Hi all,
I’m at a point in my life where I’m trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. I’m working on a master’s degree but not sure that it’s what I want to do. My question is this. Is it possible to make a decent living as a woodworker? And if so, what kind of work would it be, and how would I get started? I realize that the scope of those questions is pretty large, but I’d appreciate any advice you have to offer.
Kyle
Replies
Kyle,
Finish masters first. You can always fall back on it. Do ww on side while building skills. Understand all small business needs and accounting. It's a business first and foremost and there is no place for a hobby outlook IF your going to make a living at it. If you want a hobby that's different. You will have to have good to excellent product, be better than average go gettter, a self starter and good to great marketing skills with the ability not to quit if it gets a little rough. It will be. Develop contacts - social and business. During that time, reassess and think hard if that's what you want to do. Time in grade will answer many of your questions. If you can be more specific, ask the individual questions here because what you ask is a biggy.
Most here will help you if you ask.
Bon Chance
BB
Kyle,
You asked: "Is it possible to make a decent living as a woodworker? "
The only possible answer is "OBVIOUSLY, since many people do it, and have for centuries.
YOu asked: "what kind of work would it be?"
Answer: If you have to ask, then the answer would be "Whatever your boss tells you to do? The reason is that one who is in charge would do whatever he wants to do (that will result in making money.)
You asked: "how would I get started?"
Answer: First learn how to do woodworking and how to run a successful business. Put the two together, and the rest will be history.
You didn't say much about yourself. You are working on your second degree? Are these degrees relevant to woodwork? Art would be relevant. Business would be relevant. ????? What can you tell us about your degrees?
What can you tell us about your degree of skill in woodworking? Are you quite knowledgeable, or just getting interested in what woodworking really is?
What is your monetary status? Are you independently wealthy? If so, woodworking would be a fine thing to get started in. It would be as good as anything else. Are you married to a woman who can bring in enough money for you to have negative cash flow for a number of years?
Why are you interested in woodwork?
There is a wealth of information about woodworking as a business in the archives of Knots. A wonderful thread on how to make money in woodworking just petered out a few weeks ago. There have been lots of previous threads on this. I can't imagine that anyone would have anything new to say. I recommend you spend a few evenings looking up what has already been hashed over.
Do you know many of the players on Knots. There are a lot of successful professional woodworkers here, although the hobbyists outnumber them greatly. I am of the latter ilk.
There is some old wisdom about learning about a company before you interview with them for a job. My personal opinion is that is ALWAYS a good idea. For example, before I would recommend that a person ask the questions you asked, the person do a large amount of research, and then ask more specific questions on Knots. It shows more seriousness. I have to wonder why anyone would get two college degrees and then think about getting into woodwork. To be successful in woodwork, one must be focussed and have sticktoitivity.
I wish you a great deal of good fortune, whatever you do. Whatever you do, homework is important. Have fun. I hope I was able to help.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks for the quick responses. Allow me to elaborate on my situation a bit. You asked about my degrees and their relevance to woodworking. I have a bachelor's in Biblical Studies and am working on my Master's in Divinity. These two degrees pretty much allow me to do one thing, and that is be a minister in a church. While faith, and religion remain a staple in my life... circumstances have changed in such a way that I do not think I will ever be employed by a church. If you have more question about this, I'd be more than happy to talk in greater detail about it, but that's the short story.
I am not independently wealthy. My wife is a school teacher, so the money isn't exactly pouring in.
As far as my woodworking experience...I am a beginner. I'm interested in it because the experience I have had with it, I have enjoyed. I realize that there are lots of things I need to do before it would be possible for me to make a living at this, and I know I have much to learn. I appreciate everyone's willingness to answer my questions. I'll try to become more specific as I learn more. Kyle
My experience in woodworking started by a friend asking me if I could make her a "kneeler" so she could say prayers at home. I make it from oak and padded the kneeling platform before covering it with leather. Since then I have made 3 more for her friends (including a pastor)and sold them for slight profit. I guess for what it's worth, the church is a good place to develop your woodworking interests. Start with something small such as a Bible box and present it as a gift, and see where it leads. Good luck!
newbie303,Recently, someone made a couple of rolling carts for our church that sit in the vestibule supporting church fliers and other stuff like that. They are awful. My guess is they were built as a first project by someone who is enthusiastic but hasn't learned some of the finer points like square joinery or what a plane is for. Of course, I've learned these things...along with the fact that there are numerous people in our community that are graduates of the North Bennett Street School...so I wouldn't touch a project like that, devout coward.
K:Haven't you asked and answered your own question?"These two degrees pretty much allow me to do one thing, and that is be a minister in a church. While faith, and religion remain a staple in my life... circumstances have changed in such a way that I do not think I will ever be employed by a church."Your move into woodworking would follow in the foot steps of one J. Christ and in that vein your undergrad and masters (if you decide to complete it) could be useful.A little more temporally, expertise in marketing and business would be helpful. As has been said many times on this forum, woodworking businesses don't fail for a lack of woodworking skill.Regards,Hastings
Kyle,
The Jammer gave you the best short answer to your question, worth repeating in summary:
"You can make a living at anything..... You can also fail to make a living at all those things..... Woodworking is just another item on that very long list".
Many others have pointed out that the business of woodworking is mostly about business and little about woodworking. So do you want to run a business or enjoy yoursen making wooden items of utility and beauty? If the latter, it's best to keep woodworking as a hobby.
There are exceptions that (unfortunately) gain prominence. The Maloof or the Krenov model appeals to would-be professional woodworkers and tends to hide the business-drudgery under the sheen of their success. One comes across many other commercial woodworking ventures where drudgery is the general order of the day and fellows have to make the same boring old kitchen cabinet most of the time. They are compromised and rarely get to make what they would like to make.
In any case, even the kitchen cabinet making becomes a welcome relief from the business drudgery they must do 90% of the time.
Is there something of this story revealing itself to you with the divinity-education scenario? You want to learn about matters to do with spirit and apply them in the world; but any related employment seems to involve the drudgery and compromise that goes with the various institutionalised aspects of churches? Just a guess.
****
Ambitions to join work and pleasure are laudable. Some manage to do it. Many others fail or (worse) find themselves in a long limbo between failure and success. Only you can decide if you want to take the (considerable) risk; and whether you have the drive to not just succeed financially but deal with all the necessary compromises, one way or another.
Personally I regarded work as a necessary evil and became a wage slave. Even wage-slavery offers some delights and pleasures amongst its frustrations, not least a decent wage and pension. But also some interesting activity albeit often polluted with management idiocy, office politics and the like.
However, the beauty of 9 to 5 is that 5 to 9 is all yours (as well as the weekends). Many of my self-employed friends work 12-14 hours a day, seven days a week. They are rarely content, even when the business is successful.
Lataxe, a now escaped wage slave so free at last.
While I was never a professional woodworker I owned /built a large mechanical contracting firm for quite a number of years and there are some similarities (I’m now retired after selling the business and do some part-time business/sales consulting). The most important question you can ask yourself is “what is a decent living?” Only you can answer that. If the work is satisfying enough that money is secondary then you understand your value proposition. A younger single guy in good health can get by on $500 a week from a 65 hour workweek if he wants too. But what about marriage and sending two kids to college and all the costs associated with that, my daughter’s undergrad cost me $220,000.00. Granted it was a costly school(s) but as a student you know firsthand what those can be. Benefits? Insurance? Retirement?
No matter what, the business of any endeavor is really far more important than the endeavor itself. While I did mechanical contracting the piping, sheet metal, equipment, controls, plumbing etc, etc, were NEVER as important as the business side of the operation. First you gotta sell, and then you execute and document and manage then most important you must get PAID!!!
I do love my woodworking hobby though, the contracting paid for some pretty nice stuff.
Just my thoughts.
Napie,
Given your background, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what it would take for this young man to become sufficiently proficient at woodworking that he has a chance of making a living at it.dHow long would he have to train, if he trained under someone who is already very good? What do you think the cost would be for that training? I am just talking estimates. They could be way off, but something in the way of an estimate might help. How long would it take him to train himself, using books, DVDs and Knots, and practice, practice, practice.I am assuming that he would have to live off of savings while he either got trained or trained himself. Finally, how much would he have to spend on a shop/tools, to be ready to make a living, after he has sufficient skills?I am guessing that if he is a good student in woodworking, it would take him around two years to learn enough, under the tutelage of a good woodworker. I am guessing that it would take more than twice that long if he tried to learn on his own. I am guessing that it would be difficult to put a shop together, even using second hand tools, for less than $5,000. Notice, I didnt ask anything about him learning business skills, and how to run a shop. That is a REALLY difficult question. I am afraid that he is going to get a bunch of very positive advice from folks like the nice person who suggested that he start with Bible boxes and kneelers, and try to make a few bucks off of each from members of the church. Unless he is in a very wealthy, very big church, this clientele couldn't support him, IMHO. My suggestion would be that while learning woodworking, he would have to develop a business plan, with times and dollar amounts that he needs to achieve. If he has only enough money to support himself for three years before he needs income from woodwork, then his plan needs to have sufficient income from woodworking in that amount of time.Also, I believe he has to determine what his focus will be in woodworking, eg, making and installing built ins, making fine furniture, etc. There is an immense amount of competition in most areas in making and installing built ins. Making fine furniture, IMHO, requires that one have access to people with the means to pay for such items. I don't seeing anyone making a living in woodwork by trying to compete with IKEA.I am anxious to hear your thoughts on the time to learn and the cost to get started. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sam Maloff stated in his book that he considered woodworking school a waste of money and that you would be far better off buying tools, machinery and lumber and teaching yourself as he did, who am I to argue. So as to the actual woodworking, I have nothing to add, it’s a hobby for me so if I want a new shoulder plane, I just buy it, a professional needs to access if one is even needed. <!----><!----><!---->
He asked about making a decent living at a craft and that is a business related question not a craft one. Maloff got the equivalent price of a new BMW five series for a rocker that probably will not happen again even though both are good values for the money. It is often overlooked at just how skilled Maloff was at promoting himself, he was a born salesman. So, he needs to do the market research, customer evaluation, skill assessment including his ability to sell (that is key, our economy is sales driven, no order no work) and write the business plan to see if he can make it in this endeavor all framed by his expectations of the lifestyle he wants to derive from it. <!----><!---->
(Sounds like a consultant don’t it…) <!----><!---->
Wasn't Maloof a graphic designer, a pretty fair artist, before he changed media to wood?
I believe he was 35 when he started woodworking fulltime, prior to that he was a graphic artist/illustrator.<!----><!----><!---->
Innate artistic talent transferable to different media. That's what he had.Obviously, not all of us find ourselves in that happy circumstance. It does make a difference.
It seems to me that Esherick, Maloof, Krenov, and Nakashima all turned to furniture later in life. But were involved in other Artistic endevours prior to...
Yep, unfortunately no substitute for raw talent. An analogy from athletics is probably appropriate "you can't coach speed."
Of course those guys are an extreme. Nakashima, Maloof, and Krenov designs are very distinct. I think someone could be considered successful without reaching these levels.
Honestly all my business experience points at one thing: You have to be very good at marketing yourself, you only have to be competent at you're chosen skill...
Mel, I'm not Napie, but I have part of an answer.The trades have had established apprenticeships for centuries. A modern apprenticeship is a course that has evolved over that time, and is designed to be the fastest route from here to there. That wasn't always the case, in the Middle Ages, an apprentice was another stream of income for a Master, both in his tuition and in the work he did. That has changed; now an apprentice's wages are set to generate a small payoff for the employer, but in practice it's approximately the same payoff you get from hiring a J-man. An employer is expected to donate the bad language necessary.At any rate, a modern, formal apprenticeship consists of classroom work, (in union classes, the lectures are on dvds) supervised "projects", (supervised by J-men who are chosen for their ability to teach and employed by the union at the school) and employment. In my opinion, all are necessary-- you must have the experience, there is no substitute for work performed under the gun, and in light of the cold, hard fact that if you can't keep up on this, you're going to lose your job. You must have the "projects", because no one under the gun wants to talk an ape through hanging a door for the first time, and you must have the classroom, because on the job, the J-men he's working with may or may not be able to teach him what he needs to know, and may have little or no interest in answering his questions. Not to mention that there isn't TIME to answer the question "what is slump?" during a concrete pour.The payoff for an employer is simple. A brand new, raw first year apprentice starts at 60% of J-man scale, and is promoted in increments of 5%. If you take him and teach him to nail sheathing, and you drive him to do so reasonably quickly, say, at 80% of the rate of a J-man, you make 20%. That's your incentive to teach him individual tasks, and give him just enough knowledge to do one thing, and a reasonable amount of slack to "practice". Then if he isn't cutting it, you replace him. Being laid off is, in construction, a teaching tool. One of the wisest things an apprentice can learn to do is to go to a foreman who has just laid him off, and ask "is there anything I can do to improve on my next job?"So, after taking the long way around, my opinion is this: modern apprenticeships, a combination of class, projects and experience, are the fastest way to learn a trade. Cabinetmaking (millwork) is a trade. Carpentry is a trade. Furniture making is a trade. There's nothing new here. Those trades are literally centuries old, and while the curriculums, equipment and methods evolve, they evolve slowly enough that the trades aren't that different from thirty years ago.You can take someone, sit them in a classroom, and stuff everything into him about how to build a house, or a tiltup, or a cabinet, a chainsaw or a milling machine, until he can pass any test on paper. But when he gets out to the jobsite, he's still going to beat the hell out of his thumb with his hammer, until he learns. Likewise, if you take a guy and have him nail pans for four years and never teach him about the theory of concrete, you'll have a guy who can nail pans faster than anyone in the county, but won't be able to do anything else. It's not just about knowledge and it's not just about experience.When someone tells me today that he has three years building furniture, I hear "fourth year apprentice". That's being VERY generous if he's working alone, without instruction.The apprenticeship to become a Journeyman Carpenter is designed to be four years long. Millwork used to be four years long, I don't know if that's changed, there were rumors a few years ago that it might change. Furniture is four years long. At the end of that time, you will be a Journeyman, and will have a fairly good, basic understanding of working as labor in your chosen trade.Business is another story. Management and leadership demand different knowledge, and more experience. No one will follow a foreman who doesn't know the trade, for starters. Past that, most of business can be taught in a classroom, and a Bachelor's in business would be, in my opinion, a fine place to start. Not to mention that paying tuition at a university is MUCH cheaper than paying your accountant to explain a balance sheet to you, or an attorney to explain the various forms of limited liability companies. Don't even get me started about contracts and fiduciary responsibilities, and how that can apply to a civil suit.Leadership is an extremely complex subject, but it's also surprisingly simple. Leaders are not born, they are created. Leadership is a skill, it can be taught, learned and deliberately employed. It is by far the most difficult to master and has by far the greatest payoff.So how long to learn woodworking? My answer would be four years, provided that you have a source of good, consistent instruction.Good luck, and to the original poster, welcome to the trades!
Jammer.
IMHO, your response is a classic. I hope the OP reads it. He has gotten some very good feedback. Prunus (Charles Stanford) gave him excellent advice, and so didn't you. But, you know, our advice has been "general" and not specific to the OP, who we barely know. The OP has put six years or so into getting two college degrees. Given that, my recommendation would be to get a job related to his degrees and learn woodworking while doing that. Six years is a BIG INVESTMENT in time and money. All three of my kids have advanced degrees. If any one of them had told me that after getting a masters or a PhD, they were going to dump all of that to go into something else, I would have lost my cool and delivered a lecture that they wouldn't have paid attention to. Luckily they used their education well. There is nothing wrong with going to college and studying something for a while and then deciding it is not for you. BUT SIX YEARS IS A LONG TIME, and six years is average for two degrees. I have never had woodworking lessons. But I have been learning slowly since 1968, with no reason to learn more quickly. If I were going to get into woodwork, I would surely find someone who I believe is GOOD, and work for them. I would only do this with someone who is successful in the business end of woodworking and was going to teach me the business end as well as the woodworking end. Can you learn woodworking by yourself? SURE, most of us do. But most of us here in Knots are hobbyists. I guarantee you that if I worked for Ray Pine or Rob Millard or Richard Jones for a few years, I would learn infinitely more than I could figure out by myself. But there is one guy who is well known to have been successful in teaching new woodworkers to become successful in the fine woodworking business. He is David Savage, of Great Britain. He would be my first choice to learn the woodworking business. Last point. If a kid came to me and asked me to teach him woodworking, I would consider it, but I would first check for something, and that something would be "fire in the belly". He or she would have to REALLY WANT to learn, and that would have to be demonstrated not by words, but by what they have been doing - trying things, reading, learning, making things, getting some tools, etc. THere is a young guy here on Knots with fire-in-the-belly, and that would be Chris (Flairwoodworks). He is a real up and comer. Reading what the OP has written, I see more of a gentle inquiry than fire in the belly, but I may be wrong.Thanks for your great response.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I take offense to you stating that I'm Charles Stanford. I prefer to keep my anonymity, but I can assure you that my name is not Charles Stanford. You shouldn't make these assumptions in public to the entire forum. I come to this forum to discuss woodworking topics, and to help out when I can. Unlike Charles Stanford (he admits this openly) I get no satisfaction from seeing the forum wars rage on between individuals. In fact, it disgusts me, so I stay away from those threads.Let's try to get it right, ok Mel?
Prunus,
I apologize. No offense intended. I think highly of Charles.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Perhaps you could go back and edit the post....
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/18/2009 11:59 am by forestgirl
Mel, I post under the above name. That's it.
Charles,
I thought you also posted under the name Forestgirl. I guess I was mistaken. :-)Glad to hear you are limiting yourself to one name now. I believe that is a good idea. -- not a necessary one, but a good one.Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I've thought about creating a screen name and posting as a total alter ego, a real goody two-shoes, but I just couldn't bring myself to it.The waterfront is more than covered with them.
You can make a living at anything.
People make livings singing songs, writing (and reading) poetry, talking on the phone, babbling on the radio, posing for pictures, climbing mountains, teaching scuba diving, music, painting or driving, watching TV, fixing teeth, cars, air conditioners and listening to people talk about their sex lives. Some people even make a living having sex.
You can also fail to make a living at all those things.
Woodworking is just another item on that very long list.
I'm just a hobbyist so read this with that in mind. If you want to make a small fortune in woodworking start with a large fortune. You are better off being a so-so woodworker and a great business person than being a great woodworker but just a so-so business person.
If your master's is an MBA that would be a good thing.
A very good question andone that most of us ask at some point the answer is yes you can if you are very luckyI firstly sauggest you buy a book called CABINETMAKING A PROFESSIONAL APPROACH [2nd edition ]by ALAN PETERS ISBN No 97885442-111-4 This will tell you prety much all you need to know Of course your work has to be good enough and a sufficiently high enough standard to command the pices you will have to charge. If at all possible try and find someone who is already doing it and talk to them BEST OF LUCK GED
I'm going to give you a dose of reality. You say that you are a beginner at woodworking. That's a good place to start. However, what you are suggesting is about as likely as saying "I want to be a professional basketball, baseball, football, or (insert sport) player.
You have to first acquire the skills to make either furniture, crafts, or cabinetry that people are willing to purchase from you. And, you have to be able to do it at a high level of skill, over and over again.
Now that you have this wonderful skill developed, you now need to have a properly outfitted workshop with all the necessary tools for you to complete the projects you plan on selling (remember that word.....selling).
Now, you need to have capital, otherwise known as money, money, and money. It can exist in the form of a wife whose salary is enough to pay all of your bills, or it could exist in the way of a line of credit against your home (which I STRONGLY advise against), or even a rich relative willing to properly back you.
Now, you need the knowledge and experience to properly set up and run a successful business, with the ability to change hats from woodworker to janitor to building engineer to accountant to manager to SALESMAN (notice, in capital letters.)
Now, with all this in place, you need the most important skill of all. You must be an excellent sales person. Some of the finest craftsmen and women around the country are starving because they can't sell food to starving people. If you don't have a background in sales, or at least the affinity to successfully communicate and sell to other humans, none of the other aforementioned skills are going to help you much.
All of these things listed above are critically important to a successful business plan. However, only being an outstanding sales person can overcome starting a business in the present world economy that we all find ourselves in. To put it plainly, this economy is probably not the best for starting a new endeavor in. In fact, if you were my son, I'd tell you to forget about it for a few years.
Develop your skills in woodworking, and see where that goes. Stash a few thousand bucks in the bank for the rainy day that is certainly going to come, and learn what you can about operating a business.
I've only covered a small bit of what it takes, but it's a start. Ask questions.
Edited 9/16/2009 6:02 pm ET by PrunusSerotina
kyle,
for what it's worth, i did cabinet work for seven years and that was my sole source of income for that time period. i never had to advertise, as all work came by word-of-mouth. i learned a great deal. mostly what not to do. my skills improved. the work was often varied. mostly built-in type cabinetry, some furniture and plenty of entertainment centers. in 1992 i was asked if i would like to teach high school wood shop and i went to work at several inner-city schools in los angeles. my partner from 17 years ago is still at it. he does ok. having good insurance for my family and a steady paycheck has been nice. i still take on cabinet work during summer, as i do not get paid during that season. i still suck at bidding so i do now what i did back then. i run all of my bids past my cabinetmaking friends, and that seems to work out fine also.
just my experience...
eef
A good place is to start is to buy this book. It' is actually written by a woodworker.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Start-Home-Based-Craft-Business/dp/0762728337/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253146248&sr=1-3-spell
http://www.mvflaim.com
Kyle ,
Howdy , Yes it is possible to make a decent living doing wwing.
Not easy though .
( the definition of decent may vary )
As far as what kind of work ,, well you need to stay within a field that has a strong demand for workers and product in general . You may be the best custom Pew maker in the state but if they need cabinets , thats what you need to do , maybe finish Carpentry , maybe stairwells ??
With very few exceptions you will do best when you do what it is that you are best at .
What is your experience ?
Most larger shops will hire a college student before an old pro .My advice if you are serious get a job doing the work you think you are best suited for , you will get paid to learn and observe .The education you can receive from employment like this can be the perfect balance along with your degree .
You mentioned your personal spiritual self and all I will tell you is this about that : one day in my shop many years ago , I realized I was not doing this work alone .
regards dusty
Dusty,I thought you would be one of the first to hit this post. You usually have a good thoughts on the buisness side for our charging youths!Anyway, bout that carpenter/stairway thingy....Wasn't there something special about that same combination in old Santa Fe, at the Loretto Chapel?An incredible stairway with two complete 360 degree turns with neither nails or screws to keep it from falling down. It's only support is it's own geometric balance. Of significance to the chapel people was that it has thirty three steps.Gorgeous weather up here but the rains are starting. Not long before the gales of November.BB
Hey I saw that stair when I was about 9 years old. One of dad's holidays from #### Think Chevy Chase Family vacation.There is quite a story behind that stair. At the time I did not appreciate it but since have come to realize what a unbelivable feat it would have been to make.
Hey BB ,
I was reading the great replies that so many had offered up and only tried to touch on an area that had not been talked about.
Something about the tone of the OP questions and personal position that I found interesting ,,, yes you stepped on what I laid down , the stairwell / Carpenter thing .
I was about 8 years old when we visited N.M and went to Santa Fe and I did see that stairwell and learned the story behind it . Hey , maybe thats what got me interested in wood working .
A good easy read for the Op and any woodworker with a spiritual side is a book called "Joshua ".
The Chinooks are thick right here on the middle Rogue as well as at the mouth .Air Temp in the 90° range still .
regards from down in the valley dusty
Dusty,Was there bout 20 years ago. Interesting story. Most remarkable is there is no center column to wrap it around. Lends to the mystique. You just have to visualize how he built it. Absolutely stunning in person. Does make you think about woodworking.Yeah, after the last two rains, they smell the fresh water and are moving up the Alsea, Siletz and the Salmon Rivers. Cut the alder in 6" disks, brine them out in Scotty's and get the smokers ready boys and girls!A Cab or Pinot Noir or better yet a Bordeaux, some English white cheddar and smoked alder salmon, and evening fire ... fall is great!
A single malt Scotch is good to!Be well,BB
Some people believe (especially the nuns) that St Joseph himself built the staircase.
The staircase is a miraculous achievement that has never been duplicated.
Here's the link.
http://lorettochapel.com/history.html
http://www.mvflaim.com
Hi guys,Um you know that staircase in SFNM was actually debunked as a miracle a while ago. More interesting to note however was that it actually came from Europe as a mail order item. I know this because I have lived in this area for 36 years. The article was printed up in the "New Mexican" a few years back . The carpenter was never seen working because he was waiting for the box to arrive. When it came, it just took a few days to install. There's more to the story about the railing or lack of one for a while, and also about money issues or not getting paid.
: ( staircase has been debunked? If it came from Europe as a kit are there similar staircases like it standing in Europe?
http://www.mvflaim.com
Sorry about that Mr.mvflaim, I should not have offered that story without docs. If you'd like I'll do the leg work for you and get back to you later.Omah.
no that's okay.. I looked it up under snopes.com
http://www.mvflaim.com
Some famous names are successful artists whose chosen medium is wood. They are more artists than they are 'woodworkers' regardless of how they describe themselves.
There are lots of successful artists around working in many different media.
You're going to have to do a bit of a self-evaluation to see where you fall in the spectrum of people who making a living with wood. With an honest self-assessment in hand then you can proceed to explore business opportunities that entail the use of wood during the work day.
The most romantic image, that is, a small shop producing outstanding original works, or outstanding reproductions of standalone furniture (and making a decent living doing it) is a reality only for an incredibly small percentage of shops.
Edited 9/18/2009 1:05 pm ET by CStanford
Kmausmus,
Let me throw out an idea that came to me in the past two weeks.
We have been having some work done on the house including painting, paving and re-pointing the front porch. Some of the wood needed to be replaced on the house(clapboards, corner boards, front door surround). The painter provided the carpenter and, where possible, plastic replaced the wood(corner boards, window surrounds). All was good until they confronted the front door. It is a greek revival/Georgian design and having it milled up in plastic was something they had never done.
The door has columns on each side that are 5.5 inches wide with deep flutes (5). Over the columns is a flat panel(about 5") with 3" wide piece above that with an ogee edge. On top of the door is a design that is make of more ogee edged 3" wide boards, dental molding and 3/4" round. My point in describing the detail is that it is all easily makable in my shop and most others too.
For the painter or the carpenter the cost of replacing that door surround would have been huge. In addition to sourcing, they would have to provide many details to the mill shop and retrieve and install when completed. I took responsibility for all that and banged out the parts in a day. It meant a lot to the painter and carpenter, i probably could have gotten a nice days pay....oh, and it was fun.
Perhaps there is a market for helping out painters and carpenters replace needed pieces?
Kyle:
I can't offer any advice on making a living as a woodworker except to note that:
a) Life is short and we should all follow our passions. You have contemplated a life of spiritual devotion, so understand this point well. Life is short; follow your passion.
b) Life is long and full of possibilities. I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who owns 3 planes. He didn't begin flying until he turned 50. Julia Child's interest in cooking didn't ignite until she was in her thirties and she didn't record a show until she was in her 40's. Her signature work did not even begin until an age when many people think of themselves as "mid career". Norman Vaughn, a recently deceased Alaskan hero, didn't come to live in Alaska until his late 60's. As i hear it, he arrived broke and built a full and vigorous life from there, running sled dogs, doing the Iditarod multiple times, going back to Antarctica in his 90s, and then passing over the bar at about 100. Life is long and full of possibilities.
Enjoy!
Randy
Randy,
Ah, you must be a die-hard romantic. I love your
"Life is short and we should all follow our passions."Suppose your passions are to:
- eat lots of cheesecake, ice cream and chocolate even though you are a diabetic
- have fun and play all the time even though you have no income
- have sex with every beautiful woman you see, even though your wife objects
---- etc etc etc.
You get my drift.I would offer a more asctic aphorism:
"all things in moderation except moderation itself."One must have a modicum of self control to make it through the day, and to make it through life. One must do a little self deprivation to get a college degree -- Delay of self gratification. Good things will come later if I work hard now. I know people whose passions change with the season. How can one follow them? They are too fleeting. There is something to "common sense", as opposed to "following one's passions." I did woodworking until I had kids. Then there was much less woodworking until they grew up. Now there is more. I suppose I could have just spent more time in the shop and let the kids raise themselves, but I didn't.The posts by the OP are disturbing to me. He has spent six years getting two college degrees. Now he wants to try woodworking. !!!!! EGAD. That is disturbing. He has invested a good part of his life chasing something he is so little interested in that he wants to look into something he knows little about. There is something to "maturity" to make one's big decisions. I don't see any maturity in dumping a six year education for something you don't know about. I estimate it would take him four years and many thousands of dollars to get tools and skills to be able to even have a chance of making a living in woodworking, and he has to have the money to support himself and his wife while he is doing this.Rather than say "Follow your passions" to such a person, I would encourage him to "grow up and get a life". He has responsibilities. Why not get a job in the field he has spent six years preparing for, and use excess funds from that to try woodworking. This post is actually about myself, not the OP. I wonder about me. Why am I the only respondant who expressed the idea that the OP should take the responsibility to take control of his life? Am I too hard-nosed? Am I completely lacking in "caring"? Am I too conservative? I am marching out of step with the rest of the world, so I must be wrong. By God, it is difficult to face facts like that. So I change my advice to the OP. Forget everything I have said. Forget trying to support yourself and your wife. Forget your six years of study in one area. Become a hedonist. Embrace life. Follow your dreams. You don't need money. Look at the birds and the flowers. Are they concerned about the future? No. Does God care less about you than the birds and lilies? God will provide. No need for you to worry about a place to live and food to eat. Son of a gun. I am choking on these words. They can't be right.AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHI am going to stop giving advice. I can't figure out what is right.Have fun.
MelPS I really enjoyed that. Hope you did too. I like to propose conundrums. I hope the conundrum causes the OP to think. One cannot ask more than that. Remember "Life is hard, and then you die." but in terms of "follow your passions, I am reminded by a funny poster from decades ago. It shows a man with his back to the camera standing before a beautiful panorama of mountains. He is wearing a raincoat, and he is holding it open. One can see his back, the opened raincoat, and his shoes and socks. One would guess he is not wearing pants. The caption reads "Expose yourself to the Rockies". Maybe not everyone should do everything that is on their minds. I am, as you might guess, a frustrated writer and philosopher. THis post was not a rant. It was an exploration of the difficulties of giving useful advice to a person whose background, interests, capabilities, etc, we know nothing about.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Morning Mel. Thanks for your thoughts.
I should edit my post to read: "Life is short; Mel's posts are long." And thank you for pointing out that life is an endless series of conundrums. You have identified a key one.
The second half of my post was something to the effect that "Life is long, like Mel's posts" and was meant as a complement to the first. You have pointed out that different times of life require or allow different passions to ebb and flow. You put woodworking on hold and focused on another passion (kids) for a while. I trust that's a case of one passion replacing another for a time.
The OP told us way back in post #4: "I have a bachelor's in Biblical Studies and am working on my Master's in Divinity. These two degrees pretty much allow me to do one thing, and that is be a minister in a church. While faith, and religion remain a staple in my life... circumstances have changed in such a way that I do not think I will ever be employed by a church."
So we do know a little bit about him. Doesn't sound like someone irresponsibly following passions by accosting women and flashing large mountains. Sounds like a thoughtful chap who has reached a critical decision point. Sounds like he may have reached that decision point after a bit of deep introspection and analysis. Doesn't sound like a diabetics-dive-into-cheescake kind of guy. Sounds like someone who understands that life is about choices (many hard) and discipline and tradeoffs.
He has received lots of sound (and some very pragmatic) advice here, including from you and I hope from me. The last thing I would hope for Kyle is that he pursue a life where he failed to define or develop his passions. I have a brother who is doing that; it is a painful thing for him and all who care about him.
Life is short and long. My posts are usually short, but this one is long.
Best regards,
Randy
ps, I often use dthe phrase "everything in moderation...including moderation itself." You are the only other person I have heard use it. Should that concern me?
Randy,
Great post. You are in trouble for the use of that phrase :-)I will keep this one short. I read Kyle's statement that he would not find a job in a church. I feel it is very late in a six year education to come to that conclusion. But let's be positive. I went on Google and typed in "find church job". I got 41 MILLION hits. The first one was a website that helps you find jobs in churches. It is:http://www.churchjobs.net/Given the number of websites on finding jobs for people in churches, a person with two degrees should have a shot at a job.I spent three minutes trying to think of how I would find a job in a church, besides using Google. One would be to join the Military. They are always looking for chaplains and assistant chaplains. I believe if you sign up now, you can get something like $70,000 in education expenses and bonuses. I am not sure of the number, but it is a lot of money. I could go on. I won't.
I am disappointed that Kyle didn't seem to do the obvious things one would do to figure out what the job possibilities BEFORE going to college, or now to find out the job possibilities that are listed on the web. To make it in the ministry or to make it as a woodworker, one has to be a go getter, to be creative, and to be able to solve one's own problems (for the most part). Have fun.
Stop reading my posts. (are those two things mutually exclusive?)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel:
My presumption is that it goes a bit deeper than concern that he won't be able to find an opening at a church. I suspect there are many ways to take the passion and drive that sends one through college and most of the way through a masters in religion and apply it other than preaching from the pulpit, and that might be a good avenue to also pursue while testing out real interest in woodworking. Your suggestion to look at military chaplaincy was a good one along these lines.
Randy
Randy,
Perhaps Kyle might consider that an education is not necessarily a mere precursor to getting some specialist job? There is a lot to be for regarding education as worthwhile for its own sake. Some subjects are just interesting.
That said, who knows how an education in even the most arcane subject might be used in life? Many still study ancient greek and other classic subjects, none of which have any obvious or immediate relevance to modern life or work. Yet the perspectives of the ancient world, along with the acquired ability to learn esoteric stuff, may enhance ones ability to adapt and succeed at many jobs.
I imagine that the study of divinity might be just such a subject. After all, who needs vicars and priests in this day and age? But an understanding of human drives and desires via the study of religion might be a very useful knowledge, wherever one ends up working for one's crust.
Lataxe, who's ladywife has just taken up the study of greek & latin, along with the highly practical study of horticulture - having just given up working.
Couldn't agree more. Good on your wife for treating learning as a life-long endeavor.
Sir . Your Lady wife has given up working.??I think the Colleen has paid her dues and now can focus on the finer things in life, hopefully you.At the top level of Maslow's theory of needs. She is at self acutelization spl. stage.Yes! learning is a life long tour, if one choses to stay on the tour.I think of many Troll's, Moor dwellers and general No good Nick's dressed in Dark Blue Suits. Who have quit learning and are leaving their evil slug trail across the forward thinking.
First of all, let me say thank you to everyone who has contributed advice. I appreciate the time you took to attempt to help me out. It really has given me a lot to think about.Now, I'd like to clear up a few things. Please do not assume that I have just come to this decision flippantly. Believe me, I understand the ramifications of leaving 6 years of school behind for a different career.Perhaps this is not the proper forum for what I'm about to say, and if so I apologize, but enough people have said that they know very little about me, that I feel compelled to share a bit. My faith has been, and will continue to be a very significant part of my life. When I originally considered going into vocational ministry, I did all the research about what I degrees I would need and what kind of jobs those degrees would prepare me to do. Throughout the course of my studies however, I found myself more and more disillusioned with the church as an "institution." This has led me and my wife, to radically change the way we think about church. We are now actively involved in church planting. We are taking church to people who normally would have no interest in going to a church building. Part of this new idea is that as a minister, I will be able to relate to people more easily, if I am not their paid, "Holy man." So I do have that "fire in the belly" for the church, and for my faith. I have a very clear picture of what my life is to be about. What I don't know is... how to pay for it. This is where my woodworking question came in. You are correct in saying I don't sound like a have a real drive, or passion for woodworking yet. I don't. I'm interested, and am simply exploring several options.
Once again, thank you all for your advice. Thanks for reading my wall of text, and I hope it clears some things up. As always I'm willing to talk more in depth about it with anyone who is interested. My e-mail is [email protected]. That way we don't clutter up a forum with non-woodworking topics :)
Blessings
Kyle
Kyle, I believe the "fire in the belly" phrase was being applied to woodworking, not faith.I believe he was saying he doesn't hear it in your posts for woodworking.
"I have a very clear picture of what my life is to be about. What I don't know is... how to pay for it. This is where my woodworking question came in. You are correct in saying I don't sound like a have a real drive, or passion for woodworking yet. I don't. I'm interested, and am simply exploring several options."
Without the bit I've highlighted in blue and bold you'll never be a woodworker of any note, not even a bad one I'm afraid.
Get the drive, determination and the desire to be the best and you might get somewhere if you are lucky.
That sounds a bit like having religious faith to me, something I seem to entirely lack. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Kyle,
Thanks for your last post. YOu definitely were not cluttering up Knots with posts which are not about woodworking. Your post was CENTRAL to woodworking. It has been a good, thought provoking, thread.I am the one who has been the hardest on you, and it turns out I was correct in assuming that you don't have a passion for woodworking. Richard Jones (Sgain Dubh) said it right, that without that passion, you don't have a chance in making a career in woodworking. I wish you well in whatever career you decide to go into. I certainly understand that as you learned more about whatever Church you belong to, you saw things that you didn't like. That is a sign of intelligence. Churches may be about God, but they are led by people, and people are not perfect. Stop back after a while and let us all know how things are going for you, and what directions you plan to take. I posted some suggestions for finding a job in a church. Just check in Google. There are sites which help you find church jobs.Also, I checked http://www.monster.com for jobs in Waco, and there were over 50 listed, but none for churches. Maybe you could use a service like that to get an interim job until you find something you want to spend your life at.I used that phrase "fire in the belly". It describes a person who is PASSIONATE about their work. It is misleading. Most men do not have fire in the belly about their work. Remember Thoreau's famous saying, "THE MASS OF MEN LEAD LIVES OF QUIET DESPERATION. " Most guys go to work every day and push paper in an office or do something in a factory. After all, one has to provide food and shelter and something more for our family. THis is a necessity. If, as time goes by, you come up with something that pays, which you really love, that is great, but it is not "common", in my estimation. I was lucky enough to spend a career with NASA. I enjoyed it immensely, but I gotta tell you. If it wasn't for the money, there are some days that I probably would not have gone to work. :-)The folks here who wrote to you are nice folks, and they really care. They took the time to try to give you some help. They tend not to be harsh. My posts were a bit more incisive, but only because I was trying to help. Now it is up to you. Find a way to provide for your family. That is the first order of business. As time goes by, then find better paying jobs, and ones that you are more interested in. I am fairly sure that woodworking is not for you. Have fun. Good luck. God be with you. Or in Latin "Dominus vobiscum."MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Morning Mel ,
I wouldn't be so sure that with any degree of accuracy we can really look into the possibilities and potential to be a woodworker merely from words on the Internet .Sometimes things are not as they appear .
Get mad at me if you must , it's O.K. but , to tell someone you will probably never will be able to do something is just WRONG at least to my way of thinking
Can you be sure it won't work out ?
Why limit someone potential ?
Kyle is searching at this point , if we tell him it is useless because he is lacking "fire in the belly" where is that written to be a must have ? As an individual develops experience and skills that strong driving force may materialize.While it may be true many woodworkers had the desire to do great works before any formal employment in the field , that's not to assume that a newby who doesn't really know what he wants to do may catch on , enjoy and apply himself as he rises to a professional level , I did .
One thing I have come to realize can be the single most important thing, timing is everything in employment , business and life in general .
regards dusty , just a boxmaker
Dusty,
Don't worry about me getting mad at you. I don't get mad at anyone. The other day, Charles called me a "goody two shoes". I think he is right.
It was Richard Jones who said that without some excitement, he is not likely to make it in woodworking. I was echoing Richard's conclusion, with which I agree.
The last message from Kyle indicates that he really wasn't especially interested in woodwork, but that he is looking at a number of alternatives since he doesn't think he can get a job in the field that he is just getting his master's degree in.
I have given Kyle the same advice I would give my kids. So far, there seem to be two people in agreement that Kyle should look elsewhere. That would be Richard and I. Everyone else has been quite positive with him. You are in the majority. I am, as always, in the minority. Besides, no one pays attention to me, so don't worry about Kyle. As a few people have pointed out, my posts are very long for anyone to read. :-)
I can only hope that Kyle finds something that works for him.
Taking advice from folks on Knots is a risky business. How can you tell who is correct. Richard and I have suggested suggested he look elsewhere. You and others think he should give woodwork a try. I remember many years ago, I asked "pins first or tails first?. I got all three answers. So you tell me which one I should take and why?
The reason I like advice on Knots is: I listen to all of it, and I think about it, and then I DECIDE WHAT I WILL DO. If I fail, then it is MY FAULT, and not the fault of anyone who gave me advice. I have never seen an instance on Kn0ts in which there were no conflicting pieces of advice.
On many of the questions asked on Knots, there are one or two "standard" answers which are not incorrect. And lots of people give that "standard advice". So I find that it is never useful for me to give the "standard advice". My personal approach is to try to get the person to think for themselves. I try to give them ways of evaluating the advice they get from others. My messages to and about Kyle were of that ilk -- to get him to think --- NOW, before he spends a lot of time getting ready for another field which he later finds out is not for him.
Which brings up an interesting problem. How long will it be before he can make boxes which he can sell to make a living? AND HOW WILL HE SUPPORT HIS FAMILY FROM NOW UNTIL THEN? To me, woodworking is the least of Kyle's problems. He needs to figure out a way to MAKE A LIVING now, so he can feed his wife and himself while he figures out what really excites him.
Hope I didn't get you too upset. I am not upset. Indeed, I believe my advice to Kyle is the best he could get. I am glad Richard agreed, but I would stick with my advice to Kyle even if Richard didn't agree.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I didn't say he should look elsewhere. I did say that if his heart isn't in it he'll most likely fail.
Who knows: he could dabble in woodworking aimlessly and rather pointlessly, only to suddenly find that he develops a real liking for the subject and the work. That's when the passion could kick in, and that's probably when he would stand a chance.
No-one gets good at anything in a few months, not as a church minister, nor as an engineer, and nor as a woodworker. I'd say it generally takes about three to five years to become decent as a furniture designer and/or maker, the same as anything else really. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
Kyle needs INCOME. He needs a job. He may have debts after six years of university life. As you said, it takes about four years to get a nice set of skills in woodworking, and Kyle doesn't have the funds to carry him through. He needs INCOME NOW.Twer I in his shoes, I would get the best paying job I could get, and I'd work days and another job in the evenings. It could be menial work. That doesn't matter. One must eat. Any port in a storm.I can't believe that after six years of studying church stuff, and getting two degrees, he can't get a job in a church. If that is the case, I would recommend thinking about suing the university he is at. The university owes him some help in finding employment. When I typed in "find church job" in Google, I got 71 million hits, including websites which only search for church related jobs. If none of that works, there is always the military, where he could find employment, food, shelter, and a job related to church stuff, for which he is trained. Besides, if you join the Armed Services now, you can get tens of thousands of dollars for further education when you are finished, and you can get job training in the military. So he certainly can find a way to get some income for the next four years, even if in the military. During that time, he can look into woodwork. Every military base that I have been on has a nice wood shop. Right now, I believe that woodwork is the least of Kyle's concerns, and I don't believe it is very high on his priorities, based on what he has written. Advice is an interesting game. If someone asks you how the Italian national team is doing in soccer, and you see they are about to be hit by a swerving car, I might be best to not answer the question they asked, but rather get them pushed in a direction that may allow them to continue to live. That is what I was doing with Kyle. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I can't believe that after six years of studying church stuff, and getting two degrees, he can't get a job in a church. If that is the case, I would recommend thinking about suing the university he is at...
The university owes him some help in finding employment."
Mel, I find that last statement rather odd. Why on earth should a college or university be responsible for finding jobs for ex-students? Teachers, college lecturers, etc have more than enough on their plates already without being forced to acting as nannies, spoon feeders, bottom wipers and nappy changers for adults that should be big enough, old enough, and ugly enough to look after themselves by their early to mid twenties and beyond, especially if those ex-students are allegedely smart enough to get a degree, Masters, etc.
It reminds me of the sardonic joke about someone acting stupidly where the sarcastic question is fired at them after the incident, "Were you born that stupid, or did you have to go to university and get a degree to develop your stupidity to a high level of academic excellence?"
I'm certainly not saying the OP falls into that category, but I am reacting to your statement. Perhaps you dropped it in to see who might bite? Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
While I agree that oniversities doen't "owe" their graduates jobs, the ones I know all have "recruiting offices" or "placement offices" that do offer their students, and graduates. resources to help them find jobs. Firms looking for employees often contact the universities and the universities make those contacts available to students. Resume books and interview facilities are also common. Counseling and Information on job markets, resume writing, and tactics for job hunting are also commonly available to students, and graduates. These are resources to be consulted at least.
Richard,
Here in the colonies, every college and university that I know of, has an "Placement Office" whose job it is to help students find employment. They hold "job fairs". They get recruiters from businesses to come to the campus and meet with students. They post listings of job offers by businesses. THEY WORK HARD AT THIS. This is standard fare.David Savage helps his students get placed if that is what they are looking for. I would run from a school that doesn't pride itself on the record of its students finding jobs. I know of one, Johnson and Wales, up in Rhode Island, which boasts a job placement record of over 98% within weeks of graduation every year. I would no more recommend a college without a placement office than I would buying a car that didn't come with a warrantee. Before any student selects any program at any school, he or she should check the placement record of that program, and the check out the job placement office at that school. The placement offices at colleges do not "guarantee" they will find you a job, but they do provide resources to help you find a job. But I get the feeling from one of Kyle's posts that he has become a bit dissolusioned about his field. Remember his first statement "I'm at a point in my life where I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. I'm working on a master's degree but not sure that it's what I want to do." Given this statement, I get the feeling that Kyle is no longer really interested in going to work in the area that he has spent six years preparing for. That is different from not being able to find a job. If I am right about that, then my advice to Kyle would be to suck it up, and get a job in the area you are trained in, and do it long enough to provide for your family and to train for another area. My advice would be to not jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Wait until there is another frying pan in sight. Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I really highlighted the wrong bit in your post that irked me. It was the suggestion to sue if the college didn't find a job for a student that really got up my nose.
I work in the educational field at the HE level, and colleges here too have staff that help graduates to find work. Outside that I get requests from employers looking for graduates that I pass on.
Whilst there are such facilities in place I think it would be foolish to claim that an educational institution can near guarantee finding a place for a graduate at the end of a course. Take, for instance, surveying as a subject. anyone that started a course in this in 2006 in the US would almost certainly now find it extremely hard to get any kind of job in the field.
I only know this because my stepson, in his early thirties and a very experienced surveyor, has not been able to find a job in this field for more than six months. And the cause is the economy that once boomed with construction work back in 2006 is now flat on its back. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Anyone anywhere who starts postgraduate studies in Arts generally, esp. English, Philosophy, etc., and even in such SS fields as Anthropology, knows from the start that a career in that field is unlikely. That's especially true in unpopular subareas such as Medieval studies. If the student were in any doubt, the university in question would make it crystal clear to them that if they wished to pursue their studies it had better be for love of the subject rather than for any practical gain. Universities in general take their placement rates very seriously. I don't see that Divinity would be any different, particularly because individual religious groups have specific requirements. I too find the suggestion to sue ridiculous.
Jim
All , I don't think Kyle said he could not find a job in a Church , he said he didn't want to because of a change of heart or feelings about the Church .
The college is not at fault imo , perhaps in Religious colleges there may be no placement guarantee as many other schools do , even if there is or was he don't want it , he has made that clear .
The guy changed his mind , that is not a crime the wisdom and knowledge he has received will not be forgotten , perhaps used in a different way, maybe not .
Maybe He will be a traveling priest / woodworker making Religious figures as he goes happily on his mission .
regards dusty
Dusty,
You said "I don't think Kyle said he could not find a job in a Church , he said he didn't want to because of a change of heart or feelings about the Church ."I believe you are absolutely correct. Here are three quotes from Kyle which convince me of that."circumstances have changed in such a way that I do not think I will ever be employed by a church.""Throughout the course of my studies however, I found myself more and more disillusioned with the church as an "institution.""I'm at a point in my life where I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. I'm working on a master's degree but not sure that it's what I want to do."So he is looking for something to pay his way, right now, to do whatever he knows he wants to do, but has left unsaid. In my humble opinion, it would take him about four years to get the skills necessary to make money in woodworking. I don't think he can afford four more years of schooling without income. Given that, woodworking is not an option for Kyle. He is in a pickle of his own choosing. When he gets hungry enough, or when his wife complains about his lack of contribution to the family, he will either have to do what he is trained for but currently is not interested in, or he will have to find some means of getting income which doesn't require any skills. The second alternative is not fun -- working at a mall or in fast food or in retail clothing.Of course, one could also buy lottery tickets. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Maybe Kyle should consider a marriage of the two disciplines - he could make ecclesiastical furnishings as a profession.
http://www.heavenlywood.com/prie_dieu.htm
Grace-St. Luke's Episcopal Church in Memphis had all its stained glass done by Tiffany back when Mr. Tiffany was still alive and kicking. He apparently came to Memphis to oversee the installation of the windows. They're pretty spectacular as you can imagine and I'm not really sure if a value could even be put on them.Anyway, GSL has kept more than a few local woodworkers busy with other projects around the church. They were, and are, pretty serious about keeping everything really custom. Not many things are ordered out of catalogs.That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about for Kyle.
Edited 9/22/2009 1:11 pm ET by CStanford
I was just sort of kidding that here was the IKEA version of the religious related woodworking.
And while high end work might be where he might want to end up, it might be like the frustrated high end studio furniture maker that ends up doing lots of kitchens just to eat?
Love Tiffany glass, by the way.
Mel ,
Relax , call off the attorneys all is well . For a retired guy you move fast from one challenge to the next , you have great spirit .Sometimes you get a tad ahead of yourself in your enthusiasm.
You remind me of a kid in our old Boy Scout Troop one year at summer camp , this kid asked so many questions that the Boy's made a rule that he was only allowed like 12 questions before lunch or something like that . Naturally the kid had to test it out , the first time he exceeded his limit , I was told they raised him up the flagpole or something like that , duct tape and shrink wrap were some of the other options .
don't make us get out the duct tape Mel .
back to work dusty , feel the wood
Mel, I didn't call you a goody two-shoes.
Charles,
No harm. No foul.
I thought you were referring to me, and I thought you were correct. That means there are at least two of us G.T.S.s lurking around. :-)Didn't realize you had a four month old hanging around. I just had a week long visit by my son, daughter in law and their two month old baby. Also here was my 20 month old grandson. Wow, now I remember how much attention that kids require. Good luck with yours. My grandson likes my workshop. So far, his favorite tools are C clamps, which have things which can be turned in various directions, and the face clamp on my workbench, which has similarities. So far, he hasn't squeezed anything vital. With the two month old, action included hand squeezing, smiling, burping and other bodily functions. But she is really a cutie. I am doing my best to spoil both of them. The older one can already say "Lie Nielsen"! No biases around here!Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:"I was correct in assuming that you don't have a passion for woodworking… without that passion, you don't have a chance in making a career in woodworking."I would agree wholeheartedly that combining passion with natural talent, along with a stick-to-it approach; as well as hard work and all the other ingredients to a successful enterprise, will make it more fulfilling.But, is passion the sine qua non that is embedded in your assumption, or prognosis for success?My brother in law is a very successful lawyer (and accomplished woodworker) but I don't believe he has ever had any passion for it. It was a means to an end; he works very hard and has a good mind.To paraphrase someone on the subject of sincerity:Passion is the single most important ingredient to any business and if you can fake that, you've got it made.Interesting thread!Hastings
H,
You mention a small bit of wisdom for modern times: "Passion is the single most important ingredient to any business and if you can fake that, you've got it made".
This is sad but true. These days the measure of a person's worth seems to have a lot to do with their revealed personality and little to do with their ability to perform tasks or make good their expressed intents. Indeed, action and outcomes are almost irrelevant in a world where image always trumps substance.
The western world and its organisations are now stuffed with people evincing "passions" of one sort or another - bearing their souls and pyches so the wondering masses can decide if they have sufficient charisma - the single qualification for acquiring postion and power. Meanwhile, what they do and their ability (or lack of it) to implement the doings are hardly noticed. No one, in a modern organisation, need be competant if they have managed to project the "right" image and induced a silent awe from their spectators via the revelation of a high passion.
Here and there exist still a few types of activity where image is present but happily not ascendant. Woodworking is perhaps one of them. But even here, we have the "attraction" of IKEA and many even lower quality products, where image has transcended the object projecting it.
***
Me, I like tradesmen and other workers who are quiet, uneffacing and competant. The plumber can be ugly as sin, eat babies for a hobby in the privacy of his own home or send all his money anonymously to the society for looking after daft old pharts retired from NASA. I care not a whit about his wider personality but only about his character as a plumber.
Lataxe, who feels high passions are best confined to opera divas and hysterical television chefs.
Lataxe:Yes it is a very sad commentary about modern life. The industrial revolution gave birth to management as an activity. When we actually made things, competence was more easily discernible than in today's largely information-driven jobs.One large insurance company, which I worked with recently, has conflated being up to date with email as superior job performance (I email therefore I am). Email represents organizational friction and is therefore mostly overhead. Doing productive work is something different.In an environment where information is freely available, attention becomes the scarce resource. We divide people's time into ever smaller chunks and call it multi-tasking. What it really means is that otherwise reasonably competent people are producing crap.As you say, sprinkle the crap with a little charisma and you have today's executive (or bureaucrat). A really empty suit!H
H,
"What it really means is that otherwise reasonably competent people are producing crap".
Just so. Sad to say, the last ten years of my time in the British civil service exactly followed this model. In fact, woodworking became my saviour as taking it up was an antidote to the ever-more pointless gyrations at "work". Woodworking meant the actual production of real and useful objects (sometimes also attractive) via one's own efforts and decisions.
Perhaps a wider piece of advice to Kyle and any other person seeking to stay "real" in the modern world of work would be to avoid those institutionalised "jobs" where crap-production is the norm, in favour of activities such as woodwork (or plumbing, or horticulture or etc.) where real products are directly created and used by people to enhance their lives. The production of everything from food to ipods.
In the western world such opportunities are increasingly rare, as the moneymen favour "service industries" seeing as how these can generate enormous amounts of money from essentially doing nothing but parasitically sucking the fiscal life out of real productive work. In addition, physical production of real things is now regarded as a lowly activity so one is likely to get paid ten times as much for beauracratic crap-work as one will receive for making some good cabinets or plumbing a house.
Nevertheless, it is tempting to say that a person is likely to be more fulfilled albeit poorer should he or she avoid drudge-work as a wage slave in the depths of some crap-production factory. But how many have the choice these days?
Lataxe
Lataxe:You might be interested in Matthew Crawford's book. Here's an extract from NYT review:Matthew's book “Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work” will be published this week. There's an excerpt in the New York Times Magazine.The television show “Deadliest Catch” depicts commercial crab fishermen in the Bering Sea. Another, “Dirty Jobs,” shows all kinds of grueling work; one episode featured a guy who inseminates turkeys for a living. The weird fascination of these shows must lie partly in the fact that such confrontations with material reality have become exotically unfamiliar. Many of us do work that feels more surreal than real. Working in an office, you often find it difficult to see any tangible result from your efforts. What exactly have you accomplished at the end of any given day? Where the chain of cause and effect is opaque and responsibility diffuse, the experience of individual agency can be elusive. “Dilbert,” “The Office” and similar portrayals of cubicle life attest to the dark absurdism with which many Americans have come to view their white-collar jobs.Is there a more “real” alternative (short of inseminating turkeys)?High-school shop-class programs were widely dismantled in the 1990s as educators prepared students to become “knowledge workers.” The imperative of the last 20 years to round up every warm body and send it to college, then to the cubicle, was tied to a vision of the future in which we somehow take leave of material reality and glide about in a pure information economy. This has not come to pass. To begin with, such work often feels more enervating than gliding. More fundamentally, now as ever, somebody has to actually do things: fix our cars, unclog our toilets, build our houses.When we praise people who do work that is straightforwardly useful, the praise often betrays an assumption that they had no other options. We idealize them as the salt of the earth and emphasize the sacrifice for others their work may entail. Such sacrifice does indeed occur — the hazards faced by a lineman restoring power during a storm come to mind. But what if such work answers as well to a basic human need of the one who does it? I take this to be the suggestion of Marge Piercy’s poem “To Be of Use,” which concludes with the lines “the pitcher longs for water to carry/and a person for work that is real.” Beneath our gratitude for the lineman may rest envy.
Also interesting to note that many of the "knowledge worker" jobs have been sent offshore/overseas. It is a bit more challenging to sub out a plumbing job to New Delhi. (unless that's where you live)
The cabinet side of life is a little easier because, unlike the furniture guys, they figured out how to lower costs and keep manufacturing in the US.The furniture retailers decided to go for direct contracting with Chinese manufacturers, which was fine when everything was booming but when it all went sideways they had this huge supply chain of inventory. That's why there is so much inventory at the retail level.For Kyle he has a better hope in cabinetry, shorter learning curve, many outsourcing possibilities and more attractive market compared to furniture.Hastings
Hastings,
Passion has little to do with this thread anymore. Kyle said that he doesn't know much about woodworking and is looking at lots of things.
Even if he had infinite passion for woodwork, it would take him about four years to learn enough to do much work, and he has just finished six years of college and has a family to feed and no source of income. He may even have college debt. HE NEEDS TO BRING IN MONEY TO TAKE CARE OF HIS FAMILY. Passion or no passion, he needs a job. He hasn't got time to learn woodwork in order to start bringing in money. We are down to survival. Survival is more immediate than passion which doesn't seem to be there anyway.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Kyle,
For what it's worth, I believe Sam Maloof started to work with wood simply because he was too poor to afford to buy furniture. Did Sam have that "fire in the belly" for woodworking at that time? Who knows.... But if you start out slow and keep working at it, everything will fall into place in life.
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
Shoe,
"....No good Nick's dressed in Dark Blue Suits. Who have quit learning ...".
Who knows why but for some reason these foolish stopped-learning folk drive me up the wall. One comes to feel that the world is full of stick-in-the-muds who bleat "I can't do that"; or worse, "I was taught as a child that only these ideas are right". Like other folk, I enjoy some stability and continuity in life but it is surely some kind of hell to be stuck down at the bottom of a deep rut with nary a glimpse of the won'drous hills and dales all around.
Which is why woodworking (and the continuous education about it supplied by Fine Woodworking) is so appealing. It certainly contains long and detailed traditions yet these traditions are dynamic; ever evolving. No ruts but plenty of guide rails. The rails take us on many a journey to all sorts of woodworking territory.
Kyle may as yet have no "fire" concerning woodworking but we can probably agree that, should he take it up with some firm intent, woodworking is an easy activity to become enthused about. However, like those who speak from actual experience of woodworking as a job, I think that making it one's source of income is likely to turn it into an ever deepening rut rather than an exciting journey. Accountants, taxmen and other blue-suits ruin such joyous activities as woodworking.
But there are exceptions: folk who make a good living whilst still enjoying the woodworking, perhaps getting some other luckless person to do the books, marketing and other drudge-work. No doubt there is also wage-slave woodwork here and there in which the employee can have an exciting time with wood despite being told what to do with it by a boss.
Can a high ambition allow a fellow to find such happy work? Perhaps but one suspects it's a matter of luck, mostly - being in the right place at the right time. Nevertheless, a passion about it must be a necessary if not sufficient condition for conjoining pleasurable woodwork with moolah-acquisition, as Richard suggests.
*****
Now, the ladywife is a natchl learning-woman. She ceased formal education at 18, turning down a university place to study Egyptology in favour of entering the working world (banks then civil service). She suffers from a public-service ethic, got from her dad. However, several years of maddening frustration in Large Bureaucracies (despite much promotion to high positions in same, along with the necessary learning of many esoteric thangs) have caused her to rethink life and what it offers.
She sees me retired and enjoying the productive life of hobby woodworking as well as a host of other interesting pursuits. I have introduced her to the pleasures of academe, also. Now she must live with me on my pension and I must do without those regular doses of pocket money from her fine former salary (but I have enough Marcous and Festools by now). :-)
Our common motto has become: "Work, a filthy invention of puritanical Victorians".
Lataxe, also free at last.
PS for Kyle. Perhaps devoting some fire to another pursuit, such as woodworking, will dampen down the hot flames of your religious passion? I suggest this is possibly a good thing, since the hot flames of religious passions have consumed many an innocent, one way and another. Still, at least you seem to have comprehended the Very Bad Things that can happen around religious institutions (of all varieties).
I would think possibe if you can make money at a loss...
My middle daughter that just loves children had a Masters.. Working on her PhD?
When trying to find a job she was always told....OVER QUALIFIED for the position...
She just wanted to teach little children! She IS a VERY SMART and Patient woman/girl... She put up with ME!
She teaches at a Catholic school and she just loves her job... ( At little Pay) In two years she was asked to be the Principal.. She said I would rather work with MY little ones!
My ofspring !
EDIT:
I think I said you will NEVER know what makes you happy untill you take SOME job and work with it for awhile...
Edited 9/22/2009 1:22 pm by WillGeorge
The best formula is to have a career or job and do woodworking on the side until the woodworking becomes busy enough to make a living with it. Right now it is very difficult to make a living at woodworking because, the chinese imports that have flooded the furniture stores at very low prices and financing have established lower prices to the consumers. Although the chinese products are junk they look good to begin with, and they fool the consumer into thinking they are getting a bargain. The reputation of the low cost furniture is now beginning to be revealed, but will take a while until people realize the product they have bought is costing them a bundle in replacement costs. I suggest setting up a way for your customers to pay via credit card as this seems to be the preferred method now days. You can get business cards from http://www.vistaprint.com and establish a website for you woodworking. Tripod.com is a pretty good one for a beginning site that is low cost and easy to do. Join a woodworking guild, but most important, do good work, even if it takes a little longer, as this is your word of mouth sales future. Your day job will finance your woodworking career, and prevent you bidding too low just to keep busy because you are desperate for work. Good luck.
Frankly I don't think Chinese import furniture is of much relevance to craftsmen making furniture in small shops. It hasn't been, at least in the past century possible for small shop craftsment to compete with factories on the basis of price making standard items. The individual furniture maker must do things that cannot be done in factories--things that require the custom touch--of a particular size or finish or unique design. Quality not available elsewhere. The aura that comes from the knowing the hands of the craftsman.
Swanny,
"The best formula is to have a career or job and do woodworking on the side until the woodworking becomes busy enough to make a living with it."ABSOLUTELY TRUE, IMHO.But your second sentence indicates that Chinese imports make it hard to make a living as a woodworker. On this one, I agree with Steve Schoene. But that is because Steve and I have a similar view of "woodworking". I believe you have a wider view of woodworking which includes making simpler and hopefully cheaper furniture. I firmly believe that any person who tries to make a living at woodworking by undercutting IKEA or any of the mass marketers of furniture, is on a fool's errand. They use machines to turn out thousands of identical pieces, and they buy wood en masse at greatly reduced prices. A single woodworker cannot compete with that. An earlier message in this thread suggests the OP try to make a living by selling bible boxes to fellow church members. That might be fun, and it will make you a lot of friends, if you do it for $10 or $15, but you will go broke quickly doing that. The difficult, but not impossible part of making a successful one man shop is to find clients that are happy to pay for real craftsmanship and design. These people exist, but they don't wear labels on their heads. You find them or they find you, but making that happen is a real challenge. I don't know where you live, but if it is anywhere near Washington, DC, then go to the Waterford Festival, near Dulles Airport on the first week of October. It has been going on for decades. The people who show and sell there are the best of the best, and the show is well juried. THE PLACE SMELLS LIKE MONEY! The area is very rich, and the people who come, come ready to buy GOOD STUFF. It is proof positive that such people, not only exist, but they are plentiful. Every major metropolitan area has such such shows. Look them up.Hope that helps.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
My point was that, (I have never in 31 years made only the finest furniture) since the major stores have all turned into cheap imports, and the prices have dropped dramatically, the consumer expects to pay less. It is more difficult to sell fine furniture when the costs of the materials exceed what the chinese are retailing their finished product for under well known American manufacturers names. The mindset of the consumer has changed as to pricing. I am asked to repair chinese furniture because it fails in about a year, and the bid I give to repair is high enough for them to simply buy more disposable chinese products which keeps the money flowing into china. We need the same tariff that the tire manufacturers have so we can survive. I am getting 2 jobs a month to refinish kitchen cupboards made in some other country and They are 1 to 2 years old! Right now it is the small woodworkers who are carrying on the tradition, that is, if they survive, and the best way to survive is to keep your day job in these tough times to keep your woodworking alive, until the market shifts. I received an email from a chinese importer to buy dining chairs for $22.00 us.
Hi Mel,I have been following this thread with interest since day one and there is a lot to think about here (as always).You said:
"An earlier message in this thread suggests the OP try to make a living by selling bible boxes to fellow church members. That might be fun, and it will make you a lot of friends, if you do it for $10 or $15, but you will go broke quickly doing that."I believe the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT thing for a business to do is to MAKE A GOOD NAME for itself. Get the word out. As always, there are many ways to do that such as advertising or word of mouth. I think that most will agree that word of mouth is more effective than advertisement. And the best way to spread the word about Flair Woodworks is to get lots of my work out in the world and develop a loyal customer base. MAKE SURE EVERY CUSTOMER IS SATISFIED.Pricing is tricky, to say the least. With small items, such as the bible boxes you cited, they could be priced to break even or to make a profit. If the boxes were priced to break even, what you are gaining is exposure. That is your payment. If the boxes were priced to make a profit, great. Common sense tells us that the same item priced lower will sell more than it's higher-priced cousin. Therefore, there would be more of your boxes out in the world, translating to more exposure.I think that building a name for yourself is the first step to getting a business of the ground. Don't burn your bridges. I said it before and will say it again: Make sure that every customer is satisfied. Once you have a name for yourself and business starts coming in, you can begin to start making money (hopefully).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris, as usual, I agree with most of what you say.In the local chapter of the Master Builders, it was once suggested that we take our advertising budget for thirty days, and use it to satisfy any complaints.People with complaints went to the head of the line. Work in progress would be temporarily halted (which generated some complaints, but I digress) so crews could rush to handle complaints. Any complaint became the highest priority.The result were surprising, in both directions.First, it DID generate a lot of positive publicity. A contractor who drops everything and rushes to fix mistakes is indeed a rare bird, and that will make the phone ring.But second, it became crystal clear to me that there are some people who will not be satisfied.I don't know why, it appears to me that they are afraid of being taken advantage of, and the only way they can sleep at night is if they are sure they took advantage of you.You don't want them as customers. Really. The resources you would donate to them (and it would be a gift) would generate profit if used elsewhere.The Master Builders toyed with the idea of identifying them in advance, but that's another story. They gave rise to the joke "a contractor walked into the initial interview, introduced himself, sat down, and said "okay, if I write you a check right now, how big does it have to be for me to walk away with no further obligation?"The customer is not always right. Sometimes, the customer is a pill.Keeping customers happy is great, and the core of customers I had when I was a contractor is still with me, but they've morphed into my good friends. It turns out that the way a person does business goes a long ways towards telling you about that person's character, and can actually reveal parts of his soul.But if you reveal evidence of pill-dom, or citizenship in the Great Pill Nation, I'll refund your money and show you the door so fast you won't know what happened, and I'll hope that you carry the message back to other pills that this is not a friendly place to do business.
Chris,
Jammersix wrote you a great message about customers, especially the ones you don't want to have. I believe that was the same point that Charles was making when he said that to be successful, you have to know when to say "no". The thing to learn is to "Read" a person and determine whether they will make an acceptable client. I sure would like to hear more from the professionals on some of the things they look for. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Dusty,
I asked you a question in a different thread, and you asked me to transfer it to the Business folder. So I moved to this existing thread on "making a living in woodworking". My question to you was aimed at getting a better idea on how you cost out a simple box which contains a set of drawers. I am building the box, and it has taken me much longer than it would take you. I would like to know what it "should have taken me", if I was a pro. So how would you figure the cost of labor for the following:I am making a box which contains nine drawers. It fits between the four stretchers of ra Sjobergs 2000 Elite workbench. The "case" is made of 3/4" Baltic Birch, and is made up of two horizontal pieces, and four horizontal pieces, which divide it into three sections, each containing three drawers. The drawers are identical: 18" deep, 15" wide, and 4 3/4" high. The drawers are made of 1/2" Baltic birch, with 1/4" Baltic Birch bottoms. It took me one sheet of 3/4", one sheet of 1/2" and one sheet of 1/4". I used nine pairs of Accuride full extention slides. I used Kreg Jig system to make the drawers, but you can use whatever system you want to estimate the hours to build this. I used varnish to finish the entire case and the nine drawers. First one coat of Zinzer dewaxed shellac and then two coats of Polyurathane. You can use whatever finish you would recomment. I used varnish because I am not set up to use lacquer. I made red oak "false fronts" for the drawers. Assume that you don't have to deliver and install the unit. I would pick up the piece at your shop and cart it home and put it in my workbench. I forgot to say that I put a 1/4" back on the box to keep the dust out. Mostly what I would like to learn is the process by which you determine how long it would take you to make the piece.I know the cost of the materials: the three sheets of Baltic birch, the nine sets of Accuride full extention slides, about ten board feet of red oak, a box of Kreg screws, nine drawer pulls, glue, sandpaper, shellac, and varnish. We could use any "box of drawers" to see how you formulate your cost estimate (hours), but since I have experience with this particular box, I'd like to use it. I wondered how many hours it would take a pro to:
- lay out the marerials needed
- buy the supplies,
- make the cuts,
- fabricate the box
- fabricate the nine drawers.
- do the sanding
- install the drawer slides
- apply the finish to all parts, inside and out, including the drawers.
- Did I leave any steps out?????????YOu can see a photo of the Workbench at
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005399/15518/Elite-2000-Workbench.aspxand in that photo, you can see the four stretchers that the box will fit inside of. It will rest on the bottom two stretchers, and will be screwed to the four legs. Woodcraft sells a unit which fits this workbench. You can see it at:http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005399/15657/Storage-Cabinet-For-Elite-25002000-Benches.aspxHowever, I didn't like that configuration. It didn't suit the stuff I need to store in the workbench.After you describe how you would make your estimate of the time needed to construct the storage unit, there will be another good lessons for those of us who are trying to learn what it takes to run a successful cabinetmaker shop. The lesson will be that it costs a lot more to have a professional to make a unit than to buy a mass produced item. The cost of the store bought item is $700. I am expecting that your price for the unit I described will be at least twice that. (but I don't want to bias you.I know you work by the "piece" and not by the "hour", but you must have to estimate the hours it will take, and the cost of supplies to come up with a price to give the customer for the piece. I will post photos of my "box" in about a week. I still need to put one final coat of varnish on the drawers, and then put the false fronts on the drawers, and then re-install the drawers. Please let me know if I gave you sufficient information for you to show me how you would come up with what you would charge for labor on this one. Don't worry about costing the materials. That is easy. Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel , There have been pricing surveys in Cabinetmaker magazine for years now across the nation the price on any given job has a swing like you wouldn't believe. One job was bid from $9,000 all the way to $30,000 , so I'm not sure what wisdom can be gleamed except prices vary .
An interesting fact that was uncovered was that shops very close to the same area had vast differences in prices so it's not just the region , theres more to it.
Many of my jobs are involving weeks or months some have gone 6 - 12 months long on the same job, so the hours turn into weeks and months and there is little separation or importance to me of exactly how many hours a job or task takes .Whats important to me is moving the job along at the correct pace to meet any timelines as well as arrange any draws or incremental payments so I can make my expenses and have some cash flow even during the job build .
I don't know any cabinet shops that bid by the hour to build a job , maybe for shop millwork on short runs or otherwise smallish tasks .The main problem of bidding by the hour is for the client , suppose we work slow , should the client pay more ? If we work too fast do we cheat ourselves ? I give a firm price after years and years of practice , if the job takes me longer I can't very well tell you say, you owe me another payment because it took longer then I thought , that is not the way I roll although some do .
You tell me the materials list but ask only to bid the labor , that is not realistic in general , we can separate the materials from the total price and see what is left but that will also have overhead expenses related to it so it will not all be wages that is left .
I use a formula based on the size of the unit for cabinet work , just for example Jeff Heath from Chicago was charging like $600 - $900 per foot for wall units and such here locally if we could get half that things would be great but the market will not allow it.
I have built beautiful kitchens with all the bells and whistles for about $250 a lineal foot is at the top end of the price spectrum locally , but in your area it won't be a reflection of reality .
The formula looks like this as an example
Base cabinet 5'
9 small full extension drawers
9 Oak faces
1 cabinet back
Clear finish
You can fill in the numbers anyway to fit your area but this will give me a price and I add installation and now and then profit .
Small jobs are difficult to earn on because there is little flow to the job , another few days and I could build 5 units not just one .
I think the $700 they offered the cabinet for was not terribly expensive if it was quality.If you spent 4-5 hundred on materials and spent 60 hours at $3.00 an hour theres your sign .
As I originally said it may take me from 8-12 hours total I would charge between $300 and $400 labor only (in theory) this is not a real way to bid in real life there are too many variables.
regards dusty
Dusty,
A great deal of wisdom in your response. It will be valuable for newbies to read in the future, when they ask "Can I make money as a woodworker?" Your comments about not bidding by the hour are NOT OBVIOUS to the newbie!!!!! Yet who is he going to find that out from? Here, many of the responses were of the ilk "Maloof did it, so you can too." I find such answers to be absolute rubbish. Mario Lanza was a great singer, that doesn't mean I can do it. What would be good for a newbie is easy access to information such as you gave on the differences one sees locally and nationally in the lineal cost of bidding for cabinets.Also, when a newbie asks "Can I make money in woodworking?, as the OP did, we have no idea if they are thinking of building custom cabinets, making bible boxes, or making period furniture. One would go about pricing in much different ways for the three things. As Ray Pine says, he doesn't get to make more than one of anything. You get to make cabinets again and again. While they are not exactly alike, there is much more similarity than there is to Chippendale highboys. Pricing for Ray and For Rob Millard would be a bit different than how you would go at it. I hope we can get Ray and Rob involved in this.I just heard from Derek that Richard Jones has published an article on pricing the making of fine woodwork. I have tried to look that up but without success so far. I will contact Richard to see where it is. To me, "Pricing" goes hand in hand with "skill". If you haven't got the skills to make a competitive bid, then you can't get into the game. I was hoping that this thread could help put some data on just how much skill a person has to have to begin making a living at woodwork. Your post is very valuable, IMHO.
Thanks,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
The one area that is devoid of factual data is how one formulates his or her own true overhead costs and expenses .
Richard can tell you how many hours to figure for hand dovetailing each drawer box and preparing the stock but honestly unless you use all the same methods of construction these numbers are merely a guide or matrix to show an individual how to formulate or guess the time involved.
With cabinet work there is much repetition , the more the better to a point . We can run 10 frame and panel doors in a fraction more time then to just run 2 doors .
Real Furniture has an entirely different set of values to each process when compared to cabinetmaking.
Finding out what your overhead actually is has been a handy tool for me , it is not as obvious as one would think . There are so many hidden costs associated with being in business that most folks don't have a handle of a realistic hourly cost to keep the doors open so to speak.
If there is any interest I will post my version of a shops overhead based on my requirements that are similar to most professional shops expense areas .
regards I'm late dusty
Dusty,
"If there is any interest I will post my version of a shops overhead based on my requirements that are similar to most professional shops expense areas ."You betcha there is interest. Your last post, like all of yours, is very valuable. Your input could make this thread one of the best of all time.Most newbies don't have a clue as to the hidden costs of the business, and always tend to underbid. There is no reason why we couldn't give them more insight into this process.Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel & All ,
One simple principle that should be known by business folk in general is the difference between wages and profit . It is no secret but so many of us forget now and then especially when enthusiasm takes hold .
Your hourly wage and your true materials and overhead costs are what it costs you , anything left over is profit , usually .
Materials get charged to each job accordingly.
So many things that will go on your list could easily be forgotten .
This is only one very simple method , much more sofisticated software is available to do your books and such . I like to use a spreadsheet .
Hope this helps regards dusty
Dusty,
This thread is REALLY getting interesting now that we are getting down to the meat of the issue - identifying the important factors in making bids for woodwork that can enable one to make a living - ie - to be a REAL business.Richard Jones's article does it well for furniture design/construction but really didn't say much about overhead and profit. Your worksheet and your message put a spotlight on those two areas. Your spreadsheet is very straightforward and easy to understand. I found a book which may be relevant, on Amazon:Jim Tolpin's Guide to Becoming a Professional Cabinetmaker (Popular Woodworking). Here is the description of the book:"Who hasn't dreamed of doing what they love as their job? Jim Tolpin did just that by turning his cabinetmaking hobby into a lucrative, full-time profession. And now he shows other woodworkers how to do the same in Jim Tolpin's Guide to Becoming a Professional Cabinetmaker. He provides readers with:-Proven strategies for working with clients, saving on costs and improving profit margins
-All the business forms needed, including a job estimating template and a sample client contract
-Illustrated tips on laying out an organized shop, guaranteed to improve work flow
-Streamlined directions for doing what cabinetmakers really love: building amazing cabinets "Even better, here is a comment from one of the folks who wrote a review:"many people who love to work wood decide to do it for a living, and this book covers the basics. as far as this type of cabinetmaking book goes, it is pretty good. for most of us, the cabinets are not the issue. the problem is that suddenly we have to know taxes, paperwork, marketing, some law, personnel management, etc.where all these books fall short is in the stuff we don't want to do: set up a business plan in depth. why are you different from the guy down the street who is making boxes too? why are you better, where is your weakness? any book can tell you how to make a face frame cabinet or euro cabinet, but what about the other aspects you will have to know?"Who knows? Maybe this book is of value. I believe we have a copy at Woodcraft. I will take a look.Thank you for your EXCELLENT writeup on calculating overhead.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Boy - I get busy all of a sudden and next thing I know, there are fifty new messages in this thread alone!Mel,I don't much care to fuss over formulas and such, so I try to do away with them when I can. Hey, I'm a woodworker first and businessman second. Here's what I'd consider when coming up with a price for you:
-I'm not well equipped to deal with sheet goods, so working with them is awkward. Break the panels down with a circular saw, then to final size, squared up with the TS (1h)
-This piece is utilitarian. Pocket holes are sufficient, quick and easy. The cabinet is tall enough inside (+14-1/4") to get a drill inside to drive the screws. Joinery is simple and glue is optional (but I would use glue nonetheless). (1h)
-Drawers are all the same and cutting the components can be batched, as can assembly. I don't use pneumatic nailers and don't like the look of exposed pocket holes (they are hidden in the carcase) so I would probably use dadoes/rabbets or similar joinery. Glue up, clamp, and let dry. Of course, you are not being charged for my watching glue dry. (4h)
-Mill drawer fronts from rough stock. (1h)
-Accuride full extension slides are easy to mount and have some forgiveness when installing. (1h)
-Why not use just shellac? It dries hard and fast and is easy to apply. Mix up shellac, set the work up and spray on four coats. (2h)
-Baltic birch shouldn't need sanding, unless joints don't come out flush. It planes nicely! (.5h)
-False fronts (presumably overlay) are forgiving.If you read this next paragraph, please read the whole entire thing completely and wholly!I did not include running out to buy materials, as you have kindly delivered them to me (long drive!). If you wish to include that, add 1.5h to the total of 10.5h est, so 12h. I'm not saying that it would take me 12 hours, but it may take that long. I'll admit that my time estimates do need some work, as I don't keep very good track of how long my projects take - they are measured in approximate shop sessions rather than hours, or even days. At $25/hour, that means my estimated labour costs $300. If my time guess was good, this is how much I would charge to break even. $25/hour mostly because I have a very, very low overhead. It's just a starting point for me. If I am doing a job I really would not enjoy, the figure goes up. Early on I found myself trying to get every job, even the ones I did not want. I don't much like cabinets in general (I bought my shop cabinets) as they allow little creativity. (I am reading A Cabinetmaker's Notebook by Krenov and am beginning to see the light though.) They are less enjoyable and interesting for me, so I would charge more, by feel. Say, maybe $400 for labour COST (not your price).And markup? Yikes. 100-150%, so $800-1000.Mind you that I am making a utilitarian piece, not a work of art - tolerances are not as high. And I don't really want this job.I'm bracing myself for an earful. Please don't hold back - I'm learning a whole lot from this.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
I read your writeup on making an estimate for the box of drawers. It is very close to Dusty's, so I have two in the same ballpark. That should be useful for folks reading this. ALso, you included other things that newbies might not think of, in coming up with a price - going out and getting supplies.
I think you are "nice" to only charge $25/hr, but I believe you are not getting nearly what you are worth. I pay the guy that fixes my car close to $100 an hour. THink about the electrician, the heating/cooling guy, and the plumber. You are much more skilled than they are, and you are an artist, even though the box is not a piece of art.
I recommend you jump to $40 right away. I have a good friend who does woodworking locally. He was born in Iran, and speaks broken English, but he can make anything out of wood, and quickly, and with whatever tools are available. He does a lot of repairs. He told me that his normal rate is $40. He made a guy a nice birdhouse recently, and the price was $400. It was a VERY nice birdhouse, and the guy didn't complain.
If I were you, I would also add in a fudge factor on hours. Something is going to go wrong on every job. Plan for it.
You could buy the storebought version of the box of drawers for my workbench for $699 plus tax. It is poorly designed and constructed, and it was shipped from Sweden, and a few middlemen had to make money on it. So the original maker of it, had to have made it quickly and efficiently, in a factory that is designed for MASS production. I would expect that if you copied that design, you'd have to charge at leat twice as much. You guessed a bit less than that for a better design and construction. That gives me a hint that you were a bit low. However. practically speaking, no woodworker would pay $1400 for a box of drawers for his workbench, so this is just a task we are pricing for the sake of coming up with a description of how pricing can and should be done.
I think your post is a valuable addition to this thread. Nice going. Very practical and down to Earth. Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, you're comparing dollars to doughnuts.And you know it.Or, at least, by this point in this thread, you're responsible for knowing it. :)Chris has given you sufficient information to determine what his doughnut rate is, if you wish.
Edited 9/30/2009 12:37 am by Jammersix
Mel,I agree that my $25/hour (including my low overhead) is very low, but I feel that it will help more of my work get out there to become more established. Kind of like cheap (and very good) advertising. Also, an education of sorts - I am getting paid to build these project from which I gain a lot of experience and learn a lot. $40 is more like it, but I don't feel I can charge that right now.Remember that my price didn't include the cost of materials.One thing I have to overcome is my perspective. I agree that no woodworker would spend $1400 for drawers for their bench. I wouldn't spend $300 to buy a set of drawers for the bench. Then again, I wouldn't buy my bench unless I didn't have the time.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris:"I agree that my $25/hour (including my low overhead) is very low, but I feel that it will help more of my work get out there to become more established."It will get you more established… at the $25 per hour price point. It is a common fallacy to believe that you can "position" yourself with your target audience at one price only to be able to raise it later.Remember price is an important indicator of value. Sell and price your work for what it's worth. Selling it cheap only attracts the wrong audience, who will leave once you raise price to where you would like it to be.Regards,Hastings
Hastings,
I have been enjoying your ideas on pricing. You are a realist.Of all of the things you have said, the one I want to thank you most for is your advice to Chris, who I see to be an up and comer in the woodworking business. As most up and comers are, he is still a bit naive. You said to him: "Remember price is an important indicator of value. Sell and price your work for what it's worth. Selling it cheap only attracts the wrong audience, who will leave once you raise price to where you would like it to be."RIGHT ON! Truer words were never spoken. I hope your words have a first order effect on him. I want him to be a success.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Chris, and Hastings,
I believe you are all correct.
How can that be? you ask.
Well, Chris is correct in that, as an up and comer, he needs to get his foot in the custom woodworking door as it were. One way to do that, is to make your prices so attractive that a customer dubious of your lack of experience will be willing to take a chance on you. Hastings is correct in that if he never changes his pricing schedule, he will ultimately typecast himself, and establish his niche as a bottomfeeder, only getting approached by bargain hunters-- "Call Chris, he's really cheap!"
Imo, Chris, as an up and comer has a limited value he can place on his work. I my experience, building custom furniture involves developing some sort of a relationship with nearly all of my clients. They know at least a little something about me by the time they order, either by word of mouth in their circle of acquaintances, or at least by way of their interaction with me in negotiating the order. If, in my up and coming years, I had presented myself as something other than an up and comer, I would have been seen as a poser, trying to be someone other than who I am. That, I believe is a real deal killer. (If you are selling widgets over the internet, orstrangers walking in off the street, cash and carry, that's something different altogether. )
As Chris gains more experience, and establishes his reputation not as an up and comer, but as a competant, reliable, can-do craftsman, naturally, the value of his work will be enhanced as well. It is up to him to decide when and how much that occurs.
As FG (Forrest Gump, not Forest Girl) says, That's all I have to say about thayut.
Ray
Ray:You make a good point, but I would couch it terms of brand value. You have developed a wealth of experience, a body of work and a market that understands these things - combined these make the Ray brand. Albeit intangible, this is your most valuable asset.What I think you are saying is that presently the "Ray" brand is worth more than the "Chris" brand. Chris has to work on increasing his brand value by building experience, a body of work, etc.Chris cannot overcharge as much for his nascent brand, as you correctly point out.Pricing is 90% judgment so Chris needs to be careful, but I still think he may be erring on the low side.Hastings
Hastings,
I knew it was time for me to raise my prices when my customers started telling me I was too cheap. Another benefit to developing good relationship with clients, I guess.
Ray
Ray,
Glad you jumped in. That was a very nice post. You know, when you open a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.Forest, Forest MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Big long quote from Ray:>"Chris is correct in that, as an up and comer, he needs to get his foot in the custom woodworking door as it were. One way to do that, is to make your prices so attractive that a customer dubious of your lack of experience will be willing to take a chance on you. Hastings is correct in that if he never changes his pricing schedule, he will ultimately typecast himself, and establish his niche as a bottomfeeder, only getting approached by bargain hunters-- "Call Chris, he's really cheap!"Imo, Chris, as an up and comer has a limited value he can place on his work. I my experience, building custom furniture involves developing some sort of a relationship with nearly all of my clients. They know at least a little something about me by the time they order, either by word of mouth in their circle of acquaintances, or at least by way of their interaction with me in negotiating the order."<And another:>"As Chris gains more experience, and establishes his reputation not as an up and comer, but as a competant, reliable, can-do craftsman, naturally, the value of his work will be enhanced as well. It is up to him to decide when and how much that occurs."<Now my response:Ray,That is exactly how I feel, and it is quite reassuring to know that a seasoned pro such as yourself agrees with me. I officially started my business November 1, 2008 and made my first dollar January 31 in the form of wood sales, and on February 8, made my first dollor for my work. Right now, I am trying to price my work low enough to scare everyone away (I have scared people away, but I feel my price was fair so I don't feel any remorse) but high enough to not be cheap. But how do I know when to raise my prices? As you said later on in this thread, you raised yours when your customers told you that you should. But also when I feel I am well established enough to do so, and when I can find clients who will pay more. Market penetration.I do my best to develop a good relationship with my clients. The more they like me and my work, the better chance they will talk about me and my work. The last thing I want is an unhappy customer and I will do whatever it takes to right the wrong. Right now, making money is the least of my concerns (I haven't quit my day job yet).Thanks for the post. I made a copy for myself to refer to.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
FULL DISCLOSURE-----
I would not use myself as a business model. Just sayin'...
Best,
Ray
Ray,And I would not use myself as a business model either. But I do feel that I have something worth sharing that others can learn from.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris , I was told if you get every thing you bid on , raise your prices , but that was old school thinking . Furniture to me is very tricky to bid . I know I did not get paid for all the time spent designing and engineering much of the work I've done over the years but if you want the job you figure it out .
You have nothing to lose what ever you charge you are getting paid to create .
The scope of your works will grow as well as your confidence level you have the skills.
regards dusty
Hastings,Thanks for the comments. Maybe I am more afraid of having no audience at all than the wrong audience, especeially at this point in time, economically. $25 is just a figure to help me establish a bottom-line price, and I would say that the end figure ends up being about $30-35, depending on how many hiccups I run into.It's great to be getting help on the ever-sticky art of pricing.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thank you, Mel.There's no trick to recognizing a pill. Or a crocodile.The trick comes in recognizing that "this swamp has crocodiles!" BEFORE you jump in and try to drain it.It came as a great surprise to me (when I was younger) that the very things that mom tried to teach me were right on the money.Pills display very definite traits, and there are several of them that are easy to recognize. Those are the things mom knew about. Things like being late. Being rude. Doing Things That Would Not Have Pleased Mom. :)There were two primary points that almost always revealed pills: one was a written contract, the other was dinner.Pills don't like to be pinned down, and trying to reduce an agreement to writing would frequently reveal them. The process of putting What They Want into cold, hard words that describe what they want will reveal most misconceptions that a pill is laboring under.If you take someone to dinner, how they treat the waitress bears watching closely.There was almost always a direct line between how they would treat the waitress and how they would treat your foreman.Someone who doesn't feel the need to say "please" or "thank you" to a waitress won't feel the need to be polite to your foreman, either. Pill-like behavior.On the other hand, a customer who is going to be a pleasure to work for usually treats the waitress with careful respect, just as if the waitress were actually a human being, who was working hard for a living.I even knew one class act who was proud of the abuse he heaped on a waitress. I forget his name.Those two got me a long ways. If there was a third, it was easily being responsible for what you say. The former customers who are now my friends all said, at one time or another, in the heat of action "yes, I remember saying that. That's what we'll do."Integrity is a hard thing to maintain with crocodiles locked on your ankles, but I know men and women who have done just that, and they are worth waiting for.So those are my top three. Go forth and sin some more.
Jam,
I would have to rate your post on how to recognize potential clients who are problematic as one of the most insightful and useful posts ever placed on Knots. Anyone can write a post about how to make a dovetail or a tenon. But to write so clearly about one of the essential skills of being a good businessman requires the ability to look deeply into men's souls. Giving credit to "mom" was absolutely a brilliant idea. It lets us all know exactly what you meant. I think that all moms are the same in that sense. Your "test" of going to a restaurant with a potential client and seeing how they treat a waitress is VERY VERY COOL. Thanks for doing that.
Mel
PS take a printed copy of this message and $5 to Starbucks and they will give you a cup of coffee. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jammer,
Your waitress-test is quite a good one. However, to apprehend all the nuances of a personality perhaps the best test is to watch the person concerned drive a motor car. I recommend a car-journey with all patients as a fine diagnostic tool for employement by psychoanalysts everywhere!
As a cyclist I have to watch all sorts of creatures driving their cars about, as many behave in potentially lethal ways. Keeping a firm eyeball upon their antics is merely a matter of survival. Strangely one learns to notice even very tiny signs that presage a gross and utterly self-centred action that may become the cause of extreme personal discomfort. The "pill-personality" has many a signalling twitch that we may learn to read. Reading these signals is also useful when driving one's own charabanc around (with great care and consideration for others, naturally). :-)
Sometimes it is even more alarming to be a companion with one of the more "interesting" personalities as they "drive": they will reveal all kinds of worrying traits as you cower fearfully in the passenger seat saying prayers (for yourself, the pedestrians, other road users and even the personality-challenged driver) despite being completely irreligious.
That remark you made about some personalities adopting the "be a winner or you're a loser" attitude, in all social relationships, is also an important insight. What a sad mental and cultural condition to end up in. I blame the sports coaches.
Lataxe
It is understandable to hear a complaint about your work and want to shut it out. But that of course is the worst thing that you can do. I've found that dealing with such (rare) situations quickly and in an up-front manner is as important, if not more important than doing the initial job so that no complaints are generated. The same goes for tools. I prefer to buy a tool (or anything, for that matter) from someone who stands behind their product, regardless of what quality level the item is.Working in retail really gives one the opportunity to improve people skills and dealing with all kinds of clients. After a while, you get a pretty good feeling pretty quickly of how much it will take to satisfy the customer, and if they can be satisfied. Some people want everything, and it's not enough. And some of those people want it for nothing. Too many, perhaps.I think that the world would be a much better place if everyone worked in retail for a year.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Well, if I spent another year in retail, at least the population would be smaller...
Jammer,In the pursuit of information on what it takes to make money in woodworking, I proposed a question to Dusty in post #107 of this thread.
I am making a cabinet to put into my worbench which is 54-5/16" long x 18-1/2" deep x 16-1/8" high. I described the box, which contains nine identical drawers, in great detail, including a list of materials and all sizes. My question to him was: how would you go about coming up with a bid to make this. How many hours do you estimate it will take you to do each part of construction? I believe that insight into this will be of great use to people thinking of getting into the business. It has taken me so long to build the unit that you would laugh if I told you, but then again, I am merely a hobbyist. I think it would be highly instructive to have a better idea of how long a real pro would take to make this very simple box of drawers. I believe the answer, which will be different for different pros, will be HIGHLY INSTRUCTIVE to people like the OP of this thread. Any chance that you could give a quick insight into how you you would bid this "job" that I described in #107? I have asked the same question to Chris, who is a new pro. I AM NOT trying to see who would do it the cheapest!!!!!. I have already built the thing and am not looking for bids. I am trying to learn more about what it takes to be a REAL PRO, and there are differences among pros. Learning more about that would be instructive for wannabees. THis thread could turn out to be a CLASSIC if we really get into the essence of what it really takes to be a pro.Thanks,
MelPS no hard feelings if you don't want to do this. I would fully understand. I apologize if I put you on the spot by asking. To me, this is a learning opportunity. Nothing more.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't know how much use my answer will be, but yes, I'll give it. I don't regard it as a secret.What I used was a simplified version of the Means system, and it worked well for me.There are three main classes to look at in any project; a box, a house, a tilt up warehouse, they're all projects, and have a start date, an end date, and milestones in between.The three classes are labor, material, and overhead.Material is the easiest, it was straight arithmetic. I'd add it up, and add 10%. Once I found a salesman I trusted, (mine was out at Plywood Supply here) I'd send a copy of the prints to him as early as I could, and he'd send me back a number that was pretty reliable. You could protect that price by buying sufficient lumber futures at that price; if you got the job, you were covered, if you didn't get the job, you might make some money on the future, or in the worst case, you wrote it off as cheap insurance.I kept a personal job log, and demanded that my foremen and journeymen kept one as well. I have a long rack of them at home.I lived and died by manhours. They became my religion.Construction is broken into 16 divisions by the Construction Specification Institute, the CSI divisions specify everything from original submittals to planting the trees and landscaping. Most of my work ended up being division 3, concrete.The divisions are broken into sections and sub sections, and you record what your crews do using those divisions. Eventually, you have a fairly accurate average of how your crews perform, and you can do things like multiply by factors: if it's raining, if it's on the second or third floor, and so on.All of this was designed to generate one thing, The Great Question: how long is it going to take?No one ever answers that question exactly right, but the closer you come, the more money you make.So the material is arithmetic, the manhours come from the database, and then you plan it out on a Gantt chart, or a PERT chart. You study how long from a larger view: where are the holidays, where does the project fall relative to pay periods, and at what points must money change hands?What is the weather like at the jobsite at that time of year, and what does the almanac say I can expect on pour day?With the schedule laid out, you can look and see if you will need any additional support staff, and when you'll need them. If the overhead (the third category) is going to change, this is the way to spot it, by looking at the overhead flow on a completed Gantt chart.Then you add in those most important milestones: you determine when you will need to receive large chunks of money to be able to write large checks for payroll, material, subs, and that infernal overhead, and you add the payment dates into the Gantt chart and the contract.I've always found that going through the steps, that formal project management protocols would set the project in my mind, that writing out the Gantt chart forces one to wrap his mind around the web of dependencies, and laying out the manhours required task by task set it in my mind until I could walk out and watch the crew, and literally SEE who was getting the number of square feet done I needed and who wasn't.In construction, if you don't have years of your own data, there are published sources for manhour rates from many sources. R.S. Means is the big dog, but there are others.I confess that I don't know if such sources exists for cabinet making or other wood working.I don't know if that's what you were looking for, but there you go.If you'd like more detail, perhaps a more specific question would get you what you are really looking for. I'll be happy to try to answer.I'd have to give some thought to your box; at first glance my old system would probably work, but at the moment it's full of the wrong information, and the CSI divisions are clearly inappropriate.Does anyone know if there is a woodworking equivalent to the CSI divisions?
Mel
Richard Jones wrote an article on costing furniture for FWW a few years back. A search will bring it up.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thank you for the info that Richard has an article in FWW on costing furniture. I spent quite a while searching for it. I tried his name alone, and that didn't give it to me. I tried "costing", "pricing", and a host of other words. No luck. Oh well, No excuses from me. I will contact Richard and ask him where the article is. Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
on costing furniture
Mel, it may have been in Woodworking mag. Richard did a few articles there.I am sure that he will link you to it. I recall an article, but a bit vague where.
Regards from Perh
Derek
Derek,
It's here:
2006, December, Estimating for Furnituremakers. Is the Price Right? Woodwork, Issue 102.
I don't know if Woodwork magazine makes it available on-line.
Lataxe
The attached PDF I think was the final draft of Estimating for Woodworkers: Is the Price Right? prior to publication in Woodwork. There may be a typo or two in this version, but I can't recall for sure.
The editor of Woodwork John Lavine was, by a long way, the best woodworking magazine editor I have had dealings with: he always, for instance, sent me a final draft copy of his version of the articles I created for me to check over. This gave us both the very best chance to eliminate as many typos and factual misrepresentations as possible from the published version.
File size is a bit under 2MB, so for those of you on antideluvian steam powered or waterwheel driven internet connections, your download time will be quite slow. Sorry about that; well, not really, because you should try to get up with the modern age instead of lingering around with the ancients and their quills, parchment and dragon's blood ink, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Did you really go through that entire exercise when selling a one-off custom piece of standalone furniture? What do you do when/if the design time takes twice as long as the actual construction?
"What do you do when/if the design time takes twice as long as the actual construction?"
Ha, ha. You're just trying to jerk my chain there aren't you Charles? That situation has never arisen. I don't have time to diddle about aimlessly agonising over designs and nuances. Get it designed, price it, make it. Dead simple. I'm a very pragmatic designer that likes to get to the point of the exercise rather than faff about needlessly. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
"Ha, ha. You're just trying to jerk my chain there aren't you Charles?"Not at all. I was just trying to understand the applicability of your approach in a scenario where a custom design had been requested, and in very small shops generally.
Edited 9/28/2009 5:13 pm ET by CStanford
Well okay Charles, I guess you were serious. If the design work is relatively complex in a commission situation I charge for it. I have a flat fee that I collect at the first free consultation. I find that weeds out the tyre kickers and time wasters quickly.
With the design in place and the working drawings, which more and more frequently I produce using AutoCAD, I get on with the pricing of the job. I've been using and gradually modifying this method of estimating for close on thirty years now. I can work out material requirements and the hours required to undertake all the tasks to complete the work pretty swiftly, and I find it remarkably accurate for the way I work.
I find that after I've put together the estimate I just need to squint a bit at the figures and see if the 'fudge factor ' needs invoking. I ask myself if, "Based on my experience of doing similar work over the years does this price feel about right?" I answer that question and leave the estimate alone or 'fudge factor' it up or down a bit.
The applicability from my point of view is that I don't find I've seriously underestimated a job when I get about half way through the construction, and nor have I seriously overestimated my time. My estimating method provides me with a very shrewd idea how much the materials will cost, how long a job will actually take and how much I should charge to make a profit. If I decide I really, really want a job badly enough I can choose, if I'm daft enough, to do it for a significantly discounted price. I've never been hungry enough to set out to deliberately lose money, so I don't offer significant discounts. I don't see the point in working on a job that I know should be charged at, let's say, £5000, and only charging £3000. It would be easier, and probably less painful, to take some wedge out of my bank account and burn it. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
It's interesting I'll admit - you've essentially been able to establish cost accounting standards for one-off production of a custom design, an exercise that gives cost accountants fits to this day.
There is probably some tie-in with Lataxe's thread on David Pye's book but I'm not quite sure what it is.
Edited 9/29/2009 6:54 am ET by CStanford
"... you've essentially been able to establish cost accounting standards for one-off production of a custom design, an exercise that gives cost accountants fits to this day"
Charles, is that a good thing or a bad thing that you say I seem to have managed to achieve?
I might be wrong, but I think you may have an accountancy background and if that's the case you could comment usefully and knowledgeably. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Most such exercises collapse when trying to establish time standards for the relevant processes. I think you essentially acknowledge this reality with your 'fudge' factor.
Edited 9/29/2009 8:54 am ET by CStanford
Charles,
Rather than refer to it as a "fudge factor", I think it is more accurately described as an acceptance of the inherent uncertainty in the phenomenon. There is a difference between accuracy and precision. One should not strive to achieve levels of precision that do not exist. I think that Richard did a fine job, as far as he went. Dusty covered overhead in more detail, but for a different type of work. I believe it wouldn't be hard to adapt for the other type of work. How do you do this in your work?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The problem with costing studio furniture, making pricing decisions, is not knowing how many commissions you'll have in any given year. It is impossible to calculate or estimate one's idle capacity variance, how to apply overhead to an uncertain number of commissions in a year, etc. You're right. I think custom furnituremaking is art. I don't think cost accounting ports well to pricing individual works of decorative art produced on a commission basis.
Edited 9/29/2009 2:14 pm ET by CStanford
Charles,
You, and maybe one other on Knots, are the only two people that I have never known to be wrong about anything with regard to fine woodworking. I am sure the ideas you just expressed about the art of the woodwork as well as the art of pricing, are spot on.
But just because they are an art, that doesn't mean that one cant give a bit of insight as to how you do it. I am sure that every artist does it differently, but if they are to live, they have to do it well.
It sounds to me like you are talking about a fudge factor, and I believe that is a central idea in pricing studio furniture. Also, you have to know your client, and have some idea of what he will stand for. Also, you surely like to get your client to remain a client.
I hope there are a few bits of light that you can shed on the art of pricing.
THere may be something else, which I have gleaned from the meager writings of Ray Pine. Every once in a while, he takes on projects that are not the ones he would pick. For example, he has shown photos of some great Art Nouveau pieces he made for a client. A.N is not Ray's native style, but he did it anyway, presumably because at the time, he was not flooded with requests for the work he prefers to do. Also, one can take in restoration work, and other "fillers", when the need arises.
But even getting restoration jobs means that the museums have to know you and respect you. That means some schmoozing with such folks. Creating a network of contacts. All of this goes into becoming a successful studio furniture maker. I just haven't seen much written down about it. I am piecing it together from fragments from folks I know, and what I read, etc.
It is an intriguing bit of research.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Most custom furniture makers I've talked to about this keep time by the calendar instead of how long it takes to dovetail one drawer. If a client walks in the door on the 2nd of the month, approves the design or otherwise pulls the trigger on the 7th (say, on Friday), materials are in-house by the 10th (that weren't already in inventory), piece delivered by the 13th of the next month.... that's what I'm talking about. If the furnituremaker is the sole breadwinner then I guess in that scenario you'd better make about a month and a half's worth of living expenses, and then some, over the cost of the raw materials and supplies. You also had better have somebody walk in the shop on the 14th, the day after delivery, and start the process all over again, or a spec. piece can be started (whole 'nother can of worms).This seems to be the reality for most. Some have a backlog. Most do not. Most of these businesses fail or are subsidized by a working spouse, or by other work the craftsperson does.Knowing that it takes exactly 18 minutes to dovetail one corner is interesting esoterica, at best.
Edited 9/30/2009 1:50 pm ET by CStanford
C.S.,
Pretty well understood by you anyway. You got it correct about the needing a job to come in for the next billing period or month .
A philosophy or way of thinking many of us especially us curmudgeons have shared over time runs something like this : " hold your price , do not get into a bidding war , let the other guy have it , keep your pride , I won't work for peanuts , "
Well ,,, for the last 27 years with very little exception I have had a 2- 6 month back log of work , that is no longer the case . This is about survival .
Today if all goes well I will take a deposit on a job I did not want 5 years ago when all was good , now it is the best iron in the fire I have , and it will pay our bills for a month . You can't eat pride , I am learning that sometimes I need to swallow it though .
The current custom cabinet work prices across the nation according to reports from shops has rolled back as much as 40 % , yup that is a lot of profit going out the door. The large shops are trying to keep the crew on and the doors open the smaller shops like me are trying to stay alive and not loose our homes and health insurance and such.
You can call it low bidders but you can't blame them for wanting to survive
regards dusty
All ,
Just a simple but accurate method to calculate what to value each hour .
For example lets take $25,000 as the bottom line of the overhead worksheet .If you based things on a 40 hour week for say 50 weeks of the year.
That would be 2,000 hours , now take 10-20% of that say 200 hours of productive shop work , now the yearly total would be 1800 hours approx.
$25k divided X 1,800 hours = approx $13.88 per hour hard cost .
So if you feel your time is worth say $35 an hour , add the $13.88 to make a total of $48.88 an hour.
One thing missing is profit so far , if you charges $50 there would be profit .
Don't confuse the $35 an hour with profit.
regards dusty
If you need to make $60K per year to make the exercise worthwhile and a realistic assessment of one's capabilities is somewhere on the order of eight to twelve significant commissions a year then the math becomes rather simple, which is what I like.The unknown, of course, for which no amount of mathematics and cost accounting gyrations can account for is how many commissions will walk through the door in any given year, hence the often hand-to-mouth existence a lot of artists lead.
Edited 9/29/2009 2:12 pm ET by CStanford
How many jobs will it take per year is a different part of the equation , but you will know how much it costs you to earn what you need.
With cabinet work 3 good jobs can be a years income for me.
Furniture is much harder to bid accurately imo , and depending on the works , many more jobs or commissions may be needed .
Hey we can all work towards that $52,000 rocking chair, wouldn't take many of those to satisfy my income needs .Even one a month we could get by.
regards dusty
Yep, I'm confining my comments to the small custom furnituremaker not custom cabinet shop.Maloof certainly had every single rocker he cared to build sold. Must be nice.
Edited 9/29/2009 2:11 pm ET by CStanford
Charles, I find it interesting that you say "most such exercises collapse" because if there isn't some system in place how does anybody calculate how long a job will take, or how much you have to spend on materials?
What I do know is the system I use, and was described in the article works very accurately for me. I admit there's still some intuitive pricing goes on, hence the 'fudge factor' I described. The fudge factor part of estimating I use provides only for a small variation of about 3%- 10% either side of the numbers generated through the estimating method. For instance the method might calculate 100 hours for constructing an item. Invoking the fudge factor could vary the time allowance by a few hours either side of the 100 calculated, eg, 92 hours or 108 hours, or 96 or 104. The truth is that I don't invoke the fudge factor very often, only when experience tells me that almost certainly the calculated charge should be adjusted a bit.
I have little understanding of your meaning in relation to cost accountancy methodolgies used for estimating times and material costs to accomplish a job, something you mentioned in an earlier post. I'm not an accountant and don't have an accountant's perspective on the task.
In the end I suppose I'm not interested in cost accountany when I have to price a job; all I am really interested in is knowing how many hours to expect to bill for, and what the materials will cost. With that information to hand it's just a matter of adding a mark up to the materials and allocating an hourly rate to the expected billable hours. In truth I almost always add the same mark up to my material costs and generally charge the same rate per hour from one job to the next. I do of course reserve the right to vary any of my charges for a variety of reasons.
As long as I am able to tie down the numbers pretty accurately using my methods I'll continue with them because some of the alternative pricing methodogies I've come across I've found are generally almost useless, eg the material cost times an arbitrary multiplier method or the WAG (wild a*sed guess) method, ha, ha. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 9/29/2009 6:16 pm by SgianDubh
"I do of course reserve the right to vary any of my charges for a variety of reasons."
That plus the fudge factor you mentioned in your earlier post answers the questions you just asked.
> to establish cost accounting standards for one-off production of a custom design, an exercise that gives cost accountants fits to this day.
There is probably some tie-in with Lataxe's thread on David Pye's book but I'm not quite sure what it is. <>mathematics and cost accounting gyrations . . . how many commissions will walk through the door in any given year,<I believe I can help identify this elusive thing of which you yearn it is called
BistromathicsBistromathics itself is simply a revolutionary new way of understanding the behaviour of numbers.On a waiter's bill pad, numbers dance. Reality and unreality collide on such a fundamental level that each becomes the other and anything is possible."“
. . . Just as Albert Einstein's general relativity theory observed that space was not an absolute but depended on the observer's movement in time, and that time was not an absolute, but depended on the observer's movement in space, so it is now realized that numbers are not absolute, but depend on the observer's movement in restaurants.
”
Further explanation of the theory behind bistromathics:
“
The first nonabsolute number is the number of people for whom the table is reserved. This will vary during the course of the first three telephone calls to the restaurant, and then bear no apparent relation to the number of people who actually turn up, or the number of people who subsequently join them after the show/match/party/gig, or to the number of people who leave when they see who else has shown up.
The second nonabsolute number is the given time of arrival, which is now known to be one of those most bizarre mathematical concepts, a recipriversexcluson, a number whose existence can only be defined as being anything other than itself. In other words, the given time of arrival is the one moment of time at which it is impossible that any member of the party will arrive. Recipriversexclusons now play a vital part in many branches of mathematics, including statistics and accountancy, and also form the basic equations used to engineer the Somebody Else's Problem field.The third and most mysterious piece of nonabsoluteness of all lies in the relationship between the number of items on the bill, the cost of each item, the number of people at the table and what they are each prepared to pay for. (The number of people who have actually brought any money is only a sub-phenomenon in this field.)
”
The bridge instruments of the Starship Bistromath are ensconced in fake wine bottles.
The central computational area is a fake Italian restaurant table with seating for twelve encased in a glass cage. The table is decked with a faded red and white check tablecloth with mathematically positioned cigarette burns. A group of robot customers sit round the table, attended by robot waiters.The mathematics play themselves out in the complex interplay between continuously circulating keys, menus, watches, cheque books, credit cards, bill pads and scribblings on paper napkins.Slartibartfast explains that "On a waiter's bill pad, numbers dance. Reality and unreality collide on such a fundamental level that each becomes the other and anything is possible."Should the ship's captain sit at the table, the mathematical functions speed up; the customers become more vociferous and wave at each other. Eventually, the equation balances, and the customers become polite and civil once more. The more heated the argument, the more complex the equation, and the farther the ship may travel.
Effectively, the ship takes advantage of the strange rules that only restaurants operate under by turning itself into a controlled, artificial restaurant. This allows a ship equipped with a bistromathic drive to accomplish feats quite outside the normal capabilities of spacecraft, such as traveling two thirds across the galactic disk in a matter of seconds. The drive is notably more controllable than the Infinite Improbability Drive. It is also said to "make the Heart of Gold seem like an electric pram."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_in_The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_GalaxySee also Douglas Adams Life, the Universe and Everything,To be clear
Ha Ha Ha: )To be serious I think we are talking about experience combined with intuition something that can't be had from an accounting school.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 10/4/2009 4:36 am by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 10/4/2009 5:00 am by roc
Richard,
I just downloaded and scanned your article. Wow. Very incisive. You gave estimates to be used for a number of common and not so common tasks to be done. The one thing I missed was the topic of costing "overhead" - that is the necessary part of keeping a business going, your shop, secretary, electricity, phone, insurance, putting away some for vacations, retirement, etc etc etc. Any thoughts on adding something on this?The OPs question had to do with "making a living" at woodwork. To make a living, one has to take care of overhead and profit. Do you add in separately for overhead and profit? How are these things best handled?Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Actually, Mel, the article did touch on overhead, but I admit it wasn't discussed in detail; the reason being that I can't provide details for how every business should undertake the task, nor exactly what constitutes an overhead cost to any particular business.
Overhead is the costs your business has to pay out each hour, week, month or year for just being there whether or not you turn a penny in trade. These overheads vary a great deal from business to business, eg, rent or mortgage, utilities, local taxes, insurance, admin, maintenance, repairs, etc. Each business needs to work out what these costs are for themselves and then allow for it when they establish charges for sales, whatever form their sales take, eg, retail, service industry, manufacturing, etc. There's not much point in guessing what overhead a business has to service, and overhead is calculable through analysis of your bills and the like.
The way I work out profit is to charge enough in the hourly rate to cover overhead, the wages I want, plus a charge for profit to cover holidays, sickness, savings, retirement, etc. There are certainly other methods, and probably some of those are better methods, but this is way I do it. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 9/28/2009 6:25 pm by SgianDubh
Hello All,
I've lurked around here for a long time and I have to say that this is one of the best threads ever!!
Thanks! I've entertained making a living with woodworking and this is a goldmine of information. Bob Bonham -- No longer lurking :-)
Go for it!! Create an account on http://www.Etsy.com and do it part time. Just think, all your shop equipment from here on out will be tax deductible.
If you fail, you fail. As my wife says, "a hundred years from now we'll all be dead anyway so what does it matter?"
http://www.mvflaim.com
You're wife is absolutely correct.
I have looked around Etsy and have it in mind as a jumping off point. I need to now get my act together and this thread is sure helping.
I read a book a few years ago which was on The New York Times #1 best sellers list called The Millionaire Next Door. Even though it was written in the '90's and is somewhat outdated, it still has valuable information in it that is worth getting. Near the back of the book they talk about being an entrepreneur. A professor was talking to a group of sixty MBA students who were executives of public companies and asked this question.
What is risk?
One student replied: being an entrepreneur!
His fellow students agreed. Then the professor answered his own question with a quote from an entrepreneur:
What is risk? Having one source of income. Employees are at risk... They have one source of income. What about the entrepreneur who sells janitorial services to your employers? He has hundreds and hundreds of customers...hundreds and hundreds of sources of incomes.
This excerpt resinates the truth with me far greater than anything else in the book. For years I had only one source of income as an employee. Now I have NO source of income (other than measly unemployment) since I lost my job in April. I'm trying to find a job with 11% unemployment rate in Ohio and scrambling for any source of income I can. Had I been more proactive and started a part time business while I was still working, I would have been far less financially damaged when I lost my job. It's a life's lesson that I will never forget.
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 9/29/2009 9:56 am ET by mvflaim
I'm so sorry you lost your job. That is some of the reason I'm looking around. I'm a software engineer (greybeard as they are sometimes known) and in the last 15 years I have worried about my job at least 10 times. Fortunately for me it never happened. I don't know why, higher performing and lower performing people both went every time. I thank God for myself and pray for them.So I've been poking around with the idea of working for myself. Software is an option but it lost its luster.I hope all goes well for you.Thanks for the book idea. I'll have a look at it.Bob
Bob,
Glad you are not lurking anymore. PLEASE join in and ask questions that are on your mind. The professionals are now joining in and posting some REAL info on how to price a piece of woodworking, and it is really getting good. Some specific questions from you would be great. Welcome! Glad you are here. Now have some fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks.I'm already having fun and I'm sure I'll ask some questions along the way. You know one of my biggest concerns was getting all of the costs involved in a price with a profit. I'm still trying to gauge how much of a paycheck I need and how much profit for the company.Not being a natural Marketer I am watching ads and pitches closely as well as trying to define how I want to represent my "stuff".Mostly though I am still working on woodworking skills. I feel I have a little way to go before I can dive right in.Etsy was suggested to me earlier and I probably will start there.Thanks to all this is encouraging yet still grounded in reality thread.Bob
This is a very useful and well written article on one half of the problem of determining what price to charge for a piece of work. It is the easy part. My only quibble with it concerns overhead, which is almost always treated incorrectly, even by Fortune 500 companies. In any event, what all these calculations tell you is the lowest price at which you would take the job. It can be done by the bean counters in the "accounting department." But the accounting office isn't where prices are determined.
But the second half is the difficult half. It's the part that tries to estimate what the highest price the customer will pay. That of course is the role of the "marketing department." That's where you need to know your customer, and also know what alternatives are available to him/her. It's what salesmen and marketers do, and it's difficulty is why salesmen make much more than accountants.
So the problem is finding customers where the highest price they will pay is greater than the lowest price you will accept.
I've seen that phenomenon before, Steve. (Overhead being treated incorrectly.)Usually, the place I've seen it is by people who are trying to make the profit smaller.This is a huge over-generalization, but it goes like this: ownership doesn't matter. What matters is control.That attitude is straight out of the "me-first eighties", and was responsible for more lopsided balance sheets than I can imagine.The general principle was to get income out of a Subchapter S corporation into a form an officer could use without it being taxed; the company would own and maintain the asset, but it would be under the officer's control.My opinion is that it distorts the final score, and without a cold blooded, dead-honest scoresheet, you can't tell if you're winning or losing, and you can't tell if your efforts are working or not.You have to have a cold blooded analysis of where you are before you can figure out how to get where you want to go.
That's a fair comment Steve. My article didn't make any attempt to discuss marketing and establishing a high or low sales price for a particular item, but that wasn't its purpose. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Steve,You mentioned that Richard didn't cover overhead thoroughly. Take a look at the attachment that Dusty just posted. It is a worksheet on calculating overhead. Very nice.Also, in my response to Dusty, I described a book by Jim Tolpin on "How ti become a professional cabinetmaker" which claims to have "all the forms you need". I can't wait to find out if it does.You made two GREAT POINTS in your message:The difficult part is figuring out how high a client will go! I had gotten that lesson from David Savage, in spades. He said that if a client doesn't cringe when he tells him the cost, then he hasn't charged enough.
The second issue is finding customers where the highest price they will pay is greater than the lowest price you will accept. WOW. You hit the nail on the head with that one. I hope this thread goes on long enough to draw out more good insights like those that are coming out now. I believe it could be the basis of a new book, or at least another article on the subject. If nothing else, when the next hundred or so newbies ask about how to make money in woodworking, we have a thread to refer them to. Unfortunately there is a problem with this. I believe such newbies (the OP included) wouldn't understand what is being said because they are only concerned about learning joinery.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm afraid my perspective on overhead isn't going to be so conventional. Overhead expenses are fixed and would go on whether you are producing a lot or a little. Consequently, they are important to understand in deciding whether you should go work in a factory instead of maintaining your shop.
They should be ignored in day to day pricing decisions. Then you want to take on jobs that will pay your project specific (variable) costs. (Subject to the very vexing problem of taking on a project that just covers the specific costs but precludes you from taking another more lucrative project, down the road)
Note though, I'm not saying you "set" prices based only on the project specific costs--or for that matter on costs at all. As I alluded to in my previous post, the price should be the highest price that the customer(s) will pay, while still covering your (variable) cost of producing the item. You prefer to sell $3,000 end tables, even if the cost of producing them is $800. If you sell enough of them, over time, then the difference between selling prices (revenue) and costs, both the project specific ones (variable) and the overhead costs (fixed) will be covered, a profit earned, and you should stay in business.
Steve,
Great post on your "unconventional" ideas on overhead. Your description of the effect of overhead in two different situations is illuminating. However, from what I read by most struggling woodworkers, they don't think they have the option of choosing between different tasks, and are overwhelmed with issues in the few jobs they are getting. I know a few, highly successful, woodworkers, who are quite selective about the jobs they take on. This is the essence of where one wants to go in woodworking. The question is how to get there. You hit the nail on the head in your earlier comments on finding clients who are willing to pay well for what they get. FINDING SUCH CLIENTS and then GROOMING SUCH CLIENTS INTO LONG TERM CLIENTS is the essence of becoming a successful woodworker. The woodworking and business skills are necessary but not sufficient. The trick lies in being able to uncover these sufficiently wealthy folks who want the type of furniture you make, and are willing to pay well for it. We are coming up with a great list of important aspects of "How to make a living in woodwork". Finally, this thread is taking off. I hope we hear from Ray Pine and Rob Millard now that we are down' to brass tacks.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I'm just getting around to reading all of this post and your comment on the customer not cringing when the cost is given reminds me of an old story.
The small town optometrist had sent his son to school to follow in his footsteps. Upon graduating he returned home to start helping dad in the family business. The first customer that the son handled on his own was an elderly lady that had been a patient of the father for years. The father overheard the son as he was delivering her new glasses to her say " The new glasses will be $40." The lady paid and left.
The father took the son aside and told him that he had not charged the lady properly for the glasses and had not handled the transaction as he would have. He said "You should tell her the glasses were $40, and if she has not looked up, the exam was $20. If she has still not looked up, you say the case is $10. If you keep adding charges for the services we have provided until her expression says 'that's enough" you have charged her what she believes is sufficient for the job. By stopping at $40, the price on the original bill, you have cost yourself $30."
While this is over simplification of the proper way to handle a customer, it is an indication of how we sometimes price our work too cheaply because we believe we have to give the customer the best price possible. By doing this we cheapen our work and cheat ourselves from deserved profit.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Bruce,
"While this is over simplification of the proper way to handle a customer, it is an indication of how we sometimes price our work too cheaply because we believe we have to give the customer the best price possible. By doing this we cheapen our work and cheat ourselves from deserved profit."
Well said. You hit the nail on the head.
"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
"A fine woodworker's got to overcome his reticence, and charge more." Dirty Mel CalahanMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Richard I do respect you rwords. but one thing got under my craw about the low ball dial up thing.
Depends were you live.
.Big Time!! I live about 40 km from the provincial capital of SK. We are deemed by the mother corp to be a recreational area AKA no high speed go pound sand. So we went with a satalite dish system. much better $ 400 hardware and $ 70 a month. Now finally a smaller company has put up towers and offering twice the speed at half the price. Will be on that soon.Every year for the last 5 years both the provincal gov and feds say "we will have high speed in every house buy this time next year" well now my DW and I roll our eyes!!We had a business phone line ran to our house cost about $ 400 5 years ago, BUT they made us sign a contract if we wanted a second business line it would be a bit shy of $ 10,000. And this is from the public utility??WTF so having beers with the line man dude. He says due to the North American Free Trade Act. and some US FCC agreement they had to charge what it would cost in downtown New York, LA.. So how the heck do you cost that in as overhead and have the cash to fork out?AAAnd have two high school teenage daughters?
Rant over, new one.Today I was asked to take a 20 % pay cut on the job I am working on as due to all the angles, catherdral ceilings. Funckey framing. no one did the home work and priced it with 90 degree angles not a series of 22.5. Do I walk or suck it up??Can't walk till I get some work out to the public. Pay a gallery 40% and hope a sale is made maybe a commision?? but them ugly bills keep on coming. Holidays ?? used to have those. So why can a journeyman electrician and fumbling helper charge out at 126 an hour and you have to almost beg for 25.
It's very difficult to read what you write. I confess that I don't understand a lot of it.
"one thing got under my craw about the low ball dial up thing"
I thought most people would realise there was the hint of joke in there... I thought the repetitions of the word 'ha' would give it away. I guess you didn't see it that way for which I'm sorry: or perhaps your response was in a sarcastic or ironic form? Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
I am just settling in to catch up on this big old discussion>PDF Estimating for Furnituremakers. Is the Price Right? File size is a bit under 2MB, so for those of you on antideluvian . . . internet connections, your download time will be quite slow. . . . try to get up with the modern age<Seven seconds over WiFi here. NetFlix/Roku , that precision internet speed measuring guage that it is, says we are about medium here.Thanks !Probably will tell me all those things I was afraid of and do not want to here. Like : if I am going to do wood working the way I do wood working then I will need to charge forty gazillion dollars for X and no body is going to give ME that much.Fun to see how " the other half " lives though.Thanks again.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Richard,
Derek told me that you have published an article in FWW about the pricing of furniture. I searched and searched. Due to my low ability in doing searches :-) I have not been able to find it. Could you point me to it? Thank you.Also, my goal is to assemble info that would be valuable to a newbie who asks a question like "Can I make a living in woodworking?" I find that answers like "Krenov did it, so you can." to be of little practical value. I think it would be good to collect info on this question that would give a newbie some real info, would be good. For example, if you want to get into custom cabinetry (built ins) you need to be able to design, build and install such cabinetry at a price comparable to local professionals. Here are some national numbers on lineal foot estimates which may be of some use to you, and here is where you can find more info on that.You do work which is much more difficult to price than custom cabinets for the kitchen. So pricing your work is more difficult, (I think). I could give a newbie a list of websites of folks who make studio furniture which include prices. That would help. Nothing will solve the issue. I am just looking for ways to point people to useful information.Any advice you could provide, especially on stuff which has already been written would be greatly appreciated.Thank you,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Most of the complaints about my work comes from my wife so I'm used to criticism. : )
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 9/28/2009 7:22 am ET by mvflaim
Mike,I like criticism. I don't particularly like complaints, though if there are any, I do want to hear them. I'd take any criticism over simply "good job" any day of the week.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
In post 107 of this thread, I gave Dusty a description of a storage unit for a workbench. It is 54-5/16" long x 18-1/2" deep x 16-1/8" high, and it contains nine drawers. I described the piece in detail, and asked Dusty how he would go about developing a price for making the piece. I am just about finished making the piece myself, and it took me a LONG time to do it. A pro would go broke at my pace. But it made me wonder. How fast should a pro be able to make one of these, and what would the price come in at. I have NO plans to turn pro!!!! None. But I really want to delve into the real difference between pros and hobbyists. A pro has to be efficient. But I don't have much of a clue as to how fast he must be to be efficient. I believe Dusty's response is going to be enlightening. It would be even more enlightening if other pros, like yourself also described how they would develop a price for the piece. Any chance you would do that? I am really not interested in the "price" you would charge, but in how you would arrive at your "price". I know the cost of the materials, and I provided a materials list. I am only interested in how you figure how much time it will take for the various parts of designing and constructing the piece. I told Dusty that I would expect a great deal of variability in what different pros would come up with for a "number of hours". Learning more about this would be very instructive for those who want to get into this business. I believe this is one of the most valuable threads ever in Knots on the topic of "how to make money in woodworking". Hope you give it a try.
Thanks
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel, my reference to making Bible boxes was meant as a starting point for Kyle to see if he really does want to get into woodworking. As you know, even making a box can be as simple or as intricate as one chooses, without really getting into the big bucks side of tool purchases. I have been a woodworking hobbiest for about 4 years now, so I am still making baby steps, but steps in the right direction. I also hope Kyle will soon find his direction. Just thought I needed to clarify that statement.
I do enjoy the threads here, a lot of info for a "newbie" like me. :-)
Newbie,
Have fun.
I know you meant well. We all have different ways of giving advice. The problem for the person who asks for advice is which of the different pieces is better than the others. This is often easy for the old-bie, but not for the newbie.Making things for friends and family and others, where you don't charge, or charge little, is fun, But the OP was looking to make a living at this. That is no simple matter. It took a long time for this thread to get down to business. The last third of the thread has had lots of info that the OP should be reading.Some of the people who have been posting answers here are real professionals. They are not in the business of making small cheap items, such as a bible box. Richard and Charles make expensive, one of a kind pieces of furniture. Dusty makes high quality built ins for homes. We have people here who are turners, and others who are carvers. While there are similarities in pricing work, and in how to make money in all of these different applications of woodworking, there are vast differences. I am not sure that the OP has any clue about the differences. If so, he hasn't let us know. In any case, this thread isn't about the OP any more. It is far more general. Have fun. I hope you are learning something. I am.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It seems to me that when it comes to pricing, wood workers seem to be obsessed with their own costs. This seems to me to be topsy turvy. Your costs have absolutely NOTHING to do with what a customer might pay for a given piece.Pick up any text book on pricing and you will see that fixed and sunk costs are irrelevant to when it comes to pricing.I have done a little work for hire and I always start with asking myself what is it worth. In other words, what value does the customer ascribe to this job. Is it worth $100 or $500? This is a pretty inexact science, but if you take into account the totality of the situation you can, at least come up with a reasonable approximation.Next, I go on line (thank god for the internet) and see what the market might charge for a similar item.I take my estimate of customer value and adjust it up or down based on what I find others are charging, factoring in other intangibles. This allows me to set a target price, i.e., how much I want to charge.With the target price established, I calculate the incremental avoidable costs of the job. These include materials, tooling and any other cash expenses. This establishes the price floor. Any price above the floor will be profitable - NOT NECESSARILY DESIRABLE.This tells me how much negotiating room there is. Thus far, I have never had to deviate from my target price. Because I'm focused on selling the value and I have a sense of what alternatives are available.Finally, every business has customers that it should not serve - figuring out who they are and how to spot them is the most valuable element of the marketing discipline.Hastings
Your costs have absolutely NOTHING to do with what a customer might pay for a given piece.
True... But in a business you can not price an item below the cost of manufacturing them. If a client isn't willing to pay the minumum price (your costs) then why would you do the work?
Pick up any text book on pricing and you will see that fixed and sunk costs are irrelevant to when it comes to pricing.
Hmmm... The first one I looked at refered to 'Cost plus pricing'.
Price = (cost of production + Misc Costs) + Profit
Buster:"But in a business you can not price an item below the cost of manufacturing them. If a client isn't willing to pay the minumum price (your costs) then why would you do the work?"The problem comes in establishing the "cost". The so-called fully absorbed cost is really just an opinion. What we can establish is the INCREMENTAL AVOIDABLE COST of the next piece. And, any price over that price floor is PROFITABLE.Presumably, the customer can obtain the piece below your manufacturing cost, in which case, you had better figure out how to lower cost or change your target audience and product.Cost-based pricing has pretty much been debunked. It leads to under pricing in strong markets and over pricing in weak ones. Furthermore, it requires a circular logic since cost depends on volume and price also affects volume. I wish people would stop talking about cost-based pricing.Hastings
Hastings, where did you get the term "incremental avoidable cost"?I've never heard that term before.
That's also what you might encounter in a basic economics class as "short term marginal cost". Avoidable simply means costs that you would not pay if you didn't do the job. But since "not doing" or avoiding that job wouldn't reduce the rent, it's not part of the "avoidable" or marginal cost. Incremental is the cost for making one more unit. I think you are more likely to find the term in managment texts than economics texts, but the meaning is identical, subject to nuance.
Hastings is absolutely correct about the principle of pricing. The problem comes that it is so very challenging to know what others are charging for the same thing--both quality, and customization, that woodworkers are quite uncertain about what price they might obtain, so instead of maximizing profits, they embark on "satisficing" by using cost based systems to at least come closer to ensuring that some profit is earned. This essentially what I meant in my earlier post about costing being the easier half of setting a price.
It's basically the description of accounting given by a University of Chicago accounting professor who said (approximately) "accounting measures with precision things that are irrelevant." (I say this looking over my shoulder so my spouse who is a CPA won't see it.) My wife refused to let me take a MBA level course in cost accounting, because she was already tired of me pointing out the inanity of looking at fully allocated costs for management decision making.
Edited 9/30/2009 8:51 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Steve:Well put. Good addition to the discussion.Hastings
I've never heard either term, not that that means anything.It does bring up an interesting point, though, that I've never fully resolved: costs that don't apply well to any single category.For example, an unsuccessful sales call, a successful sales call, an "empty" trip to the lumber yard, and a "full" trip to the lumber yard.Take the unsuccessful sales call: you take the call, you set the appointment, you go to the appointment, you spend three hours looking over the job and talking to the people. Things go well, you go back to the office, and do a first tier (something I learned never to do) ballpark estimate, square foot if you're in construction, or by the biggest, roughest assemblies estimate. You set up a boilerplate design contract, giving you the go-ahead to have the job designed, on the clock, for good money. And they say no.Overhead? Certainly. Marketing? Sort of... Advertising? Sort of... if you have a category for "advertising that didn't work".Now take the second sales call. You go back, and they pull the trigger, and they sign and give you a down payment. On the clock. Before you make reservations for dinner, how far back does the job extend, retroactively? Does taking the initial call now apply as a job cost? (Which is, I believe, the term we used to express what you guys are talking about.)Point is, the initial screwing around is all there whether you take (or win) the job or not-- but at some point, all that screwing around IS part of a specific job's cost, and the larger (or more complicated) that job is, the more of that screwing around, phone work, aspirin/rolaids type work there is, and the tighter the commitment, the more work you're willing to do towards eventually driving nails. So it's not ALL job costs, and it's not ALL overhead.Now consider the lumber yard.You have your signed contract in hand. Your clock is running, whether you're billing by the hour or up against your own clock, on a firm bid. The first pitch is thrown, the alarm goes off, clean Carhartt's, time to play for real.You go to the lumberyard, with a list, looking for left handed smoke benders, electric window viewers and Canadian board stretchers.And you fail. No smoke to be had, viewers for doors, but not for windows of any kind, and the Canadian border is closed. Something about a terrorists strike in the middle of a walkout by long haul truckers. Who cares. Bottom line, can't get any in this state.So. Job costs? Overhead? If job costs, which job? The smoke installation on the water, (Smoke On The Water, get it?) the sweeping view manufacturing plant, or the homesick Canadian?Now let's say you find it all, and to make sure, (and with the memory of the trucker's walkout fresh on your mind) you buy two extra Canadian board stretchers. (None of you guys ever go to Rockler's, and come home with something you didn't intend to buy, do you? No, of course not. I thought not.)Which job?As far as management, there's an ENTIRE subject I've always wondered about, the concept of "managing" a job.What does THAT mean? Doesn't it just mean that you jump in and work your tail off?I mean, you try to avoid looking at the raw data, but you take the processed information and look at it to see what it can tell you. Suppose it tells you that the job is going sideways. So what? Are you going to walk away? Not finish it? Not deliver the furniture? Quit in the middle?No. You're going to dig in and get it done, and not look up until it's over. At least, that's what you're going to do if you work for me.So one of the things that has always puzzled me about accounting is that the processed information accounting generates is fine for finding out what just happened, but it's not much use for deciding what to do next, unless "next" refers to "next job".
Jammer,
Loved your comments on the reality of the cost of making bids. I look at this as part of "overhead". Making unsuccessful bids takes time, and time is a cost, and costs must be accounted for, even if in an indirect manner. So I put it in overhead. You are bringing a good deal of hard hitting reality to this thread. Don't stop.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think you will find it in Tom Nagle's book "Strategic Pricing". I don't know if he was the first to use it, but Steve's post describes it very clearly.I know this work well because I wrote a handbook on pricing that liberally uses the ideas expressed therein.Hastings
Thanks, Hastings. I'll take a look at it.If I can cost it out to a job, maybe I'll buy it. :)
I almost forgot to mention what I set out to mention: in construction, here in the Master Builder's, there was an interesting movement afoot to charge for estimating.I actually got paid for a few estimates, but I could never shake the feeling that when I presented the idea that it cost me more jobs that it landed me.Has anyone ever tried anything similar in woodworking-furniture-cabinet work?The idea was that even a nominal fee was non-zero income, and that the people who paid it were far more likely to buy than those who wouldn't.I DID measure sales closed, and the percentage WAS quite a bit higher, but I could also never shake the feeling that a lot of them would have bought anyway.
Hastings,You're a consultant of sorts aren't you? Obviously I'm no accountant.I see what your saying, but I'm still wondering how it relates to a small one man shop. Costs for a single project should be easy to track... assuming you don't try to factor in the usage on your table saw (etc....).I only brought cost base pricing up because you said that I wouldn't find it...
Buster:"You're a consultant of sorts aren't you?"Yes, and I am able to charge $6000 + per day. In the last 10 years I have never had to negotiate my prices. I have found that client's feel they get value for money.The problem with consulting is the travel and the end result is somewhat amorphous – how do you know if you've really done a good job?I also do a little woodworking, making stuff for our house. But, word spread and I enjoy having a tangible, self-evident result. Also, woodworking is mentally and physically very rewarding. The joy on my neighbor's face with her kitchen that I built is priceless."I'm still wondering how it relates to a small one man shop."I think the principal lesson is to first ask what the job is worth to the particular customer in these particular circumstances. For example, a neighbor has installed new a/c in his historic home and would like a return air vent made in wood. Easy job, except it has to be under the stairs and incorporates a 40 degree slope on one side. That's the tricky part!
OK, so what is it worth? Well, a metal vent can cost $200. My intuition said that he would balk at more than $500 - it just doesn't seem worth more than that. I think he would have a hard time finding someone to do it. So, I priced it at $425.Consulting is slow so I would never want to substitute consulting days for woodworking days. But if I'm free then my time has no cost. The materials cost me $20 (my lumber supplier gave me some old pine that was lying around and I bought doug fir for the frame). For a small shop, opportunity cost is critical. What else could you be doing with the time you would devote to this job and how much would you make?If I rushed, I could make it in four hours, but with finishing, it will be an interesting day's work. (I have 3-axis CNC machine so I don't have to hassle with jigs). I made a sketchup shop drawing and then created the toolpaths for the CNC (1.5 hours's, included in my day estimate). My profit is around $400. That is not to be confused with net profit or even gross profit as classically defined. But, it is free clash flow - one of the most important indicators for any business.As you can see from this real example, I focused on customer value and his best alternatives - not my costs.Hope that helps.
Hastings ,
The example you gave is for a hobby shop not a business .
You have no overhead , I think you said you are not in the business , so the comparison is void.You don't have the expenses related to overhead and legally being in business , are you licensed to work in folks homes ?
You said you made $400 from a $425 job without all the finite profits , sorry but in real businesses there is more involved .Hobby shop advice .
This thread was to help aspiring businesses not hobby shops , if the hobby shop can learn , great .
For Chris or any other individual trying to determine how much to charge for the work they do , they have to be realistic and aware of the local demand or market prices in there area.
Todays market is very different then any other we have experienced ,we are on new ground , unfortunately there are no written manuals or guides or how to books , on how to deal with little or no commerce.
You can set your price up as high as you want , but eventually the bills will be due, and the pride of saying I did not cave in and lower my price like the other guy did will not feed you .
Well the fact of the matter is the job will get done by someone , and the home owner will only get it done once , so if we miss it it's gone and the opportunity perhaps to earn a months wages with or without profit will also vanish .That is reality , sorry to say .
We can speculate on and on but remember the guy who signs the front of the check is in charge .
regards dusty
Hello Dusty:"You have no overhead, I think you said you are not in the business , so the comparison is void.You don't have the expenses related to overhead and legally being in business , are you licensed to work in folks homes ?"You are correct but again, these have no bearing on price. Whether you are a single operator like me, admittedly operating in a grey area, or someone with 50 employees, the fixed costs of the operation are not relevant to pricing decisions.My example was only there to illustrate the importance of starting with some idea of value in the customer's mind. Burdening your marginal costs with fixed costs is pointless in determining the price. ANY PRICE over INCREMENTAL AVOIDABLE COST is profitable.In my example, the customer's best alternative was a metal grill. A fully-burdened cost would probably be more than the value. Only you can determine whether it's worth doing based on how busy you are etc. If you were at full capacity and had to incur overtime (i.e., and incremental avoidable expense), then it might not be worth doing.It is important that you understand my general point and not get lost in the details of my circumstances and example; because, you will make better pricing decisions, i.e. ones that increase your income.I absolutely agree that price less incremental avoidable cost is not the same as gross profit or net profit as generally defined in a P&L statement.Regards,Hastings
Hastings ,
You have been speaking about pricing basically , and as always have great information . A while ago we had a similar thread , it's still there .
Your marketing expertise is evident and respected by me .
Pricing is important , but knowing what it costs you to produce a given item is a most important element , if you are a fabricating business !
Please do not advise someone starting out in business to price based on what they think the customer will pay without first knowing what their hard costs are.
For yourself and many other non business shops that system may be fine but for a business , not until you know your costs .
fixed costs should be a consideration when arriving at ones value per hour and in turn for pricing
If you were providing for your family would you sell your work for less then it may have cost you ? could that happen ? lately I have been under bid by as much as 40% , how could they make any money is what I wonder .Maybe they don't pay the materials bills ?
regards dusty , thanks for your contributions
Dusty:"Please do not advise someone starting out in business to price based on what they think the customer will pay without first knowing what their hard costs are."You are correct; ultimately, you have got to know what all your costs are."Pricing is important , but knowing what it costs you to produce a given item is a most important element , if you are a fabricating business"Pricing is the only element of the marketing mix that involves revenue; all the other components involve cost! Yet, typically we spend 95% of our time on the cost side. Pricing deserves more attention than it typically gets!"If you were providing for your family would you sell your work for less then it may have cost you ? could that happen ? lately I have been under bid by as much as 40% , how could they make any money is what I wonder .Maybe they don't pay the materials bills ?"Many once viable and profitable businesses know longer exist here because someone found a way to do it cheaper. If, tomorrow, I have no work, then it will pay me to work tomorrow and do anything in excess of its direct cash cost. That might be how your competitors are under cutting you. If they are filling excess capacity that is one thing, but that it is unlikely to be sustainable for any length of time, as you well know.Price tells us what something is worth, our costs tell us how much we might earn. And competitors influence both - sometimes favorably and sometimes not.We agree on more than you might think. I keep track of time and costs so I know how much "profit" I consumed with the job.Thank you for your kind words. I have enjoyed this interchange of ideas. Pricing is difficult.Regards,Hastings
ANY PRICE over INCREMENTAL AVOIDABLE COST is profitable.
I disagree with this statement.
I know, from bitter experience, that there is a price, above total job cost and below the sum of total job costs and total overhead (for that period) that not only is not profitable, but will drive you out of business.
It's hard to work in the dark, and therefore the light bill demands to be paid.
(Although, now that I think about that, it might not bother that blind hand tool guy...)
Jam:If you've been following the discussion closely, you will know that I agree that eventually a business must cover its fixed costs. However, to do that it must find a way to deliver sufficient value to its customers, such that those customers are willing to pay you enough to make a profit.However, you have to start with customer value and work backward to fixed cost. Not add up fixed cost, add a salary and then go out with a price that has absolutely nothing to do with what a reasonable customer might be wiling to pay.Regards,Hastings
Now, that I agree with.That statement you just made, however, is a very different statement than the statement "anything over job costs is profitable", which is a statement I find to have a rather casual relationship with the truth.
Amen. And when selling art or other luxury goods would leave a ton of money on the table, usually.
Although there are qualifications that can be made concerning creating precedents (signalling) and the probabilities of having to turn down a more lucrative job that wasn't known until you accepted the particular job, Hastings is completely correct with the statement that "anything over job costs is profitable". Perhaps you could state it as "anything over job costs adds to profits or reduces losses." It's not controversial. You can't maximize profits unless that's the effect of the "rules" you set for pricing and taking jobs.
Of course he has pointed out that over the longer period you must also cover the overhead--pay the rent, meet payroll, etc, but knowing that shouldn't influence your day-to-day job decisions. That is where you have to decide the whole course of the career. Unfortunately, that is all to often a decision made by outside forces--the credit cards are maxed, etc.
I think it's time to clear up several misconceptions so I offer this:
Pricing at the Margin
Full article: http://www.sbaer.uca.edu/research/asbe/2004_fall/17.pdf
Dillard Tinsley, Stephen F. Austin State University
Phil E. Stetz, Stephen F. Austin State University
<!---->The basic idea of contribution margin analysis is to evaluate an action and see if it pays back more than it costs (price less its respective variable costs). If negative, you lose money. If positive, however, you make additional profit; so taking the action should be considered. Pricing at the Margin (P@M) is the process of setting the price of a unit of product higher than the variable cost that stems from all the activities involved in producing and selling that one additional unit of product. Thus, setting price higher than variable costs marginally increases profit, i.e., total profit increases when the additional product is sold. (From this point forward in our discussion, it is assumed that the firm is at or beyond its breakeven point.) <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Breakeven analysis recognizes that fixed costs must be paid. The assumptions of a constant variable cost/product relationship and one product do not reflect the realities of actual businesses, which are usually selling a number of products. Insights drawn from pricing at the margin, however, can be very useful when businesses are already making profits, i.e., businesses that are above their breakeven points. Such businesses do not have to consider how the contribution margins of their various products add up to pay for fixed costs. The important point is that they have already paid their fixed costs. This means that any unused capacity can be evaluated for usage in terms of the variable costs that would result from their usage and the prices that customers would pay. Fixed costs do not have to be considered because they are already paid, so analysis only involves price and variable cost.
<!----> <!---->
For a business that has unused capacity and is past its breakeven point, P@M involves only the price that can be charged for an added product compared to the variable costs associated with adding that product. Because only variable costs must be considered, the price of a product can be reduced - often by a significant amount of money. Any reduced price that is higher than the variable cost will result in a profit when the product is sold. The contribution margin will be reduced by the amount of the price reduction, but this only means that less profit per unit will be generated if variable cost is constant. If there is an increase in the number of units sold, there will be less profit percentage per unit; but the absolute amount of money going to profits will be increased.
Cautions<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Strategic use of P@M is recommended for small businesses that are making profits and want to acquire new customers because unused capacity is available. P@M can be used by a business that is not already making a profit, but the mechanics of doing so often require complex calculations. Managers should recognize that other strategies are better for businesses without profits. Competing for customers through low prices usually requires economies of scale and operational efficiencies that are difficult for small businesses to achieve, although some small businesses do compete on the basis of low prices.
Emphasis added is mine - CS
Hastings - that'll be $6,000. Contact me offline and I'll tell you where you can mail it.
And here's the Cliff Note version (literally) of applying incremental analysis to business decision making: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/CliffsReviewTopic/Examples-of-Incremental-Analysis.topicArticleId-21248,articleId-21245.html
Edited 10/2/2009 9:59 am ET by CStanford
Charles:"Hastings - that'll be $6,000. Contact me offline and I'll tell you where you can mail it."That couldn't have taken a whole day surely :-)No discussion of pricing at the margin would be complete without also referencing customer value and opportunity cost. If you fill 6 months of excess capacity, then it's not available for better deals that might come your way.Regards,Hastings
Hastings,
"If you fill 6 months of excess capacity, then it's not available for better deals that might come your way."WOW. That is kinda like a half dozen beautiful college girls walking up to a 65 year old guy and asking if they can go away with him for the weekend. That would be a real problem. At least I think it would. The opportunity has not yet been presented to me. I wonder if I would complain that if I go with them, I might miss a better offer. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. My side hurts from laughing so hard at my joke (and my vivid irrepressible imagination, which has a mind of its own.)Have fun. Keep thinking of more dire circumstances like that. I love em.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:"That is kinda like a half dozen beautiful college girls walking up to a 65 year old guy and asking if they can go away with him for the weekend."Now that is an embarrassment of riches!You might find the attached flowchart of use, should you ever find yourself in such a position.Hastings
Hastings,
Thank you very much. If my wife ever lets me go on a date, I will use your chart. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ah! Now the personal improvement really begins!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Doesn't the math become really messy when you introduce stochastic elements, such as the probability of having to reject more lucrative projects out six months?
Edited 10/2/2009 8:38 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Steve:The old adage that a dollar and a prospect will get you a cup of coffee is as true today as always. This bird in hand etc.Hastings
Pricing at the margin and performing incremental analysis really isn't the way to price art or run a custom woodworking business selling very high end work.
Charles:I couldn't agree more. We should price at the price ceiling, i.e., the economic value. Something that a reasonable person might expect to pay.Unfortunately, there are other forces that force you off the ceiling, typically competition being the most important.Knowing the price floor tells you when a given opportunity would no longer contribute to the business.We all agree that you cannot run a business if you price at the floor, however, there are certain instances where that does make sense.I feel I am giving my pricing seminar in 100 word snippets on this thread! Conceptually it's pretty easy stuff; it's the practical, real world implementation that is difficult because what you need to know is unknowable, only guessable.Regards,Hastings
Charles, et al, I have watched the discussion since I last made a contribution. All the subsequent exchange, as far as I can tell, is somewhere up there in the realms of higher accountancy, business management theory, or something... I really don't know as all of it is rather alien to me.
In the end I estimate how much my materials will cost, how long a job will take and then I know quite accurately the expenses, etc I need to cover. As to giving a price to a customer, my pricing strategy (separate for my estimating method) generally falls into two camps:
1. Commissions
2. Speculative items, eg, destined for galleries, exhibitions, etc
At 1 above I try to focus primarily on two possible sets of circumstances, although there are sometimes additional factors to allow for:
1A. Is the job likely to be particularly price sensitive, eg, is it relatively run of the mill stuff that potentially could be purchased elsewhere such as a competitive bid from another maker?
1B. Is the design in my 'style' or in some other way individual and the client has come to me because they specifically want something of 'mine' or it's not likely to be made by another designer maker?
In 1A I take particular note of the client's budget, for example, or what I suspect the client's budget is and try to bid competitively. I may have been told a budget, but sometimes I judge that the stated budget is shy of the actual budget, if that makes sense.
At 1B I put a price in that I feel like putting in. In other words I may calculate that to make the profit I want I really need to charge £3000; I'm likely to ask for anything I feel like above this number, eg, £4000, £5000, etc.
With regard to speculative items for galleries and so on, see 2 above, I put whatever price I feel like putting on in a similar manner to that described in the previous paragraph.
I have no idea where my pricing strategy fits within all the discussion that's gone on between yourself, Hastings, and whoever else has been involved in the thread for about the last 100 posts. Perhaps one of you could clarify it for me, bearing in mind the question is not a facetious one. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 10/3/2009 2:40 pm by SgianDubh
Richard,
I have stayed with this thread since the beginning. Your last post is excellent. It is readily understandable. It covers different circumstances that fine woodwoorkers would encounter. I differentiates between estimating costs, and making a price. Excellent. No theory. Just based on actual practice in a successful woodworking business. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Richard,Your pricing method 1B/2 sounds a lot like mine. In most cases, I don't much care for the work entailed in the 1A category - too many restrictions.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
If I understand all this pricing theory, I should only take first dates to the prom?
The detailed post I made were more or less facetious. I assumed that it would be apparent that applying the methodologies contained therein to high end furnituremaking is absurd. Which it is. Totally.
Charles,Your post was so much above my head, it was inclined to take it seriously it, even though I didn't fully understand it so I only skim-read it. Thanks for clearing that up.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 10/3/2009 7:47 pm by flairwoodworks
The point really is that pricing on the margin is no more absurd than elaborate calculations to determine costs with fully allocated overhead and other nonsense. What matters is the really hard task of trying to determine the most that you can get from potential clients. It's a very hard thing to do. Incremental cost pricing only gives minimum that could be accepted, and then only under circumstances where it doesn't preclude more lucrative jobs, or set a precedent of being "cheap".
Ha, ha Charles. I must admit I've been wondering how much of the content of the thread from about post 150 to now was pure School of Business invented "businessbabble", and which bits might contain a kernel of sense buried deep within the obtuse fug of baffling verbiage.
I guess I'll ignore it as it's all pretty much beyond my ken. Slainte. richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
"....a kernel of sense buried deep within the obtuse fug of baffling verbiage".
We hobby fellows have it right - make stuff we want to, for folk that like it then give it to them. Sometimes we even make and give things to ourselves! Its all pleasure and the things-made are produced in an honest fashion for good reasons.
Meanwhile the professional lads must compromise this, that, the other. Soon they are a penny-pinching accountant or a con-man duping fetishistic persons into giving them thousands of dollars for a perky cabinet or swoopy chair.
Sad.
Lataxe
Lataxe, I guess you're right about hobby fellows having it right for hobby woodworkers in that generally limited field of endeavour.
The corollary to that is that someone has to have the training, skills, knowledge and facilities that hobby woodworkers can often only dream of to provide real businesslike solutions to real business clients, and that is where the amateur cannot compete for a wide variety of reasons.
I think I'll stick to rugby as my hobby. As a hobby it's got all the social benefits of the game without the pain of training like a loon, the fancy diet, and playing for serious money, ha, ha... a bit like an amateur woodworker I suppose. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
You play rugby and fail to train like a loon!? (I know you need no diet, being already slim and lovely). But what happens when the 17 stone of ill-mannered prop-forward addresses hisself to the task of your disembowlment via the application of a cunning combination of boot and elbow? Perhaps you scurry about confusingly and have learnt to sell dummies?
As to "businesslike solutions to real business clients" perhaps you refer to the ostentatious throwing-about of excessive pound notes by footballers wives or them anonymous corporations that wish to overcome their corporate bland with an eye-wrenching sculpti-thang in the foyer? Of course they throw the items out next year to make room for the latest fad-cabinet from the latest wood-artist. Still, this is modern business alright - fashion cycles of an ever-increasing whirl and pooh-pooh to the landfill issue!
But shurely shome mishtake! Proper furniture ought to be useful rather than a strange-shaped and apparently random collection of exotic timbers with doors that no one can find the handles for. And shouldn't real furniture have a price less than a year's or even a decade's average wage? Also, one feels a certain calm from items that eschew the fad; items which may reside in the hoosey for a lifetime or more whilst efficiently handling cups, saucers, plates, frocks and even a tired old bum.
I know: let them eat Ikea, the hoi-polloi!
Lataxe, a poor old peasant and sometime tired old bum.
Ah, Lataxe 'ol buddy, I used to play rugby; I just seemed to fade away from actually playing a couple of years ago without really retiring. I still have the boots and the rest of the kit, but one day I guess it'll have to go to a charity shop... unless I decide to make a comeback in some genteel old farts version of the game if such a thing exists. Nowadays therefore I don't need to train like a loon; but I seem to do the after game loonish socialising from time to time.
Are you slyly casting aspersions on my furniture in the hope of getting a rise out of me? As ever you are out of luck on that front, for I know you speak from shoogly peg being a design devourer rather than a design producer.
There's a new piece near completion by the way for another exhibition soon to open. I wouldn't be surprised to find out you'd visited the show and been all over it with your camera, tape measure, blunt 6B pencil, bag of rubbers (erasers for the American cousins) and graph paper in order to infiltrate interesting elements of the original into your next derivative item, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 10/4/2009 12:46 pm by SgianDubh
Ah Richard,
You know me so well. :-)
Yes, I'll be feeling-up your drawers again should you put them briefly in the public domain. I yam not proud and will steal any good design elements on the grounds that they have already been stolen 700 times since the stone age.
Now, I wasn't really thinking of your furniture as being overpriced sculpti-modern (although I am still wanting that heavy discount).
However, one does puzzle at why folk become obsessed with certain maker's wares to the point that they will pay thousands (or tens of thousands) even though it may be a somewhat ugly chair or an impractical cabinet involved. I mean, I know this happens concerning all sorts of stuff, especially "art" but I still fail to grasp the appeal to the collectors and similar. Some say it's an investment but many seem to buy merely to horde the stuff and never realise their "investment"....
Perhaps its a show-off thang?
****
A hypothetical question (for anyone, not just Richard):
If a successful commercial/professional woodworker wins the lottery so that he may then make cabinets and such for his own reasons and to his own desires, does his new status make his work better or worse? What causes any change? Is he now an amateur?
Lataxe
>If a successful commercial/professional woodworker wins the lottery so that he may then make cabinets and such for his own reasons and to his own desires, does his new status make his work better or worse? What causes any change? Is he now an amateur?<Many of the Pros that I have worked with in metal and mechanical etc., were business people first and craftspersons second. It seemed. The work was not the best. I think they did their best but were not curious people. Meaning they did not seek out all they could about a subject but went on hear say and fellow acquaintances info who got it from other similar subjects of the realm rather than going straight to the books of the " Merlins " if you will.Some here say I put too much stock in the " Merlins ". Very often I am gratified at the results especially if I combine more than one source. At least to begin. Then I can refine from there. With out the " Merlins " I would be hopelessly lost and creating a lot of waste. in time and materials.As my Pro employers invariably did/do.So I think many would turn out about the same stuff they do now they would just be less stressed about it. Or they wouldn't work at the trade at all because they only did it because they saw a niche to fill to make income rather than it being their calling.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/4/2009 4:50 pm by roc
Hello Lataxe , Marcou Herder / hoarder
Why they will pay thousands is a good question .
There is more than one answer prolly .
I think you can answer you own question best of all ,about why folks become " obsessed " with a certain makers wares to the point that they spend thousands and more .
Sorry , must call your trump card on this one .
As far as the lottery winning pro woodworker ,, can't see how more money could make the work better .the amateur status is typically associated with not for sale or business more hobby shop , but will not denote degree of skill or experience .What he is now is wealthy ..
regards dusty , will let you know if I win
Olden One,
Now, first we must dissolve a misconception. One herds Marcous so that one has recourse to fine functional fettlers of wood-stuff rather than to merely stroke at their gleam. Indeed, I fail to polish mine and the gleam is therefore now only a potential. A Marcou in a glass case! A crime agin' woodworkers everywhere, as such tools exist to work!!
***
Perhaps I have caught your contemplative eye with the lottery distraction. What I mean to ask is, does the necessity to serve the prosaic demands of eating and getting shelter via one's woodworking improve or detract from the non-economic qualities of the furniture produced?
To put it even more bluntly: does the commercialisation of making cause improvements to what is/can be made or does making one's woodwork into a business demean the products?
And in yet another form: given an equal education and ability in woodworking skills, is it the amateur or professional who is more likely to produce pieces of the highest craftsmanship and design?
Lataxe
Lataxe,To answer your question, I would say that either the amateur or well-established pro would produce the best quality work. The amateur can take as much time as it takes to make it just the way they want to if they are patient. An established pro will do an exceptional job as well because their name is on the piece, and anything less than stellar would be a mark against them.However, the green professional may find themselves caught up in the business aspect of woodworking and be trying to minimize labour costs by working quickly and efficiently, quite possibly at the expense of some details or finer points. This might be evident in either unrefined hidden surfaces, batched parts with less attention to grain and so-forth.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
O'l Chippy ,
You weaseled out of that one .
Who's pieces do we see mostly amateurs or pros ?
There are so many hobby type woodworkers that do absolutely beautiful works , yourself included , but the world may not know of these works .
The amateur has the liberty of time , the pro must track time to a point.
Your question again has more then one answer , sort of like an expert ,is an individual an expert before the magazines have found that person ? Or is expert status something that comes after fame and fortune ? Are they self proclaimed experts ?
The lotto dollars would certainly allow certain wood butchers like myself to herd a few Marcous and Multi Router bosses and sliding table saws and any other wants. These would be a dream to have and could open new operations never before done by the makers, but honestly the money and the herd of equipment and such will not add to our knowledge nor our skills already learned.
I honestly doubt we would be better makers because we have more money .
regards from the land of reality dusty
I vote solidly for the amateur.
tis the more skilled maker who does the best work , regardless of status or fame
"Is he now an amateur?"
Perhaps, but if he or she is now selling it at hyper prices to match the dallied style of making, and people are falling over themselves to buy it, I'd guess that woodworker is a well remunerated amateur that can afford to be choosy about who he or she sells to.
Somehow those with the bottle to put huge prices on their work always seem to find willing buyers, but I can't explain it. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
>Proper furniture ought to be useful rather than a strange-shaped and apparently random collection of exotic timbers with doors that no one can find the handles for. And shouldn't real furniture have a price less than a year's or even a decade's average wage? Also, one feels a certain calm from items that eschew the fad; items which may reside in the hoosey for a lifetime or more whilst efficiently handling cups, saucers, plates, frocks and even a tired old bum.<Lataxe ,That's tellin' 'em !>sometime tired old bum.<Well I was going to wait until Christmas but sounds like you need your Christmas present early so I am sending it along now.http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/browse/Home/Apothecary/Body-Care/Soaps/Tired-Old-####-Soak/D/30100/P/1:100:1000:10010:100050/I/f03661?evar3=SEARCHPS: I was in the bike shop the other day. Here is a sighting. Don't fret; just in for a new tire. She flew off good as new.PPS: Well isn't that special. Can't put up a direct link. In that case enter this secret code into the search windowPPPS: Oh try this: sub in that other term for bum beginning with A ending with S and with an S in the middle. SheeshTired Old #### SoakTired Old #### Soak, for the Overworked and UnderappreciatedrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 10/4/2009 1:53 pm by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->Edited 10/4/2009 1:57 pm by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 10/4/2009 1:59 pm by roc
>or a con-man duping <QueenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainerJust reminded me that one of the " Professioals " that still has to pretty much be competent and not a sharlton etc., is the farmer.She is roasting chillies today
See pics page down on second ( no I didn't turn the bowl purchased before I seriously considered doing any ww )Stephen Covey calls it " The Law of The Farm "http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/gerstman/misc/LawOfFarm.htmmeaning a person can BS all they want but if they don't put something in the ground and tend it properly there will be nothing to show or sell at the end of the year no mater how well the person yaps.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/4/2009 5:40 pm by roc
Charles,
This sounds similar to the situation I am in (albeit in reverse) with a small item I make for a museum. The item is one that the museum orders annualy, and I sell to them at a loss, wholesale. At each cutting, I make additional number of them, which I sell at retail. In sum, the piece yields me a profit, with the added cachet of being able to say that I have the museum as a client.
Ray
OK, I have a question. This is an interesting topic, and it has overlaps with other professions, even with my own as a clinical psychologist in private practice. I am not sure whether my experience is truely transferable, but I will describe it and you can decide.
The question of what fee to charge is the issue. A bit of background info is in order.
My governing body offers a recommendation for an hourly fee, but this is not necessarily a rule taken up literally. There is Medicare available but this covers about half the recommended fee. Most practitioners charge anything from 50% to 100% of the recommended fee. Why is that?
There are a couple of reasons, as I see it. The first is that the novice practitioner is not yet comfortable in charging for their services. Another is the practitioner who is struggling - or fears struggling - to develop a clientelle, and charges what he/she considers is a competitive fee. There are those that charge the full recommended fee, and others who look on with awe or bewilderment that this person actually gets paid this amount and remains in practice.
As a specialist in paediatric/child pyschology, most of my referrals come either via paediatricians, psychiatrists, general practitioners or word-of-mouth. The latter group probably accounts for as much as the other groups together.
I tend to divide my potential clientelle into two groups: those that are expressely seeking out my services, and those that are shopping around.
For those whom are shopping around for a price I accept that they will go onto someone else since my fees are not competitive at this level. My practice is a business as much as it is a service. I do not charge the full recommended rate, but my fees are definitley at the high end of the spectrum. I am not competing for business at a level of price. I am competing for business at the level of expertise.
How do I work out my fee? Essentially I charge as much as I believe my target market will accept. This is not based on my overheads. Whether I see one person or one hundred, my overheads are not going to change. I am sure that I could charge for more than I do - no doubt there are many who would consider my fees conservative. However I am comfortable in the belief that they are affordable yet provide a decent hourly reinbursement for my time. I determine what I consider to be a "decent hourly reinbursement" by being knowledgeable of the fees charged by other professions, and choosing a level that reflects what I believe I am worth.
OK, all that is preamble. Here is the interesting feature ...
When discussing fees with a new patient, as I do telephonically prior to the initial consultation, no one ever questions the fee I state and no one asks for a discount. My impression is that they do not know what other practitioners charge. These individuals have not shopped around - have no desire in shopping around - simply accept that the fee being charged is reasonable for the services they will receive. I often think that I could have asked for more (this is how I interpret their reaction. I do not plan to act on it).
Those for whom the lowest fee is all-important will shop around, and they will find a clinician at that level. I do wonder what percentage of those seeking a service find this important, or even consider it. My impression is that most do not do so. They will have a affordable price range in mind, and as long as the fee offered falls into that range, then they accept the fee. As much as I am influenced by the fees charged by other professions, prospective clientelle appear to be influenced by marketing (from a variety of sources).
So I pose the same question to professional woodworkers: what proportion of your clientelle actually shops around for prices? You may be undercutting your own prices unnecessarily.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Now that is a good comparison. I did not know you were a clinical psychologist.Just an observation People just expect to pay professional fee's. I think because of all that expensive formal education. Were as wood workers come from many backgrounds with out a set of professional guidelines. (know that could be a flaming thread).I know when I need my neck fusion done, I know who is going to do it. Given Canada's health plan, no cash for these services it comes done to who do you want to wait for?After working as a RN and worked in the OR for many years. you soon see who you want to play with your body parts. But better yet who is going to put you to sleep????My Uncle Dean Sane wrote a book on 0 based budgeting for Hospital administration. He toured internationally about this, but the local folks never heard of it. The last hospital he built just out side of Toronto Canada he brought it in for 10% under budget.Back to making a living. I was just asked to finish a job left partially finished. Lots of little stuff.. The fellow has seen my work and called me first! and said "charge what you want, I know you are fair and do good work" and "my wife just wants it done" . So I guess my name is getting out. I will post pics of the front entry when done. Regards
Shoe
Charles, Derek, Hastings, Shoe, Dusty, Chris, .......This is getting pretty meaty. Glad Charles and Derek chimed in with some heavy thoughts. I just got back from the Waterford, Virginia Annual Arts and Crafts festival, which is a highly juried show. You gotta be GOOD to get in. It was at this show, three years ago that I met Ray Pine. He invited me to come up and meet him and see the show. We did. Unfortunately Ray stopped participating in the show last year after more than 20 years. Well, I gotta tell ya, the woodworkers are alive and well at Waterford. BIG MONEY exists all around Waterford. BIG BIG money. Well, high style furniture is widely available at the show. There were at least a half dozen folks offering Chippendale. There were eight or more doing excellent Windsor chairs, some traditional, and some very modern. There were three bowl carvers there. That is where I got interested in carving bowls three years ago. I know the three by now. I believe the highest price piece of furniture there was about $30,000. There were plenty of chairs for $4000 and above. The bowl carvers (NOT TURNERS) were getting more than $300 apiece. There were artists in all venues: painting, glass, wood, cloth, etc etc etc. And the prices are high, and the stuff is selling. If it wasn't, the sellers wouldn't come back. FINE WOODWORKING IS ALIVE AND WELL IN VIRGINIA. The artists in wood at the show came from all over the US, but mostly the NorthEast. Pieces are selling for thousands of dollars apiece.Glad to be the bearer of good tidings.
Glad to see this discussion of pricing is going strong.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That's good to know. There's hope for us all Mel!! Looks like we just have to find the right venue to show off our stuff.
http://www.mvflaim.com
Mike,
"Looks like we just have to find the right venue to show off our stuff."I am reminded of the old joke about the cop who saw a drunk, one night, looking in the gutter under a street light. The cop asked the drunk what he was doing. The drunk said "Looking for my watch". The cop asked, "is this where you think you lost it?. The drunk said, "No, I lost it over there." Cop asked "Then why are you looking for it here?
Drunk said: "Because the light is better here."So where should woodworkers look for potential clients.
The answer is: Where the money is.
I have long recommended that woodworkers in and around VA go to the Waterford show. WHen you get within ten miles of Waterford, you notice that all of the houses are MANSIONS on spreads of many acres! Money, MOney, Money. Ain't no po' folk in Waterford either. As you park in one of the fields on the side of the town, you see the cars: Lexus, Infinity, Lexus, money money money. You look at the people walking around the fair, and you can just see that these folks are not on welfare.Younger woodworkers would do well to go to shows like Waterford, and watch the interaction between the folks and the woodworkers who are selling stuff. Talk to the woodworkers. THey love to talk. So there is lots to learn by "looking where the money is"!!!!!!I noticed something today at Waterford. Almost every woodworker who is selling pieces from hundreds of dollars to thousands per piece, OFFERS WOODWORKING COURSES. THey are the usual week long courses which cost somewhere around a Thousand Dollars tuition (plus room, board, travel, expenses). So the successful woodworkers are almost all finding that older well-off male woodworking hobbyists, are ripe for making money off of. I looked at photos of past classes, and there is no doubt. Most of the participants are older and male, and can afford to spend a few grand for a fun week of woodworkingAnother thing I noticed among the woodworkers at the Fair -- these guys (all are guys) are a proud group. They are not looking to give discounts. They are looking for potential clients who really want what they have to sell. I heard one conversation between a woodworker and a lady who was asking about the effects of the recession. He said something like: "We sell to people who are passionate about what we make. They find a way to get the things they want. Our work is of the highest quality." This guy was not just mouthing the words of a sales manager. This guy was talking from the heart. I met another guy who is a Windsor chair maker, but he had developed a number of different off-beat Windsor chair interpretations. I mean "far out". I asked why. He said "After you have made as many traditional Windsor chairs as I have, you feel the need to try somthing new and different. He asked me, my wife and my sister in law about our reactions to a few of his new creations. We told him, and his reaction was fabulous. He said, "well, these are first-cuts, and they just are not right. I am trying to get feedback on what folks think of how comfortable they are and how they look. These are pieces whose design is in transition." WOW. A real designer who is gutsy enough to get out of his comfort zone and try some new stuff. I got to converse with dozens of top notch woodworkers today, and I HAD A WONDERFUL TIME DOING IT. During many of those conversations, I was thinking about this Knots thread. Mike, I wish you and the rest of the gang could have been there. Of course, it will be open tomorrow and Sunday too. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You have touched on one of the key problems that I think contribute greatly to the tendency of woodworkers to fall back upon cost-based pricing, at the expense of profitability. This is the problem of information.
Getting cost information is easy—the woodworker observes all his cash outlays, and can add up, or at least estimate fairly closely, the amount of time a project will take. What is very difficult is determining the market conditions. There is no exchange floor where outcry determines a transaction price that is then instantly flashed around the world to computer screens on every traders desk. It’s hard to know, even in your local area what prices are actually charged for custom furniture, in particular. It’s also hard to gauge what a customer is really willing to pay. There is a lot of intuition, knowledge of your customers, just plain guess work coupled with a degree of personal personal confidence required to gauge the marketplace to search out the best price obtainable for ones efforts. Consequently, like the drunk looking for his keys, searching under the light post of solid cost information seems more reliable that guessing in the marketplace.
That leads to what I’ve called satisficing behavior. If you always set prices at levels that cover both your estimate of allocated fixed costs, and the variable costs, and you are sufficiently fully occupied that the fixed cost estimate turns out right, (sometimes a big if) you will at least stay in business. That is what may leave 10s of thousands of bucks on the table each year. This satisficing may look like risk reduction, and it might be if you are a bad market analyst.
Now to Derek’s specific example. He pointed out that he has a "governing" body that is organized to, among other things, maintain prices. It does that by limiting entry to the field, and to a degree by "suggesting" fees. Apparently, practitioners aren’t terribly shy about sharing their fee schedules among themselves, either. In addition, word of mouth clients are likely to have a pretty good idea of how much your fees are, another reason clients appear to not be price sensitive.
But, in contrast, there is no limitation to entry for woodworkers—it doesn’t cost that much to equip a shop, and there are no educational, or licensing requirements beyond pretty minimal (in most places) contractor licensing provisions for some kinds of work. To compound the problems, there are plenty of near amateurs who can stay in "business" if they never meet fixed costs, and who can turn out creditable results. In addition, from a function point of view there are factory made alternatives to many of the products of craftsman woodworkers. All that says that doing well financially as a woodworking craftsman is going to be very, very difficult.
Shows like the Waterford VA show is one source for comparing prices and quality. I'd think visiting such venues would be essential for woodworkers seeking to make money in the business.
derek,
I would point out that a parent seeking professional help for their child is more likely to place more weight on a personal recommendation/reputation (word of mouth--"go see dr cohen, he's realllly a good dr!") than a particular price point (well, dr cohen is the best, costwise!). I speak from personal experience here.
In seeking a maker for a piece of furniture, price may carry relatively more weight than the practitioner's reputation in the shopping process. Nothing ventured, nothing gained,sure, but the potential for loss is limited to what is contracted.
Antique restoration/conservation, however, might be a more similar situation to a parent seeking help for a child, as the client is seeking "help" for an antique, which already represents a considerable investment (potential for loss).
Ray
For Chris or any other individual trying to determine how much to charge for the work they do , they have to be realistic and aware of the local demand or market prices in there area.
Interestingly enough, this is the essence of what Hastings is saying. Prices should be based on what the market will accept. The only costs relevant to the decision are the ones that are incurred if the job is accepted. Those must be covered.
In his example, he felt the market (for that customer, in that place) would accept $425, and he was correct, the customer took his "bid". We don't know for sure if he could have gotten more. So, what should he do if the customer had responded offering him only $50 to do the same work? (Assume for this instance, that setting the price for this job doesn't set a precedent for other woodworking jobs.) What if the price the customer offered was $20?
Edited 10/1/2009 2:39 pm ET by SteveSchoene
"You're a consultant of sorts aren't you?"
Yes, and I am...
Sorry it's a bit of an inside joke around our office. Our one consultant always speaks in technical terms, where the full time guys speak much less formally.
Both my wife and I have worked as consultants. We both disliked the 'loneliness' of it, we felt like insiders on the outside. The money was nice though...
Anyway, I probably think too classically. If I gather what your saying correctly is that the cost of your CNC, your shop, your time are all irrelevant. That is being spent regardless of if you do the job or not. Your 'profit' for the job is the difference between the price and the costs you can directly define for this job. These costs are your 'avoidable costs', the wood, glue and finishing supplies. (I can see here the issue in defining cost, you would not use a full unit of glue or finish… or even necessarily wood.)
Continuing your example. For arguments sake (and simplicity in math) lets say your shop costs on average $100/day to run. So your net profit (?) would be $300; as compared to a $100 loss that you'd eat by not doing the job. You're time value would be $37.50/hour.
In this case it appears that arguing from costs would full depend on what you felt your hourly value was worth. Which I suppose is half the argument here. If you wanted to make $60,000 and could guarantee that you'd be busy for your 2000 hours, you'd charge $30/hour and $100/day shop time. If you felt that 40% of your time would not be chargeable then you’d charge $50, your shop time would then be $166/day. Your price (shop cost + material + 8*rate) would be between $365 - $591. That's making no 'profit', though you would have a salary. If your client was only willing to pay $450, rejecting the job because it wouldn't meet your costs would actually end up costing you your daily rate anyway...
Anyway, I'm rambling...
Buster:" Your 'profit' for the job is the difference between the price and the costs you can directly define for this job. These costs are your 'avoidable costs', the wood, glue and finishing supplies. (I can see here the issue in defining cost, you would not use a full unit of glue or finish… or even necessarily wood.)"Incremental avoidable costs include ALL of these type of costs, including tooling and glue (even though you may have some left over). These then become "sunk" costs and, as such, are irrelevant to future jobs. If you buy 5 gallons of glue it all goes to the job."Continuing your example. For arguments sake (and simplicity in math) lets say your shop costs on average $100/day to run. So your net profit (?) would be $300; as compared to a $100 loss that you'd eat by not doing the job. You're time value would be $37.50/hour."Assuming that the shop costs are not avoidable, then they are not included in the calculation of profit."If you wanted to make $60,000"It's no good starting at what you want to make. You have to start at what the market will bear and then adjust everything accordingly. Now, if you price to near the price floor, you will not have enough cash flow to satisfy the running costs of the business. That is why it is important to choose a market segment that is willing to pay for the value.But at the margin, a calculation of incremental avoidable cost will tell you whether yo should do the job, but it is highly circumstantial. For example, if my client needed me to substitute a consulting day to do the work, then my incremental avoidable cost would have gone to around $6,000 and so I would have turned the job down unless the owner was willing to pay that much!I know it's a little counter intuitive, but once you get your mind around starting at what the customer might be wiling to pay it all falls into place. Remember no customer says, I know you have the running cost of that Range Rover so I want to pay a little more for this work - but that's what you do when you try cost-plus methodologies - you just don't mention the Range Rover!Regards,Hastings
I mentioned the $60,000 as a means to differentiate between you customer pricing and the cost+ pricing. Once I actually worked it out I could see how useless cost+ was, since in the end my price was above what the market would pay. From your method you'd have made money... I would be sitting here waiting for my next comission.I don't think its necessarily counter intuitive at all. It's just not what we want to hear, I think we want to hear by pricing your goods at a certain price that includes a $X/hour amount, that we will make money. Once you get past the terminology, what your saying makes sense.
Hastings,>Yes, and I am able to charge $6000 + per day<Aaaauuuggghhhh! In 5 days, you can make more than I do in a year! Do you enjoy your work?Even though your perspective here is as a hobbyist rather than a professional woodworker, you have still brought up a very good point that is relevant even to the pros:>I think the principal lesson is to first ask what the job is worth to the particular customer in these particular circumstances. For example, a neighbor has installed new a/c in his historic home and would like a return air vent made in wood. Easy job, except it has to be under the stairs and incorporates a 40 degree slope on one side. That's the tricky part!
OK, so what is it worth? Well, a metal vent can cost $200. My intuition said that he would balk at more than $500 - it just doesn't seem worth more than that. I think he would have a hard time finding someone to do it. So, I priced it at $425.<Pricing by feel. I involve this process in my pricing. My time, knowledge, experience, and materials are worth at least THIS much. But a piece of furniture is only worth THAT much. So the price you would charge would have to be somewhere in between. Too low, and you are losing. To high, and you lose the job.I just finished reading "Tabletop Machining" by Joe Martin of Sherline Products. Although it's about metalworking, the business aspects he discusses is quite interesting. When pricing his products, he aims for a price high enough that the consumer will not immediately reach for their wallet, but instead think about it for a bit. But he wants the price low enough that the customer doesn't immediately lose interest. It's worth noting that he does not believe in taking shortcuts in manufacturing, so he does not design a product to cost X amount. For the record, I don't have the book in front of me right now, so I am going by memory.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 10/1/2009 3:51 pm by flairwoodworks
Chris:It sounds as if you are on the right track. I like the quote from the machinery guy - very insightful.I like to tell clients that pricing is 10% technical and 90% fortitude. After all, Maloof must have had some pretty sizable cojones to charge $50,000 for a rocking chair!Good luck with your business - I wish you well.Hastings
I find the loophole in your arguement to be where you say, "and a piece of furniture is only worth THAT much." Who says what it is worth? Manufactured furniture? That's not apples to apples. You have to compare to custom one of a kind works (even from a larger shop) which may be difficult to do. I would never say that you lack confidence, but what are these comparables for pricing furniture? I say YOU set the price and then find the customers. The problem with building to the tastes of passersby is that it tends to lower the quality and the nature of the work. I guess what I'm feeling is that one can't be passive in making a real place in the business. Confidence counts for a lot. And also it depends on your intent. The funiture or cabinet 'contractor' (ficticious beast) would sway to every ebb and flow of the mass market in providing functional woodwork; the artist not so much--and they may earn either less or more. Sounds like it comes down to a business model, a strategy for being unique. It's nice to talk to you again, Chris. As you are both younger and probably more experienced than I, please take my thoughts with a few mg of sodium.Brian
Brian,"and a piece of furniture is only worth THAT much." That would be defined by the customer, certainly not the competition, whether that competition be fellow custom furniture makers or factories. For example (prices made up), a simple side table: you can buy one from Ikea for $40. Or you can order one from a custom furniture maker for $800. Now, the $40 table will likely stand up and serve it's purpose and last for a while. But the $800 verion will likely be better crafted, making better use of grain and colour in the wood and feature more enduring construction, lasting for generations. Bottom line: more attention to detail from the custom maker. But however good the custom-made table is, it is only worth so much. $1500 (or $15000) would simply be too much - unjustifiable for the purpose it serves. Note that all the prices were just made up to make my point.That said, once you get a name for yourself, it seems that you can charge whatever you please.I try to stay familiar with other custom furniture makers, the quality of their work, what they make, and what they charge. But I certainly don't worry about it. I price my work largely without regard to what they are charging. I price my work on what I feel it is worth and what I will get for it. So in a way, I do set my price, then find customers as you suggested. My work tends to be quite unique, so that makes pricing easier in some ways.And you hit the nail on the head with "The problem with building to the tastes of passersby is that it tends to lower the quality and the nature of the work." I have been there, done that. Establishing a price first, then building to suit is not the way to go (for me).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
From just reading all the posts yesterday, it sounds like most of the people who post are where I hope to be in a few years. I've only been at this for about 4 years, and hope I can continue to make progress towards my goals. Thanks for the reply, and the info.
Newbie,
If you have been at this for four years, you are no longer a newbie. Why not change your name to "Mediumbie"? :-)It is important to understand that the folks here are all doing different things, but they are using the same words to describe them. Once you get to know them, you can take this into account. It is an entirely different thing to be making cabinets than to be making Chippendale highboys. What type of woodworking are you doing? I am retired from a career at NASA, and woodworking is a passion and a hobby for me. I have been doing it since 1968. I go back and forth between: making furniture, refurbishing antiques, and carving. The changes keep me fresh.Knots is a great place to have fun, and to learn from others, but it is not an "easy" place to learn at. The problem is that some of what is written is great, some is good, some is totally insane, and none of it comes with a label that says good, bad or insane. For the newbie, it is hard to tell the context of a message, that is, the background of the person doing the writing. After a while, you begin to know the backgrounds of Dusty, Jammersix, Hastings, SteveShoene, CStanford, etc etc etc. There are some great people here from whom one can learn a lot. But the amount of BS which is interspersed with the good stuff is immense. Too bad there Knots doesn't have a filter to get rid of the BS, but then again, if they did, all of my stuff might disappear. :-)Have fun. Keep at it.
MelMelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel, besides the 3 "kneelers" I made for home prayers, I have been developing my skills making things for the house and wife. Nothing too detailed; miniture spoon display, shadow box, display case for a wedding gift ( this one I am proud of) and a few things for friends. I try to be a perfectionist, but it still evades me. So far, all the things I have made look good, but I can see the mistakes I made even if no one else can; and that irritates me. But I keep at it and try not to make the same mistakes twice. BTW, I am a truck driver who is looking to retire in 5 years so I am using this time before I hang up the keys to develop my skills and hopefully make a few bucks at it in the future: not as a business, but as a hobby making "mad money". Thanks for insight to Knots, I will be a frequent visitor.
mike
Newbie,
Good luck with preparing for retirement. Do it. If you are going to be a perfectionist, you won't make any money in woodworking, but you may have a lot of fun. Lookin' forward to seeing you around Knots.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
No, it is not possible to make a decent living as a woodworker. Run while you can...
bk
Hi Kyle,
I just watched CNBC and they interviewed Thomas A Johnson, a man who came to America in 1993 from Ghana with $20.00 in his pocket. He specializes in making fine furniture from recycled material. CNBC said he will double his business this year to $400,000 in sales.
www.thomasjohnsonfurniture.com
http://www.mvflaim.com
Mike,
I clicked on the Thomas Johnson website address. I couldn't get it to load. I waited for a while while my browser said it was loading, but after a while, I just clicked it off. After two tries, I gave up. I hope his furniture is better than his website. I loved your reply to Mr. Maus. It is very upbeat. There is a problem with it, depending on how it is "read". For example. You gave an "existence proof". In other words, you proved, given one example, that it is possible for a person with no money to develop a successful woodworking business. Existence proofs demonstrate incontrovertably thata something is possible, but not that is probably. For example, you could tell me that Shakespeare wrote good plays, and therefore it is possible, or that Mario Lanza was a great singer, and so it is possible for me to do that too. Well, I am tone deaf. So music is out. My guess is that Thomas Johnson:
- has "fire in the belly". He wants to be successful so bad that he will go all out to make it happen, and he won't take or make excuses.
- is creative in solving practical problems.
- has a flair for designing things that can be made in a reasonable amount of time.
- is creative enough to look at some reclaimed wood and figure out something to make with it, that he can sell.
- is a "natural born salesman". I know lots of these. I also know folks who couldn't sell real Tiffany lampshades for $100. :-)My grandfather left Italy with no skills other than agricultural. He ended up building a hotel in Connecticut. He was successful. I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time with the man. He was a true force of nature.I wonder about people who ask other people they don't know about the possibility of making money in woodworking. My guess is that if they ask such a question, they have NO CHANCE at success. If they dive in, and have entrepreunerial qualities, they have a good chance. ALSO, entrepreneurs fail a lot, but they come back, and back and back. I love the entrepreunerial spirit. The trouble with answering these questions on the web is that one cannot assess the qualities of the person who asked the question. But then again, I don't believe a real entrepreneurial potential woodworker would ask such a question. Instead, he would look up info on people who have succeeded in woodwork, read and extract as much info as possible, develop a plan, and GO FOR IT. He would push people aside who were negative about his chances. Great topic, isn't it?Here are a number of questions that a real woodworking entrepreneur, who was about to set up his business would NOT ask:
- Should I buy Lie Nielsen of Lee Valley?
- Pins first or tails first?
- Which bandsaw should I buy?
- do I need a shoulder plane?
- Who was the greater woodworker, Krenov or Maloof?
- etc etc etc.Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think Thomas's website crashed after he appeared on CNBC. I can't get it to work either. The only link about him I could get is this. http://unitedwaycv.org/media/TJF_Cellarette.pdf
I agree on your assessment about what it takes to be an entrepreneur. As an entrepreneur you need to be a business person first, a skilled laborer second. Sometimes I get a kick out of posters who say they are considering opening up a cabinet shop in the future and were wondering which woodworking school they should go to for experience. Not that learning more about the craft wouldn't be helpful, but if you're going to start a woodworking business, you should go to business school.
My Grandfather also came from Italy (the Dolomite region) when he was a kid and worked in the coal mines of Minnesota and eventually settled in Detroit working for Ford and opening a small hardware store. Could it be that we are possibly related somehow??? oh no.... ; )
http://www.mvflaim.com
Mike,
WE ARE SECOND COUSINS, FOUR TIMES REMOVED!!!!!
Do you speak any Italian?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
very little. My wife and I went to Italy on our honeymoon last year and all I could say was Ciao and Grazie. We started in Venice, took a train to Siena then a bus to Rome and flew home. Beautiful country! We stayed a week and the whole trip didn't cost all that much. No more than a trip to Hawaii would cost. The most expensive part is the airfare. You can book rooms and transportation direct and save a lot of money as opposed to booking an all expense paid tour. I recommend it to any one who has the chance!!! Have you ever been to Italy?
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 9/25/2009 10:12 pm ET by mvflaim
Mike,
All four of my grandparents were from Italy. My mother's parents were from Bari in the south of Italy. My father's parents were from a little town near Milan. I went to Italy once in 1962 and four times in the 1980s. I have done a lot of family research, and learned to read Italian, and to speak it, although not fluently. I have family all over Italy, and write to them via email. Knowing what I know now, I would like to go back to Italy. I will, but probably not for a year or so. I have two young grandchildren and another one coming. Spoiling these three kids is our first priority. Then my wife wants to go to England. So my guess is a trip to Italy is about three years away. Have fun, mio amico.
Ciao, a piu tardi.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
My wife Anita loved Italy. She keeps looking at the Mediterranean cruises on Carnival asking when we can go back. I think next time we will stay north a little bit longer and check out the Venezia region along with the smaller towns around the Dolomites.
Here's a pic of us on the Rialto Bridge in Venice last November.
Spero che lei ritornerà all'Italia al più presto possibile
http://www.mvflaim.com
hi myflaim, you mentioned (dolomite region) where is that near, if you know? my grandfather came from around perugia, and were tin miners i think, they settled in scranton,pa. then around chicago. i think i read somewhere that they looked or advertised for minors from Europe
to come to the mines in this country. you never know!
bob
up north next to Austria. My Grandfather's family left when there was a war between Italy and Austria. The territory now belongs to Italy.
http://www.mvflaim.com
Thomas Johnson's site http://www.thomasjohnsonfurniture.com works now (at least for me).Edit: Added Thomas Johnson's website address.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 9/27/2009 2:43 pm by flairwoodworks
Hi Chris. which site were you refering to?
Thanks
http://www.thomasjohnsonfurniture.comChris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Got it thanks
Hello Kyle,
I also own planes by Lie-Nielsen and Veritas, and in my opinion, I would say the craftsmanship/quality of the Clifton planes are on par with both Lie-Nielsen and Veritas.
I did read a review on the Clifton #4 smoother and the reviewer found the sole of the plane he tested was not ground perfectly flat at the factory. When I checked my Cliftons upon purchase, they were all dead flat and machined perfectly square to the sides. Maybe I was just lucky.
After giving the blades a quick honing and polish (about 10 minutes work) I was getting whisper thin shavings. I realy like the two piece cap iron on the Clifton. It is very easy to touch up the edge and get back to work quickly. The blades are hand forged high carbon steel that take and hold a very keen edge.
For me, it all comes down to how the tool performs and feels in your hands as you work the wood. In my case, they just seem to fit my hands.
If esthetic's are a consideration, the Cliftons are also very pleasing to the eye!
In short, I have no regrets with the purchase of any of the three I own.
Good Luck.
Cbarles,
"I'm a bit surprised. "
I love to be surprised. It doesn't happen around here as much as it should. I am overjoyed when it does. Even if it is a negative surprise, it is better than dull, same old, same old.
I think we are making some small headway into the question of how to make a living at woodworking. We we are making some headway on the issue of the skills necessary to cost, design, make and deliver, furniture (Richard Jones) and cabinets (Old Dusty). Both have been very forthcoming. Most professionals seem to me to be hesitant to give away such information.
Although there must be similarities, I believe things are quite different for:
- custom cabinetmakers
- period furniture makers
- modern furniture designer/makers
- woodcarvers (Lee Grindinger -- the one we used to know)
- wood turners (bowl makers) of whom there are many
- makers of small cheaper items (toys, boxes, Shaker boxes, etc)
- architectural millwork folks,
- Furniture restoration
- and on and on and on.
Another thing that is coming out is: the need to add in overhead. The woodworker has expenses. To make a living, these must be covered.
All of this is MUCH deeper than the original suggestion "why don't you make bible boxes for your friends at church", which I do not believe will get anyone into a money making situation.
Any suggestions from you, who are a well experienced professional at making custom woodwork????????
We haven't heard much about another VERY IMPT topic, cultivating clients so that they come back and back and back.
Any thought on all of this would be welcome.
Hope that four month old is doing well.
Thanks,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello, Kyle.
Here's my answer based on eight years of experience as a professional woodworker:
Prepare to start off at around $10 an hour, unless you live on the East or West coast. You'll work your way up and probably make $1 per hour more every year, if you've got a strong work ethic and can learn new skills.
It seems that most professional cabinetmakers top out at about $16 per hour. In eight years, I've never met a guy who works solely on the shop floor who makes more than $17 an hour. If you learn CAD, CNC programming and sales functions you might be able to make a little more.
I've got a Bachelor's degree in Management and do drafting, CNC programming, work on the shop floor and do installation, and I make about $18 an hour.
Small Woodworking Business for Sale
Actually, I have been making a small living with a woodworking business -- custom furniture and cabinetry. I also have another job to supplement my business. However, someone could make this work all on their own if they actually did at least some of the construction themselves instead of contracting it out to nearby Amish workers. At this time in my life, I am getting ready to retire and would like to sell my business -- nice 3 brm house, large workshop, large garage/finishing shop, and large pole barn, 10 acres in Branch County Michigan. If anyone is seriously interested, please contact me.
Thank you, Anna
wood working is like fine art. Some people do it well and make a ton. Some people do it so-so and do all right. Some people do it lousy but with a mentor survive day to day.. Then again some people do it it only as a hobby with a back up of a pension or Social security and putz along. it is all about finding a niche market that is the popular theme today or doing extremely fine work and having a reputation.
Im sure that Leonardo would have loved to get for his work what they sell for now. Starving artists we all are
Might be too cerebral for me.
The philosophy of the woodworking business. Zen and motorcycle mechanics.......I almost became a motorcycle mechanic before I turned to woodworking as a profession.
I've had varying levels of success in business over the years I've been in business since I was a teenager and haven't woked for anybody except myself in forty years, my business being architectural woodwork, homebuilding, cabinets and to a lesser degree, funrniture.
My observation in regards to making an "above average" income in the woodworking business is this:
Youthful enthusiasm is likely ones best sales tool.
If you exceed your client's expectations you will win his loyalty. If you exceed the expectations too greatly you might give him all your profit.
Don't confuse productivity with profitability.
If you are not behind schedule a little bit all the time your not busy enough.
In order to make decent money one must take on a lot of responsibility such as employees which can be stressful.
Handling lots of stress an appearing calm and organized can be profitable.
It's easier to make 10% of $1 million in sales than it is to make 90% of $100 thousand.
Pay attention to the numbers, account payable, accounts receivable, income statements, payroll, and especially TAXES. Get behind on any of these and your toast.
Be creative, innovative and do quality work. Do something to make your work different than everybody else.
Work for rich people ordering expensive products.
I am currently ignoring most all of the advise I gave in the above bullet list. My business volume is at an all time low. I have much less stress and responsibility than I once had. I'm enjoying my woodworking more than ever and am doing some creative stuff that I didn't used to have time for. I'm still a professional woodworker, making less than I used to but "getting by".
Being a pro carpenter, woodworker can be at times physically demanding (sore back), dusty, dirty and dangerous. As a hobbiest one could avoid some of the unpleasantness if one chooses to, I suppose.
If you have read this far I am amazed.
Bret
Time is Money
Dusty,
You nailed it!
When woodworking for relaxation it didn't mattter that you took five hours to do something that should only take a hour.
But when you put that hat on that say's PRO time equals money.
The other aspect that I haven't seen mentioned is when your a amature you have to the choice of what you make, how you make it, the type of material to use, and the look of what the final product. As a Pro you have to give the client what they want, and their taste can sometime be completely different than yours.
For example I just built a base cabinet & upper cabinet for a clients laundry room. She came to me with what she wanted, it was a picture from a magazine. She wanted it made completely of Maple. It was a beautiful set of cabinets. But what killed me is that she insisted on having the painted. I hated to hide all that beautiful wood behind paint. Bottom line is she is the one paying the bill. A major part of our job is to make the client happy.
I tried to change her mind but she wanted them white. I have been getting better at realizing I am not building this piece for myself, but fore the client.
Any how I havent been on Knots for while and it's nice to see that a bunch of you are still here. I'll have to spend some time reading all that I have missed while away.
Taigert
Would Working (pun intended)
Kyle, you have touched a spot close to all our hearts - look at the replies, Mel, 6919, and Lataxe and so many other regulars. I have run companies for other people and have started and run two companies for myself. Here is the truth to the matter, owning and running a company (or business) means you are a businessman. Not a woodworker. If you want to just be a woodworker I strongly suggest you go find a company or business that needs woodworking staff. They will take care of financing, accounting, legal, workers compensation, hydro, bankers, insurance, marketing, etc etc etc. You can do woodwork. And, they will pay you while you develop your skills, no risk to you. If you think you would like to develop your own designs you can do so on "your time" (weekends and evenings) and you can post your work on FWW "Custom Made". Some day you may develop the following like some of the studio-woodworkers out there and then with a line of customers lined outside the door, you can HIRE a manager to run Your business while You do what You like in the shop. Thats it. In a nutshell, "do not start a business to give yourself a job", running a business IS a job.
Robert.
in the same boat
kyle,
can we talk through email? I think we have a great deal in common
seth
[email protected]
Along with woodworking, you can think of doing repairing and refinishing wooden furniture, repairing antiques. It can be very beneficial as many people like to have wooden furniture at home and it needs frequent maintenance.
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