I have spent the day regrinding the bevels on all my chisels, polishing the backs to 400 grit
and sharpening from soft Arkansas all the way to Black Arkansas.
Most of my chisels are a mixed breed of Robert Sorby, Greenlee, and cast steel from Buck Brothers and England.
I just received the winter flyer from Lie-Nielsen Toolworks. I noticed with jaw dropping amazement that 4 of their bench chisels are $275.00.
Is there something that I m missing? How can 4-Lie-Nielsen Chisels be worth $275.00?
I have a project in mind, The heirloom tool chest, with a lot of hand cut dovetails.
Would these Lie-Nielsen chisels be worth the money for all my up coming dovetails?
Replies
I noticed with jaw dropping amazement that 4 of their bench chisels are $275.00.
Is there something that I m missing? How can 4-Lie-Nielsen Chisels be worth $275.00?
Well, the math part is easy. Let's see. $68 each. *If* you had free materials and all the machinery you never had to buy needed to make them and never had to repair or replace it, you could pay yourself $8.50 and hour to make them. That means one chisel every 8 hours.
Now add in stocking the raw materials. Pay yourself--or better yet, another person--a living wage. Bank a small percentage for tooling and repair/replacement costs. Oh, utilities, building expenses, etc., too. Don't forget that the person you are paying needs to actually also make the business some profit.
I don't know. But while $68 a chisel seems like a lot, it isn't once I begin to think about the above.
Take care, Mike
>mwenz *If*Well said ! We need to get used to the prices we must pay for American made tools to provide a living wage (barely) to American workers and pay it.We are used to paying prices for tools made by people who work in flip flops and sit on the floor when they get home to their shack in the slums. Now we are starting to have to live that way to compete.Bring the work back to America and lets pay the nut for it.rocPS: Some say go to college and run the company that makes the foreign chisels etc. I say some of us are born metal workers and craftsmen and nothing on the list of high paying, college educated, paper pushing, yacking all day type jobs is going to suit us. We are just built different and need those jobs here.
Edited 11/30/2008 5:06 pm by roc
Swifty,
You asked: "Would these Lie-Nielsen chisels be worth the money for all my up coming dovetails?"
That depends on you. What would make them worth the money to you?
If you know how to make dovetails, you could use your current chisels, which are nicely sharpened, or the BIG NAME BRAND, which you will still have to sharpen. I am positive that if you made two tool chests, one with your current set and one with the LNs, no one would be able to tell which is which.
Another point to ponder: Why do virtually all the woodworking schools in the USA use the blue handled Marples/Irwin chisels, which are about the cheapest you can buy?
I believe you can put almost as good an edge on an Irwin as you can on the LNs. I believe the LN edges will last a bit longer. Does it make any difference to you if you have to hone every half hour or every hour of use. My guess is that you could make two tool chests or more before you would have to hone the cheaper chisels.
But you have asked a question which is far more complex than you imagined. The LN chisels have some nice features for making dovetails. For example, they have long edges which are almost sharp, so they can fit into the corner of a dovetail much better than chisels with thicker long edges. Is that important? I guess so. Everybody says it is. But then again, I cut a lot of dovetails with my last set of bench chisels, and they had thick edges.
A well known woodworker/teacher/writer has published an article showing how to take a cheap set of Irwins and make them like the LNs. He has you cut off the top half of the handle to make them shorter, lighter and easier to handle (eg keep upright). Then he has you thin the long edges on a grinder (at least the bottom few inches). My guess is Lonnie Bird's idea is just fine. So do you need to do that? I don't know. As I said, I have cut dovetails with tall, heavy chisels with wide long edges. If I can, certainly you can.
You may get a lot of different answers to your question. Who are you going to believe? What type of person would you believe? On Knots we have Professional woodworkers, hobbyists, tool collectors, etc etc etc, all with different values. You have to pick the group you would most like to associate with. I have asked your question to professional woodworkers. They tend to have an older bunch of chisels that they bought one at a time. The tool collectors tend to like some of the older collectible chisels. I won't go into that. Others know it better. Then there is another group here on Knots -- the richer older hobbyists who can afford expensive toys and like to keep up with the newest and the "best" (whatever that means) that come out. Some of them might recommend the LNs. Of course, there are other makers who charge more than Lie Nielsen. Have you looked at the really good Japanese chisels? MUCH MUCH MORE than the LNs.
Look. I have gone on far too long, as I always do. The bottom line is that if you have the skill to cut dovetails, you can make fine ones with cheap chisels, especially ones which are very well honed. I believe the set you have is more than adequate.
If you are very wealthy, I would buy the Lie Nielsens, and a set of the best Japanese chisels and have fun with both. If you are more interested in increasing your skill set and increasing your tool set, I'd stick with the chisels you have for a while. Spend your money on tools you need but do not yet have. Later, if you find you have the money and would like a "nicer" set, then get a nicer set. Thay might make you very happy. Me, I am happiest when I do good woodworking than when I have tools that cost a lot.
I hope I have given you reason to think for yourself. I have given you some ammunition. If I were you, I'd quit worrying and writing, and just chop some dovetails and make your chest. You'll find out that you didn't have anything to worry about. Worry about the collapse of the US banks and financial system. That is worth worrying about.
Me, I have the Lie Nielsens, but then again, I am a special case. That is a story for another day.
Have fun. Build masterpieces. Build lots of them. Think and talk about the woodwork and the skills, not the tools. You'll be better off, and you'll end up with better skills and more furniture. AND you'll figure out the answer to the "which chisels" for yourself, and not need to be told by others, most of whom disagree with each other, and with themselves from time to time.
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
My mentor is James Krenov and his instructions of using chisels and constructing dovetails.
I have never met him personally but his books have been an inspiration. My favorite book is,
"A Cabinetmakers Notebook".
Swifty,Ah, so you are a Krenovian!
Now I understand.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
Most of my chisels are socket handled cast steel,Robert Sorby,and Greenlee.
I may buy just one to compare. I may have to re-sharpen a bit more but that is a job I enjoy as well.
I am in process of building a Heirloom Tool chest so when the day comes I have to move to a smaller space, I will have all the essentials in one place.
Swifty,
Have fun building your Heirloom Tool chest. I am not one who worships tools. I treat my tools very well, but that is for practical reasons. I find that people who get too much into "tools" tend to let the tools get in the way of woodwork. Krenov had the right idea. You want a plane, make it. Don't make it fancy. Make one that fits your hand and does the job you need it to do. Great way of thinkingWhen I make a tool chest, it is merely a convenient place to keep my tools. I don't want a tool chest that I am worried about nicking or scratching, so to me, an "Heirloom Tool Chest" is like a square circle. WHen I want to do something up with all the nicest joinery and woods, I make something that is for the nice china or for storing or displaying the good stuff. ie something for my wife. I don't try to get others to share my opinions or attitudes toward woodwork. I just listen to theirs, and respect them, and I describe mine, in case someone else might find one of them interesting or useful. The nice thing about woodworking is that everybody does it differently. Others have built Heirloom Tool Boxes. The most ornate that I have ever seen is on page 163 of Fredrick Wilbur's book "Carving Classical Styles in Wood". I plan to make that box someday, but he uses it for his gouges. I will give my to my wife, and make the insides into a jewelry box. (not that she has that much jewelry). Nice trading ideas with you. Be sure to post some photos and some lessons-learned when you build your tool chest. I'd really like to see it. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
swifty6,As was implied before, for dovetails(chopping) nothing beats the Japanese chisel IMO...if you want to experiment try one or two of those.Also, a set of 750's used go for about $50 each and the 850's $100 each...sets are hard to find.
Mel,
Happy Thanksgiving. Let me know when you are coming up this way to visit family and we'll find time to have some coffee and swap stories.
As always, I enjoy your writing. I agree with your focus on what one can do with the tool one has, rather than can't do without the best tools.
My thoughts as to why the various woodworking schools use the Irwin or Marples blue handled chisels are two things. One, cost. Two, the students aren't going to steal them. The school owner knows the student is going to be there for a weekend or a week. They may bring their own, but to keep their overhead down, they provide inexpensive, but workable tools. (A side benefit to a quality of chisel that may need sharpening or honing more frequently is that the student learns how to sharpen and hone.) The other is also overhead cost related. If the school owner were to provide more expensive tools, they may disappear.
Hope you and your beloved are well. Check out my posting regarding two of the grandkids and Thanksgiving. 44337.2
Alan - planesaw
Edited 11/30/2008 4:55 pm ET by Planesaw
Alan,
Good to hear from you. I saw the photos of Sam and Eva. Good lookin kids, and they were having fun! It doesn't get better than that!! I have been spending a lot of time with my grandson, Freddy. Just heard that I will have a second grandkid in about 7 months. Great news. You said : "I agree with your focus on what one can do with the tool one has, rather than can't do without the best tools."I have to figure out how to make two points simply and crisply. They are different.
1) you can make great furniture with poor to mediocre tools.
2) the term "Best tools" is a term which is worse than useless. It gives the impression that there is a "best tool" just as there is a single person who wins the 100 meter dash at the Olympics. However, for woodworking, the term best is relative, and it is fraught with error. For example, for a person with a lot of disposable income, it might be better to buy "expensive" tools, because in general they are better than cheaper tools. However for a person of limited means, a set of used Marples might be far more appropriate.No one in the thread can agree on which set of chisels is the best. Derek likes his new Blue Spruces, and his Japanese chisels. I like my LNs. Others like antique chisels. And the beat goes on. I would like the phrase "Best tool" or "best tools" to go away. Unfortunately it wont. I am not against expensive tools. I think everyone should make up their own mind as to what they want to buy, use, collect, etc. I also believe that it is far more useful to focus on continuing to develop one's skills than to continually be chasing the lastest change in bandsaws and handsaws and planes, and Festools, etc. But so what. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"A well known woodworker/teacher/writer has published an article showing how to take a cheap set of Irwins and make them like the LNs"
Mel,
Would you perhaps have a link to said article? I did a bit of Googling but did not come up with anything.
I have two sets of Marples, both well used and in "excessively pampered" condition. Several years ago I cut down the handles on several of them. I would be most interested in reading what Lonnie Bird has to say about modifying them.
Best to you and yours!
-Jerry
Jerry,Lonnie Bird published the article on modifying Marples/Irwin chisels to make them more like the Lie Nielsens (shorter and with sharper long edges). You can find the article at:http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Modifying_Stock_Chisels/I hope you enjoy it. The Marples/Irwin chisels are more than adequate and can be used for the finest woodwork. They take a nice edge. To my way of thinking, there is TOO much emphasis on fancy tools in Knots. But that is what most of the folks here want. It doesn't hurt. It is like a golfer buying an expensive driver, hoping it will make him a better golfer. He would be better off taking a cue from Tiger Woods and do a lot of practicing. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Lonnie Bird also did the same trick to a highly revered Stanley 750 chisels! Tools are meant to be means to the end, and not the end itself.
T.Z. (who is very tired after a long 3 days at deer hunting camp and who wisely came home before he actually had to hunt as camp is for re-uniting with old friends, playing cards, eating too much and imbiding a tad too much)
Ah Tony,
You know the real reason to go to camp, and it ain't for killing Bambi. Sounds like fun, but I suppose it can be tiring. Sometimes it is fun to "redesign" a tool. I have a few chisels and gouges that are not the same shape they were born in, but not they perform specific tasks very well. Indeed, today I am going to take a 1/2" chisel and round it for use in carving Gothic tracery. I read Lonnie's article, and was impressed with his creativity, but it seemed like a stretch to me. You can only do so much to a tool. It is difficult to turn a Jack Plane into a band saw. I am sure that Lonnie takes on a number of writing assignments, and then is pressed to find something to write about. That article made me think. That's good.A few messages before this one, I posted a copy of a message from Larry Williams on how to sharpen moulding planes. Please take a look at it and tell me what you think.Welcome home.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Camp is where we used to go to act "twenty-one" again. Now we go to camp to think we're "twenty-one" again. Whereas we used to drink way too much, now we drink a bit, but we eat like gourmets!
I read Larry's post a few days back and I found it enlightening. I've looked to Larry's posts as a tether to reasonableness and (he) almost acts a firewall to not believe everything posted on forums and written in magazines and books. Whereas we have some who dress and re-enact the art of our hobby, Larry and Don McConnell live it and build tools true to form. I would not expect anything less from Larry Williams than his methods of sharpening molding planes.
Most of the time, all that exists on forums such as this are public words with little or no substance to back those words.
T.Z.
Tony,
"Most of the time, all that exists on forums such as this are public words with little or no substance to back those words. "You are both a cynic and a realist.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nope.
Well said Charles.
Lee
Boy, your message was a lot easier to read than the previous one!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
There is no such thing as a "must have" tool. Just about everything will work if you have the skills required.
Woodworkers buy LN (and other brands) for different reasons. Some like their extra durability (from A2 steel) in hardwoods. Some like the design (they have slim sides to get into angles more easily). Some like the prestige. Some like the comfort and balance of the chisels.
The determination of whether something is "expensive" depends on one's point of view - how important they are to your woodworking, and what you can afford to pay. There are many chisels that cost less (and some rate better) and many chisels that cost far, far more (and some are indeed much better and some are not).
A profesional woodworker is likely to ask whether a tool will pay for itself. A hobbyest is likely to ask whether they can afford it.
Only you can say whether the LN chisels fit in for you.
The real issue is whether you are happy with what you have already, or whether you are looking to find something that you believe will make the job of forming dovetails easier/more pleasurable/etc.
For reference, I used to have an oddment of Witherbys that I collected and restored over several years. I liked the balance, but the steel just folded on our Aussie hardwoods. I now have a bunch of Japanese chisels, mostly Iyoroi, which are at the inexpensive end of the range - less that the current LN prices. These take a real beating. I also have a set of Blue Spruce (that I preferred over the LNs), and which cost as much as the LNs. The Japanese chisels are for use with a mallet. The Blue Spruce are for paring. Both are enjoyable to use.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,Some lads will never realise that a thing is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In the case of mass-produced products, it's whether sufficient numbers of customers are willing to pay for sufficient products to keep a manufacturer going.Some lads (often the same ones) will never realise that there are many reasons for buying things besides the accountant's rote of profit-v-loss. This is because these lads think life and everything in it is a modern business. It is a sad thing for them to be so shallow; but what can one do? They are disinclined to take off the blinkers as they will get "alternative viewpoint fright" and suffer depression or even a blue funk.Some lads (is it still that same crowd?) believe that all other folk ought to think, feel and act like them concerning tool purchases and also much else. Gawd, what a grey old world that would be!Lataxe, who cannot worship them dollars nor even a five pound note but revels in what they can be swapped for.
"Some lads (is it still that same crowd?) believe that all other folk ought to think, feel and act like them concerning tool purchases and also much else. Gawd, what a grey old world that would be!
You couldn't possibly know anyone like that, do you?
swifty,
Yes you are missing something!
Just think of all the heart palpitations the first time you nick the blade on one of them LNs. The first time you drop one on the concrete floor.
I paid on average $13 apiece for the Marples I have. So I could buy 5 sets and still have money left over. But I'm sure my dovetails would be better if I had some LN chisels to make 'em with.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
ask me in 50 years and I'll tell you.
I love my Irwin Blue Chips. I only wish I had gotten a set of the pre-Irwin Blue Chips with the boxwood handles.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I find it interesting that many of the same folks bemoning the cost of the LN tools (chiesels here but other products in other discussions) or other brands for that matter are the same individuals who comment on the cheap products being imported and the poor quality of tools. As well as the loss of jobs in manufacturing in the US. To make a good product it takes skilled labor and high quality materials. If you can do it cheaper- start your own business and let customers knock down your door!
Now, I am not saying you can't do excellent work with cheaper tools (I have plenty on both ends of the cost spectrum). Clearly it is impossible to identify the tools that made a well made piece of furniture. But this has nothing to do with the cost of producing a high quality tool. And please but don't complain when a manufacturer produces a quality tool and wants to actually pay both his workers and him/herself a living wage. We all need to make a decent living.
I don't think anybody is bemoaning anything. The OP already has very high quality vintage chisels the equal or better than what LN has to offer.There's nothing left but to put them to work.
Edited 11/30/2008 8:20 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Chris,
"I love my Irwin Blue Chips. I only wish I had gotten a set of the pre-Irwin Blue Chips with the boxwood handles."Why don't we start a "Marples Collectors Society"? We can make a website like "Patrick's Blood and Gore" website and list all of the different changes that the Marples chisels went through. That should drive the prices right up there. Of course, before we do it, I want to go out and buy a bunch of them. As you can tell, I am searching hard to find something that will be my legacy to woodwork. I used to think it was my invention of the "draw bore pinned dowel joint", but that isn't going to hack it. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The LN are very nice, and hold an edge very well. What you have are excellent as well. The LN's won't magically make your dt's better or easier.
My reclaimed 750 style Stanley's (similar to your Greenlee, Buck, etc.) - all bought for between $1 and $15 (except the 1" which was in mint and therefore around $35) do fine:
View Image
If you have an older chisel that you don't mind converting a bit on the grinder, this modification will aid dovetailing a bit:
View Image
Edited 12/1/2008 9:11 pm ET by Samson
Samson,>reclaimed 750 style Stanley'sVery nice !
roc
Did you make those handles or did you buy them? I am looking for some and can,t find them.
Spike, those are the stock handles that originally came with the chisels, but because I bought users - that is, cosmetically challenged, but perfectly good - often the laquer was chipped and the leather gone, squished, or otherwise mangled. So I removed the leather, cut off the wood nub, and rounded the edges of the corners on the top - sanded off the chipped laquer and replaced it with a few coats of BLO. There you have it; that's what you see. Hope that helps.
Spike,
There is a Canadian gentleman who sells Stanley 750s on ebay and he makes handles that look just like the original. Don't remember his name, (hmmm, jake or some variation on that comes to mind), but spend a little time over several weeks and chances are you'll find him.
Alan - planesaw
Lie-Nielsen doesn't sell sets of 4, only 5. The set of 5 is $275. An individual chisel is $55.
swifty,I bought my chisels through Grizzly. I bought them either in 2003 or 2004. They have blue handles with the name Marples in an oval. On the blades is printed, "HAND FORGED SHEFFIELD ENGLAND." I paid $45 for a set of 6, 1/4" through 1-1/2".I didn't know then that such chisels were inferior and couldn't be used to cut fine dovetails. I didn't know that with their thick edges they couldn't get into tight places and lean out the wood fibers, or that they couldn't hold an edge.So I've used them all this time to do all those things. They cut cleanly and true. They get into the tiniest of places. They make very clean cuts. I push them with the heel of my hand, I tap them with a mallet, when needed. They're not mortise chisels, but they can take being driven by mallet blows.When they need honing, I hone them. It takes a few seconds, less than a minute, and they're razor-sharp again. I hold them on my water stone with the tips of my fingers, and a few strokes later they are ready to use. I don't really think about it. That's part of using a chisel. I don't know how long they stay razor sharp, but it seems long enough. It depends on what I'm using them for. Honing when needed? Who cares? It's part of the process.I know a master flooring installer who hones his knife after every cut he makes in vinyl flooring. Every single cut. His hands go in his apron pocket to get the hone as he's moving to re-position his 10' straight edge. There are no wasted movements and the honing is done. It's part of the process. (BTW, his seams are invisible).When the flats on the heel and edge of my hollow-ground bevels become too big from honing, I regrind on my 8" wheel. It takes a minute or two, once in a while.After using them, I put the little plastic protectors back on and put them in a drawer. I keep thinking some day I'll make a rack for them. But then I get busy and the idea goes away again.Now there are $70+ chisels and everyone "knows" one needs such a chisel to do fine dovetails and such. Only such chisels can hold an edge. Use a lesser chisel and one is doomed to poor edges, crushed fibers, folding over of steel and endless honing.The L-N chisels are a pleasure to behold. Anyone buying them should enjoy having a fine tool. Absolutely. No question.They probably perform very nicely (in the hands of someone with at least a basic skill level). But I really don't think their existence resulted in work that had been done by less expensive tools suddenly to have begun falling apart!Is it possible that the L-N chisels will hold an edge longer than Marples, (Irwin, whatever)? Possibly. Does it make a bit of difference in actual use?No.A chisel is as basic a wood working tool as exists. A cutting wedge, held in the hand. It's not as though one must disassemble a hand plane, sharpen its blade and re-assemble. When a chisel needs attention, sharpen it, and get working again. There is nothing more basic to this craft.I would be willing to bet that there would be no difference in production or quality, comparing 2 journeymen furniture makers, one using L-N chisels, the other using much less expensive ones.Similarly, there would be no difference in the work of 2 lesser workers under the same circumstances. Excluding real junk, it's not the tool that makes a difference, it's the skill of the person using it.Rich
>not the tool that makes a difference, it's the skill of the person using it.Reminds me of a Japanese wood workers saying "You can tell the master because he sharpens least often and has the sharpest tools".On the same note of Krenov and why have pretty tools they are just a means to a more important end:I never and still don't understand how some one as sensitive as Krenov and I mean that with all respect and reverence for his ability and willingness to share what he knows, could put up for so long looking at that plywood tool cabinet. And also how he could resist putting that little extra care into the final strokes on his hand planes. I realize he left texture on for grip but why not make it look like it is finished ?Such work is fast for him and he is so good at it I would think he would be compelled to " finish " the plane or other tool.He deserves better in any case.This is way off the subject but a case that comes to mind is my iPhone. I don't "need" a cell phone, I could use what ever phone is in the building I am in, I could carry a file box or Day Timer for my contacts, a photo album for my pictures, a calendar in the day timer, an egg timer for an appointment alarm and a box of CDs. Pretty much I used to do just that. BUT every time I look at that over priced little thin flat bit of technology ( the iPhone ) it makes me smile and my life is sweeter because I have it.I feel the same way about a tool that they ran a few more grits finer on the polishers or that has a bit of engraving here and there instead of inked on logos or stickers that are half rubbed off. I still find time to cut the nice dove tails and make furniture for the boss in the kitchen.Why shun nice tools and quality work just because it is used in the work shop ? I don't get it.
roc,"Why shun nice tools and quality work just because it is used in the work shop ? I don't get it."Why indeed?I said, "The L-N chisels are a pleasure to behold. Anyone buying them should enjoy having a fine tool. Absolutely. No question."It's why I bought a Hammer sliding table saw/shaper and joiner/thickness planer. I saved a lifetime to be able to afford them. I love fine equipment.And, co-incidentally, my planes are Krenov-style wood body planes. But I DO finish them. They're mostly one tropical hardwood or another, and I bring them to a fine furniture finish with BLO and lacquer, because I like the way they look when first made! Of course, that doesn't last too long and I also like the way they acquire their "battle scars."But that is hardly the point. I don't think L-N chisels will do the job any better than most other chisels commercially available today.I plan to get one of their goose neck versions because I need one of that design, but if I can get one of another make at a seriously lower price, I probably will. But that's a whole other subject.Rich
Lawdysakes, don't say that-it means they are getting cheaper-he may either rashly rush out to buy them or if he has already bought he will be disenchanted to know that his investment has just lost 20% in value.(;)Philip Marcou
Shortly after they first became available I purchased a set of five. They were then $250. At the time I simply wanted to treat myself to a nice set of chisels. I had/have a mish-mash of older kinds and wanted a "set." Given that the LN planes are considered top notch, I expected their chisels to also be great. The first set they sent would not hold an edge. They bent over. I sent them back and they readily replaced them. The second set I still have. They came with a bevel at 30º rather then 25º. The also explained they'd made other changes to make the chisels better. These are nice tools, they hold an edge well, and they sharpen easily. But I'm not real keen on them and I think it is simply that I don't like the way the handles feel. They are sort of small for me. The handle finish is very smooth but slippery feeling. I ought to sand it all off and leave them plain. Maybe I will.
Now, your question: Are they worth the money? Yea, I think so, but you really ought to handle one first. Use it a bit if you can. If in a store, hold it like you do when chopping dovetails. That orientation is the most awkward for me. It's when I dislike them the most.
Would I buy them again? ....... I'd check out other sets first. I'd want to feel them. It's not just about perfect steel for me. I like to feel a connection with a chisel. Of all hand tools, chisels seem the most personal to me. I gotta like em or I'll simply be using them and that's not what makes me happy.
My chisel collection is a bunch of mutt orphans also, they work just fine, non cost over $5.00. I’d love a set of L-N’s but I’ll just keep hunting down the Stanley’s they were based on. I’ll spend the money on L-N planes because I believe they are a real value, but I can very easily tune up an old Greenlee chisel for a lot less.
Take a look at Japan woodworker. (Matsumura Blue Steel Chisels) You can chop nails with these things.
Gary
Swifty, and all,
This and other debates about whether the cost of this or that tool is justifiable brought to mind two sayings that I grew up hearing:
"It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools."
I take that to mean that a competant workman can accomplish a creditable job with whatever tools he has at hand. No excusing shoddy work on the basis of "this saw's no good", "dam' chisel-- won't hold an edge" etc.
"I'm poor. I can't afford cheap tools."
Said to me by my Dad after I showed him the $3.98 hammer I bought to begin my first job in a furniture shop. A day or two later, he handed me a 13oz Blue Grass hammer he'd bought for me, saying something along the lines of, "You already know you threw that four dollars away, now here, go ahead and use a good hammer."
While it is true that occasionally a good used tool may be acquired inexpensively, it is also true that good quality seldom comes cheaply from its maker. That good old chisel, if low cost, frequently will need refurbishing. It will be missing its handle, or covered in a layer of rust, or have its edge dubbed, maybe all three. If you count your time for anything, it may be more economical to just buy a good quality chisel to begin. If you derive enjoyment from bringing a tool back to usability, or believe that the old steel is better than most modern steels, or subscribe to the romantic notion that as a tool passes from hand to hand there is an intangible something that accompanies it, that you value, there is something to be said for that, too.
Hmm, it doesn't look like I helped you at all.
Ray
The gentleman (the OP) doesn't have cheap tools. It sounds to me like he has a fine assortment of some of the most sought after vintage chisels around.Accordingly, the comparisons, analogies, etc. to those who "won't come out of pocket" and "there's nothing more expensive than a cheap tool" are not apt.
Absolutely Charles.
My users are vintage Hearneshaw Bros. straight-edged firmers, and several Marples bevel edge chisels from the 1950s era. Well, and some vintage pig stickers, Sorby paring, crown butts, etc. You get the picture.
OP's chisels are more than good.
Take care, Mike
File it under 'why own copies when you have the originals?'
"The gentleman (the OP) doesn't have cheap tools. It sounds to me like he has a fine assortment of some of the most sought after vintage chisels around."
In that case he should have no difficulty in answering his own questions by either borrowing a set or buying a set of these and making comparisons: some might await his answers with interest.
Let us not speculate aimlessly .Philip Marcou
The OP is welcome to spend his money and his time in any way he wishes.
Philip,
You said: "In that case he should have no difficulty in answering his own questions " Newbies have great difficulties on Knots. Often the newbie doesn't have the background to understand the answer. They get back answers from people with multiple decades of wide experience, who understand the issue in great detail. To the experienced person, the answer is overly obvious, based on lots of experience. The newbie doesn't have that experience, and thus don't know what the basis of a good answer is. If you give him the answer, he has no way of judging if it is a good answer.This is like being asked by a child, "Where do babies come from?" This is not the time for a two hour discussion of the birds and the bees. The child couldn't understand itThe best person to learn a skill from is one who has just learned it, not one who has been doing it for 40 years. The one who has just learned it can relate to you, and to what you are going through.
My way of handling newbies is not to answer their question, but to get them thinking about how they might better understand the issue they are dealing with. Your problem, Philip, is that for a person who is so young, you know too much. :-) MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"The best person to learn a skill from is one who has just learned it, not one who has been doing it for 40 years. The one who has just learned it can relate to you, and to what you are going through."
Now, Mel. Over at NASA, were the guy's and gal's that just finished with their Masters in Aerodynamics in charge of getting those two wonderful machines to Mars? I seriously doubt that.
In my opinion (humbly speaking, of course), the best person to learn anything from is a person who is willing to take the time to first know what the students strengths and weaknesses are, and then have the patience, knowledge, and experience to teach those skills in such a way that they seem the only obvious way to accomplish the task. In my time, I've known greatly skilled and intelligent people who could accomplish any task you gave them, but couldn't teach counting to 4 to anyone. I've also known some fantastic communicators who were obvious choices for "Teacher of the Year" awards, year after year.
My mechanic is the best wrench I've ever met in my life. He can repair any problem on any car, truck, or construction equipment I bring him. I've known him for 16 years now. He won't let me hang in his shop when I drop something off for repair because "I ask too many questions and distract" him. When I ask him how he knew what the problem was, he always gives the same answer. "It was obvious!" But, Mike couldn't teach anyone how to change oil, because he has no patience.
How does that relate to this discussion?? I have no idea, but I just wanted to comment on your comment. :)
Jeff very patient, and quite the fisherman
Jeff,
"In my opinion (humbly speaking, of course), the best person to learn anything from is a person who is willing to take the time to first know what the students strengths and weaknesses are, and then have the patience, knowledge, and experience to teach those skills in such a way that they seem the only obvious way to accomplish the task. "Can't argue with that. As usual, I was overstating the case. I am easy to calibrate. You mentioned NASA. Interestingly enough, the fun folks at NASA are almost always the young ones. I believe that in the Space world, and probably in most of science, it is the youngsters who bring the fresh ideas. Woodworking is the only area in which the greatest work is done by older people. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
As somewhat of an aside, in medical training, there was a teaching principle known as "see one, do one, teach one". So relatively simple procedures such as starting IV's, doing spinal taps, inserting chest tubes, newborn circumcisions, etc. were often done exactly in that manner...the first circumcision I was offered to do was on the son of a urologist...I politely declined...more in depth procedures like surgical operations, setting fractures, etc were taught by more experienced clinicians...I think in woodworking the same principles apply...the simple stuff can be taught by those relatively new to the skill...I doubt anyone would argue they can watch Philip build a plane or someone make a Sheridan reproduction and produce similiar results..
Neil, still the novice, but approaching journeyman status
Neil,
I always wondered why you call youself Noviceneil. It is a great name. People who use self deprecating humor are almost always more than meets the eye.I fully agree with your assessment of learning and teaching. Still, there is more than a grain of truth in the fact that to teach someone, one must understand where their head is at, and that is easier for a person to do if he has recently learned the skill.I am retired and spend two half days a week at the local Woodcraft. It is a hoot. My favorite thing to do is to help newbies who have gotten themselves in some sort of woodworking jam. Sometimes they are frantic. When they ask what they should do, my answer invariably comes from the medical profession. "First of all, do no harm!" Then I get them to relax and help them come up with a solution that they can implement. By the way, that is not always the solution that I would implement, but then again, I have been woodworking since 1968. I really try to get into their heads and see how I can help them help themselves. That is not always possible, but I love the challenge. I don't work there for the $8 per hour. Thanks for the exchange of ideas.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"My favorite thing to do is to help newbies who have gotten themselves in some sort of woodworking jam."My imagination runs wild... hhhmmm a jam like not having a pair of shoes to match the hornbeam handles of their new LN chisel set, perhaps?Agonizing in front of the store's mirror asking if the cowhide shop apron makes them look fatter than the denim one? Checking pencil and ruler protrusion in the front apron pocket for that "oh-so-Frank- Klausz" look?Do tell.
Edited 12/5/2008 4:40 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I didn't know you could get shoes to match your chisels..I must have missed that issue of the Robb Report....I was almost cut to the quick when I thought that last barb from Haiti was directed my way but then I remembered sore backs and shoulders from deck building and pounding out 30 mortises by hand in one day and thought, whew! dodged another one!..
Neil, almost a yuppie except for the young and upwardly mobile part
Gosh it's Friday and in three more hours I can have a beer, or two,and except for the honey do list will be spending the entire weekend in my shop building stuff. Life is good if you don't weaken.
Edited 12/5/2008 2:16 pm ET by noviceneil
I can relate; I'm missing out on the young and upwardly mobile part too.
"I didn't know you could get shoes to match your chisels.."Sshhh, we can't let Derek know, he'll start writing a fashion column and companies will send him free shoes.
Edited 12/5/2008 3:38 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
You know I just had a thought...I'm gonna check the Dutch catalogues, see if anybody makes cocobola wooden shoes...they'd match my Ashley Iles and I could send off a couple of pics to Derek for the article you suggested. Brilliant!
Finally, something decent springs forth from my sick, twisted mind.Of course then there will be the cat-fight that ensues over how to plane said shoes without producing tearout. Sheeeiiit, we can't have tearout, nosirreee. Philip won't be far behind hawking a wooden shoe plane for a measly $2,000 US. Lataxe is dreaming of the prototype.Ain't it cool.
Edited 12/5/2008 3:55 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
You are seriously misunderstanding the concept of "see one, do one, teach one" as it occurs in medicine. It isn't as simplistic as it sounds. And it doesn't really refer to starting IVs or lumbar punctures or inserting chest tubes. Those are basic skills, actually taught in a highly repetitive way until the "student" masters them, "blind." "See one, do one, teach one" refers to much more complex tasks - an actual surgical procedure, such as an appendectomy. By the time a doctor gets to that point, he or she has had more technical education, training of manual skills and length of education than 99.99% of people on this planet. The opportunity to finally put them in use, such as actually carry out a procedure from start to finish is really more of an initiation and hurdle of anxiety than anything else. And the surgical resident who has done her first solo "appy" isn't exactly dealing with a novice when she moves to the second year and has the opportunity to supervise the next first year resident's solo effort.Novices teaching novices is equivalent to the blind leading the blind. Everything has to be painfully discovered, as for the first time. Frequently never achieving a level of quality, unless the "student" is a prodigy. A rare thing.There is no substitute for the quality of education from an experienced, talented person who has the desire and ability to teach respectful, motivated and interested students.Just how many students at the College of the Redwoods (Krenov's school) would be satisfied learning Krenov design from one of their classmates who, after a few weeks, had just finished his first cabinet that had some Krenov-like elements?Rich
Edited 12/5/2008 10:38 pm ET by Rich14
Mel
27 years ago I missed my calling. I was, am, and always shall be a space fanatic. Ever since I can remember, I wanted to go into space. When I was accepted to the college of Engineering at University of Illinois I opted, against my heart, for electrical engineering instead of aerospace/aeronautical engineering. Biggest mistake I ever made. At the time, so called counselors said there weren't nearly as many jobs as the ever growing E.E. field back in the late 70's and early 80's. Oh, well. I get my kicks from reading sci'fi and watching Star Trek.
Jeff
Jeff,
Glad you like the Space program. I too am a Space nut. I didn't plan to go to NASA, but when the opportunity arose, I jumped at it. My first job at NASA was as the Headquarters Program Manager for Aeronautical Human Factors. In two years, I got to start a Space Human Factors technology program. Two years after that, I moved completely into the Space side of NASA. I got to work with the astronauts, and with people from every one of the NASA Centers. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed that. I retired last January. I miss it, but I like the freedom, and the ability to do more woodworking. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"The best person to learn a skill from is one who has just learned it, not one who has been doing it for 40 years."Man, do I disagree with that. I think the guy who just learned may be the best cheerleader to lend encouragement. ("Hey, I DID it! If I can do it, you can too!" sort of thing.)But they guy who just learned has no depth of experience, no ability to approach the task from many different angles, no ability to compensate for variables other than those few he has just managed to control.No the best person from whom to learn is the one who has been doing it for 40 years. But that alone is not enough. He also has to be able to teach.Rich
Rich,
He also has to be able to teach.
Amen to that. I'd also add that the student needs to have the desire to learn too.
I apprenticed with what was called a Master Cabinetmaker (yeah I know, according to some folks there ain't no such thang). He was a great teacher but he never taught me how sharp is sharp.
Just my opinion but I really think one is better off learning how to sharpen inexpensive chisels before buying expensive ones. Learning to sharpen and how to use them to me is first and foremost.
Aint no chisel on this earth, no matter how expensive, is gonna make you better at using and sharpening them. I also believe that most damage is done to handtools when one is trying to learn how to use/take care of them.
From the list the OP posted I'd have to say he's got a fine set already. I'd swap my Marples for 'em.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Rich,
"No the best person from whom to learn is the one who has been doing it for 40 years. But that alone is not enough. He also has to be able to teach."If that is the case, why haven't the oldsters been able to convince the OP of this thread with the obvious answer. Check the messages of Charles, who calls himself TaunTon Macoute here. He gave the obvious answer in one sentence. SO didn't others. That had no effect on the OP that I can see. The reason is that they, as usual, see can only see the world through their own eyes, and not through the eyes of the newbie.When I learned to play five string guitar, the best hints I got were from people who had recently learned. THey could relate to me. The oldsters had forgotten. Now, if you have an oldster who is willing and capable of seeing through the eyes of the newbie, that can be enlightening.THere is an old saying.
Some people can't learn.
Some people can't teach.
Those that can't do either, teach teachers."There are some great teachers in the world, but they are hard to find. Derek Cohen, for example, is a GREAT teacher. He knows how to relate to someone who is learning. Samson does a great job of relatting to newbies. He cares, and that shows in his answers. Both of them tend to include photos when making an explanation. I like that saying, "Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime." Oldbies often try to give a short answer that they themselves understand, but which the newbie cannot understand, because he doesn't have the background. One must help a newbie along, and that requires more thought and more effort than the quick obvious answers that some people give, in a condescending manner."my two cents" anyway.
Glad you disagree. I hate to be around a bunch of people who think like me. TOO DULL.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, at least as far as these equipment threads are concerned, most people are just looking for a support group to make them feel better about buying another tool. I'd say this group has hit pay-dirt.Your obligatory pop psychology claptrap aside, one could fit in a phone booth, with plenty of room to spare, the posters who appreciate hearing the objective truth that the tools they have are fine and that all is needed is to start using them.File it under "Hon, the guys (and their "uncompensated" shills) who make, sell, demonstrate, and review tools swear to me that I need to buy X, Y, and Z."Yeah, right. And we're all shocked about the gambling going on down at Rick's.
Edited 12/5/2008 1:46 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Charles you definitely have a point that humans invariably seeks to rationalize the need to meet their reflexive desires. And most woodworkers desire nice tools. That said, there is a legitimate question that anyone might ask: is what I have good enough or is there really something significantly better about the same tool at the next (or highest) price point? It's like wondering what it would be like to drive to Grandma's in a Mercedes instead of your Dodge.
At some point you have to quit shopping for a new hammer and just hit the nail in front of you with the one you have in your hand.Hopefully, one will discover they like hammering nails more than they like shopping for hammers.Or maybe not.
Edited 12/5/2008 9:25 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
but should you buy a better nail....
sorry, couldn't resist
Or become the world's foremost authority on the history of nails.
At some point you have to quit shopping for a new hammer and just hit the nail in front of you with the one you have in your hand.
I certainly take your point (in part as it seems familar - you may have made similar ones a time or two here on Knots, though I may be misrembering ;-)), but the two are not mutually exclusive - one can hammer all day with a cheap hammer and legitimately wonder if the hammering might be better with an Estwing. And sometimes, more expensive, better quality tools, do indeed work better and easier. That's why Maydole's hammer design swept away the earlier designs that didn't feature the wedged head "technology." Certainly someone suffering with a 1975 Stanley Handyman Jack with an undulating sole and pressed metal adjusters, might well find that planing is indeed easier and the results better with a SW model, a LV or LN version. In short, it's not all or nothing. That said, I find the tool gathering as the expense of building mentality just as annoying as you.
You could do just that, Samson. And I suppose if you hammered nails all day long and had a sore elbow or were otherwise discomfited in some way by your hammer, it might make sense. My suspicion is that the audience I am speaking to have never had a sore anything due to woodworking or carpentry. Maybe a hand cramp from typing in a Visa card number, but not a sore elbow or shoulder from swinging or pushing a tool for anything that even remotely looked like an extended period of time.On the other hand, I guess everybody deserves a decent hammer - even dude woodworkers.Gentlemen, start your Mastercards. Let the shopping begin.
Edited 12/5/2008 4:03 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Sean,
You have been boozled by Charles into supposing that this is a real phenomena:
"That said, I find the tool gathering as the expense of building mentality just as annoying as you".
No doubt there are tool collectors somewhere or other who don't use them to make things. However, I doubt if there are any significant numbers of them here in Knots. On the contrary, most of us seem to enjoy tools, the things they make, talking about both and the whole 9 yards. Only old sneery-pants wants us to believe that anyone who ain't doing what he does is a mere ... well, not a Charles clone, snippy attitude and all.
And incidentally, why shouldn't folk collect tools without woodworking, if'n they want to? Shurely this is only A Heinous Sin in Charlesworld?
Finally, where is the evvidence that Charles hisself actually makes furniture? We have nivver seen any. I think he is, in fact, a teenager who is bored and seeks attention from the adults via posturing and having wee tantrums about...nothing.
Lataxe, who collects all kinda tools and makes things with them (admittedly no ball nor claw).
I've never made a damned thing in my life. I needed something to pretend to be and furnituremaker won out over thoracic surgeon.Yipppeeee....
Edited 12/5/2008 4:42 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Lataxe, I'm happy you are concerned about my state of boozlement. But I don't think I've been boozled, at least not in this instance.
Since before I ever even knew of Charles, I've rather disliked those sorts of hobbiests (and every hobby has it's share) who read everything and collect all the paraphenalia (how the hell do you spell that again?) and talk a big game, but really never do the hobby in any serious way. The golfer with the top of the line clubs and quotes from so-and-so about swing mechanics that can't break 100; the photographer with $10,000 in equipment who can't even take a decent shot of his kid at her birthday party; a cyclist with the best bike on the market who only rides it 5 miles up and down the canal path every third Sunday. And it's not that I would begrudge anyone doing these things, it's that invariably such folks put on airs and act like they are actually accomplished and rather full of themselves.
They've made a hobby out of preparing to do a hobby. In and of itself, that's fine, but inevitably they think they are actually doing the hobby they are merely preparing for, and are sort of smug about their book knowledge and acquistions to boot.
Sean - hopefully unboozled
Sean,
You must name the malpractors, especially the golfers and cyclists. Now then, Charles oft times mentions the golf. Also he "talks a big game" concerning many things, including woodwork. Shurely he cannot be one o' these paraphenalia-ists!?
Personally the "live and let live" emotion appeals more to me. In fact, one enjoys a bombastic fellow (pretender or otherwise) as they are a fine entertainment and much better than the tele. It is quite exciting to have a boozler go at you sometimes. :-)
So I must return to the question: what are the names of the Knots Pretenders? We must begin with a list of all folk who have never posted a picture of their work. No doubt there are other parameters with which to make the test, although they seem to escape me just now.
Of course, we could just apply some faith and assume that all who post are genuine in their desire to discuss, take/give information and generally indulge in sociable conversation, inclusive of agreements, disagreements, arguments and even verbal fisticuffs. Even mad blokes are sometimes informative; or stimulating, at least.
Perhaps we should merely judge ideas and concepts rather than people? Otherwise we might find ourselves up on a pedestal lecturing to the peasants below in a reedy and pedantic tone. Gawd, I have invoked Charles again!
Meanwhile I am off to look at a new plane, some chisels and everything. (No I'm not - yet).
Lataxe, who cannot take woodworking as a religion, especially when the priests and vicars start with the damnation or heretic talk; or swipe madly at the icons they disapprove of.
PS I used to let politicians annoy me (they are the Greatest of Pretenders, every one) but why waste one's emotional effort on the rascals? It never stops them when one tuts or looks up to heaven for a sign, such as a lightning bolt to do away with the buggers (which never appears).
Mark me up on the list of "Pretenders"!
I have never posted a picture of any work on FWW, but one of these days when I figure out how to, I will. However, that isn't one of my life's priorities. Anyone in north central PA is welcome to visit anytime to visit my shop or my plant (powder metal parts fabrication).
I really have made more than a few items, and I do use my tools. I also have a couple of LN chisels and planes and many times that number of vintage tools (I'm an accumulator).
T.Z.
Tone,
I suspect only one of our number is a pretender, he who pretends to a good dozen names (at the last reckoning) and who-knows what else. Otherwise I keep the faith - that is, assume all posters are well-intended, honest (as a human can be) and here for the society rather than to find victims and waste them in some sneery cybernetic way.
But then I yam a foolish old Fabianista who never can read Ayn Rand without hoots of mirth and gasps of incredulity. (Label me second-rater).
Of course, that pretender could allay my skepticism concerning his credules by posting some pics of his work or even telling us who the human being is behind the many, many aliases. Alas, I believe he will prefer to continue throwing clarts from behind his cybernetic wall, all labelled "just do it, idiot" (although the "it" is rarely elaborated upon).
Lataxe, hunting the snark.
Lataxe ol chap,
Did ye git yer woodstove runnin yet?
I been helpin Gerry with procedures regarding firing up of late. Might skip on over and keep us straight if ye have a minute or three.
Pssssst, I didn't tell him about the gasoline and oil in the squirt bottle.
Regards,
P.S. Yet!Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I hunted the snark last night and the snark bit me.
I shall remain bitten for the better part of today. Good night.
T.Z.
Lataxe old top,
I recently read Atlas Shrugged. Right at the moment, with large failing corporations being shored up by our gov't, and profitable ones being castigated by same, Ayn Rand seems to me to have been remarkably prescient.
Ray, wondering not who, but where, is John Galt?
Oh brother, you've invoked Rand.Run for cover and fear the state's apparatchnik-in-chief.
Edited 12/8/2008 11:34 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
TTM,
Hoping to get at least a growl, if not a snap, from the ol' bulldog by rattlin' his chain.
Ray
Be careful or you'll get whapped upside the head with a Marcou smoother.
How about that, cooled with a Marcou. Hemingway would have loved that.
Edited 12/7/2008 10:49 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Charles,
That Hemingway was a bit fishy, doncha think? Also, I seen him hobnobbing with that Fidel over in Cuba so he may have been unheroic after all and shurely Ayn woud have disapproved? She detested the commies, who made her life hard over in CCCP when she were a girl - as they did everyone's life of course. Then she came to the US to be an adultress and a bad author.
But I digress.
I would never do for Ray with a Marcou, should he come aquisiting illegally at the shed. I would use an old Record so as not to get the Marcou wet. Also, the Record is shurely the very definition of "a blunt instrument".
Of course, I would never whap a fellow creature at all as I am much too soft. I prefer to hug them into compliance with my wishes.
Lataxe, doomed to be an also-ran in the human race (I nivver noticed it was one).
Hey man, thanks for the information.
Ayn may have been a poor author and a bit wordy, but she had great ideas.
Napie,
I have long enjoyed and appreciated Ayn Rand, especially during my formative years. Of course, she was a bit to left wing for my taste, but then again, so was Attila the Hun. The world is becoming weak. We need a strong leader.
ARE YOU READY?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nap,
I confess to greatly enjoying Ayn Rand, so much so that I read all her oeuvre after Charles recommended her via his oblique references to Howard,some moons ago now. The enjoyment was mostly due to the fact that it's so easy to disassemble her ideas (few though they be) to see how claptrap they are. The biographies are also most interesting, although we must not let the fact that most of her ideas were generated from her breathless love of Adventure Books for Boys set in the British Raj to affect our judgement of those ideas and their coherence. :-)
So I must also confess to taking some of her basic ideas to heart, possibly because they offered a fine excuse for my undoubted personal selfishness. Herd mentality and the slavish adherence to potted systems of ideas, along with their self-appointed Authorities, have always rankled, as has the dominant self-sacrifice mantra of organised religion.
But Ayn has two fundamental problems with them hero-ideas. The first is that what she proposes is idealism, which is both (by definition) unrealisable and also corrupting to those who adopt the associated rotes and tenets. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and no doubt many other "Great Leaders" were all idealists and most happy to sacrifice millions of us second-raters in their quest to realise their fine ideals.
The second problem is related to this of course. Ayn was very much a dictator when it came to "her" ideas. One was either a slavish believer in them or a fool not to be countenanced. So the freedoms she proposes and manifests in her John Galt characters are in fact an illusion. We must all be perfect Randian humans with the perfect thoughts of Ayn or be doomed to various kinds of slavery, second-ratism and eventual starvation due to our own ineptitude. She is also, then, a social darwinist of the very worst ilk.
Still, the concepts of doing one's best and being independent-minded are perhaps worthy of the "Century of the Self". But did we really need thousands of pages of po-faced and repetitive droning to tell us that?
Lataxe, a Rand fan for all the "wrong" reasons (an anti-fan, which is paradoxically a sometime Randian stance).
Thoreau, with his rhetorical emphasis on self-reliance, was Randian before there was a such a thing, and was one of the primary shapers of American thought, with its strong orientation toward a "can-do" attitude, or meme, if you prefer.It's amazing that you have time to post so much, Lataxe - I would think that you would be down at your local school council, lobbying to introduce legislation that provided a government mandate that every soccer match (or football, if you prefer) be required to end in a draw and everyone be equally awarded a participation trophy. Thus another step to crush the evil competition-meme for ever and ever.Have a good day, citizen-of-the-world comrade!
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Edited 12/8/2008 7:56 am by EdHarrison
I think the state should confiscate Lataxe's collection of Marcou planes and redistribute them to another more talented woodworker. Relative talent to be determined by the state, of course.
Edited 12/8/2008 9:49 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Clearly the state should be involved in some capacity! Unfettered property ownership run amuck could have some serious negative societal consequences. How would the less fortunate Galgatians feel, were they to learn of the depth and degree of the Lataxe property ownership?!?! Perhaps we should appeal for a World Court ruling on this matter?
Sounds like a plan - a planned economy, that is.
Ed,
I hope I'm wrong, but I fear that the last election has revealed that a tipping point has been reached in this country- the "can-do's" are outnumbered by the "take-care-of-me's".
Ray
>but I fear that<
I shouldn't have gotten involved in political discussion, Ray - I was just trying to have a go at old Lataxe - he brings out the devil in me. But the people I served with and flew with for 20 years were mostly "can-do-ers." And the best of the people that I have worked with since are people that work hard and make their own luck. I've travelled all over the world and I've got faith in the best that America has to offer. Times will get better on the political and economic fronts. Good luck, Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,
Something is terribly wrong as we are in agreement.
Lataxe, a divvil-goader
Lataxe,
You criticise Rand's philosophy as idealistic. But, aren't all those ism's aground on the same rock? Depending on one's gov't to have our best interests at its heart is foolishly so. While the concept of individualism, and self reliance is equally idealistic, the pluralism involved must have a palliative effect on that shortcoming, don't you think? That is with all us individuals running around chasing our own sheep, we're less likely to get together and do real damage unless it is really necessary.
Ray
Ray,
One must beware of the black&white or right&wrong men. They are digital in the head and don't grasp the analogue nature of reality.
Now then - clever selfish men have taken capitalism to its logical conclusion and now deal in bonds, futures and other "products" which milk the effort and cash from the can-doers. But these capitalist men are just another type of can-doer. Since they are terribly successful at what they can-do, Ayn and all her fans must give them a cheer.
By all means do away with the state and its taxes. You will very soon find the burgler men and the wanton murderers at your door, with no policemen (State Troopers or otherwise) to bat them away. They will have your sheep, your wife and then your life. Still, you will have saved a few dollahs from Uncle Sam. Then, as there is no army (no taxes to pay them) nor airforce (no taxes) or navy (taxless) you really will get invaded by terrifying men, not just by those in the bad dreams issued by polecat news.
Them State handouts can be taken away too. This will make the feckless youths and others get out and be enterprising. Of course when they do, the enterprise is likely to be criminal and to impinge somewhat upon your freedoms. These yoofs will be capitalists outside the State rules (drug-dealing and pimping gangsters, I believe you calls them) and very can-do to the point of doing you or anyone else who gets in their way. Still this is better than giving them welfare dollars, which may now be spent on prisons instead.
As to them ideals - have as many as you like. They will remain in your head as the world is otherwise inclined and will crush your ideal willy-nilly, whatever it may be (left/right, loose/tight). Perhaps there may come A Hero who makes a small empire for a while, or even a big one. We may then all march about in awe of him. Don't forget to arrange for the vast sums of money it will take to maintain his empire though (I believe they're called taxes) and be ready for imminent failure of the whole sheebang as reality bites.
Incidentally, you will probably have to sacrifice yourself to the Hero's ambitions and ideal-chasing at some point. Still, you will be able to feel the glow of idealism as you plunge into the minefield or get caught by the tank. Sadly, the hero is unlikely to notice as he will be striding about with a firm jaw and a steely glance at the hoi-poloi who are pestering him with their foolish social needs.
****
Me, I like politicians without ideals or principles. I like them to be pragmatic and well-experienced in various modes of life, including business, real work, science, utilities and leisure, so they have an understanding of real humans in the real world. I want them to do well for the nation and its folk, as well as for themselves.
I prefer them politicians to have small need to make a fortune, as fortune-seeking will corrupt their statemanship. If they are well-inclined towards other humans and don't regard them as mere fodder to their mill or (worse) an inferior breed, this too makes me happy. I want them to stop powerful greedy folk from exploiting the rest of us, especially the children in the satantic mills. I want them to stop lazy do-nowts from lying about and sponging. I want them to keep the necessary state controls but make them efficient.
But see! How easy it is to slip into idealistic longings. Such politicians are as likely as heroic nirvanas in Colorado. This is why we must control the buggers and spread the power about. However, you are in the land of the cloudy cuckoo if you think life will be better without any state at all. You leave it all to the inherent goodwill of your neighbours if you like. Me, I've seen the neighbours and they need them social cages (me too).
Of course, I am probably deluded as "there is no such thing as society" nor "a free lunch". I must have been dreaming them then; but they seem ever so real (unlike them Utopias and Heros). Huzzah for Mr Bevin! Where is he now? (Deed and mouldering alas, along with his pragmatism).
Lataxe, a suspect foreigner from The Nanny State.
PS Have I stepped into that cafe somehow? I am leaving immediately.
Come on Lataxe, squeal like a pig.....You 'sho got a purdy mouth.
Charlie,
I knew you was that way inclined! Perhaps you were once in one o' them many jails you have over there and obtained the habit?
I'm afraid I am the bloke with the bow and arra, should anyone take me for an attractive pig. However, I understand that in the Big City, where you exist, there are blokes who will provide any service imaginable for dollahs. But what am I saying? You will already have their addresses. :-)
Lataxe, keeping an eye out for unkempt check-shirted banjoists clutching a ball and claw leg and going soo-eeee.
Yipppeeeee
Lataxe,
Oh good heavens! How did I give the impression that I am an anarchist? Indeed, I fancy myself as somewhat a middle of the roader, rather right of the center line. My concern right now, is that the bloody bus is running for the left hand ditch!
Those ideals, principles, memes, call them what you will, are important, for (in my opinion only,mind you, I'd no more try to convince you than I would the cat) without them as our sails and compass, matey, we are apt to be tossed willy nilly upon the seas of everyday life, nor have any hope nor thought of steering a meaningful course. Present existentialist company exempted, of course.
Do take care, and be sure to enjoy the show this side of the pond. Our prez-to-be yesterday spoke glowingly of the economic benefits to be obtained by a govt financed nationwide infrastructure renovation, all the while shaking his finger dispprovingly at those congrssmen wantonly still advocating for their pet pork-barrel projects! Those days are over, he says...
Ray
TTM,
Iced by a brass plane. A Short but Happy Life, that would be.
Ray
Ray (or should I call you by your secret name John),
You need only look in the mirror. There, shurely, is the Hero That Will Save The World, if you will just get on with that carving chisel I mentioned.
May I join you in your hidden vale up in Colorado quite soon now? I will keep the goats in a manner never before thought of. Alternatively, I could become an ideological pirate, as I do a good Bristol Drawl. Ah harrr!
Lataxe, a second rater so probably due to die of starvin' and banned from the vale by the unsullied and steely-eyed heros.
PS Which are the profitable companies and who is castigating them? I nivver read them newspapers so haven't got the usual paranoias and similar fears about the weird wide world and its workings.
I will keep the goats in a manner never before thought of.
Whoa! Easy, big guy ;)
I can see the headlines now:
Lataxe of Galgate - where the planes are bronze and the goats are nervous........
Lee
Lataxe,
Don't expect you to be aware of profitable businesses over there in Socialist Blighty.
Perhaps you didn't hear about our Joe the Plumber being told by our President Elect he must spread his wealth around. Or his VP Mr Biden saying that it's time for successful businesses to get on the bandwagon and pay more taxes.
And here in The US of A, much ado was made of the Oil Companies' Excess Profits. The leaders of the companies were brought before congress and investigations were initiated. Now that oil is less than 50$ a barrel, where is the outrage over the slumping prices? Who is investigating that? Meanwhile, those banks, insurance companies, and investment firms who make nothing, only move papers from one pile to another, or digital versions of same, are Too Big To Fail, and must be bailed out. Auto mfrs, bloated with union contracts, with ceos too stupid to adapt to changes in buyers' wants, are in line now with hats in hand. Can the politicos who were elected in large measure by those union members, allow a bankruptcy, and renegotiation of those contracts?
Where was our congress when those nasty water powered sawmills put all us pitsawyers out of business? Were we not too big to fail?
And how about my buggy whip factory? My brothers horseshoeing business? Where was our bailout when Henry Ford's Model T came along and put us out of business? Where was our congress then? Maybe they were too busy reading the constitution, to take any action.
Bring your goats and come to America, matey. Shiver me timbers if ye won't be welcome aboard me little dinghy. Just be sure to bring along yer Marcous; I'll make ye ship's carpenter, I will.
Avast, and ahoy,
Ray
A lot of making "live and let live" work is walking away from those that you'd rather not spend time with before you kill them. ;-) You're a beter man than I, as I have little patience for poseurs and blow hards.
I'd rather spend time with folks who actually love working wood, not just the idea of it. I did not mean to imply that there was some group here that fit the poseur bill. How would I know? I do think it's pretty easy to tell who has decent advice and commentary based upon direct experience and who is just repeating something they read in a magazine though.
I also find Charles' broadsides good fun. His caricatures are humourous - the retiree who has longed for decades to set up a state of the art shop, only to find that it was the planning and acquiring nice tools that jazzed him, not the making sawdust. Or the trainspotter types who argue about whether an extra nth degree of fleam is necessary to really get a saw to optimally cross cut planks to rough-out dimensions.
Have you ever been planing something and it's not going as well as you'd like, so you pick up another plane of the bench that ostensibly should work no better, but it does? Surely there is some empirical reasons that could be doped out, but int he heat of building something it just seems like that tool wanted to do the job and the woodworking gods blessed you with its performance. I like this more supernatural state of affairs than figuring our fleam angles and precise back bevels or this geometry and that.
Sorry to ramble.
Rambling on ...
" . . . best person from whom to learn is the one who has been doing it for 40 years. But that alone is not enough. He also has to be able to teach."If that is the case, why haven't the oldsters been able to convince the OP of this thread with the obvious answer.Because the student also has to be willing to learn."When I learned to play five string guitar, the best hints I got were from people who had recently learned. THey could relate to me. The oldsters had forgotten."Then they didn't know how to teach. "Oldbies often try to give a short answer that they themselves understand, but which the newbie cannot understand, because he doesn't have the background. One must help a newbie along, and that requires more thought and more effort than the quick obvious answers that some people give, in a condescending manner."Yes, and people who CAN actually do that, and actually have such understanding, and who also know how to let the student find SOME of the truth for himself or herself are called . . . wait for it . . . teachers.Rich
Rich,
Real teachers are the most valuable people in the world. They are as rare as hens teeth. Read Derek's website. He is a natural born teacher. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Yes. I've learned much from it.Rich
Mel, you are just not paying attention-again.Go back and read up on how to de-glaze that stone you damaged (;).
"In that case he should have no difficulty in answering his own questions ".
That statement was for the attention of the Poster Formerly Known As (many names), not for the OP who is not a newbie by any means.I addressed the OP in another message somewhat tongue in cheek.
"The best person to learn a skill from is one who has just learned it"- er, that is nonsense, fer sure. That is representative of a military attitude/method of training and from experience I can vouch that it is not nearly as effective as learning from The Sargent Major or Captain who has already been there and has nowt further to prove.
I think the best way to "handle" newbies is to listen to and understand their questions first- surely you also need to know why they experience a problem. They ask questions because they don't understand- better to give a working answer then the "thinking" can take place based on something reliable.
Actually I have noted that you rarely if ever answer an honest question unless it is something to do with continental cooking, so when I come to the States I will be sure to drop in for a snack.It seems that you favour the method known to me as Circumlocutional Obfuscation when addressing newbies which is counter-productive and should be confined to either the cafe or your adopted inner forum....
Philip Marcou
Philip,
""The best person to learn a skill from is one who has just learned it. er, that is nonsense, fer sure."You are the third person to send me a message stating that.
So the three of you must be right. You said that the OP is not a newbie. Of course he is. He is not a newbie to "woodworking" but he is a newbie to the issue he raised. I am 65 and I am a newbie in lots of areas. That is what keeps life fresh and enjoyable.In your message, you paid me the highest compliment that anyone could. They say that paying attention to someone, REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM, is the highest form of flattery. You have paid attention to me. You said "Actually I have noted that you rarely if ever answer an honest question " RIGHT ON! I find that the long term benefit of helping someone understand an issue better is the best approach. Giving them the answer works only on the simplest of issues. In complex issues, the best thing is to help the questioner figure out the answer by helping him see more of the background. This is often done by "rephrasing" the question, or by bringing up important issues TO CAUSE THE OTHER PERSON TO THINK. I have been doing that for a long time. You have your approach to life. I have mine. That is what makes the world go round. I really appreciate your noticing that I rarely answer the question. Have you realized that there is no need to answer the questtion? A dozen other people will answer it!!!! Hope that helps.
Your message brightens my day. Someone was paying attention. I amthrilled. You are an nsightful and intelligent man.Your obfuscational friend,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Philip,
There is a fine adaptation of Charles Dicken's "Little Dorrit" on the gogglebox just now. There are many weird and wunnerful charcters in this novel, including Mr Tight-Barnacle, who is Director of The Circumlocution Office. This is the Large Bureaucracy that is responsible for every aspect of Government control and is replete with forms, sub-departments and chaps who send one around and around rather than helping to answer a question, discover an answer or provide any help.
So, I believe Mel is a descendant of one of the Tight-Barnacles (the circumlocution office was full of them, as nepotism was rife in there). This is why he never answers questions and sends newbies off on various goose-chases and chicken runs. He cannot help it - it's in his Barnacle genes to circumlocute and to direct to the elsewhere department.
Lataxe, DNA analyst.
The final proof is not the chisels themselves, but what they produce. My assortment of mongrels have produced quite a number of wonderful peices that I would put up against the best any time!
I look at the value of these tools in a variety of ways.
1. Pure function for the money. You could certainly get a set of decent chisels cheaper, you could also get old chisels and get them working again and have some excellent users. So purely in terms of cost vs. utility, you could do far better, particularly if you are willing to invest some of your time. But your time should be factored in to the price of restored old tools for a valid comparison, not only the time it takes to clean and restore the tools, but the time you spent finding it. (even if you enjoy it-because you traded something of value, your time).
2. Good value for the money. Are the LNs a good value? Clearly they are. The best materials, well designed for the job they are intended to do and manufactured and finished beautifully here in the Western Hemisphere by workers who are paid a decent wage. As Mike W. pointed out, it's hard do do that for much less money.
3. Other considerations. Buying these chisels supports a North American company who cares about producing good products at least as much as making profits. Function and value are more important than mass produceability and profitability. Is this worth the extra money? It is to me.
I can get cheaper tools for sure but every time I pick up an LN or a LV tool, I am invariably happy with it.
David C
I suspect Swifty has long given up reading this thread, but to address his original point:
"Most of my chisels are a mixed breed of Robert Sorby, Greenlee, and cast steel from Buck Brothers and England.
I just received the winter flyer from Lie-Nielsen Toolworks. I noticed with jaw dropping amazement that 4 of their bench chisels are $275.00.
Is there something that I m missing? How can 4-Lie-Nielsen Chisels be worth $275.00?"
The problem here is an apples-to-oranges comparison. By definition, the price of the vast majority of used items cannot be compared to the price of the new version of the same thing. There are some rare exceptions (that are valued for their history and collectibility, not their usefulness), and it's quite likely that any particular individual may determine that the value of a used item is higher to him/her than the same new item, but that still does not make a price comparison apt.
Perhaps a much better question than "how can 4 (actually 5) Lie-Nielsen Chisels be worth $275.00?" is "is it worth it to me to pay $275.00 for a new set of 5 socket-handled chisels made in the US, or should I spend 1/3 that much or less and get a mongrel set of used chisels that I can fix up, or spend perhaps even less and get a new set of made-in-a-slave-labor-camp chisels that might be as good after I tune them up?"
Most of the posters to this thread have been answering the last question by applying their own value set to the equation. Some only want to get the work done, have the skill to retrofit older, used items to their needs, and don't care if their chisels have the aesthetic appeal of matching form. Some could care less where their tools and materials are manufactured, they consider value as the sum and total of the final cost as presented to them (the end user), and some will place value on things other than price (like where things were manufactured and by whom, what their aesthetic appeal is, etc...)
There is no right answer, except to take all of those considerations into account and decide where your values lie. It would be totally and wholly incorrect to conclude, for example, that tool collectors are crazy - paying a high premium for a set of old Stanleys is completely nuts when almost the same set could be assembled over time from the junk basket at local flea markets. It would be equally incorrect to assume that anyone that refuses to purchase a used or antique tool and instead insists on tools with no previous owners is likewise making innappropriate value judgements.
This is just my view - I will not buy a tool made in Asia if I have a choice, but that doesn't mean that I consider those that consider price alone somehow wrong - they are just making judgements based on their own values.
Swifty asked if he should buy the LNs to help him with an upcoming project that requires a lot of dovetails. Read the original post.The answer to that question, without a bunch of mumbo-jumbo bull$hit, is no. The chisels he has already spent the time and money to acquire are more than up to the task.If he had no chisels, a pure hypothetical, then of course the LN's would work fine.
Edited 12/2/2008 7:43 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
"Swifty asked if he should buy the LNs to help him with an upcoming project that requires a lot of dovetails. Read the original post."
If you read his post carefully (and I did), it's clear that the OP was shocked and amazed that a company could possibly ask $275 for a set of chisels, and (a little bit of interpretation here, but not much) was even more surprised that woodworkers gladly pay it.
My post was an attempt to explain why someone would buy an expensive set of new chisels when a set of mongrel used ones (or a set of cheap new ones) could be had for 1/10th the price - the point is that it isn't just about function (very little is).
Yep, he thinks a $69 chisel is a touch high. Probably is. But I own a few LN tools and I'm certainly not an LN basher.Swifty already has what he needs but if he wants to give the LNs a whirl then super. If he finds that they open woodworking vistas previously closed to him then it would be money well spent. Heck, he might just like how they hang in the chisel cabinet. I don't know.
D,great post.The basic problem is much bigger than Swifty's.The issue here on Knots, although most don't realize it yet, is
THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF "BEST". Maybe we should ask Bill Clinton what he means by "BEST". We dont even have a definition of "BETTER". And we never will have. Because each of us has different wants and needs, and we can't state them well, because that is the nature of the beast. Why do I like Strawberry ice cream.Why does Derek like his Blue Spruces and his Japanese chisels? I like my LNs because they do well at what I ask them to do, and because I can buy them where I work, for about half price. SO what is "BEST" for me, aint necessarily BEST or even better for you. You have different likes, wants, needs, amounts of available cash, experience with other chisels, other things you do with them, and other people who influence you.This is all very good. Swifty brought to light for the more experienced of us, that we can talk about chisels forvever, ((AND WE WILL)) but we'll never agree on which is "BEST" because althought we use the term in a RELATIVE sense rather than in the absolute sense in which it is supposed to be used. In other words, we can drag these threads on and on because we don't speake gud Engelish. ALL WOODWORKERS SHOULD BE FORCED TO TAKE ENGLISH LESSONs. That is what I learned from this thread. I already knew that we couldn't ever agree on which chisels are best for Swifty. Besides that is his business, not ours. Basically he doesn't have the background to be able the understand the answers he has been given. That isn't his fault. We all go through it. We rarely can understand the answers to questions we ask until we get a lot more background.Ain't this fun?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The issue here on Knots, although most don't realize it yet, is THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF "BEST".
Your words, Mel.
The biggest issue here on knots is that almost every single thread takes on a life of its own, rarely answering the questions of the OP's. And, even when the right answer is given by someone (in this case, by Charlie), a newbie will never be able to seperate the sweat from the $hit, and even know which answer to follow.
If I were a new woodworker with genuine questions to be answered, this forum wouldn't be the place to get them. It is, however, a nice place to have a great laugh or two.
The seemingly obvious solution is for the correct answer to be left for the OP, and all other responses be automatically forwarded to your 'open' discussion the hand tools section. If this were done, you'd be well over 20,000 posts by now.
Jeff
Jeff,
I read your message three times, looking for something to argue with. I failed. You think good.I think the big thread has just about run its course. It is near 4900. I'd like to see it hit 5000. Then sayonara.Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
English, or American (English) Mel?
These discussions bring to mind the obsessive manic depressive who, deciding to end it all by cutting his throat with a cut throat razor, spent the following span of his natural life searching for the perfect tool to do the job. Well he did find it, but then he needed the ultimate hone - for which the oil had to be right; and then water hones were introduced.
For my part, I have over the years bought yearned for tools which have yet to see the light of day, but they are part of my fantasy. If I started to rationalize I would probably age.
The moral is to do what you want and leave your wife to run the tool hire business after you go. Mine will be entombed for my second coming.
Mufti,
You are a hoot. You got your priorities straight.The newbies have a hard time on Knots because they cant figure out who is giving them good info, and who is not. The oldbies don't need any help and are just here enjoying life.Enjoy
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Is there something that I am missing? How can 4-Lie-Nielsen Chisels be worth $275.00?"
"Would these Lie-Nielsen chisels be worth the money for all my up coming dovetails?"
Only if these chisels coincide with or preferably exceed your expectations of what a set of chisels should do.
Or if the process of using them provides sufficient enjoyment/satisfaction (for you).
Not if you have a) better chisels -new, used , resuscitated, or inherited from long expired relatives of whom you have fond thoughts at times, or versions self made from Unobtainium Steel (which ofcourse will be superior).
b) little or no money in which case they are too costly (Note: Costly, not Expensive).
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