Which is more versatile?
Lie-Nielson Skew Low-angle Block Plane
or
Lie-Nielson Low-angle Adjustable Mouth Block Plane
Which would get more use in a shop with only a handful of quality hand planes? For example, so far, I only have a Stanley-Bailey #5 Jack Plane (circa. 1965).
The major differences I see in these two planes are:
Skew Pros:
- Can be used as a rabbetting plane
- Better for difficult end-grain
Skew Cons:
- Sharpening the skew is more difficult
- Rabbets are easier in one direction than the other, due to the direction of the skew.
Adjustable Pros:
Are there other considerations?
Any real cons to the skew?
Any jobs the square bladed adjustable can do that a skewed cannot?
Which would you rather have in your shop? and, ultimately, assuming I can’t have both, and I can’t have both the left AND right-handed versions of the skew plane, which should I buy?
Replies
What do you want to use a block plane for? That pretty much determines which to get.
That said, if I only could have one, it would be the adjustable block plane. It can be used on a wider variety of typical work. For rebating, get yourself a Stanley #78 or a wood moving fillister.
Mike
Interesting. Could you provide some examples of tasks you would want to do with the adjustable, but would not want to do with the skew?
If I can throw a curve into this discussion, would you get the LN L-A adjustable mouth, or the LN L-A block plane (the little one)? And why?
Thanks--Erik
GettinTher,
I have both, and the adjustable mouth plane gets by far the most use - probably 95%.
cliff
The little plane that can do it all- I sometimes think it's the single best tool in my shop.
I used it last night and again this morning to flush trim some inlay- I smile every time the shavings ribbon-up and float to the floor
Dave
Quite simply put, the skew block plane is used principally for cross grain work. It excells in trimming tenons. It can be used for raising panels as well. But it is not a good user on face or end grain.
A standard block plane (regardless of mouth adjustability) is the tool of choice for face and end grain.
So these two block planes complement each other, but should not be seen to be alternatives to each other.
Incidentally, I have both of the LN blocks (#60 1/2 LA Adjustable and a standard angle #103). The #103 is by far my favourite plane I own. It is not the best performer, but it is good enough for most things and, therefore, so handy to grab.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
You said that you like the LN Standard Block plane because it is so versatile. How about the #60 1/2R rabbet block plane? I can see using it for tweaking tenons, besides the other jobs common to a block plane. Does the fact that it is a rabbet plane detract in any way from doing the other tasks?I have been using that little block plane that I made in a one-day "course", and it works nicely, but it is time to get a few LNs.As I wean myself from my old "Norm" ways, and try to become a bit more of a Neanderthal, I have been cutting dovetails by hand, but haven't yet tried to take a raw board and plane it down to size for use. I am guessing that if I were to get three or four planes, they would be a block plane, a #4, a jack plane and a scrub plane? Is that about right? Is there a book or a tape that you'd recommend on using handplanes to go from rough to ready?
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619,
I would recommend that if you want a book about planes and uses, get Garrett Hacks book titles "The Handplane Book". Everything you'll ever want to know.
Hi Mel
The only reason I did not mention the rabbet block plane is because I have not used it. I like the concept, however, and I would buy one before the skew for tenons as it would be more versatile. The fact is that tenons will cope with a little tearout quite happily - they do not need to be super smooth from a skewed blade.
I am guessing that if I were to get three or four planes, they would be a block plane, a #4, a jack plane and a scrub plane?
I would skip the scrub at this stage, get an extra blade for the jack that can be cambered more radically, and use that as a scrub-fore plane. Then your fourth plane could be a jointer.
Is there a book or a tape that you'd recommend on using handplanes to go from rough to ready?
The DVD that immediately springs to mind is Rob Cosman's "Rough to Ready". For free (!!!), however, you can read my review of the LV Scrub plane as this is also a pictorial on the whole process of levelling and thicknessing by hand plane.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVScrubPlane/index.asp
Of course, you may want a scrub plane then! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thank you for your sage and rapid advice. I have printed out your article on the Lee Valley Scrub plane and will read it today. I will probably get the Cosman CD and Garrett Hack's book. I have an jack plane and a smoother from Sears (ca 1968). I have "tuned" them up (flattened the soles, sharpened them, etc,. I will give them a try prior to laying out the big bucks for the LNs. It should be a fun adventure. Thanks for your help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I agree that a jointer is more useful at this stage than a scrub plane. Before you tackle rough-to-ready with hand planes, though, you might consider what I'm doing as a learning & transitional step: from S2S to ready. By doing this I'm working on my hand planing skills to get boards absolutely flat and square, dealing with cupping, warping, etc., plus jointing the edges. I figure once my skills there are good, I'll be patient enough to tackle the really rough stuff without too much frustration.Also, as I'm sure you know, eBay can be a great source for pre–WWII Stanleys, and there are some terrific mom-and-pop dealers out there. I got a really nice jointer from Walt at Brass City Records & Old Tools in Waterbury, Ct., recently, and he's also given me some good advice on buying old tools. Check out his Web site at http://www.brasscityrecords.com/51.html and drop him an e-mail describing what you're looking for. His prices are great, and he flattens the planes and sharpens their blades before sending them to you. I have no connection with him, except as a satisfied buyer of that jointer. Good luck,
Norman
Norman,
Excellent Idea!!!
I will try your approach both as to task, and to buying tools.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Derek,
Your post prompts me to issue a word of thanks too, for the many, many useful reviews and articles of yours that I have read and used on my path to handtool use. The fact that you do this out of a love for the whole thang speaks volumes to me and I thank you very, very much for all that virtual help.
(As I do all Knotters, who also give freely of their knowledge).
For some reason I take agin' those DVDs that show a few minutes technique for rather too much money - especially when it is a sales vehicle for one tool brand. I know, I know; you can say the same about a book - except that one seems to get a whole lot more information out of the average book for far less money.
Also, I feel I am paying for the convenience of the paper reference item, with a book. With a DVD, for some reason, I feel I am paying for information. I feel the same way about the DVD men as I do about rock stars - overpaid for a tiny bit of a currently popular performance.
Personally I think all information should be free - like yours. If I knew more, I would publish a free video on the web which shows all those techniques that the DVD purveyors show. Of course, I would need to learn it all without ever watching their performances or I would be accused of plagiarism.
Perhaps the DVD men should be sued by the the descendants of Egyptians, Romans and the many, many cabinetmakers of past times who actually invented the techniques?
Ah well, the market rules I suppose. If people are willing to pay several hundred dollars for a few hours of common-knowledge how-to, which is also an advertising vehicle..................
Lataxe, the mad red dangerous commie bloke.
Lataxe,
Your rant reminded me of an episode from, I believe, Michener's "Chesapeake", wherein a greenhorn sailor grounded his sailboat on a sandbar at ebbing tide, and was offered release for $50 by an old salty crabber. On handing over the 50, he was told to shinny up the mast, and fasten a rope to its tip, then throw the end to the rescue boat. A gentle pull tipped the boat over enough to release the keel, and the boat was free in just a few seconds. "Mister, don't you think fifty bucks is a little steep for just a couple minutes work, most of which I did?" "Well, young feller, I only charged you $5 for the doin'---the rest was for the knowin'. "
Ray
Ray,
Them salty dogs are good at the cash extraction but for them it may just be an occasional entertainment. We should all be pleased to watch from the shore and learn a bit. The we may buy a crab or two for supper and the salty one will have had a very good day. Crab tart - Mmmmmmmm!
When there are stars and celebrities in woodworking I find my lip curls, though but. Why is this? Perhaps I was abused by a salty dog once - I forget. :-) I hope, nevertheless, that them stars do not get carried away and kill themselves by eating a surfeit of burgers or indulging in illicit substances, whilst the hangers-on stand by saying "Yes"; "You're Great" or "Anything you want, man"!
Perhaps there is a need for a change of attitude on my part. I will go out now and practice conning old ladies out of their life savings. This will get me in the mood to try a similar trick on the apprentice, who has been learning for nowt and also getting free wood. (You know, I might be getting exploited myself - perhaps even now he plans to condense his free learning into an instructional DVD: part 1 only $17.99; parts 2 - 47 coming soon).
Hang on, though: I see a dark angel of vengeance approaching. It has a little book under its arm - "The Water Babies" by Charles Kingsley. Also it is making a tutting noise and shaking its head at me. Or am I imagining it? Whatever, I will try to be good, as usual (sometimes works, sometimes not).
Lataxe, who prefers not to exploit gullible folk despite never having been to church, not even christened.
Lataxe,
And yet, it seems to me that for a while now, the way to a comfortable income is to create once, then sell over and over; prints, films, records, cds.
But I'm likely wrong, you're correct, I'm with you, you're the man, etc, etc.
Ray, pres of the Lataxe fan club
Hey Ray,
With that instructional DVD coming out and everything, sounds like you may need a treasurer to count all that cash. Since you are the President Of the Lataxe Fan Club (note the caps to designate the officialness of the title) I would be just the person to help out. Please send all cash to my home address, and I will count it and sent it to Lataxe and yourself for all of your hard work. I am sure the two of you would like me to keep some of it myself, but that would not be right as I have taken a vow of good naturednesss.
Thanks,
Lee
Lee,
Don't count those big bucks yet, you good natured fellow.
Mel will likely hack that CD, and disseminate all its info for free via napster. We'll be in the same boat as Brittney, Sting, et al, who are nowadays only able to generate income by performing, not selling their work in the record stores (remember those?) as they used to. No, by golly, we're expected to go to the Guild meetings and give 'em the performance, too.
Guess we might as well make membership in the Lataxe Fan Club free, too. Dues will only cover the costs of sending out the newsletter/fanzine over the internet. $499.99/yr should cover it. Send it to me, now. I'll let you know when to expect the first issue...
Ray
Lee, Ray, Mel and Other Groupies,
If you could see my very large feet of clay you would not want me so and your nether regions would not be so damp with anticipation. Also I cannot stand being liked as it makes me go pink so then I must hide, not my desired state. Also,I become unpleasant,to put you offand then all returns to normal.
Anyway, those DVD men may become envious of your adorations and dig up unsavoury facts about my past, or even my present, with which to shatter your illusions. (It would be easy to find the unsavouries).
I like the idea of the DVD men being forced to perform their skills nightly on a stage before us all. We will see the clever stuff first hand but also have the opportunity to hiss and boo, should they fail our high expectations. On good nights we may get to throw a ripe tomato; or a lettuce containing caterpillers. In all events, they will have to work for our hard-earned dosh (it IS hard picking up the pension, of course it is).
Mel likes the videos, possibly because he has many kinds that educate on subjects even more exciting than dovetailing or carving a B&C. However, I like courses and have paid near £900 for me and the ladywife to have one-to-two for a week with an expert chair maker. This was not so bad, as we milked him of every drop of his wisdom, played in his shed for a week, ate all his biscuits and soup then got to take the two chairs home (retail £260 each) that we made. There were no certificates, just the ability to make chairs from logs, very well indeed.
Of course, when I was at work (spit) I attended many of the courses of the type that Mel mentions. There was less effort to teach and more an effort to go through motions until a certificate and pass could be issued (£1600, thenk you). The courses were laughably easy (lowest common demoninator) and the "exam" was a multiple choice (4 possible answers) with a pass being given for (you guessed it) a 25% or greater mark. Naturally, each course was "inadequate without the other 7 in the series, sir".
The worse aspect of some of these DVDs is that the purveyor is working to promote tools from a particular vendor or manufacturer. Why does that manufacturer not provide the information about how their tools should be used as part of the deal? It's called "the manual".
Lataxe the pinko lilly liver.
This discussion reminds me of the A. Lincoln quote,..." A lawyers time and talent are his stock in trade..." The price of the time is in theory determined by the talent of the lawyer and the same ought to be said of any other learned activities, be it woodworking, computer programing etc. The problem is that the market place has been skewed because 'buzz' and hype are confused for real talent. Lataxe was willing to pay 900 quad for a course by someone that knew what they were doing and had real talent, but not willing to buy a video DVD etc. where the talent was not present. Selling knowledge is not the problem, it is selling hype and pretending it is knowledge.
Now that I have compared you all to lawyers, I await the verbal slings and arrows to come.
Dan Carroll
Reverend Lataxe,
Your rant was a joy to my overly seasoned heart.
All woodworking info should be free.
I have said that many times. I come from the old school of the original computer geeks who believed that all software is free and should remain so. We used the term "hack" to refer to a really interesting and creative piece of computer code that solved a problem. We passed our hacks around. We were proud of them. We would be insulted if anyone talked about selling them for money. There is something more important than money - PRIDE. Pride in one's self-discipline and in one's own ability to learn how to do things, to do them, and then to pass on the new knowledge. In previous Knots posts, at the Washington Woodworkers Guild and other places, I have pushed for training to be free. It is our duty as woodworkers to pass on the knowledge and wisdom, and to think of that as a privilege as well as a right and a duty. You wouldn't believe the number of people who don't like my way of thinking. There is a local chairmaking class for $1200. There are lots of classes for more than a grand a week. It blows my mind that anyone would even consider for a moment, taking such a class.I have delved further into the psychological motivations of people who are addicted to these high-cost training programs. The answer, IMHO, is that these folks are not addicted to the "learning" but to the thrill of spending a week with a big-name woodworker. I know of one specific school which gives you a certificate after you have taken ten of their classes, and they have a lot more ready so that you can get another certificate. Besides the big ticket woodworking classes, there are the $100 classes in which someone shows you how to sharpen a chisel or to use a dovetail saw. These classes abound. Why not just join a woodworking club and ask anyone in the club to show you? Most people I know would be happy to show you such skills for free.There is a man named Ivan Illitch who wrote a book called "Deschooling Society". It is one of my favorite books. He, like you, used to be a minister. His main topic is that Teachers and Schools teach us that we can't possibly learn anything unless we go to a Teacher in a School. He feels, like I do, that the proper role of a teacher and a school is to teach a student to learn for themselves -- to free them from the need for a teacher or a school.It is possible (and good) for us to disagree on some things. I think that books and CDs and tapes on woodworking skills are good things. I tend to watch them, not buy them. I have watched many, and have learned a lot. My favorite for sheer bravado is Frank Klaus's tape on how to cut dovetails. He's quite a guy. For quality, I like Rob Cosman's CDs. I'd like to see him take his three dovetail CDs and put them on a single CD for $25. However, one cannot find someone to teach them how to cut dovetails (for free), his three CDs at a total cost of $75 are, IMHO, a bargain. You can take a local class on how to cut dovetails for $100 to $200, and learn a lot less than you can for $75 from Cosman's CDs. So I am a fan of having a plethora of CDs for woodworking training, but I am a fan of having a club buy the CDs so that all of the members can use them for free (well almost for free).The problem with rants is that they generate other rants. I loved yours, but it triggered mine. I feel better now, even if no one reads it. I don't write these things for other people to read. I write 'em because I enjoy it, and because "the truth wants to get out".
:-)
Have fun. Keep up the great rants.
Rev. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have used and enjoyed Rob Cosman's video "Rough to Ready". Gave me a lot of help and confidence to switch to hand planes for flat, truing and square. I just prepped 4 mahogany legs 2.5X2.5X37 and the aprons for a dining table 3X6/4X78. The DVDs are available from L-N or Woodcraft or ToolsforWorkingWood. What I like about the hand-plane process, other than the quiet and cleanliness, is that I can work with pieces of wood that I would have trouble handling alone through my jointer and are too wide for the planer. (These two tools were sold off last fall.
Edited 7/24/2007 3:15 pm ET by dherzig
Thank you. I will get Rob Cosman's video.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Derek,Not that I doubt you, but I'm puzzled by the statement that a skew plane would not be good for end grain.I always thought that the reason a low angle block plane was good for end grain was that the low angle allowed you to make a clean cut with that board orientation. You can get a low angle by getting a low angle plane. But another way of getting an effectively lower angle is to skew the blade to the direction of the cut. So why wouldn't a skew block plane do well on end grain? I'm sure I'm missing something here.Wilbur
Hi Wilbur
The reason I say that the #140 is not my choice for end grain planing is because I find it more difficult to control in this situation. When used freehand it will pull to one side (it is a different matter when used on a shooting board). I should qualify that I am speaking of my Stanley #140 (but this is very well tuned and used with a thick LN blade). Across the grain it is a different matter, since here the #140 rules:
View Image
This, incidentally, is set up for a right-hander.
David, just for you, a few block planes (but, like you, I love these things and my collection ... uh .. selection has grown since that picture).
View Image
Stanley knucklejoint #65 (I also have the #18), LN LA #60 1/2, LN #103.
I am in the process of building a St James Bay kit that will (hopefully!) resemble this stunner of Brian Buckner:
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 7/25/2007 8:51 pm ET by derekcohen
I wonder if the fence makes the LN Skew easier to control on end grain than the Stanley?
Thanks for the input so far.
I was confused by some comments above saying the skew was no good for face or end grain. This seemed to conflict with an FWW article that suggested it could serve as a normal block plane, in addition to being a rabbet and filister plane.
Following someone's advice, I contacted LN. They responded quickly and courteously. What I understood from them was that it really isa matter of personal taste, and that users with a range of block planes would probably reach for the adjustable mouth more often. Even so, the skew could handle any jobs the adjustable could, except for fine finish work (due to the adjustable mouth). He then suggested that I could easily use my Bailey #5 for that. He was also clear to point out that if I didn't expect to do any rabbetting or didn't need the fence, then I may want to get the adjustable mouth.
Here is my interpretation of the input to this thread so far mixed with the feedback from LN.
It sounds like if I can only buy one block plane to pair with my Bailey #5 the answer is probably the skew or rabbet plane. They have limitations, but a broader range of uses.
However, if I plan on building a set of 4 or 5 soon, the better idea would be to go with the adjustable mouth LA block for now, and add a shoulder plane soon for rabbets, tenons, etc.
Sound about right?
Once again I agree on your two favourites (sp). I love the 103 even though it is made in England. I also own the LN block. Regrettably I tend to have block planes dejour in my shop and tend to like the old Millers Falls. But I have a couple of others tuned and ready to go just in case.
David from Cleveland, Ohio
My dear daughter gave me a LN Rabbit Block plane last year. What a handy tool. It has become a regular fixture on my bench, replacing a variety of block planes I've accumulated over the years. If you can have one and only one block plane, I don't think you can beat it for versatility.
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