Hammers… I am a fan of their tools but $85 for a tack hammer?
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Replies
I like 'dem boys but they really did put the 'dude' in 'dude woodworking.'
I have a tack hammer. It came from Sears. I think I paid $9.99 for it not so long ago. With it, I can hammer a tack.
I can't recall an incident whereby a tack looked up at me with consternation about being hammered with a Sears Special El Cheapo.
File it under: A Driven Tack Tells No Tales.
Edited 4/28/2009 6:52 am ET by BossCrunk
It's because you knocked the tack unconscious, Boss...otherwise it would have protested mightily...I know this because I use el cheapo tack hammer as well, but being a novice I frequently miss on the first and second attempt...makes knocking out the whining tack that much more pleasurable.
Neil
Woody, these Warrington pattern styles are usually made in 8,10,12 and 16 oz. sizes and a pin hammer at 3 1/2 oz. in the same style. These are all available in the UK for 6 to 11 pounds each from several makers so you could buy the whole set + S&H for the price of a LN.
Way back in the day I picked up a Crown 12oz. but the balance was terrible ,then later three Stanley-UK made- 8,10,12 and it was a world of difference so you really need to try before you buy. The LN looks to be 25 to 30 % taller and they don't say how heavy which will make big difference in how comfortable your use will be, but I am sure that LN is a lot smarter than moi. Paddy
Lie-Nielsen doesn't start making a new tool just for fun. If they're making it, it's because a lot of people have asked them to. Which means that they will sell.
See: http://blog.lostartpress.com/2008/12/19/When+All+Of+Your+Problems+Look+Like+Nails.aspx
-Steve
Steve,
Shameless shilling for that hammer! - well, unless it really is a sooper good one of course. :-)
Lataxe, not safe with hammers hisself.
David,Given your history of discussing your herd of handplanes, you shouldn't make statements like"Shameless shilling for that hammer!" The way I see it is as follows. LN makes planes in the Approx. $400 category and hammers in the approx. $100 category. You buy planes in the approx $2000 category, so for you, an appropriate amount to spend on a good hammer would be about $500. I will bet that you can easily find someone to produce that hammer for you at that price. I believe that the LN hammer is drastically underpriced, as are all of their planes. YOu should read the Chris Schwartz article that someone posted the webpage for (see an earlier message). Chris is definitely a "tool guy". He has over 20 hammers already and can't wait to get the Lie Nielsen. To criticize him for having so many hammers would be like criticizing Derek for having too many planes. It would be a silly thing to do. One can never have enough tools, as you already know. Heck, I saw a guy on Ebay, a few months ago, who tried to sell his collection of hand planes which numbered in the thousands. He was only asking $5000 for the entire set, and you had to come and pick them up at his place. He wasn't going to ship them. Stop to think, David, $85 is not much money. People spend that on Dinner. I have seen people spend far more than that on one tank of gas. One needs to have anchors like those facts to make appropriate and grounded judgements on the value of tools. Comparisons are very interesting. For example, the new LV block plane at about $300 costs about the same as four of the LN hammers. When you think of it like that, one can see how much of a bargain that the hammer is. Now about shilling. Don't you think that most people are shilling most of the time. I think it is a natural thing. It is little more than discussing one's biases. Shilling happens in all sorts of ways. Some of them are insidious. For example, I helped keep a thread with "Lie Nielsen" in the title for over 6000 posts and a number of years. Isn't that shilling? ((well maybe it isn't. LN didn't give me any free plans or anything. Really, all I wanted was a set of their temporary tatoos. :-)Go easy on saying other people are shilling. We don't want to start threads in which people start saying things about the pot and the kettle. Have fun.
MelPS - if anyone reads this post and takes it too seriously, they would be misreading me. Think of it as a modern version of Jabberwocky.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Derek should never be criticized for having too many planes. That's preposterous and an outrage. Now chisels, that's another story... :) Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
I like your attitude. :-)Krenov has an early chapter in Taunton's Working with Handplanes. I just reread it. You gotta like the guy. He focuses not on the tools but on using the tools to get to the endproduct. He said that some people become too obsessive about sharpening or the angles of the plane, etc. Focussing on those details takes you away from "achieving a balance" and focussing on what you are trying to do. Krenov made his own planes, and he used them to make really nice furniture. To me, worrying about $85 hammers and $300 block planes is the what Krenov was warning against. Unfortunately too many folks here on Knots seem to get their jollies about arguing endlessly about such things. Have fun. Collect those chisels.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,It seems to me Krenov saying that people obsess to much about tools is a little odd considering he's known for making his own hand planes. Someone not obsessed would just grab the first hand plane they could fine, sharpen it and go to work.Buster
Buster,You said, "It seems to me Krenov saying that people obsess to much about tools is a little odd considering he's known for making his own hand planes. Someone not obsessed would just grab the first hand plane they could fine, sharpen it and go to work."You really should read the article. He used to make his wood planes when he didn't have any commissions to do. He did it to pass time. Then he found that the ones he was making were easier to use then the store-bought planes which have totes. He began fashioning them to be able to hold easily in many different ways. Was he obsessive about them? If you saw any of the photos, you wouldn't think so. I heard someone once mention that that one of his planes looked like it had been chewed out of a tree by a drunken beaver. Krenov is quite a deep thinker. The more I learn about him, the more impressed that I am. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have to agree that Krenov is a deep thinker.I have a semi-pro woodworking friend. Last time I was in his shop he was making some router planes (I believe he saw them in David Fincks book). He claimed he NEEDED them for his current job... Strangely he was using stock blades from the Veritas small router plane. The guys owns the Veritas, Lie Nielsen, and Stanley models of the router planes as well as the Veritas and Lie Nielsen small router planes...The guy is very talented, and knows how to use his tools. He is a woodworker to the core... but he is an obsessed tool collector in denial...
Buster,
Loved your last line: "The guy is very talented, and knows how to use his tools. He is a woodworker to the core... but he is an obsessed tool collector in denial..."There are lots of those folks here on Knots. My belief is that some of them are not even woodworkers, just collectors. There is nothing wrong with being a collector. To determine whether a person on Knots is more of a woodworker or a tool collector, one need only read a number of their posts. We have some folks here who really never talk about woodworking, just about details of tools. That is a collector.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
To determine whether a person on Knots is more of a woodworker or a tool collector, one need only read a number of their posts. We have some folks here who really never talk about woodworking, just about details of tools. That is a collector.
I don't know Mel. We all use tools. It seems to me that among woodworkers tools are the one constant. Design is subjective, skill varies, techniques are well covered. Without becoming too 'Soundong bowl fluffy' (See Woodwork Mag), it's difficult to have any lasting conversation on woodworking not involving tools.
On the original subject. I've seen the LN hammers. They're nice. I don't know if I'd buy it for myself, but if it were a gift I'd keep it. I don't know about the brass head, seems a little soft.
Ah Buster,I wasn't demeaning tools, just putting them in their proper place. They are "tools". That is why they are called "tools". Woodworkers USE tools. Collectors talk about them, and worship them and use them to make shavings, but not to make furniture. I wasn't saying that woodworkers NEVER talk about tools. I was merely saying that woodworkers FOCUS on the things they are making, not on the tools. It is like Food. Some people eat to live. Others live to eat. Some people live to use tools. Some live to play with them, talk about them, compare them, fettle them, etc, but rarely use them to make furniture.Nothing wrong with being a tool collector. And some people are both woodworkers and collectors. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with being a woodworker. As the old song says, "Everything is beautiful." Kumbaya. Let is all come together, down by the riverside.Hope I was understandable this time.
Have fun.
Mel the Ex HippieMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I picked up enough Coca-Cola bottles on the side the road to return for deposit and got $85 deposit back by doing so a few days ago. But... I opted to get a set of new HSS knives for my 20" planer in lieu of the hammer.
I hope I did the right thing but I suppose I will always have to question the call....
Sarge..
Edited 5/1/2009 4:20 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
How are you doing? Always good to hear from you. This hammer thing is merely a swiftly passing diversion. You handled that complaint about the planer very well. Good that you have good contacts. Sounds like the OP got a little rambunctious when he called in. I wonder if this crazy attitude that folks often show in retail started with the government putting flouride in the drinking water. :-) Thinking is a good thing. People ought to do more of it. It seems to me that shouting impedes thinking. Of course, there are times when I think that Knots impedes thinking. So I spend much of my day in the shop. I am making a child's glider chair for my 13 month old grandson. Not that he really needs a glider, but I have always thought of making a chair with a rounded back and other complexities. So I am learning a lot, -- including some new words ha ha. So far, so good.Have fun. Gotta go look for cans and bottles that I can cash in. I want a complete set of Festools. How many cans do I need to collect? Mel
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Have fun. Gotta go look for cans and bottles that I can cash in. I want a complete set of Festools. How many cans do I need to collect"?
Mel...
A bunch... times are hard and prices are high. I planted some tomato bushes today as I anticipate eating tomatoe sandwiches all summer... hold the bacon. All I need to do now is find my tin cup and go sell some pencils out front of an office building to buy some loaf bread. :>)
Being and staying in the shop is probably about the best thing that could happen to any of us. Life is good even when your diet consist of tomato sandwiches.. ha.. ha...
Sarge..
Hi Sarge,
There's just two things that money won't buy, that's true love, and home grown tomatoes.
Ray
You got that right, Ray. I moved to Florida in 1972 to work for Anehieser Busch in Tampa. You can forget home grown tomatoes in that sandy soil as the sand just doesn't have acid. But.. I became acquainted with a gentleman from Tennessee who retired from John Deere Tractor and he had a 1/2 acre garden.
My tomato "fix" came from him as he filled 55 gal drums with half Tennessee soil and 1/2 horse manure. Those drums turned out some of the finest tomatoes I have ever seen or tasted. My first wife agreed even though I didn't mention the horse manure. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 5/2/2009 9:50 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Amazing how a tomato plant can turn manure into goodness! I use the cow variety myself, only because it's what's available around me. I drop a shovelful of it into the hole the plant will go into, then drop in a handful of lime to prevent the dreaded blossom-end rot. Then a shovel ful of dirt that the plant goes into. When the roots hit that manure, you can see the plants jump!
Ray
I've seen some put fertilizer or manure in a brown paper sack and bury it under-neath. And you're right about what happens when the roots catch up to it... The limes neutralized some of the ground acid as it can be excessive down this way.
BTW.. I noticed you stated May 8 to Lataxe on frost free. I did mine Friday and should have done it last week-end but everyone was sold out of plants on Monday following the week-end.
"Maters".. vidalia onions and corn-bread... doesn't get any better than that. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
I got so tired of running around every year trying to find the plants I want I finally took some old, free windows and built a couple greenhouses 4' x 8' x 4' high. Can't stand in them, don't need to. Start from seed doesn't take any more time than searching for plants. All the nurseries around here sell way more flower plants than vegetable. Now I get what I want, when I want it.
Ray,
I will sell you a splendid bunch of home-grown tomatoes in a month or three, as long as I can sneak-off with them when the ladywife isn't looking. Since they will be The Best You Ever Had, they are $56.75 each (minimum purchase 1 dozen).
Lataxe, a greenhouse-raider.
PS If you send enough dollars I'm sure I will come to love you truly albeit from across the Atlantic.
PPS Would you like a Speshul Video of me making some DTs with a woodrat and a Dewalt 625? It is very exciting (if you are a router fetishist). No, I thought not. :-)
Edited 5/3/2009 5:48 am ET by Lataxe
Edited 5/3/2009 5:54 am ET by Lataxe
Ray,
Buy American! As my patriotic duty I will sell you American home grown tomatoes for only $55.00. And as an act of solidarity during these tough times we will forgive any min. requirements.These are grown in Maryland; one of the original thirteen colonies, which donated land for the Nation's Capital. And since I had no trouble growing anything in Florida, you know they'll be great. Now there's that fellow from the bottom of the world who claims to have the best tomatoes. I've seen hundreds of burger joints that say they have the best. And just because he does great woodwork don't mean he knows squat about tomatoes.
Dear friend,
How kind of you to offer me the fruits of your gardening labours! If, however those 'maters would make the trip across the sea intact, I'm afraid I'd be afeared to try and eat em.
Are British maters the same sorts as we grow over here? Beefsteaks, big boys, better girls, rutgers, fantastics, romas, mortgage lifters a few of my favorites. I generally end up with between 3 and 4 dozen plants, as we home can some, make spaghetti sauce, and salsa from the rest.
Ray, smacking his lips in anticipation, frost-free date for palnting tender crops is may 8th
SAREGE
My wife stayed with me... UNTIL.. Her little cat WAS goen. AND she saw a big old Diamondback rattler eating it. Fort Hood Texas at the time, About 1960 as I recall!..
AND YES WE DID the bottle thing to be able to eat the next day! Back then we lived on Beans and Sex! Way more SEX than Beens we had!
I for one loved the Army.. What do I know or told to do then.. Hell, at that time somebody WITH RANK told me to move a Tank Retriever without kiling anybody..
I PASSED THE TEST AND became a Recovery Mechanic!
I would BET the standards are a bit more differt these days.
Edited 5/2/2009 10:57 am by WillGeorge
Edited 5/2/2009 11:00 am by WillGeorge
The standards are probably quite different Will. Probably the pay also as an E-1 made around $89 a month in 1966. When I got out in 1969 as E5.. I was making $355 a month and that included $55 a month combat pay. I remember state-side when we would get paid one day of the month and we were usually broke the next day. :>)
Sarge..
Heck, Sarge, that's riches. If you were lucky enough to get called up for National Service in the UK, the pay was 30 shillings a week -- about 4 dollars at the time -- and you had to pay for your boot polish. I made the last roundup in c. 1960. They fined you for boots insufficiently shiny, hair not smartly combed, wrong facial expression, etc. I didn't have the dough to leave base for three weeks, and then they wouldn't let me go because they didn't approve of my civvies -- shoes too pointed, just like the corporal's head. But when you're that age it's all good for a laugh.
Jim
We had to pay for polish.. shave cream.. etc. as about the only thing they gave you was uniform and military equipment. $4 is really bad as you mentioned but we were young. The week-end after we got paid and were broke the next day.. we would go to town on week-end leave and sell a pint of blood for $5. A shame but if you needed anything until the next paycheck.. you did what you had to do.
Regards...
Sarge..
I remember getting $20 a pint for A-Neg while stationed in the Bay area in 1967 as an E-3. I think I was clearing about $80 per month after the deduction for uniform issue and the "voluntary" Savings Bond deduction. I also managed to improve my skills at 8-ball and stud poker! As you say. . .whatever it took.Regards,Ron
Mel,
I think were crossing messages here...
All I'm saying is that it's natural for us to discuss tools since its a common thread in our hobby/profession. It's like when I go out for lunch with my work team, in an effort to avoid discussing work conversation always turns to hockey... which is the only other thing we all have in common.
I think it's natural for most threads and posts to turn to tools... perhaps those that focus on tools are a step ahead, and are just responding to the eventual topic. just a thought...
Um... do you want to discuss the new Veritas extra large Spokeshave now?
Buster,Do I want to discuss the new large Veritas spokeshave? Well, I'd rather discuss woodworking projects. I am making a child's glider chair for my grandson. It is my first chair. I have done lots of rectangular furniture over the decades and lots of carving, and lots of bowls, but this is my first chair. It has a rounded back, and other complexities that make it interesting. It is not a "masterpiece", but it is letting me get a new set of experiences. I'll post photos if the darn thing actually works.I have used circle cutting jigs before, but this time I made one to use on a bandsaw that cut the rounded pieces for the back out of a built up chunk of oak that is about 4" by 5" by 15". No problem. I am amazed at how smooth the cuts came out. Then there was the problem of using dowels to join four rounded pieces together EXACTLY. You may ask, why dowels? I didn't feel like using biscuits. :-)I'd much rather hear about what other people are doing than what tools they are buying. But sometimes discussing tools is useful.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,My monday evening brain is having a hard time imagining what your doing to the back...I spent many hours on gliders after my kids were born. I've got to say, very good for babies, not so good on the eyes. I hope you can improve the look. I worry about the kids fingers around the base of the glider, the action can catch arms and finger pretty good.I've got a few projects going on. The main one is the bench for my front entrance, a place for the boys to put their mittens and tuques in the winter. Hats and ball gloves in the summer (a little young for ball gloves yet). The second is rescuing furniture my great grandfather built from my parents. None of it has any value outside the family... but some of it is classic... Buster
There is nothing more valuable than what is valuable to the family. Is there?
Buster,
thanks for the heads up on the glider for my grandson. I will keep a close eye. I never thought of that. As far as the looks go, I like em, and so does my wife, daughter and son in law. Freddy is very nonchalant about the matter. :-)The back of the chair is rounded. The curve can be described as a 15" diameter curve. The back is made of four pieces. The top and bottom piece are 14" long and about 4" wide as I remember. All pieces are about 3/4" thick. I made a block of wood that was 15" long, and about 4" by 5", by gluing up pieces of red oak. Then I made a circle jig with a 15" arm, and cut the curves out of the big glued-up piece. I did a similar thing to make the two stiles (vertical pieces) in which the grain is vertical. So it lookes like a curved frame with the top and bottom rails going all the way across, and the vertical stiles between them. I dowelled the entire thing together, and then, cut some fancy stuff on the band saw. I'll take photos when it is finished. Hard to describe. Krenov would look at my chair and laugh. Heck, you might too. But Freddy will like it. He likes everything if you give him food too. :-) Glad you have some furniture that your great grandfather made. That is a real treat. I have furniture from my mother's parents, but my grandfather didn't make it. All three of my children have some of the pieces, and treasure them. I have restored them to their 1920's condition. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The oddest item, was an old radio/record player cabinet. It still has the Victrola label on the lid... but no radio/record player. Apparently my grandmother ripped the innards out a long time ago, and used it as a liquor cabinet. The top opens up, which is where the original controls were and the front doors open, which is where speakers were... It's actually a nice cabinet, and in good shape. However the front was clearly set up for speakers, so there really isn't access from the front...
I assume its worthless as an antique... but interesting as a cabinet... if we can find something to do with it. I should see if I can retrofit it for my modern system...
Edited 5/5/2009 1:14 pm by Buster2000
Buster,
GO FOR IT. Make that Victrola that was made into a liquor cabinet into something else. The History of an old piece that has been in the family is always interesting and important. So play it up. Write it up and put it in a plastic envelop and put it in the Victrola so people will know the history in 200 years.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I think you're on the wrong page of the hymnal buddy. Tools are important. It doesn't make you a collector to be interested in or place value on tools. Hand tools especially. You're right that super users can make great stuff with bits of broken glass. But your cooking analogy is unconvincing. True you can make a great sauce by stirring with any old spoon. But top chefs and my wife have favorites. And some can tell you what they want in a spoon or pan or knife. We watch Alton Brown and there is no more tool oriented chef in the public eye than him. I saw him check a pan's heat with an infrared pyrometer a few nights ago (he was making omlets). You wouldn't call him a collector.There are tool collectors. I swear I'm not one. Really. No seriously. Just ignore those 400 center bits. Pretend they're not there. Yes, I use ALL of those saws. Each one of my hammers is different. They serve different purposes. Adam
closet tool collectorDon't "out" me.Okay, I think I'm drunk
Adam,
Glad you are a collector. Think of Jeckyl and Hyde. We are all part collectors and part woodworkers, except for the collectors who dont make furniture, and there are some of those. I know that as a writer you have made a point that was deeper than many of your readers were willing to go or capable of going. I never said or meant that tools are not important. That would be just plain stupid. (and really dumb too). I was making a simple point - at least I thought I was. I have noticed that when I meet with professionals, they talk about their projects, and almost never about tools, and when I get together with hobbyists, they almost always want to talk about tools, not projects. Personally, I would much rather talk about projects than tools. Watching professionals like Ray Pine, you can easily see that wonderful furniture can be made with a relatively small set of tools, most of which were made long before Tom Lie Nielsen and Leonard Lee were born. I look at the furniture of the the Goddards and the Townsends and I wonder why anyone would need an $8000 Holtey plane. To me, a great woodworker can go into the shop of another woodworker and use his tools, whatever they are, to make masterpieces. Tools are merely tools. If you are good, you have figured how how to substitute, how to make things work, how to be creative in solving problems with the tools at hand. THIS IS THE ATTITUDE THAT I HAVE TOWARD TOOLS. They are absolutely necessary, but they are only tools. The most interesting tool in the shop is the mind of the woodworker. I don't think I have gone too deep for you. You are an intellectual. You can see subtleties. By the way, my attitude toward tools is, I believe common among professionals, which I am not, but is not common here on Knots.When I read someone else's writing, I try to understand where they are coming from, and what their ideas and biases and values are. I want to know what the author is trying to say. I do not want to just read my own ideas into their words. Doing that buys me nothing. I think that some of the folks who responded to my words on tools were not trying to understand what I was trying to say, but rather were just reading their own ideas into my words. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel ,
It is odd Mel , Finewoodworking / handtool forum with posts pertaining to hand tools, Go figure.
When is Freddy's cousin due?
Tom.
Tom,
About tool discussion on Knots. I worked in pilot training technology for a long time. Pilots always talk about aircraft. BUT they tend to talk about the way the aircraft performs its job. They rarely talk about the design of pitot tubes in an of themselves -- only as they affect the performance of the aircraft in allowing them to go their jobs.People here on Knots often discuss tools as objects of inherent interest, regardless of their performance in getting jobs done. I find that to be intellectually dull. "Didja hear that LV came out with a $300 block plane?" I am not the least interested in the fact that LV did such a dumb thing. Now if someone showed how this new tool allowed me to do something that I want to do that I can't do with a $150 block plane, then it would be very useful.Do you see the difference between discussing tools just because they are there, and discussing what a tool can do for you on the job?Freddy's cousin is due in early July, or whenever she feels like showing up. I can't wait. Freddy is doing fine. I just spent two days with him, fixing up some old toys. A grandchild is a real joy. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Thanks for responding to my post , I am glad to hear Freddy is well and all is going well with his future cousin. When ever I here the name Freddy I have this visual of a little smile face boy in that bowl you carved , it makes me smile and that is a good thing, he is precious and you are blessed.
"I worked in pilot training technology for a long time. Pilots always talk about aircraft. BUT they tend to talk about the way the aircraft performs its job. They rarely talk about the design of pitot tubes in an of themselves -- only as they affect the performance of the aircraft in allowing them to go their jobs."
From this statement I do not see the difference between discussing tools just because they are there as opposed to what they can do for you. Heres why, Pilots IMO probably do converse about performance , as opposed to the mechanical aspects of the air craft which makes total sense to me. What dose not is your comparison of wood workin hobbyists to aircraft pilots, Pilots do not purchase their air craft much less do much work on it so why would they discuss the points you stated? On the other hand a private pilot who might be fortunate enough to own his aircraft probably do converse with one another about the physical makeup of the craft as opposed to just the performance end.
So you see Mel we all see things differently, dose this make you rite and me wrong? nope we just differ.
" Didja hear that LV came out with a $300 block plane?"
No I have not and I read a lot of posts, much more than I can possibly contribute in return by initiating my own ,( you guys have me covered I am just a carpenter no NASA background , No degrees -nuttin) What I do have is common sense and the ability to block out the 300$ block plane, I have a 480$ # eight that I purchased at Woodcraft along with a few others as well as tools of various sorts,( I wish I had your discount at the time).
"Now if someone showed how this new tool allowed me to do something that I want to do that I can't do with a $150 block plane, then it would be very useful"
This happens all the time in this forum , We see and here the discussions of this bailey and that Stanley all to often and that fine. I think most here are not apt to run out and make expensive purchases based on the Didja hear? babble. As for the newbys to this craft, if they read they shall learn.... No newby here, though I do learn much from you and the others here.
Respectfully, Tom.
Mel,
my feelings about tools are very similar to yours, but you say it better than I. Tools are neat. What impresses me is their use and the skill of making them. Not awed by a great gear collector, there are those in every skill, craft, discipline, sport, hobby etc. It's not what you have but what you do with it. Give me a $50,000.00 golf set and pick up a $50.00 one for Tiger woods at a thrift store and he will beat the #### outta me every time with one hand tied behind his back. Awhile back their was a thread about a guy who easily spent $100,000.00 on his shop. Looked great, then someone pointed out the only thing shown from his shop was a box for matches. Give a good woodworker $500.00 for tools and he will make you something to appreciate.
Here's a goofy 1:30 second movie I made while doing a routine activity in the shop - ya know, actually using tools!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/3496155520/
Hope to see you next weekend.
The sound makes it! Work looks good, but the sound brings out the drama, like a nice finish.
Found out we're going to see our nieces in a play in Leesburg Sat. afternoon. Besides that I'm open.
Hope you guys are feeling better.PeteEdited 5/3/2009 12:58 am ET by habilis
Edited 5/3/2009 1:01 am ET by habilis
Hi Sean
Fantastic!
Actually, the sweetest music is simply the sound of the tools themselves.
I notice that you drag the saw back when starting a rip for the dovetail. I must admit to doing them some of the time as well, usually when the teeth want to catch. Some argue that it wears the teeth more quickly. Can't say that I have noticed this - perhaps I have not used one saw long enough. I wonder what others think?
Video is a great medium to share technique .. but my hands are not as pretty as yours!
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
And I, like the master in the video, drags the saw back a bit to start. I thought that was the way to do it?
And I think I push my Japan saw first?
Loved the little video!
Edited 5/3/2009 3:20 am by WillGeorge
Yeah, that's the way I thought you were supposed to do it. Always made sense to me; go the easy way with the saw - gives more control to start.
I never really thought of my hands as pretty, but thank you ... I guess. ;-)
Maybe I can make some money on the side as a hand model - a la George Castanza from Seinfeld. Then again, I don't want to have to wear oven mitts all the time, as woodworking in the mitts would be even harder than it is already.
As for the sawing, no doubt there is plenty wrong with my technique, but it gets me there. I really can't imagine another way to start a saw than drawing it back?? Also, how can drawing it back on the rirst stroke do any more damage to teh teeth than the draw stroke on every subsequent push and pull?
George's career as a hand model ended badly, as I recall. I think an iron was involved,...I enjoyed the video as well - you saw fast, compared to me. Maybe it was just a function of the video playing back on this Macbook - but it struck me as fast. But like you say, whatever gets you there is the right way.
Thanks, Ed. I've found that for me, it's better to keep a smooth but up-tempo pace. When I go slower, it's hard to be as smooth; things get jerky and I need to steer more - inevitably leading to bad things. That pace, visualizing a plane or line (extending out to infinity) that I'm moving the saw on, and holding the saw more loosely (no death grip) were some of the main "oh-now-I-get-it" moments in my sawing learning curve. I mention those things not for you, but in case any newbies are reading along.
At least 1 is reading.
H,
"At least 1 is reading".
2. :-)
Samson often makes how-to posts about making techniques that, to my mind, complement the Derek how-to concerning tool choice, fettles and such. I find a great deal in their slightly obsessive approach to the smallest details, as this is often the learning-spot that makes all the difference. It's almost like having a real-life teacher, rather than just a book, which books often stay at the generic or high-level of instruction.
Both have changed my attitudes to handtool work and the resulting qualities of the pieces made with them.
I'll suck-up a bit now and mention that Derek and Sean have between them changed my perspectives, attitudes and procedures in woodworking more than anyone in the last year or three. Plenty of other Knotters have provided me with lots of valuable lessons but these two are outstanding I think.
Lataxe, trying to offer praise without fandom, which would be insulting.
Sir L
Sucking up will get you every thing! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Lataxe,
Uh, there's three counting here.
I echo your sentiments with regard to Samson, Derek and yerself as well.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/4/2009 8:29 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I appreciate your modesty in adding yourself as a newbie. At least acknowledge being an advanced newbie to leave room for folks like me, who has a ways to go to catch up. Who do you think you are calling yourself a newbie? I've worked long and hard to maintain my ignorance. There are many willing to shed blood and defend their ignorance with pride. Please save me. ;~)>
I tried to tell people it wasn't the booze; nobody listened.
Edited 5/4/2009 11:41 pm ET by habilis
Habilis,
I am thrilled to hear that there is another woodworker out there in the world who shares my view that it is not the tools but what you do with them that is important. You pointed out a great example of the guy with the $100,000 workshop who built a match box. I know a guy in the local woodworkers guild who goes around buying big power tools and old hand tools, and taking a few courses a year from famous woodworkers. He came in and showed us a sample-board of different finishes they had experimented with in an expensive class on finishing. I have yet to see anything he has made. YIPPEE. There are two of us woodworkers who believe in the performance of the woodworker over the set of tools he has.Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
When I've reached the limits of what can be done with the tools I have, I'll study some more. Then if I need a tool, I'll know what I want and feel free to buy the best I can. "Best" be a tool that does well what it's supposed to for generations. Forget the bells, whistles, prestige, miracle workers. Also helps me rethink the objective, various ways to reach it and make jigs.
There are a # of names I'm always happy to see and enjoy your posts. Why I keep coming back. I've miles to go 'fore I sleep.Pete
Pete,
I share your sentiments exactly. We must be twins who were separated at birth. I am making my first chair, a glider (gentle rocker) for my grandchild. It has a rounded back which caused me to do things I have never done before and I am enjoying it thoroughly. Of course, doing new things takes longer, but being retired, I am not in a big rush.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ya know Mel,
If someone gave me an $85 LN tack hammer...why I think I'd probably....are you ready? ....I'd hammer in the morning....then, I'd hammer in the evening.....hell, I'd hammer all over this land!....IF I had a hammer, that is..
Non musical Neil
Neil,
You know, I thought of the same song, but I didn't write it down. I guess great minds run in the same gutter. :-)But if Holtey can get $8000 for a handplane, why is $85 too much for a hammer. There are a lot of sheep out there just waiting to be fleeced. Knots is a training ground for many of those who will be fleeced. Indeed, some of them learn to love it. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Unfortunately too many folks here on Knots seem to get their jollies about arguing endlessly about such things.
I do try to mix up the mix of thoughts in here!
I hardly ever ever do that ..Get there there jollies in here.. Wxceot for when I see this NEW Brunette and try to compare her to others!
I am marketing a line of hammers made from the steel melted down from 12th century weaponry used in the Siege of Jerusalem. Hand forged in furnaces heated by pristine Pennsylvania coal stockpiled by the Cochran Family in the 1850's and only recently discovered, the forging itself is done by asbestos bikini clad Playboy bunnies (virgins of course) and feature handles made from wooden handrailing recovered from the Titanic. Given the biblical heritage of these metal in these hammers, what with the Crusades and all, they come delivered by courier with a Papal Decree that all but assures you will never strike a tack and have the result be anything but a perfect drive. Stories are circulating that a halo is seen around the head of these hammers on every friday during Lent and it's not even necessary to strike a tack, the mere presence of divinity drives the tack in with no effort on the part of the hammer.Museums would certainly pay millions for one of these accomplishments in craft and art, were I to let them purchase one, but for you and the other Knots members I will find the charity to sell no more than 5 hammers for $300k each. It's a bargain compared to what I would normally get for them, because you know, value is relative.
Woodman,
What a wonderful tool - a hammer with biblical implications! This, at any price, could open up new doors for the woodworking tool industry.BUT I don't believe that everyone will automatically believe that the hammer is worth the price. I AM HERE TO HELP. Let me do a "review" of the hammer, which I shall distribute widely. Of course, in order to do a fully unbiased and incisive review, I will need one of the hammers. Of course, I assume thatthe hammer is payment for the review. I have another idea to add to your hammer. I am thinking of selling photographic prints of scenes from the Holy Land, in beautifully frames made of OLIVEWOOD. I call my firm "Prints of Peace". Will you do a review of my framed prints? Same deal.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I forgot to mention that on the face of the hammer you will see, in the right light, an image of sweet baby jesus or the Virgin Mary (two models, you get to choose). Given the unique nature of this product I cannot provide samples as my brand value is enhanced through the lack of exposure and public review, it's all about exclusivity.
As a luke warm backslider who spent years of toiling in the schools of the good Sisters and brothers, I believe the good Jesuit fathers could debate endlessley if God could even drive a nail in crooked with such a hammer. Just as they debate if He could make a rock so big that He couldn't lift it. I always pray to our Lady of Perpetual Motion before I even pick up a hammer.
Woodburn.
I went to
St Mary's Grammar School
Cathedral High School
The Catholic University of America. If you ever wanna swap Catholic education stories, I am ready.
The Jebbies were my favorite arguers.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619: Yep, Immaculate Conception Grade School ( now THERE'S a name for ya)
Helias High School ( Christian Bros) these guys were hitters
but, after 12 years of getting slapped aroung due to my smart mouth (yeah right), I opted for a public State University where I could get slapped around in bars and taverns, again due to my smart mouth and my inability to leave some other guy's date alone. Thank God I have grown older but not up. Only woodworking scars now.
Woodbum,
I remember Sister Mary Aloysius back in 9th grade. We used to call her "Big Al", but not to her face. Once, for talking in line, between classes, she picked me up by shirt (two hands) and bounced me into the wall. I haven't spoken since. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Funny stuff!
You had me laughing out loud for a few minutes, especially when I got to the part about how the mere presence of the hammer in all its Divine Glory would cause the tack to drive itself into the wood. Too funny..
But seriously, I just took receipt of one of LN's tack hammers (the hardened tool steel one), and I can tell you that it's very impressive. Fits the hand perfectly, balance is wonderful, fit and finish are perfect... it is a very, very well designed tool, and I think it was money well spent. Yes, I know I could have ordered several Warrington pattern hammers from the UK for the price of the LN, but when I was pondering which to buy, I remembered what my father told me when I was young:
"A poor man cain't afford ta buy cheap tools".
I've always followed his advice, and I have yet to become frustrated or dissatisfied with any woodworking tool I have ever purchased. Or, for that matter, ever have had one fail on me for whatever reason (of course, I take care of my tools, like we all should). If I cannot afford to buy, say, a LN #7 Jointer Plane, then I will source an antique Stanley #7 and restore it to pristine condition: true the sole, strip and recoat with asphaltum, upgrade the iron to something by Hock and maybe even carve up a new tote if'n it needs it. I end up spending less than 1/2 of what I would have for the LN, but I have a tool that will last a century or more (with proper care) and give excellent service.
Last bit: If I could have persuaded Estwing to make a cross-pein Warrington pattern hammer (or a range of them), I would have bought Estwing instead of LN... but we all can't have what we want, can we?
PzB41
PS: I attended Saint Anthony Grade School and Newport Catholic Highschool... I'll always remember Sister MaryAnn Cilla dropping my sister Melissa with one shot to the face when Melissa DARED to mouth off to her... Sister MaryAnn was something like 98 years old and looked like she fell off a charm bracelet (she was only 4-foot-nothing and all wrinkley), but NOBODY dared mouth off to that evil little Penguin. I still have trouble writing to this day from all the *THWACKS* I got on the hand for whispering to my buddy Nick in her class... She was brutal!
Edited 5/14/2009 11:36 am ET by PzB41
I don't have a problem being critical of LN, but I like the hammers. There simply aren't a lot of hammers like this one on the market today. The Stanley Warrington hammers I have beheld all had loose, ill fitting heads. Because of their use of epoxy, it looked to me that they needed new handles. And the head angles on some were off a bit. There are closed hammers, and open hammers.
You need special hammers for traditional cabinetry. Long small heads reach into moldings. The cross peen is really helpful for really short nails. I used needle-nosed pliers before I got my first warrington hammer many years ago. It was a revelation. I also like light heads on long thin handles. I really do better with softer hits when driving cut or forged nails. This is a tip I picked up from period woodworker Dave Hoffman. If you are so close to an edge that you think you are going to crack it or "push out", lighter hits can help.
I think the objection here is really solely about the price. But most of you think nothing of paying $400 for a hand plane, so I find your objection a bit hypocritical. At least one of you thinks $400 planes are bargains since such tools can be resold for as much. So why the difference with this tool? It appears to be a beautiful tool. It will probably be an exceptional performer. It will likely be ready for use "straight out of the box" which makes it fundamentally unlike it's competition. What makes this tool different from any other of the premium tools from this maker?
I may be going too far here but of all the tools you want to be careful with, this one, a tool I use at the very end of a long hard project (nailing on moldings) deserves perhaps more care and sophistication than those used earlier, where and when mistakes can be easily dealt with (like a roughing plane).
In a recent class, a student admitted he would like some instruction on the proper use of a hammer. After thanking him for his openess (are all woodworkers supposed to be born hammerers? not all cabinetmakers were carpenters first) I shared with him that I don't use my hammer often enough to claim any great skill with the tool. I too need all the help I can get. All the more reason to consider the subject more carefully. Last thing I want is a bent over nail or elephant track in a crown mold. The wrong tool (like a carpenter's hammer) combined with an infrequent skill, employed at the end of a project (with the often pressure of wet, quickly gelling glue) can be disastrous. So what's that hammer worth again?
Adam
Edited 5/1/2009 9:08 am ET by AdamCherubini
Mr C,
Good points you make, all. And after all, no one has to buy that hammer - unless they are claiming LN addiction of course.
Happily I don't really need to attach mouldings myself; but I was glazing a door with some expensive stained glass last week. Nailing in the wooden whatsits that keep the glass in place was a little fraught as the pins were 3/4" brass (into oak). I used a certain wee plane hammer supplied from New Zealand but would gladly have picked up that LN if it has magically appeared nearby.
Lataxe, always prepared to pay for a good tool hisself as the not-good ones are testing of the temper.
PS I think the LN brass & wood DT marker is krapp and have given it away, which I mention just in case someone thought I might be an LN addict or even a-one o' them shills that the trolls hoot about.
Lataxe,
anyone who watches Norm knows that the best way to attach moulding is:yup, you guessed it, nail gun. Fast, no muss, no fuss, and you can do it one handed. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Honourable Sir,Personally, I love my little Senco pin nailer. I've had too many cases of the yips which are well known to leave bent pins, little dents, etc. in the last piece of moulding being installed. These are the same "yips" that help me maintain my vocabulary when I'm on the golf course! Nasty little devils that seem to be completely immune to instruction.Regards,Ron
Edited 5/3/2009 4:49 pm ET by RonInOttawa
Don't see a need for an LN hammer, though they're damn nice. Picked up a light weight English strap hammer with a thin, ball end handle some time ago. Liked the feel of it so much that I took my 10 oz. Stanley Warrington and majorly thinned the handle and shaped a similar ball end on the handle, checking the feel frequently while doing the shaping. The end result is now having a Warrington pattern hammer that feels right. Could it be the Stanleys don't have a handle that is a more traditional design? Also, I've had two Stanley Warringtons for more than a couple years and neither of mine has the handle epoxied on.
I also have a 4 oz. Warrington that doesn't feel right (Stanley). I shortened it's handle and now it feels worse, so one of these days, I have to re-handle it. Current price of the Stanleys are around $25.00 or so, and with the time to "tweak" into a user, you would be in the range of an LN.
Hammers are one of those things that don't get much use and sometimes respect, but like some chisels, they can become old friends and be almost an extension of your hand. I probably got three or four dozen in my "accumulation".
T.Z.
You could say all the same things about Stanley Bedrock planes. This maker (LN) markets their tools to folks who don't want to mess with antique tools. I think the folks here on KNOTS, myself included, sometimes wind themselves up around nonsense. This may be one of those cases. If not, I'd like to know why the prejudice against a boutique or premium hammer? Why should hammers be $10 when planes or saws are $300? Is it a less importnat tool? Less complicated? Planes are just chisels held in a block at a fixed angle. Wow. That wine I just drank with that excellant Philly Steak and Bacon slice of pizza went straight to my head! That'll teach me to drink from jelly jars (i's an italian-american thing)Adam
It's interesting, and disappointing, that this thread turned to a critique of what tools an authentic woodworker uses. Personally, I don't think one's street cred it enhanced by using a vintage bedrock plane or a garage sale Stanley 750 chisel with a handle turned from an interesting tree stump salvaged from the neighbor's recycle bin. People, pros and joes, collect tools, it just happens. If you play golf you probably have more than a few extra putters... I have 3 helmets even though I use only 1... I have 2 framing hammers (although in fairness, the face on one is pretty worn down) and 3 regular block planes (1 for carpentry, 1 for finish work, and 1 in my shop). None of these facts make me a snob, collector, purist, or any other descriptor. I also don't have a bias against premium tools, especially considering I have a bench full of them. My complaint against an $85 hammer is against LN for making it just because they could and they know that their target market segment will pay $85 for a with some exotic sounding labels and the promise that exclusivity will make the buyer the envy of all. I do think you are being disingenuous by suggesting that a plane is "just a chisel held in a block at a fixed angle". A plane has several parts (a blade, chipbreaker, frog, adjuster, maybe an adjustable mouth) that have to be machined with a degree of precision in order to work properly while a hammer is a single casting that been ground and polished with a handle stuck in it. So to answer your question, yeah it's a hell of a lot less complicated compared to a plane. I'm not even complaining about the price because who knows what it costs to make and market this tool... and I figure that right now we have enough people in government interested in telling the rest of us what is a moral and appropriate income that I'd rather not add to that chorus. Like I said in an earlier reply, they could charge $850 for it and I would not care but what is offensive, and being a frequent LN customer I think I have paid for the right to have an opinion they should listen to, is that they are offering this because they can milk the market rather than reintroduce some long lost tool or offer a better version of a vintage standard. Their brand is supposed to stand for something more than making an easy buck off the backs of a willing proletariat. BTW, I stepped away from the keyboard after drinking a bottle of Lambrusco Grasparossa with my wife over bbq ribs!
Adam,
You make a compelling argument, maybe you should consider writing marketing copy for LN :) I get what you are saying, and to be clear I really don't have an issue with an $85 hammer for it being $85... hell it could be $850 and I really would not care.
My issue is that this smacks of LN marketing an $85 hammer simply because they can. There are no moving parts, precision machining, incremental design improvements... all hallmarks of their line of planes. I have the same issue with their chisels by the way, and while you will notice part of one in the picture I have attached below, I'd trade them in a heartbeat for a set of Ashley Iles mk2 chisels.
I just wish LN would focus their considerable engineering resources on something less pedantic than a hammer. I think this is something that Lee Valley is doing really well, tweaking traditional tool designs and building a better mousetrap.
Lastly, I bought this pair of warrington hammers for $15 a few years ago, serving me well through pretty regular use. They aren't "A-2 hardened steel" but I don't think I can tell you why that would be important, and while they aren't as pretty as the LN hammers they sure work well.
View Image
Edited 5/2/2009 12:44 am ET by Woodman41
I'm not sure I see what the big deal is, I paid $165 for my Stilleto Titanium claw hammer. Of course, I use it EVERY DAY and wear it on my hip. It's 8 1/2 oz lighter then my old 20oz Vaughn and I would buy another in a second if it disappeared. One man's ridiculous extravagance is another man's absolute necessity.
You been happy with that Stilleto? I don't think that's an extravagance at all, I'd call it a preventative measure to reduce your risk for tendinitis...I'd love to shed a few ounces off my framing hammer but I've only run into a few guys that have them and would like to get more feedback before taking the plunge.
It's a great hammer, I don't drive nails the way I used to, older and more nailguns now. Mostly use it for undoing work and the occasional hand nail. The side puller works really well. The balance is good and i got used to the rubber grip (I do miss a wood handle). It's a little harder to get into the loop on my belt with the little knobby thing on the end of the grip. I've heard complaints about the steel face loosening up but I haven't experienced it myself. One other feature, at that price you ALWAYS know where your hammer is, it no longer gets lent to anyone for anything. Like I said in my previous post, if it disappeared, I'd buy another in an instant.
I think the guys that make tool rigs need to rethink their approach to securing a hammer... I am constantly cursing the one I have for how tight the fit is with my framing hammer (also has a handle that flares out at the end). When I first started in 1983 you still drove a lot of nails by hand, and you got pretty damn good at it as a result, but today nail guns have taken over and it's really amazing to see how many of the younger guys don't hold their hammer properly and struggle with driving more than 1 or 2 nails when they have to.
I'll let you know how I like mine when it arrives next week.
...Oh ya, I've got the Stanley beater too. Totally different animal. This one will be primarily a plane adjustment hammer for me or for just very small trim work, such as installing retainers for glass in cabinet doors.
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