear All,
I would to express the thanks of my family and myself to the families of those who have given their lives for our and other countries. We will be raising a flag and burning some burgers and dogs, after some story telling with our children (4-9 yrs), about how some folks are willing to lay down their lives so that the rest of us may live in Freedom.
Sincerely,
John Martinsky
Replies
Amen brother! At my company yesterday we all went out at 2:00 and the VFW & American Legion did a flag ceremony with the reading of what each fold of the flag means with Taps and a gun salute. It was very moving. My dad was 100% disabled in WWII, and he remained a patriot to the end. To all who have gone before, thanks for the freedoms we enjoy and some take for granted. God Bless
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 5/24/2008 10:29 am by bones
Dear Bones,
Now THAT is a good company! Outstanding!Best,John
2 am, September 67, 1 click west of Con Thien on the DMZ . 3rd Battalion, 26th Marines vs. 324 NVA Regiment. Bomb crater with one rifle squad (eight or nine of us) caught 50 yards front of India Co.'s forward line . Desperate fighting. 3 triangulated NVA .51 cals' pinning us down. NVA belly crawling in on us.
Grenade came in. PFC Mike Daniels, Kansas to my right rolled on to it. With the words," Oh, God, I don't want to die", in the clouded moonlight I saw his eyes pin-point and he died in my arms. I was a Navy Corpsman. He saved at least four or more of us in that crater. Sgt. Bill Buckley, Indiana broke from crater to find a way out. Came back three times and lead us back under withering fire to our own lines. Buckley died eight years ago.
Mike's mother, Anna Daniels died 5 years ago and was given a Military funeral flanked by a rifle squad of Marines.
I remember you all on this Memorial day.
Thank you Mike and Bill, and Anna and I thank all those who have fought and died for this country and also, I thank all the parents who have suffered so greatly.
Semper Fi
"Doc"
BB
Good to see others out there,that remember what the holiday is all about.If it wasn't for our troops fighting out there standing up for our freedoms, that we so easily take for granted, past and present. Well done MEN"n" WOMEN. GOD BLESS them and their families.
Thanks to all who served and have kept us free. Doc, I just read your story to my eleven year old boy, and then told him that is what Memorial Day is about.
Thanks for sharing, and thanks for serving.
Jerry
Thank you John, and all who have served and are serving in our armed forces. You are the front line of our freedom!
Paul
Thanks to Paul and everyone, but I didn't post this for me. It was for them and for them I would say thank you.
I won't reply after this.Bless our troops and their families.BB
Doc,
Although Memorial day is set aside for remembrance of those who gave their lives in service, my thanks go also to you and others who served and keep the memories alive.
Best wishes,
Ray
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.4th stanza, For the Fallen, 1914. Laurence Binyon (1869-1943)
Here dead lie we because we did not choose
To live, and shame the land from which we sprung;
Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose,
But young men think it is, and we were young.
A.E. HousemanOutside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx
I thank you also.. My Father and two of his brother did also.. One was giong back from war and fell off a tnnk and got run over by it.. My Father I cannot get any information what happened to him! Damn!
to forget the fallen equates to denying thier sacrifice usmc 107 into pi dec 66 97 graduated 37 alive birthday nov 10 07 once again once a decision is made let the uniforms run the war not the suits unless you can put polosi,ried, moore walkin point then they may have a change inoutlook toward our savages one of the milder terms they have used
Nothing you can say dishonors the service of the many Democrats, Liberals and Progressives who serve now or served in the past. You dishonor yourself though when you attempt to make service and sacrifice partisan. One of the great beliefs of my family is that Americans sacrifice when necessary, not only for ourselves (Americans), but for ideals that are greater than us all. Sometimes we fight because none of us is really free while others are oppressed. Tonight, my family toasted those who have been willing to serve all the world over and make the ultimate sacrifice that others can be free. We remember all of them with gratitude.
Scotty
A trip to the local cemetery with dew on the grass... Civil War through VN. No locals from Iraq, etc. No public comment necessary on why.. simply because I could and there-fore I did.
Sarge..
Never forget... it is the soldier who fights to gives us all our freedoms. Take a moment this Monday to pause and reflect on this simple sentence. Take another moment to thank all our military men and women who are fighting for our freedom right now and another moment for those who served our country in the past. There is a program on cable called 'Dirty Jobs.' Those jobs shown are nothing when compaired to the dirty job our military must do to protect us and our future generations. So.... although this Monday is the official 'Memorial Day', please remember their sacrifices for our country EVERY day that you are free.
In remembrance of all my classmates lost.
SawdustSteve
Is no one going to speak up for our children and grandchildren? Are we forever to fight illegal wars of agression and conquest on behalf of the moneyed elite and the religious berserkers? What freedom did we fight for in the country of our now friendly trading partner Viet Nam? What enemy was threatening our freedom in Iraq or Afganistan or the Phillipines? Who was threating our lives in Panama? Why was Saudi Arabia, home of most of the supposed 911 hijackers left untouched? Why is Osama Bin Laden not on the FBI's wanted list and why do they say say they have no evidence linking to him to 911? I grieve for your lost children and loved ones but as long as you keep glorifying dying for reasons that have nothing to do with defending our safety or freedoms you are dooming more generations to loss and suffering. The last person that died truly defending our freedoms died in the revolutionary war, the rest were wasted with the possible exception of those who volunteered for WWII. Wake up people or your children or grandchildren will be next.
Edited for spelling.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Edited 5/25/2008 4:09 am by dgreen
Dear D,
Well, I am not going to get into a lengthy discussion as to why you are wrong as that fact is self-evident. It is the soldiers and their willingness to die for this country that has given you the right to be wrong and express it. Next time you are on your soapbox, you might want to open with a "thank you" to our country for the right to be heard, and then launch into the retro-speak.Happy Memorial Day anyway!Best,John
Edited 5/25/2008 8:08 am ET by Jmartinsky
JM,
Amen, brother, amen. This is a great country, there's room and air for all to speak their piece.
Ray
Dear Ray,
This is the content of the letter that was used in "Saving Private Ryan". Executive Mansion,
Washington, Nov. 21, 1864.Dear Madam,--I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle.I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save.I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.Yours, very sincerely and respectfully,A. LincolnBest,John
My friend, you do not understand Freedom. You have freedom to post your views because of the shed blood of others. Although I oppose your view I vehemently defend your right to express it.As I started reading this thread, I wondered how long it would go before someone posted a view like this one. Just consider: It is not smart to wait until the enemy has captured everyone around you to attempt to defend yourself. As they conquer smaller and weaker nations than ourselves and work their way toward us they are amassing more strength. We and the other free nations can thwart the nations that oppose us. But let them gain the entire world and we do not stand a chance.I was taught to defend those who could not defend themselves — this is true for a school yard playground or a world where people are being oppressed and their freedoms are in jeopardy.There is something far worse than death. I do not want my kids or grandkids to die on battlefield. But I do not want them to cower waiting for another to defend them and die for them.I honor those men & women who have served our nation. They deserve our highest respect. Many of them served without agreeing on the cause they were fighting for. Yet they served and many died. Perhaps no one in your immediate family died. BUT DO THOSE FAMILIES A FAVOR: Do not desecrate their sacrifice on this day. THEY DESERVE MORE THAN 1 DAY OF HONOR PER YEAR! •••••••
Exo 35:30-35
Edited 5/25/2008 12:45 pm by Cincinnati
"Is no one going to speak up for our children and grandchildren?"
Well sir I would think that all the men & women buried in Arlington and on the battlefields around the globe down through our history have spoke with honor and dignity not only for our past children but the ones in the future. This day is for remembrance of those brave individuals. I will not sully their memory by even touching the political side of your remarks. God bless and enjoy every day of freedom they paid for.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 5/25/2008 9:52 am by bones
I wasn't going to back into this but you hit a nerve.What does your rant have to do with the soldiers themselves who are ordered to go, serve and in some cases don't come back.? Are you suggesting wholesale desertion on the part of the military so as not to go where ordered by those we have elected. People will always goes for "causes" that are lead by the drummer boys, pundits and the media. That is voluntary and perhaps political. Of the rest who are already in or in the case of many of our wars, drafted, are you suggesting they be lay down there guns and go home? Or be shot for desertion? Like so many, you jump on the other side of the political bandwagon, failing to distinguish the soldier from the reason he is in jeopardy. This holiday is about all those who served, not about why they served.
Rank and file in our Armies and Navies don't have a choice. Generals can always resign but the soldiers can't.
Why do you feel you have to demean their legacy?
Yes, I was against the Vietnam War and this current one and I decry the reason for the wars generated by so many but I will never not honor and support the troops who are doing what most won't.
In my post, the young man mentioned was the last of his line. His uncles (2), KIA WWII, his father KIA Korea. He watched the "John Wayne" films. All of these things and more, perhaps even growing up in heartland Kansas with small town Memorial Day parades and going to church, a girlfriend, his buddies joining up, apple pie and George Washington made him join the Marines and jump on that grenade, but the reasons he did doesn't belie the fact that he did it. And he saved lives and her deserves to be remembered for it.
As does his mother who was left with a guitar (he had a rock and roll band), his turquoise 56 chevy (true - I saw it), a folded flag on the wall. and a grief that never left.
As do the legions of others that never came home or did but in part. And it is not for you to disparage them.
War is many things, mostly wrong but it is not those that fight them that create them. There will always be harpies demeaning those that go into harms way, but usually for the wrong reasons.
Why was it acceptable for those that rushed to war on 12/ 8/ 41 but not for those on 9/12/01?
Your grief for lost children rings hollow.
Save the rendering of your hair and raising you hands to the sky for the appropriate soapbox. This one isn't it.BB
God bless them all: yesterday, today and tomorrow.I'll remember my father, who won a Silver Star at Chosin Reservoir as a 2nd Lt. in the US Marines.He survived and lived to raise a family and to keep the details of his ordeal to himself. (I learned about them in a history of the Korean War.)What a man.We can (and will) talk about politics another day.
[Avoid schadenfreude]
Frozen Chosin. From what I know of it, that was something to remember.
What a man is right.Semper FiBB
Did you happen to read Flags of Our Fathers? I just did. Quite a story.Denny
>>Did you happen to read Flags of Our Fathers?<<Haven't read that one. I'll take a look
Thanks
Tom
[Avoid schadenfreude]
It's the story of IwoJima, the myth and the reality, written by the son of the only survivor of the flag raising. It's quite amazing, as the truths never emerged until this man had died, and the facts were buried in his belongings. Get it.
Denny
He survived and lived to raise a family and to keep the details of his ordeal to himself. (I learned about them in a history of the Korean War.)
My step father.. Korean War.. A really good man! And then some! Shot trought the neck and lived..
He always said he hated orientals.. I could understand... I took my adopted grandababies from China over to visit him.. He was the first to greet them with open arms and then some.. He had more than a few year to calm down a bit!
Just a thought I experienced.. Like I said '' He was a good man! "
First off, let me say that I've spent the last 25 years of my life defending your right to speak freely what is on your mind. And I revel in your ability to do so.
Now, I guess I'll take a few minutes to "Speak for the children". Let's start with the children of 6 million odd jews and other enemies of the #### state. Not all, but many of them have children and grandchildren of thier own because of over a quarter of a million "Wasted lives". And that's without counting the children of the Korean, Chinese, Phillipino and other Asian nations libertated by those poor souls.
But I'll hold off talking about a war I did not experience myself. I'll speak for the children of my friend Tom. They have no father. He died in Nov 2007. A deep buried IED killed him and two comrades. Tom believed in what we are doing over there, He simply opposed evil, and felt the terrorists ravaging Iraq are evil to the core. And quite honestly I agree. It only takes seeing a few video taped beheadings, done the slow dull knife way, to see Toms side of it.
Maybe I'll talk about those children in Panama. You know that "illegal war" we waged down there, and how thier citizens came out on the streets under fire to point out PDF positions to our soldiers. Yeah, probably should have left that tin pot in power........
Or I'll repeat the words of the 60 something year old child I met at the MacArthur Memorial in Inchon Korea. Who thanked me and my friend for simply being Americans. He remembered his childhood being marked by a horrible war. And he remembered how it was better when the Americans, not the North Koreans, were around.
So I won't abandon glorifying and honoring those who have paid the highest price for freedom, freedom for untold millions they will never know, because war is horrible. War is horrible, it is the most horrible thing mankind can do to itself. But if we turn our backs on the fight for freedom, we turn our backs on the children and grandchildren of all generations. Generations who will live under tyranny and subjugation without the "wasted lives" of those we honor on Memorial Day.
Again, you have the right to speak your mind. So do I. Thank you for the impetus to get me to do so. To Tom and all the bravest of the brave, GodSpeed, Rest in Peace.
Happy Memorial Day.
Also, let us know (or not forget) there was huge opposition to the United States getting involved in both WWI and WWII in their times. In most of our wars, as I think is still largely the case, we got involved because we took issue with oppressive regimes who were harming other peoples.
Later.
Denny
And to think, there were people who actually wanted you back on this forum.You sir have no honor, none.
<!----><!----> <!---->"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill<!----><!---->
Edited 5/26/2008 2:18 am ET by Napie
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
Major General Smedley Butler, USMC------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Are you sure you are not really Pat Buchanan?
Your quote from Smedley Butler is somewhat specious.He was a good commander for the time and within his limits. He was no Chesty Puller. I say that with all due respect to the Corps.First and foremost, Butler was a political animal from his first 2nd lieutenant bars to the grave. He learned the lessons well from his father, a long time U.S. Congressman who headed the Naval Affairs Committee and directed privileged assignments. Perhaps you should research his booklet (the real one) rather than an excerpt he delivered at press conferences and communist rallies - circa 1930- 1933, when he was pushing his soon to be published booklet. 1st. ed.-1933, 3rd. ed. 1935.(Round Table Press).
The original, not the re-edited and padded reprint (into a full sized book) by Feral Press, 2003 done by Adam Parfrey, known as a writer and publisher of extreme position books.I do agree he was right about business in war. No intelligent person would argue about who profits in wars. The "business plot" was a real event, but without detailing every war we have been in, our wars have been enjoined first and foremost as the result of other human conditions, later the profiteers come as well.When it comes to "the defense of our homes", Butler was referencing to the entire country and any enemy that would attack it, not just it's shores - along with any actions that would infringe on the Bill of Rights. Including attack from the outside. Twin- towers.
There is huge difference between defending your country and isolationism. More so now then when Butter was espousing his philosophy, the world was not as global as it is now.
As to him not fighting again, ("I wouldn't go to war again"), it was easy for him to say. He was done for. His experience was from another time, and he was a embarrassment in the war department and he was encouraged to retire in 1931 as there would be "no more advancement", especially after his ties with Huey Long became known.
In addition, he was running for office (Senate) on the communist / socialist / fascist ticket - acceptable then.
Butler had a personal agenda in his proffered position.
It is true that he was against "militarism", but he would also be the first one to memorialize the soldiers.Memorial day isn't about reasons or whys of war or the distortions of it,only about those that serve.And Thanks to all the RosiesSemper FiBB
My Warrent Officer as I remember had NO bars.. (4 grade as I remember) I was trying to think what he had as in sort of bars ...... I do not remember. BUT when he showed up no bars needed... YOU knew HE was the boss! VERY nice guy! About the only so called Officer I really respected! And then some!
only about those that serve.
YES the grunt that never made it to the beach. Drowned trying to bring AMMO to the other guys and stepped off in really deep water.. My Step Father was one. But in Korea.. He talks funny but he had a bullet through the heck! Great guy...My Mom loves him and she still loves my father.. He does not care if we speak about my father ( died in WWII )
My step dad is about about as cool a guy you can have in the Family!
I said step dad.. He was a Father to me! Great guy and sure my father would approve!
Edited 5/26/2008 3:39 pm by WillGeorge
Thanks for sharing that. One of the biggest problems we have with wars is the failure to attach an actual face or name or personality to those that serve. I think there would greater memorial if people could visualize just one soldier to remember.Bless the memory of your Dad and say heh! for me to your Step Dad.BB
I think there would greater memorial if people could visualize just one..
I have one Picture of my father.. We look alike and women seem to like us for some reason.I would say a face is not needed.... Many children, men and women died in some war.. The BAD folks seem to be getting away with in,,, But I believes in a after life..
They will Pay!
War is good business: invest your son.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Dear D,
My, my................... we are bitter aren't we? Cheer up! Have a burger! Go fly a flag! Maybe one with Stars and Stripes on it! Perhaps Red, Yellow, or even White would suit you better? No matter, someone else paid for the privilege, so you might as well take advantage of it. You might even want to thank someone for that privilege, or show some type of appreciation for the country that will allow you to state your disagreements. You could even continue upon your .. oh so profound statements....... such deep observations........ Or not. Because we are Free.Happy Memorial Day!Best,John
Don,
Here is a small voice of agreement with at least the basic part of your stance (war is no good for those who have to be in it) but perhaps a qualification on the rather stark expression of your viewpoint.
Like many others here, I cannot help but admire the bravery and self-scarifice of those who do go to war and get killed, maimed or psychologically damaged. Despite being "a self-centred little skinbag" myself, I can appreciate self-sacrifice when it is made for what the sacrificer believes is a just and worthy purpose. I hope that I would have volunteered for WWII, for example, despite my inherent fears and desire to live.
But then I also agree with you that many who are encouraged to fight and die are often being cynically bamboozled by amoral politicians, with the aiding and abetting of self-centred business creatures who don't mind swapping other folks lives (friends' and foes') for cash and their own luxuries. At a stretch, you might justify some of the wars waged by the West post-1945 as a legitimate fight against dangerously waxing totalitarian regimes. But the vast majority of those wars were not in response to a clear and present danger but rather the pet-cause of some rabid politician and their even more rabid idealogical, business and religious backers.
Fear and aggression in the populace at large is a great powerbase. The power of the nightmare and the witch-doctors' proferred ju-jus.
How does an ordinary citizen differentiate between real threats from abroad and those that are manufactured by evil men using their power and their media-slaves? It seems no easy matter. But, as you point out, a wrong choice means that perhaps oneself or one's children will meet a horrible fate for no reason other than the passing powerplay of some meglomaniac. The meglomaniac will award glowing words and a medal - no substitute for the continuing presence of your son or daughter I feel, especially when the maniac then goes off to supp with the former enemy/new friend in the grand palace paid for by your taxes.
Personally I start with skepticism when considering any viewpoint offered by powerful people. It is rare to find such a person who is not entirely self-serving and bigotted-up to the eyeballs with some mad personal goal, idealogy or religion that is driving everything they say, do and recommend. Such people are very dangerous. When governing the rest of us, they are apt to think either "voter" or "cannon-fodder".
Nevertheless, sometimes the madmen are not just "here at home" but also "out there" and giving us a nasty glance. If and when the nasty glance becomes an unequivocal pressure on their trigger finger, perhaps we should then consider that basic question: fight (maybe die) and be free or live under some grinding heel.
Perhaps the real issue just now is that the potential grinding heel is not worn by an Iraqi or Afghan (they hardly have a slipper let alone a jackboot) but by our current "friends" in those other Large and Powerful Nations with plenty of ammo, lots of willing cannon-fodder and ideological intents very far from those espoused by the philosophers of freedom. I find myself much more "terrified" by those rulers and their doings than by some scrawny bloke with nobbut a small gun in a desert 2000 miles away.
Of course, the truly dangerous powerful nations are currently trading partners on a large scale so the politico-capitalist hegemony that now rules the West is not likely to spoil the lucrative arrangements.
And such continuing trade is perhaps our best chance of avoiding WWIII. That and the prospect of the Mutually Assured Destruction (no one left to award or look at medals) that preserved us from WWIII with that now semi-defunct gang of monsters who have themselves come to prefer trade to posturing on the Kremlin balcony as the missiles rolled past........
****
So, I remember those who died in wars with thanks but also with something of your own sadness at the sometimes unnecessary sacrifice. Moreover, no one who lost a child in war wants to think the loss unnecessary and I have every sympathy with that feeling. But in the end, such feelings would be a poor reason to lose another child, especially as the politicos and their media-dogs are all too ready to exploit such feelings in order to find willing victims for their next little adventure.
Do you really want your son or daughter to be sacrificed in some vain attempt to "democratise" (and economically exploit) the hundreds of beknighted countries around the globe? That will be a never-ending war and soon there would be only babes and very sad old folk left to wave the limp and tattered flag, as the Evil Horde of Newly Emergent World Dictator Ghenghis II wades ashore with a leer and a skull on a stick.
Lataxe, saluting the dead and their wounded comrades but with mostly fear & loathing for those who put them into the killing fields.
Lataxe,Did this thread have a name change from "Memorial Day Thanks" to "What causes war and why is it bad"? What is there about this thread that people insist on hijacking it for political position statements and leisurely wing chair observations? Or as a hang out for someone who appears, judging from his source quotes, to perhaps be our "agent provocateur permanent".
This thread was about thanking and thanking only - simple. Not an invitation for discourse on why lives are wasted or of future progeny. Of course anyone may write as they will, but they may also risk looking foolish, cavalier and self serving. Or merely of being an agitator to further discussion of the thread.
I also happen to believe in many of the positions you have outlined as to the whys and wheres and hows we have arrived at where we are in the world today, but again, but this thread was not the forum for it.
For that matter, this forum was not the forum for the original post. It may belong in cafe or on other boards, but it did show up here and most responded to it in the spirit it was given. Perhaps it is a uniquely American view and I'm not being jingoistic in saying this, but to most in this country, whether or not they burn burgers, lounge at a pool or salute the flag at parades and cemeteries, Memorial Day is a hallowed day of remembrance, and not for soapbox position statements of why those gone were wasted, are wasted or will be wasted. Q.E.D.There is a time and place for such. I don't believe this was or is the place.but what do I know sir, I being but a poor humble tinker with not but spit and mud to make my dam...it is surely in the hands of greater thinkers than I.....BB
Apologies BB, to you and anyone else that feels this discussion is taking away from the thanks expressed to those who have fallen. I mean no disrespect, quite the opposite.
However, I do feel that there are some who would use this giving of thanks for making statements of that very jingoistic type - a sort of "My country right or wrong" sentiment, which thern transmogrifies into "All our wars were just because those who fought in them were brave". Some of those wars were not just, despite the bravey and sacrifice of those fighting them But they were the ones who paid the price, not you or me "in our armchairs" and certainly not the ghouls who commissioned the wars for their unholy purposes.
Unalloyed thanks and certainly remembrance from me, then, to those who sacrificed. I do remember them often, not just on some special day. I also feel a certain guilt that I have been lucky enough to escape having to go to war when so many have not, including a number of childhood friends and a number of Americans with whom I was at university in the 60s. In some cases, I feel that their lives were thrown away by an uncaring and badly-governed National State of the time.
So, a wider "thanks" may be to ensure, as far as we can, that such sacrifices are not made again for no good reason. That means that the thanks and rememberance have to be about more than just the personal sacrifice and bravery. We need to remember that war is a very poor substitute for real politics, diplomacy, trade and all the other means of resolving international disagreements. Thanks are also due to folk who strive in those fields to prevent the killing in the first place, despite their villification by rabid warmongers and the scandalous "patriots" who will themselves never risk the battlefield.
But you're right - these matters are not appropriate here and perhaps the whole thread should have been written in a different kind of forum.
Lataxe
Lataxe,No apologies to me required. It's just a sensitive issue to many. As I said, we are of like - almost identical, minds on some of the other issues you touched on. Perhaps we are the end products of our times (university in the 60s). Perhaps another time and on some other forum...For now, I will continue to enjoy your thrusts and parries. You are always an enjoyable read. Unless of course, you are one of those Englishmen who wear a wool suit, vest, and four-in-hand tie with a tattersall shirt while fishing your beat for Salmon and Trout. One of yours (not Irish) bested me at Salmon on the River Nore off Inistioge, Kilkenny and I remain in umbrage. All bets are off then.RegardsJohn
My son and his unit (2 plt Charlie Co. 1st CEB) just returned from western Anbar.There's a distant cousin wandering around somewhere else, also in the Corps.My family's had people in just about every war we've had since this place was a collection of Crown Colonies in 1758, although some of us sat out the Revolution because of 1745.We've been carps, plumbers, shipfitters, teachers, medics, soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen.We build. We serve.Semper Fi.Leon
AND NEVER FORGET.. Rosie the Riveter .. I think some 6 Million or so VERY strong woman that worked ALL day.. and still had to keep the kids happy and help them with our Homework!! My Mother was one.. I think she etched glass for something on a 'B' something Aeroplane.. To this day.. (She a bit more that 90) she will not tell me exactly what! She said I was told NEVER to speak about it! Geeeeeeee
And then I told her SHE spoke about edching the Glass for something.. She never got over it!
Edit: I forgot that She was ALSO going to School to be A Nurse! War over by then BUT she did a few or more stitches on me as a child! With a needle and dental floss as I recall! I think she JABBED a few times for botherin' her while knitting!
If I WAS REALLY BAD! I HAD to sit on the floor while she lectured me as I held this big BALL of Wool and .. She TOOK HER Time winding it up! OK so I got a smile if I was holding the ball as she wanted it! I loved her anyway!
My MOM... Rosie the riviter.. YOU never MESSED with her~ But she had a soft heart!
Edited 5/26/2008 8:46 am by WillGeorge
Edited 5/26/2008 9:02 am by WillGeorge
Dear Will,
Your Mom is quite a woman...... and quite the Patriot. For me it was my Grandmother who was "Rosie". She working in ammunition production during the War. Long shifts, thousands, maybe millions of cartridges she helped produce, raising two kids, Blackouts, rationing, no phone, but she she still had time to make some meals for a neighbor when a Blue Star turned Gold. Remarkable people.Best,John
working in ammunition production during the War... LOL My Mother smoked as I do! She would never fit in! As in me...
I never saw or knew my Farther.. My Mom still loves him and speaks of him often...my Step dad is a Korea War Vet! As far as I can tell he has no bad thought if she remembers him sometimes! My so called step Father IS the best.. And then some... HE never bothered me with complicated covveration.. He just Loved My Mother! We just sat and had a drink or two o two.. He was a good A MAN an then some!!!..
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