Finally got my lumber rack done and in use. I used 2X4 on edge with 7/8 counterbored holes 2 3/4″ deep to hold the 1/2″ ID galv. steel water pipe giving me 14″ shelves for my raw stock lumber to sit on. Only two screws in each vertical 2X4 stud into the wall studs. Cleats screwed to the ceiling trusses and butted to the ends of the vertical studs are what really hold everything in place. Thanks for ForestGirl for the inspiration, I copied a picture of her lumber system. I love it, I’ve got a LOT of weight on it (approx 500 board feet of silver maple) yet there’s hardly any stress on the shop wall, all the weight is transfered thru the vertical supports into the concrete floor instead of ‘hanging’ off the wall studs. I couldn’t be happier…
Jeff
Replies
" yet there's hardly any stress on the shop wall, all the weight is transfered thru the vertical supports into the concrete floor instead of 'hanging' off the wall studs."
I'm not an engineer but I know there are some lurking about. Is this statement correct? My brain tells me the weight is pulling against the cleat at the top and that if it's only attached with screws that this may not be safe. Can anyone confirm the physics?
PS - I hope they're not sheetrock screws ;)
The rotational force of the loads on the shelves is all going to the "truss" cleats. I hope they are securely fastened - and as you say, not with drywall screws.Frosty
I am an engineer and the mechanics look very sound to me. The vertical loads are supported directly by the floor through the vertical frame. The load on the wall is minimal. The cleats which are fastened to the ceiling prevent the system from rotating away from the wall, and the forces on those cleats should be a fraction of the weight of the lumber.My only concern would be the strength of the joint between the pipes and the vertical frame. You don't want long pipes.Tom.
I appreciate ALL the comments. Believe it or not, I AM a very safety conscience person. Shop dog lays around everywhere in the shop, 'cept when I chase him out before I run the power equipment, and I wouldn't want to see anything happen to him.
The length of the exposed portion of the pipe is 13". I'm not a 'mechanical' engineer, so without testing, it's the maximum cantilever length I felt comfortable with. Also, NO, I don't have 'sheet rock' screws in the cleats. They are #10 X 4" pan head deck screws (for lack of a better description). I suppose you'd still be critical of these fasteners, but the reality is these screws would have to shear off to have a failure, and I don't see anywhere near enough of a load for that to be an issue. In the future, I may add some blocking between the vertical supports to add some insurance against any rotation in the vertical supports along the vertical axis, but they are fastened to the wall studs, so it's not a high priority.
The only caveat here (that I consider) is that you wouldn't want too much lateral movement on the shelves. Loading and unloading of material shouldn't present any lateral movement given proper technique. The only other possibility is an earthquake, and in this part of the world, that IS a possibility. Given recent history, that's a statistically remote possibility. I figure if that happens, it's bad karma on my part....;-)
“… The vertical loads are supported directly by the floor through the vertical frame….”<!----><!----><!---->
Tom,<!----><!---->
I still don't get it but I'd like to understand. When I hang a pen off the side of a table the force on the table end of the pen appears to pull up and away from the table. The further the pen hangs off the edge the greater the force.<!----><!---->
The 2x4's in this rack are flat against the wall which means that only about 1.5" of pipe is being held by the 2x4 at most. This would appear to place a good deal of upward and outward force on the wall end of the pipe. I would think that the longer the pipe, and the higher up on the rack lumber is stored, the greater the force would be on the truss cleat attached to the ceiling. Can you please school me as to how the weight of the wood on the end of the pipe ends up being transferred straight down through the 2x4 to the floor?
Mike, hold on a sec there pard. The 2" X 4" are on EDGE, not flat against the wall. The holes for the pipe's are about 3" deep. There's no way that 1.5" of hole depth would be enough to support the weight IMO. I don't know why you thought they were lying flat against the wall, the pics clearly show them on edge...Regards,Jeff
:P Oh heck, sure enough. By looking closer I can see that now. This gives me ALOT more confidence in how much of the weight is being supported by the 2x4's. When it comes to stuff like lumber racks I'd probably be guilty of overkill but I'd rather not be killed under one either. Apologies for my confusion.
No problem. I'm enjoying the dialog. I will admit, I considered the pros and cons of this approach for a long time before building it. After lag bolting the heaviest brackets I could buy to the wall studs and being very disappointed in that approach, I finally committed to this approach. I couldn't put 1/5 the lumber on that shelf bracket system that I have on the system I'm using now. I can tell you, compared to the steel shelf brackets (3/16 welded steel), this is a MUCH sturdier rack. I have complete confidence in it, after all, I don't want to get killed either...;-)
Hi, Mike,
Your perception about the effect of the pipe on the vertical frame is correct. The orientation of the 2x4 is important. As to "schooling", I will give it my best effort.
There are two types of loads created by the weight of the lumber on the pipes: forces and moments (force times moment arm) The force in this case is the weight of the lumber and it is supported by the floor through the frame. The bending moment is created by the lumber center of gravity being offset from the frame. The frame withstands this moment throught the wall pushing against the frame at the bottom, and the cleat restraining the frame at the top. The distance between these two support points is much greater than the offset of the lumber from the frame. Because of that, the support forces are less than the lumber weight. For that reason, the cleats should easily hold the rack securely.
I hope this helps.
Best regards, Tom.
Tom,
Thanks for the explanation. It helps. If I'm understanding correctly then I think the following statements are true?
The thicker and taller the wall supports
the lower the lumber is on the rack
the closer the lumber to the supports (the shorter the pipes)
and the stronger the top cleat
then the stronger this would be?
As an extreme example, if additional 2x4's ran along the ceiling between the top cleat and the adjacent wall this rack design would be VERY strong?
This rack, if you filled it solid with maple would have roughly 140-cuft of wood, with a weight of about 4750-lbs supported. That load is carried by the five 2X4s, which are each carrying about 950 lbs. So the load at the bottom is the 950-lbs
The pipes that hold the wood are 14-inches long from the face of the wood. Lets make the most severe of simplifying assumptions that the wood is stacked so the center of it's mass is at 12-inches or 1-foot from the 2X4s, so the center of the load is out 1-foot from the 2X4s. The moment is the product of the radius and the force. So 1-foot X 950-lbs results in a moment of 950-ft.lbs.
Now lets examine the load at the cleat. It isn't supporting any of the vertical load. All it has to do is resist the moment, and keep the standard vertical. If the 2X4s are 8-ft long, the dividing the 950-ft.lbs by the 8-ft gives 118.75-lbs, so call it 120-lbs. So each cleat needs to carry 120-lbs in a horizontal direction along the ceiling. Since a number 10 screw will hold over 3000-lbs in shear, attaching the cleats to the ceiling joists with two number 10 screws per joist is more than sufficient to hold all the load from the lumber racks.
I have attached a "free body diagram" of what is happening.
I hope this makes things clearer.
(Before someone chimes in and tells me that torque is express as lbs.inch. I know that. I'm not sure that whoever made the decision to go to that convention was qualified to make the decision. Moment (aka torque) is a vector product found by the cross product of the radius vector and the force vector, and in vector arithmetic the order does matter, rXf does not equal fXr. Where as, work is a scalar product found through multiplication. a x b = b x a, thence the order doesn't matter when you are finding the amount of work done. I have made a conscious decision to do it "wrong". I am going to keep the order matching on the one that it matters for.)
Hey, Tom, your reassurances are comforting. Have to say, though, I might have slept better the first few nights after my lumber rack went up had you been around then to offer an opinion! ROFL!!
For "All": Just to clarify, mine had limited fastening to the wall due to the fact that the wall is kinda odd. Here are my pics and notes. Credit to Tom (tms) for the cleat at the top idea! Note that on mine, it's fastened to the roof joists with brackets, quite strong.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/14/2007 11:42 am by forestgirl
Were you sleeping under the rack?
Tom.
ROFL!! No, I wasn't that enamored of the project. I can see through the back windows of the house to/through the shop window, and you can bet every time I passed by, I looked to see if the rack was still attached to the wall!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jeff and All, here is mine for interest. Same principle except that it is all 2x4's and more of them because there is more timber to be stored- each upright is spaced 750mm from the next and bolted at the top. The horizontals are through mortised and wedged-also they are very slightly off horizontal. I found it to be quick, easy, effective and reasonably cost effective under the circumstances.It's a question of moments so obviously the horizontals should not be too long....
Thanks Philip. That's a beautiful system. I'd rather of gone with all lumber myself, but frankly the steel pipes were much easier and faster. Also, point of clarification, similar to your design, I drilled the bores for the pipes on a 5 degree angle to angle the (pipe) supports up (85 degrees between vertical support and horizontal pipe), forcing the material to slide toward the wall (if it slides at all). This was also to anticipate any deformation of the pipe when the load was applied. In use I do NOT see any deformation at all with the weight I have applied, somewhat to my surprise. Also many thanks to all the comments made by everyone, and I'm grateful for the mechanical engineering comments and explanations....Jeff
Edited 5/14/2007 4:48 am by jeff100
I'm also grateful for the explanations and mathematical calculations of the forces at play. Thanks to Tom and Jigs for those. Was 950 lbs per 2x4 a suggested maximum per 2x4, Jigs? About how much weight can you count on each 2x4 holding in this configuration?<!----><!----><!---->
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Thank you Jeff for sharing your excitement and photos and to Philip for the photos of your lumber racks. Great pile of lumber on them too ;)
The 950 lbs is just a reflection of how much I would reasonably expect to be able to get on the shelves, if they were filled solid with maple.
The 2x4 will hold quite a bit more in compression. The drilled joints are a little troublesome, and analyzing them would take a little more time. Like Forest Girl said, the concern is more about side loading blowing one out, than them twisting out under load.
I am following this thread with interest. Any tips on how to best build some free standing shelves to use for horizontal wood storage? (rather than something attached to the wall). I had some metal industrial shelving units in a previous garage, with plywood, that I never put together and had gotten rid of before I even thought of starting woodworking. I suppose a 2x4 frame+slats with some plywood shelves should be sturdy and easier to match to a specific size, and using bolts to attach it all...
I'm considering something similar, constructed of plywood, to stand about two feet from the wall, to allow sheet good storage behind it.
My basic thought is 3/4-plywood, ripped into 5-1/2-in strips, and then glued-n- screwed into a composite piece 3 layers thick, with the standoffs or brackets glued and screwed in as part of the middle layer.
In my view, the part everyone is missing is the joint between the pipes and the studs. Those 2x4's have to react a moment as well. Depending on the hole quality and whatever wear they see, that's where I would look for the failure.
Just using Jigs numbers, lets say 1000lbs per stud, 5 pipes (shelves) , 200lbs per pipe. If the load is say 10 inches away from the studs, that's a 2000inch-pound moment. That moment must be reacted inside the 2x4 which is only 3-1/2" wide at best. So the couple is 2000/3.5=570lbs. So the compressive/bearing stress is 570 x pi(d)/2 x thickness. The problem is that thickness. If we assumed 1" of bearing (thickness), and a 7/8" pipe, the bearing stress would be approx 800 psi. If the hole became sloppy, the pipes would droop and the stress would go up. 1/2" of bearing would be 1600psi. A 1/4" would be 3200psi. That's about what those studs are good for.
So what I would recommend is make sure those pipes fit tightly into the holes. If they don't, I would recommend epoxy in that joint. Besides that, I would limit access and not work under it, with my back to it for example. There are reasons why home depot doesn't use this design.
Adam
Forestgirl,
What type 2X4s did you use? Run of the rack Home Desperate 2X4s or from some other source. IMO the structural strength of Home D and Blowes lumber is only one or two steps removed from good cardboard.You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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I think I probably got them from Lumbermen's, which is a chain here in WA State, maybe Oregon?? They're not that soft "white wood" junk, but they're not vertical grain fir either, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What a coincidence FG, mine came from Lumbermans also. I refuse to buy wood from the Big Box Stores anymore, their quality is crap. Standard and better is the grade to be specific and I went thru about a half a sling to get 5 10 footers I liked. I'm not clear on why 1" bearing surface was indicated in the previous post when the holes are approx 2-3/4" deep, but I can appreciate the point about relationship of hole size in the stud to OD of the pipe, the holes are a slip fit but not excessively loose. Going back and epoxying the pipes to the holes is not a bad idea at all, I may do that as access to the pipes becomes available during use. Once weight is applied initially, there's little to no movement of the pipes which would enlarge the hole size over time, so as a matter of practicality, this should not be a problem, but a shot of epoxy would still be good insurance!
Jeff
Edited 5/15/2007 3:20 pm by jeff100
I like Lumbermen's OK during the summertime, but during the winter, their stuff is sitting out in the rain, so it's pretty darned wet. Home Depot lumber sucks, for sure. The Lowe's over in East Bremerton seems to have better construction stuff, especially in the larger pieces. I'm going to try and build John White's "Newfanged Work Bench" soon, which is all out of 2x construction material. Went to Lowe's a few weeks ago and bought a bunch of 16' 2x4's, had them cut to 8' -- better grain orientation in the 16-footers. Got 3 2x10's. Might not have done so well on those, I think only one is staying flat. But all of it was better than what I've seen at HD.
Re: epoxy -- one of the advantages to that rack design is that you can change the pipes around if you want (more or less space between layers). Like you said, the pipes aren't moving around, so seems pretty stable.
I probably shouldn't tell you that after 3 years with that rack, I'm thinking about going vertical instead. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I started out storing my hardwood stock vertical, I'd rather go that way. I had problems with my wood bowing from standing against the wall. I think vertical is fine short term, but if it stands there long enough, gravity seems to take it's toll, so in the end, this rack seemed a better solution. I can guarentee the wood lays flat. Good luck if you do change, let us know how it works out.
Yeah, I'm not in a screaming hurry to epoxy the pipes in the holes. I doubt I will change the config much however, why would I? We'll see what happens.
ANYTHING seems better than HD or Lowes. You might have a decent one across the water, but it's a crap shoot with each one. I really prefer Dunns, but there isn't one near where I live now. No matter where you go these days, it's a challange buying decent lumber. I think you've got it right buying long stock and cutting it down. The crap they sell as stud length doesn't come in longer lengths....;-)
I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one to buy 16-footers and ask them to cut 'em down to 8' -- I didn't even get that "Women! Whadya do?!" look from the guy, LOL!
Awhile back, we were over in the University District for something and stopped by Dunn Lumber for fun -- had never been there. Actually found some halfway decent walnut at a good price, and a great Alder board. Finding decent Alder is becoming a problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I saw some alder on craigs list the other day, don't remember if it was planed, but it was a good price, about a buck a bf IIRC. I've got into the habit of surfing that place for material, it's a gold mine occasionally. Oops, shouldn't give away my tips, oh well...
I had put this in my other note but took it out, didn't want to offend ya, but whenever I ask the box stores to cut material, I get attitude. I wanted them to cut the pipes down, they just laughed at me & told me the sell em in shorter lengths. The had six in stock, I needed 30...I figger I just don't have the right look....if ya get my drift...;-)
"I wanted them to cut the pipes down, they just laughed at me & told me the sell em in shorter lengths." You have got to be kidding! Oh, man, that would tick me off. I wandered in about 15 minutes before closing and the guy I got was amazingly chipper, considering how late it was. He cut them to 15", no problem. I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd been a little mopey about it, but if he'd refused rudely, I'd have been tempted to lay one of those pipes between his eyes!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
...that would tick me off....Well, yeah, it does, but I've gotten used to it. My attractive wife used to get people to do just about anything she wanted...Just the way it is. But HD/Lowes could go pound salt, I wasn't gonna buy my pipe there after being treated like that. I ended up buying my pipe at McLendons. They only stock it in 21 foot lengths, so it HAD to be cut for me to haul it home in my pickup. They wanted $2.50/cut!! I grudgingly agreed, then as he was writing up the order, I said STOP, I'll come back tomorrow with my sawzall and cut it up myself in the parking lot. He looked at me, paused, then said well....then I won't charge you for the 2 cuts....and that's how it REALLY is 'in a mans world'....Jeff
I went to HomeDesperate and bought three joints of yellow coated steel gas pipe, and had them cut it into 2@5, 2@4 and 1@3 foot pieces and threaded the ends, for use as pipe clamps.
The guy told me there was an extra charge for more than two cut and threads. But, it was what I needed so I told him to go ahead. We get done and he starts writing it up, and can't figure out what the cut and thread charge is.
So, we wander up to the front counter and he looks in a book, and can't find it. He calls over another guy who looks through more books, still no price. I happen to notice that the manager is headed out the door. The two guys get a third guy who looks through the books again. He calls for the manager on the pa, and one of the other guys informs him that Jeff went to lunch. He then calls three other stores to see if anyone has a price. A fourth guy comes in, again looks through the books, and can't find anything. Then they decide that I will need to wait for the manager to get back so he can decide on a price. I told them that I needed to look for some things in the tools, and I'd be back in a bit. I go over to tools, and look around for a while, buy a couple things that are on sale, and go back to the counter. Still no Jeff, so I wander back and look at the offcuts pile by the saws. Find a couple pieces of the 1/4-inch MDF with white vinyl on one side, that I like for jigs, and carry it back to the front.
Jeff gets back from lunch, but the guys who were helping me have all disappeared. So, I walk over and tell him I have a problem I need his help with. When I explain that I've been waiting an hour for him to get back from lunch to decide how much to charge me for cutting and threading pipe, he stands there dumbfounded for a minute, and tells me to just take the pipe and leave.
Not sure what went on after that, but next time I went in there was a price prominently displayed in the plumbing isle next to the cutting and threading machine.
I figure that even though it was a real pain to have to wait that long, I did get about $100 worth of pipe for an hours wait, so it was probably worth it.
At my age....that's a fraction of the cost that I value my time at. Getting jerked around by idiots for an hour, I would have been in melt down. I've had the same thing happen trying to use those @#$%^@# self checkout machines. I get my card number punched in then the machine 'locks up' and I can't leave because my card is 'at risk', and none of the morons they employ can figure out what the problem is. It's a miracle these businesess can stay in business the way they treat people. I've even noticed lately they no longer stock many of the typical selections of hardware/tools/materials/etc. you'd normally find. It's getting ridiculous and I sincerely hope they gradually find themselves out of business. This is an opportunity for a business savvy group with some capital to come in and take over. All it would take is some decent customer service and decent selection at reasonable prices. Any venture capitalist out there doing woodworking?? Take note!!
I'll get off my box now...
Jeff
Hi forestgirl,
I'm still in the process of organizing my shop and am in need of a quality lumber storage system. I too am thinking that it would be easier to pick through the boards if I had a vertical system, as they have in a normal indoor hardwood lumber yard, especially seeing all the lumber stacked on the racks in this thread. What a night mare, when looking for the right pieces for a project, to have to stack and re-stack lumber when it's laid flat. The only advantages I can see to stacking horizontal is that the boards may stay flatter. I live in a very dry climate and my shop walls are ten foot high. I also built my shop with no windows(plenty of skylights though) to maximize my storage space, so it may be more practical for me to go vertical. Anyone else have an opinion on this I would love to hear it, before I make any final decisions on how to proceed.
Thanks,
Man in Brown
"Like Forest Girl said, the concern is more about side loading blowing one out, than them twisting out under load"
I've been following this thread with interest 'cause I'm setting up a small shop and will need to put in a lumber rack. I was going to just do it with heavy duty brackets but I knew the load on the wall might be a problem. Many thanks to forestgirl for this design and everyone else's contributions...I'm going to use it. Question: Any reason why no one is suggesting using 4x4 posts for the vertical supports bolted/screwed to the studs? Wouldn't that pretty much take care of the horizontal blow-out potential?
Can't speak for anyone else, but I thought about 4X4 but I'm too cheap. I figured if ForestGirl hadn't had a problem after a few years it was working well, I'd go with the 2 by 4's. Since it's primarily a static load, not a live load, side blowout really shouldn't be a problem, but if 4X4's help ya sleep better, go for it...Keeping the load off the wall is the real beauty of this setup IMO...
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