Anyone know what happen to the WK Tools web site..sometimes I like to log on and admire Phillip’s planes and dream…can’t log on anymore..
Neil
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Replies
Neil,
http://www.wkfinetools.com/ just worked for me.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
WKFine Tools works well. but WKtools is somehow connected and this is the site where one can view and purchase his planes...there's also a link, marcousplanes, that is no longer functioning or at least when you go there, comes up as faulty address...worries me a bit because I actually did purchase a plane there but haven't received it...
Neil
I don't believe you have anything to worry about with Philip. He's been a frequent flyer around these parts for quite a while, and I don't think he's going anywhere with your money.
My strong feeling is that you'll get your plane.
Jeff
Jeff,
I wasn't concerned about Phillip. However, his planes are sold through WKtools in the US and I just learned that they are no longer associated with Philip...you're probably right and I don't have anything to worry about, coincidence is sometimes anxiety provoking...
Thanks, Neil
Neil, I have terminated my association with W.Kuc. He should have removed all links etc to do with my planes . He removed the marcouplanes web site but left links.....to nowhere....
You say you purchased a plane from wktools and have not received it- I received no evidence of this purchase: otherwise I would have acknowledged it to you in the usual way(via email, as others will confirm). Please urgently provide me with the invoice details, the amount you paid, the plane type-here or by e mail or both. I have nothing to hide and wish to resolve any problem you may have .
I am still making planes and customers can now deal direct with me: that is how I have worked for 30+ years and I am glad to return to that modus operandi.Philip Marcou
Philip
I'm glad you are dealing direct, and I'm also glad you cleared this matter up.
Jeff
Given the circumstances and having talked with Philip, I cancelled my order and decided to deal directly. It appears that any other way of acquiring a Marcou plane at this juncture would likely have a less than satifactory outcome
Drat! I was so looking forward to my first shavings next week.
Patience is a virtue, I guess.
Neil
Neil,
Glad to hear things have worked out. Dealing directly with Philip is the best way - he is quite knowledgeable and will help you select what is just right for your needs.
And, don't forget, there are some custom features available that you would not have the choices of when buying "off the shelf" from a vendor. (ie - handle and knob wood species, etc...)
All in all, you will be quite pleased with your purchase - I know I have been. And as for service after the sale, there is none better. I have had more than my share of questions and Philip always responds promptly.
And the plane - well, it's phenomenal!
Lee
Neil
As Lee stated, dealing directly with Philip from this point forward will ultimately leave you with a fantastic plane, as well as a reassured comfortable feeling regarding your transaction.
Many, many Knotheads will only have positive things to say about Mr. Marcou. Eliminating the rusty parts in the middle just eleviates the "squeek".
Good luck, and enjoy your new Marcou plane.
Jeff
I am grateful for the re-assurances from friends here, and relieved that another potentially nasty situation was narrowly averted thanks to the vigilance of Lee Hingle (Mapleman), who alerted me in the nick of time.
Certainly now Neil will get the right plane, which is right here complete and ready to fly direct to his doorstep, and definitely the only way for folk to get a new Marcou plane is to deal direct with me-with the benefit of hind sight I can say that this is the most appropriate way to sell a bespoke product.....
Now , there is some damage control to be done: there are still two planes out there which are, to put it politely, in unauthorised possession. I would be grateful if I could be informed should anybody be "offered" one or both of these for sale, or if they appear on Ebay ....Even better, should some intrepid soul be in the Albuquerque area, he could earn a reward by dropping in at an address which can be supplied....
The two planes are pictured. The one is the very first mitre made by me, number 013/2006, with Rhodesian Teak wood. The other is an S50P, withe name plate number 017 set into the cap screw (after that pic was take)which is a bevel down smoother with 50 degree bed and Afzelia wood, the one previously referred to above -this one required a full explanation from me about why it is called a proto type, and should not have been offered to Neil for sale....
Philip MarcouEdited 7/31/2007 4:43 am by philip
Edited 7/31/2007 4:44 am by philip
philip,
Glad to hear things are working out well for you. I'm sure the last two hiccups will turn out fine too.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Simply lovely planes, Philip!
Sorry to hear about the trials and tribulations and wish you the very best.
Take care, Mike
Philip,
No worry , you are surely amongst friends here and I really think most of us will keep on the lookout for your benefit .
BTW , would you be interested in buying these 2 back at a reasonable price ? just fooling , but honestly if you had taken my suggestion to picture your planes with some silky smooth shavings on board , perhaps this could have been avoided .
hang in there now that we have been alerted we know the score
regards dusty
SOrry for posting to one person, this should have been to ALL:Is Sawmill Creek Wiktor's forum? If not, should someone post a thread about these missing planes over there?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 7/31/2007 11:32 pm by highfigh
I'm fairly certain Sawmill Creek is not "Wiktor's" forum.
I agree it would be adviseable to post at sawmill creek and any other forums about the planes, but it would probably be best for Philip to post himself - that way, people could reply to him directly.
Lee
I will refrain from doing dirty laundry in public. However, a short comment for accusations and opinions based on assumptions is in order.<!----><!----><!---->
The plains in my possession will be here and will be held until Philip resolves all outstanding matters. These planes will be sold if resolution is not obtainable within 60 days from 07/30/2007. <!----><!---->
Details of the problems and outstanding issues are not for public trashing in my opinion. However, if Philip continues his public falls statement, I will be forced to expose issues that will no be pleasant either to him or his future potential customers. Professional behavior is called for in all situations.<!----><!---->
On some comments in this post I only have one point – before anyone wants to state opinion, it is good to know the facts. The facts at this time are limited to exposure by me until matters are resolved in professional manner.<!----><!---->
To Neil – noviceneil – yes, you ordered the plane and sent the check. Your check didn’t arrive before you posted your message here. Suggestion that you send a check and never received the plane is suggesting malpractice on my part. You know that this is not true! Please correct your statement publicly.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
To JeffHeath – you putting cart before the horse. You don’t even have any of the planes made by Philip. I suggest to you to watch you own rust and make some money to buy some real planes.<!----><!---->
To Philip – good luck in your venture.<!----><!---->Wiktor
To Wiktor and Philip,Three different nieces and nephews of mine have recently gone through difficult divorces. All three were VERY nasty situations. I watched these divorces, and I tried to help, but to no avail. I guess sometimes when anger is already in place, the human psyche just is not willing to attempt to work out something which does the least harm to both. Instead, the human psyche sometimes wants to focus more on who said what, and who is to blame, and who struck the first blow, whether it was real or perceived. Once the escalation starts, it is nearly impossible to stop. I hope that the two of you, Wiktor and Philip, can take a lesson from these three divorces. It seems that the two of you will no longer do business together. It is best now to settle things with the least possible harm to both parties.Wiktor, it was good of you to post a message and let Philip know that the planes are still in your possession. Your message indicates that you are concerned about people who posted messages which may have maligned you. I would suggest that you do not worry about that. The past is past. No one will think less of you because someone posted such a message. People will think well of you if you put those things aside and only focus on doing what it takes to minimize the problems of:
- the maker of the planes (Philip)
- the buyer of the planes (?)
- the seller (Wicktor)
Since you hold the planes, you seem to be in the best position of anyone to help this come to a conclusion that the three parties can live with.
You said that no one should make a judgment until they have all of the facts. No one will have all of the facts. I don't think that any of us want to know all of the facts. We would like the three parties to settle things as amicably as possible.Philip,
As I read these messages, I felt like it was the Beatles breaking up. It may have been inevitable, but it is still too bad. So we all move on. Now you know that Wiktor has the planes, maybe it would be good to look at the situation through the eyes of the buyers, and of Wictor, and yourself, and try to come up with something that all three might see as acceptable, and then propose that to Wiktor, privately. Wiktor and Philip:
I hope that the two of you can make two things happen:1) solve the problem of getting the planes and the money to the "right" people. 2) Then, both of you should write messages to Knots saying that the two of you worked out a mutually acceptable solution. Without letting us know the details, let us know that the immediate problem was solved. We all wish both of you the best of luck with your futures, even if they are separate. Buona fortuna a voi due! (Good luck to the two of you).
Mel
PS I hope my message does no harm. Life is just too short to have problems continue.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, thanks for the comment.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The issue of the buyer (noviceneil) is off the table, since transaction was canceled several days ago and will never take place.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It was and still is my goal to keep business issues and problems from public trashing. You are correct, the facts are only known to two people, me and Philip. The resolution stays with us and nobody else.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Posts to the public forums intended to gain leverage, slander, accuse, and suggest faults are unacceptable. I stayed away from this kind of behavior. It is up to Philip to stop this. It is and will be a testimony to his maturity.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
I will however not hesitate to bring to the public facts that will not be pleasant and consequential, if this continues.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I have been and still am involved in many business ventures. There are always problems and issues to work out and I always keep the problems to the people directly involved. I expect the same from people who are involved with me.<!----><!---->Wiktor
"I will however not hesitate to bring to the public facts that will not be pleasant and consequential, if this continues."
I have absolutely nothing to hide.What "facts"?Philip Marcou
Gosh, I feel like the guy who reached for a peach and encountered a hornet's nest.
Wiktor is correct in that he had not received my check when I had posted my initial concern. My concern however, was prompted with the question as to why the web site, WKtools, was no longer operating. The answer I received was "I have no idea"..upon learning of the disputes I felt that cancelling the order was the wisest move.
I too hope that these issues can be resolved in a peaceful and satisfactory manner for both parties. Going to court rarely results in anyone being happy with the outcomeand the resultant animosity takes years (if ever) to go away.
Neil
Philip:It seems to me that this is none of anyone's business and that no benefit can accrue to anyone by further public airing of this fracas.Could not a resolution of this be achieved by a phone call between the parties?"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874–1965)Regards,HastingsWho hopes one day to own one of your beautiful planes
Why take sides in this? Phillip seems like a nice guy. I don't know Wiktor, but he may be a nice guy also. We don't need to get in the middle of a p***ing contest. Let them sort it out privately and then go on with their businesses.
philip,
Absolutely beautiful planes. Keep making them no matter what.
Paul
Wiktor,What do you plan to do with the two Marcou planes that you have in your possession? (the ones that are at the center of this controversy).Since you have possession of the planes, you are in the prime position to resolve the controversy. So what do you plan to do?I have the feeling that your answer will increase or decrease the confidence that the woodworking community has in you, and their willingness to do business with you in the future. So as a practical matter, it would seem to be in your best interest to do something which increases their confidence in you. Please note that I am not "taking sides", and I have not criticized either Philip or you. Please note that I have not mentioned "morality". My comments are from a business and a practical point of view. Sometimes morality or arguement concerning who cast the first stone get in the way of pragmatic solutions. Think about the "Catholics versus the Protestants" in northern Ireland. For decades there was violence, and name calling, and arguments about who started it and who was right and wrong. Somehow that has stopped, and business, trade and tourism is WAY UP in that part of the world. Three cheers for both sides! Lebanon used to be a tourism giant. Now business is not so good for any of the sides there. The Israelis and the Palestinians would have a lot more business and tourism if only the fighting would stop. My push here is merely for a practical solution in which both you and Philip can get back to business and not have this distraction, which as Charles Stanford said, is bad for business. I urge you to do what is in the best interest of your future business prospects. You have it in your power to be seen as a fair, kind and even generous person , and thus a good person to do business with. I urge you to take advantage of your opportunity to achieve that goal. Make people want to do business with you. Mom always said, "It is easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar." Whenever I would tell Mom that I was having a dispute with a stupid schoolmate who did something wrong, she would say "If you wrestle with a pig, both of you will get dirty." Note that I am not calling anyone a pig here. I would respond to Mom by saying ,"Yea but the other guy is a fool." and Mom would answer "Never argue with a fool, bystanders can't tell which is which." I miss my Mom. She had a lot of wisdom (and a lot of sayings). When my Italian temper had a tendency to flare, she would tell me that calming down and settling things is more important that fighting. I'd urge you and Philip to take a lesson from my Mom. When this dispute is resolved, let's have a thread on Knots about "Advice that Mom gave me". If Mom were here now, I have a good idea of what she would say to both of you. She'd say, "I like that Mr. Charles Stanford. You take his advice. Do you hear me?" Of course, it was hard not to hear Mom. She shouted sometimes. I wish both of you the best future possible.
PLease tell us what you plan to do with the planes.
Thank you very much.
Peace, Shalom. (I think that "Shalom" is an old Italian term.) :-)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Fellow Knotheads, friends ...
I strongly urge that this thread end here. This is not the place to deal with a disagreement between two people when the details are only known to themselves. To air their dirty linen in public will be a disservice to both, each of whom has done considerable good for woodworking on the web. Considerable good. Both!
We all know Philip, not for just his wonderful, exquisite handplanes, but also for his frequent sage advice freely given here.
Wiktor does not post to Knots but he has provided a free service to many, many, many woodworkers (myself included) on his website. It is now a major resource for hand toolers.
If you are curious and want to know what is going on, then contact each and discuss the matter with them offline. Not here.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 8/4/2007 9:08 am ET by derekcohen
Derek, just a quick comment: I have no dirty linen. That is the quandary, and in order to prove it, (I certainly have all the documentary and physical evidence to support), I am seen by some as showing someone else's dirty linen. Geographical location works against me.
If I lived in the States , a quick session with a first year lawyer would resolve the issue (of which what has been seen in this thread is a very minor part, I must emphasise)in an instant.
I repeat- I have nothing to hide, and neither do I wish to offend the forum moderators.
Remember that I did not start the thread. Neil is my customer and I apologise sincerely to him for the discomfort that he certainly feels.
Philip Marcou
""If you wrestle with a pig, both of you will get dirty.""
You got it slightly wrong Mel. It should read, 'If you wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in s**t, and you'll find out too late that the pig loves it.' Slainte.
Edited to say that I am not making any comment on the business dispute aired in this thread. It's merely an alternative version of the pig wrestling aphorism Mel included in his post.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 8/5/2007 8:35 am by SgianDubh
Wiktor48, I submited a post in the hope that the problem betwixt you and Philip could be sorted without the Knots members having to take sides.However in a post from your good self you are making this very diffcult to achieve.In a post to All,you stated "I will not hesitate to bring facts that will not be pleasent and consequential if this continues"
I've read over thirty posts and I havent found anything from Philip that carried anything that would induce me to harbour a wrong impression of you.I have never had dealings with either of you,I've read some posts from Philip very helpful none from your good self, but then I'm not that long a member,so I have nothing to assess your demeanour,. Personnally speaking I would find your statement both threatning and smacking of blackmail;;If what I say in your opinon is not a true reflection of what you mean,thenI will not hesitate to offer you a profound apolagy . Regds. Boysie Slan Leat.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Edited 8/4/2007 8:30 pm ET by boysie39
I agree, I read nothing in Philips posts that was threatning or demeaning. I share your feeling that Philip is a valuable asset to this community and it is very apparent that he gives way more than he receives. My ill feeling for Wiktor is somewhat moderated by Derek Cohen's defense of him, but I would say I would be extremely cautious in any monetary dealings with him in light of his postings here.
Based on what I have read on this site and others I would not hesitate to make a purchase from Philip.
I would have written the whole affair off as a business arrangement that did not work out had it not been for Wiktors distasteful threats and so far total lack of proof or documentation even with Philips invitation to lay the cards on the table.
Ideally this would have been dealt with out of the public eye, however a worried customer thrust it into view and not without reason in my opinion. One partys response was to make sure the customer was taken care of first and foremost, the other party made unsubstantiated innuendo,excuses and threats.
My only interest in hearing more of this story would be to see if Wiktor has a legitimate leg to stand on as far as his stated dealings with Philip and whether it was an understandable dispute.
Mr. Marcou has raised the bar, I would be interested to see if Wiktor rises to meet it.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
My only interest in hearing more of this story would be to see if Wiktor has a legitimate leg to stand on as far as his stated dealings with Philip and whether it was an understandable dispute.
This statement is the problem. We cannot stand as judge or jury. No matter what our curiosity or personal beliefs and experiences, we have to let Philip and Wiktor sort it out together. Their way. Even if we think we can help, it is not our place to do so. This will make matters worse.
And any taking sides here will make the situation worse as well.
The problem is also that we do not want a friend to be harmed by the action, that is, for a good name to be besmirched. This situation is, I believe, different from personal attacks on a forum in which every one is already privvy to the relevant information. In such situations I would expect debate and expressions of support or criticism. Certainly, we can have a grand debate here by the two parties - but this is going to lead to two losers. Or we allow them to deal with it privately - and we trust that these two mature people can do so.
I do suggest that you email personal messages of support, because that is what friendship is all about.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
With all due respect and I do have a lot of respect for your opinion, I must disagree with you on this matter.
We must be judge and jury as far as our purchase's from these two individuals are concerned. It would behoove us to make a carefully considered decision and the more information we have the better decision we can make.
I do not think it is our place to "help" with their situation but it is up to us as customers to decide which is the more beleivable party.One party has already escalated the situation by making threats, I can not see how it would harm us as consumers to have a full airing of the differences.
I disagree that an airing of the facts will lead to two losers.
I also disagree that a private token of support is more valuable than a public one. I do not know either of these individuals personally, I have nothing to go on other than what I have read. However I am a big believer in the truth and one must decide who is truthful in this case by what has been written by those who in our experience have been truthful.
Philip made big points in my book by not making accusations nor slinging innuendo but by asking for a full airing of facts.
Sunshine is a great disinfectant.
With much respect for your knowledge and skills but reserving my right to disagree.
Regards from WA.
Don
edited for spelling.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Edited 8/5/2007 12:09 am by dgreen
This is a situation that needs sorted out on a venue other than on a public forum. Many of us know of both gentlemen and many of us have had equal respect for both. Both have contributed greatly to our pursuit of our hobby, career and or passion.
I would like to see Phillip and Wiktor jointly compose a post that they agree to disagree and that they wish to keep their disagreement private. Whether a resolution is at hand is again their decision and not ours. Remember neither Phillip or Wiktor started this thread!
Go back and read the original poster's several posts and his later response. Had it not been for the misleading writing, this thread would have gone no where. Wiktor stated the situation of the OP and the OP did agree that to be the truth. This would not started except for that misleading post! As it stands many are taking stands in defense of one or the other. More of us are like when we drive past a car wreck--we just have to take a peek.
The moderators should end this now because this is the kind of thing that can fester and infect relationships between unrelated others.
Edited 8/5/2007 7:12 am ET by Tony Z
What was misleading in the original post in your opinion?
I stand by what I have written.
You are in my opinion, oversimplifying what transpired on this thread.
I disagree that the moderators should intervene. I think the two parties are more than capable of presenting the facts should they choose to do so.
You are free to close your eyes and ears.
The bell has been rung, it is a little too late to unring it.
You may wish to bury your head in the sand, that is your priviledge. I do not wish to. Let the chips fall where they may.
I am very interested in what you perceive to be a misleading post, it seemed very straightforward to me.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
I have edited my original post to clarify what my interpretation of the early part of this thread. Remember neither Phillip nor Wiktor started the thread.
Tony
With all due respect, I agree with Mapleman and dgreen. I have been interested in this thread from the beginning, as I have had my eye on a Marcou plane for sometime. Mr. Marcou has helped me with questions I've had in the past, and I have watched the evolution of his planes with great interest.
I haven't seen where Mr. Marcou has aired his dirty laundry at all here. He has simply stated some facts, and Mr. Wiktor (I don't know his name completely) has promised us all more information, but has yet to deliver.
Since both gentlemen are players in the hand plane market, I think that knowing the facts here can greatly influence a purchasing decision. It is extremely unfortunate that this business disagreement has occurred, but we as woodworkers and hand plane oficianado's have an extreme interest in knowing the truth.
I cannot even guess as to why Mr. Wiktor is denying the return of Mr. Marcou's planes, and can only feel relief for Noviceneil that his money wasn't lost. I would encourage Mr. Wiktor to explain why he is doing so, as it should be considered vital information for the entire woodworking community who could perhaps be doing business with him via his own website. If it were my business, I would want my potential customers not have an air of doubt that any transaction may carry a certain level of uneasiness and uncertainty. I would want to feel comfortable sending him money.
Keep in mind that not long ago, Shepherd Tools was selling planes and kits to reproduce Norris and Spiers style planes. Many woodworkers lost deposits when Shepherd Tools went under. Mr. Wiktor should view this as his opportunity to make us all feel comfortable about doing business with him in the future.
Due to my past dealings here at the Knots with Mr. Marcou, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one of his planes. They have received high reviews from every publication which has completed a review in print, and several of the Knots community members have purchased his planes, and have posted their terrific reviews here.
This should be seen as an opportunity for Mr. Wiktor to clear the air for all of us regarding the future of HIS business.
Regards,
Walnutz
Per recommendation, we’re closing this discussion to further posts.
Gina
FineWoodworking.com
The moderators should end this now because this is the kind of thing that can fester and infect relationships between unrelated others.
Tony,
This is the only part of your post I feel needs editing. If no one was interested the thread would have died a quiet death long ago. Whether you agree or disagree with any of the statements in any of the threads, begging the moderators to pull the plug is not your call. "If you don't like the movie, change the channel"
And as for infecting relationships, I politely disagree. I feel that knowing all of the facts would help others base their business decisions with one or both of the parties.
Respectfully,
Lee
To JeffHeath – you putting cart before the horse. You don’t even have any of the planes made by Philip. I suggest to you to watch you own rust and make some money to buy some real planes.
Wiktor,
The only reason why I don't own one of Philip's planes is because he began only offering them in the US through you. I don't know you, and I didn't care for the way you contacted me initially regarding purchasing one. I really didn't think that the "Used Car Salesman" tactics were appropriate, and let you know in a return email. Your many strange replies made it clear to me that I would be waiting.
With regards to Philip, he is a well liked and respected member of this "Knots" community, and has been for a very long time. Many of us who have gotten to know him via this site have learned to trust him, and treat him as a friend, even though he is thousands of miles away. We'd all like to see this situation between you and him end amicably. Why are you holding his planes hostage? Perhaps you can explain it.
More than likely, you'd prefer to make attacks on me, something about rust and making enough money to be able to afford your commission, or something of the sort. If you communicated better, and had a full grasp of the english language, perhaps these issues never would have occurred. Please explain if you're saying that Philips planes are rusty, or that the current ones that I use are. I'm confused, but I'm sure you can enlighten me.
I await your response.
Jeff<!----><!---->
Jeff,
I don't own any Marcou planes because I can't afford them! There I said it. It doesn't make me any less of a person. : ) Does that mean my Lie-Nielsen's are rusty junk?
Jeff
neil,
try this link:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMakers/portrets/pMarcou/pMarcou.asp
Lee
Seems like a long time ago dear old mom had a saying: Mind your own business.
There is no benefit to be gained from us choosing sides and rooting for one side or the other. These 2 gentlemen are entitled to resolve their disagreement between themselves, without any of us putting our 2 cents and/or personal value judgements into the discussion. Sure, we all love to witness a good fray, but it doesn't mean it is either appropriate or beneficial.
Sorry to be the party pooper. On the other hand, the next time your wife points out one of your faults or chews you out, do you really want all of us chiming in about she is right and you are wrong? As some articulate bloke said:'' ain't no nevermind to me"
Let just trust these 2 guys to figure it out on their own and by themselves. Whatever they agree upon, or not, does not impact us. Let's just wish them both well.
Edited 8/3/2007 12:18 pm by stpatrick
DONT WASH YOUR DIRTY LINEN IN PUBLIC,a lot of you posters might think what would an old fart who is only a member at Knots a short time have to offer this discussion.Probley not a lot I've had no dealings with either Phillip or Mr Wiktar,but Jeff seems to right in the middle of it now. Before long other people begin to take sides and opinons get heated and it gets very messy.
While its not on the same scale, experience in issues that start with a conflict of intrest and escalate out of all properations,and because nobody wants to say sorry end up very bitter.
After a complete lifetime 68yrs in my time this year 3 people got to geather and said sorry and we have peace in our little island,after 10s of thousands of deaths and injurys to mostly ionnecents, swallow pride and dont envolve any more .Make contact ,work out your differences and let all your friends at Knots know its over.
regds. Boysie Slan Leat
I don't know, Metod, I guess I'd have to hear the judge's point of view as well. Could you ask him or her to post it here so that we can get to the truth?
-Andy
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