Any one have the real skinny on Lie-Nielsen bevel chisels? What’s up with the 16 week shipping delay. Any one have a set? Are they what they are cracked up to be?
Bob
Tupper Lake, NY
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Replies
<<< ..."Are they what they are cracked up to be?"...>>>
How could they be, for the price? I have a set of Marples for a fraction of the cost, and the only thing I can't brag about is that I didn't buy them from Lie-Nielsen- I can handle that-
What's up with the 16 week shipping delay
I saw a bunch of 'em in the Seattle Woodcraft yesterday. Maybe they're having trouble shipping direct to customers because they're fulfilling obligations to their channel. In any case, you may have more luck getting them from someone other than LN direct.
I have a set of the Lie-Nielsen chisels. And a set of Marples, and a set of Sorby's.
I bought the L-N chiesels earlier this year. The handles came off the first two sets but L-N was very responsive. In fact Mr. L-N himself called me to understand what the issue was. Third time was the charm. It is a press fit and the tolerances are tight.
Are they nice to hold and do they hold an edge? Absolutely. Are they worth the premium over the Marples? I guess it depends on how much you have to spend. I know a former instructor at North Bennett Street School who could carve anything in the world with a 1" Marples.
Both the Marples and the L-N are superior to the Sorby's.
If I had the $$, I would get them. If I felt it was too much, I would be very happy with my Marples and my new (plane, router, weekend away, etc.)
Stephen J. Gaal
Presumably, a professional or active hobbyist would not wait four months for a tool he or she needed. Anybody placing orders for delivery that far out must already have some useable chisels. So that begs the question - why bother?
That's a delivery schedule on a tool collector could tolerate.
Edited 12/12/2005 2:14 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss... if you'll pardon my saying so... I beg to differ.. Tell ya why...
For me, finding decent chisels has been a learning path that closely parallels that of finding decent planes... Buying 2nd hand has a ton of pitfalls to catch the rookie while buying new runs the risk of buying from a manufacturer that has become content to rest on past laurels...
It took me a while struggling with tools that simply weren't up to the task to realize that it wasn't simply my being at the sharp end of the learning curve that was causing probs, the tool was partly to blame too... That blame went out the window the first time I found the guts to place an order with Lie-Nielsen... With one stroke, my learning curve became a whole lot flatter through the simple expedient of working with a tool that was fit for purpose...
I dare say I'm not the only guy here who has to fit woodworking around the need to hold down a full time job... that job putting its own demands on spare time to go tool-hunting... Similarly... I'm not the only guy here who doesn't have cash to spare on speculative purchases; money spent on a tool that isn't capable of doing the job is money that I can't afford to waste...
Having learned through the plane learning curve that Lie-Nielsen was a company that i could set faith in re the build quality and performance of their tools, placing an order for their chisels was a no-brainer... If it means I have to wait a while then so be it; their full order book reassures me that I'm not the only guy who feels the same way...
Their planes have demonstrated that Lie-Nielsen produce tools that can be relied upon to perform reliably irrespective of how hard I work them... I've every faith that their chisels will perform exactly the same way....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
There are other suppliers that make serviceable chisels that are available for delivery today.
I would dribble my left gonad down Fifth Avenue in NY City before I'd let brand loyalty get in the way of woodworking.
I'd be more than thrilled to chop and sharpen until my fingers bled rather than make a career out of waiting for the UPS man.
I've met and worked with a lot of fine woodworkers over a career that has spanned decades. I can't remember a single one of these fine craftsman that planned a chisel purchase four months in advance, or one that would tolerate such an absurd delay.
Get a grip and get some perspective. Get some chisels and get back to work.
Craftmanship is about using what you have today to finish the project lying on the bench. There will ALWAYS be a better tool, another tool, a more aesthetic tool.
Edited 12/12/2005 6:23 pm ET by BossCrunk
<<I would dribble my left gonad down Fifth Avenue in NY City before ...>>
Get a grip, there are better things to do with gonads.
I always get a little suspicious when someone starts preaching about what everyone else should do. I can't claim to have that kind of omniscience, so I generally cut people a little slack. Try it some time.
As for LN chisels- I have them, and I like them.
You can argue either side of this issue (that's right, like most debates there are at least two sides to this one).
1. You can get good chisels for less money, and be very pleased with the results. But...
2. Some old stand-bys, such as Marples have had their problems with QC lately. I have an old set of Blues and like them fine- but others who have newer versions (which are I think, shorter) have not been pleased with the steel.
3. LN had some initial issues with QC, but they stand behind their tools in a way that other manufacturers seldom do.
4. The ergonomics of LN and their edge holding ability are pretty good. I like them for dovetails and fine paring. But...
5. They are expensive. That said, whether you buy LN or some other good quality chisel, you will do yourself a favor by not being limited by the tool. The cost is there, but it's a life-time investment, and chisels are a frequently used tool. The old Stanleys (made 50-100 years ago) can be picked up at flea markets for reasonable $$ and sharpen up pretty well. If you don't mind lapping them and making a handle occasionally, they should do nicely.
5a. You are better off buying fewer, high quality tools than more, cheap tools.
6. As for waiting, I bought my LN chisels ~ 10 years after my old trusty Blues, I suspect many others will do the same. I don't mind waiting a few weeks for a tool that I'll have for the rest of my life.
7. Why is it that so often those who complain most bitterly about the loss of quality manufacturing in the U.S. complain just as loudly about companies like LN?
Just my 2p,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I would dribble my left gonad down Fifth Avenue in NY City before I'd let brand loyalty get in the way of woodworking.
c'monn Boss... gimme credit for having a little bit of sense... Right now I've more projects in the pipe than I know what to do with... seems like for every one I progress, much less complete there's another 3 to take its place... And none of them are at a standstill for a lack of proper tooling I might add... Right now I need a 4 year supply of 48 hour days... A few less 7 day weeks at work wouldn't go amiss neither...
Right now my tools are adequate for the level of experience I've reached... It'll be a while yet before I'm ready to try taking things up a level, I can afford to wait a while. Besides... if it was instant gratification I was looking for, I'd be working with power tools, not handraulics...
As for suitable alternatives, that may well be the case over your side of the pond... over here the market is full of indifferent quality. I fail to see the point in buying a tool that isn't fit for purpose straight out of the box and I'll be damned if I'm gonna give my hard earned to companies that think its fine to pass on sloppy workmanship and lousy Q.C. to the end buyer... It takes me all my time to fix my own mistakes without adding to that by buying someone else's...
I'm not trying to lay a soap-box lecture on you... everybody goes through a cost v's benefit loop before buying anything... I've simply given the reasons behind mine....
edited to add.... the set I'm waiting for isn't my first set of L-N's... if they're anything like the others they'll be worth waiting for...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 12/12/2005 8:21 pm by Midnight
<<Any one have the real skinny on Lie-Nielsen bevel chisels? What's up with the 16 week shipping delay. Any one have a set? Are they what they are cracked up to be?>>
A more precise question might be: how will LN chisels make you a better woodworker?
A more precise question might be: how will LN chisels make you a better woodworker?
Amen.
Using one of the ubiquitous FW contributing editors as an example, say Garrett Hack, does anybody really believe his dovetails all of a sudden wouldn't fit or the shoulders on his mortise and tenons would go to crap if they were cut with a Blue Chip instead of a set of Barr chisels?
About the only thing an average set of chisels does is put the craftsman on a slightly more frequent honing schedule. If somebody is looking for magic-from-the-UPS-man then I'm afraid they will be sorely disappointed.
The skill in the craft is mostly in design, the ability to lay out a project, and generally the ability to conceptualize how things fit together, and in problem solving (understanding what is crucial and what is not). If somebody can do that, the actual execution of joinery and general tool wielding can be learned in a month or less.
The ownership of a super-fine kit of tools too often these days is directly proportional to one's general lack of talent. The ability to wield a checkbook does not make one a craftsman. A better judge of how serious somebody is about woodworking is their investment in stock for projects instead of glistening under-used tools and fancy tool display projects. I love a guy who isn't afraid to throw a chisel in a nailed together drawer hung underneath a well-used bench.
If somebody is working at a blistering pace and having to stop to touch up a Blue Chip or a Narex is truly slowing them down, then by all means they should bail into the LN units or, even better, an offering from Barr.
Old timers who worked outside the shop were typically more concerned about edge holding and edge toughness (as opposed to brittleness). A chipped edge, when one is away from the grinder, is a little problematic. These issues are of somewhat less importance to the craftsman at the bench since one assumes the grinding wheel and an array of stones are always at the ready. I never fail to chuckle at the bloke who brags about 'superior steel' and a $500 power-hone system in practically the same breath.
One needs to understand the problem one is trying to solve first. Or if there is even a problem that needs solving.
In a previous post, somebody mentioned something to the effect that a pedestrian brand of chisels was 'holding them back.' Those circumstances are rare in my opinion. I've certainly never seen a premium chisel (or any other hand tool) turn a guy who was all thumbs into a master craftsman. As I've mentioned before, I've seen premium steel save A LITTLE time at the stones, but in all truthfulness that's about it. Average steel can usually take a fine edge, it just might not hold it quite as long.
I have nothing against LN. I have their No. 66 beader and 40 1/2 scrub plane. Fine tools both of them. At the time I bought them they were available for shipment and I needed them. It made more economic sense to buy new than to haunt the antique tool dealers for the out of production Stanley equivalents. If the wait had been sixteen weeks I would have made other arrangements.
From Stephen Gaal's post above:
I know a former instructor at North Bennett Street School who could carve anything in the world with a 1" Marples.
I doubt there's much hyperbole in that statement.
Everybody who loves buying and displaying tools more than they love working wood should type this one sentence and tape it on their workbench or fold it around their credit card.
Edited 12/13/2005 11:42 am ET by BossCrunk
Don't worry, Boss. I got your point. That little bit of dribbling in NY made me just about lose it.
LMAO!
Just to throw my nickel's worth in:
<<Using one of the ubiquitous FW contributing editors as an example, say Garrett Hack, does anybody really believe his dovetails all of a sudden wouldn't fit or the shoulders on his mortise and tenons would go to crap if they were cut with a Blue Chip instead of a set of Barr chisels?>>
Obviously not, but better quality tools WILL make the job faster, easier, and will most likely result in a better, cleaner job -- within a given skill level -- than would result with poorer quality tools.
<<The ownership of a super-fine kit of tools too often these days is directly proportional to one's general lack of talent. The ability to wield a checkbook does not make one a craftsman.>>
I certainly won't argue that good tools will (automatically) turn one into a good craftsman, but I will assert that bad tools will hinder any craftsman. Yes, a skilled craftsman can and will make do and will do a much better job with the bad tools than a tyro would, but you couldn't reasonably expect that skilled craftsman to do his best work with shoddy tools. I would also argue that good tools pave the way for a less-skilled craftsman to become a more-skilled craftsman, simply because the tool does what it is supposed to do; the worker doesn't have to fight the tool. Any guarantees? Of course not.
<<In a previous post, somebody mentioned something to the effect that a pedestrian brand of chisels was 'holding them back.' Those circumstances are rare in my opinion.>>
Here's an example of exactly that:
Before I knew any better, I made the grand mistake of buying, new in the store, a set of early-80s vintage Sears Craftsman bench chisels. As I recall, they were $30 or $40 for the set of four. I used these for several years off and on, getting so-so results, at best. Since this was at the beginning of my woodworking "career" (I am a hobbyist woodworker), I attribute at least part of the quality (or, mostly, lack thereof) of the results to my then lack of skill and knowledge.
Fast forward several years. Purchase of medium grade ($25 - $50 per) Japanese chisels. The difference was night and day. Instead of literally sharpening the Sears chisels about every 5 - 10 minutes, the edge on the Japanese chisels lasted for a couple of hours (i.e., a couple of hundred cutting strokes vs a couple of dozen cutting strokes, at best). The difference in the hardness and quality of the steel was blindingly obvious.
Did the Japanese chisels make me a better woodworker? Yes, in fact they did; I was no longer fighting the tool, and that allowed me to concentrate on what I was working on; furthermore, the Japanese chisels actually performed as they were designed to perform; something I can't say for the Sears chisels, other than on a VERY basic level..... More skill and knowledge, of course, also plays a big role here. I also have higher expectations of my tools than before. Earlier, I was willing to put up with questionable quality tools, mostly because I didn't know any better. I know better now, and refuse to waste my time or money on junk; i.e., I am willing to fork over the dinero to get the quality of tool that fits my needs (like that old saying: better to have a few good tools than a lot of bad tools....), and if that happens to mean waiting for them to be manufactured and delivered, so be it.
Even though instant gratification is the "in thing" these days, there is something to be said for having the patience to wait for those things that worth waiting for. This falls directly in line with the entire reasoning behind using hand tools in the first place: if you're in a hurry to get the project done or if you're doing production work, use power tools. If you want to do the best you can, enjoy the process, and don't necessarily have a deadline, then hand tools are entirely appropriate. (Obviously this line of reasoning does not necessarily apply if you are doing wood work for a living and have customers to keep happy and bills to pay....)
I can relate similar experiences with other tools (planes immediately come to mind, here....), but you get my drift. The education was a bit expensive, but it's one that will not be forgotten.....
My points are:
1) You generally get what you pay for and you certainly pay for what you get. There's a real good reason why LN planes and chisels cost significantly more than current manufacture Stanleys, Anants, etc. Quality costs money.
2) LN is by no means the only manufacturer that has a waiting list for some or many of their products. Quality takes time.
3) If someone is willing to wait a couple of weeks/months, for the tools they need/want, so what? It's their decision -- one that they no doubt have carefully weighed and decided was the right one for them. If you choose not to wait for an item, that's your perogative. Either way -- wait or not -- it's ok with me....actually, I really don't have much to say about it: it's not my decision or my wait, so I see no reason to denigrate someone for either decision.
4) Tools don't make the craftsman, but they certainly influence how well, how quickly, and how easily the craftsman can do the job. Above a certain threshhold of quality, just about any tool will do the job in the hands of a skilled craftsman. Below that threshhold, it's questionable, at best.
Thanks for some thought-provoking comments.
Tschüß!!
Edited 12/13/2005 5:28 pm ET by pzgren
I largely agree and in one of my earlier posts in this thread I established a 'floor-level' of quality, if you will, with the use of the term 'serviceable.' Any chisel that literally needed sharpening every five to ten minutes does not meet any reasonable person's definition of serviceable. That said, I could cut perfectly acceptable joinery with such a chisel but as you said the work would be slow and not quite as fun, all other things being equal.
I don't agree that a careful woodworker's work would be any less "clean" if a lower grade tool is used. Again, assuming a tool is not pure junk I think a competent effort would not be distinguishable from an effort that featured a very expensive set of tools. I don't believe the same thing to be true about power equipment but that's a discussion for another time.
However, never forget the woodworker who can't bear the thought (regardless of how well the unit is still cutting) of a chisel's edge being slightly less sharp on the third drawer's dovetails than it was on the first. At that point, I'm just hoping my shop music selection for the day fits my mood. I'm not stopping the momentum to hone unless it can't be avoided. Others aren't so inclined. I don't think it is possible to read online woodworking forums and not come away with the conclusion that the discussion of steel quality and honing has not become pure obssession with a lot of people. Those who can do, those who can't become experts on tool steel and sharpening methodologies.
It would be a rare event indeed if I found myself on a sixteen week waiting list for a common hand tool. A Ferrari maybe, a set of chisels I doubt it.
I am not the type of woodworker that keeps LN afloat, nor am I their target market. Affluent hobbyists are *mostly* doing this bit of heavy lifting.
Edited 12/13/2005 6:12 pm ET by BossCrunk
<<However, never forget the woodworker who can't bear the thought (regardless of how well the unit is still cutting) of a chisel's edge being slightly less sharp on the third drawer's dovetails than it was on the first....I'm not stopping the momentum to hone unless it can't be avoided. Others aren't so inclined. I don't think it is possible to read online woodworking forums and not come away with the conclusion that the discussion of steel quality and honing has not become pure obssession with a lot of people. Those who can do, those who can't become experts on tool steel and sharpening methodologies.>>
Well said. Each approaches woodworking from their own perspective and with their own goals and methods, etc. For me, the ultimate goal is the end product, made as well as I can at the time of building. From my perspective, part of the fun of woodworking is the process of designing and building the piece, and learning the more subtle techniques that make my woodworking more efficient, effective, and "better."
On tools, I am a firm believer that a tool should do what it is supposed to do; that it should be an extension of the hand, arm, etc. Do I get anal about the brand of tool? Only to the degree that a particular brand has proven to be reliable, of good quality, and actually does what it is supposed to do (without having to fight the tool or spend hours working on it to get it to the state that it should have been in when it left the factory....). I've seen too much poor end result, compliments of the "lowest bidder" mentality.... I like, and own a number of, LN tools for precisely that reason: they work like they're supposed to. I consider it a sad state of affairs that one must spend a comparatively large sum of money to get a tool that actually does what it is supposed to do. Stanley, amongst others, used to understand that, but no longer...
Like most woodworkers, I'd rather be using the tool to do something to the wood than sharpening it, honing it, grinding it, polishing it, etc. So, like you, I hone chisels and plane irons when I have to; obviously, one of the advantages of good quality is that you have to do that less frequently than with poor quality.
As for the "steelologists" and the "sharpeningologists:" more power to them. I don't happen to share their passion for the intricacies of steel composition, sharpening methods, etc. But, if they're willing to share their knowledge, I'm willing to learn from them whatever part of their knowledge I find useful, and integrate it into my own skills/knowledge to become better at woodworking, etc. I think that there's plenty of room for all flavours of interest; besides, if one is not interested in a particular subject or posting, it can always be skipped.
<<It would be a rare event indeed that I found myself on a sixteen week waiting list for a common hand tool. A Ferrari maybe, a set of chisels I doubt it.>>
I could see myself on that waiting list for a Ferrari, too; too bad that the only Ferrari I'll ever be able to afford is 1/12th scale, made of plastic, and has to be assembled and painted.....
Tschüß!
Hope to shout man, you are one angry man. Chill. But I gotta admit, you make an exciting read.
Just sit back and enjoy.
I have them. I was one of the first to receive them having placed my order months before they were ready. There were problems with the first ones. I've posted regarding this before....do a search. They sent replacements and they work simply great. They are the tools that I suspected they'd be.
Hi, a few thoughts...
I don't own a set...yet, but have spoken to a number of folks about them. If you look at Lonnie Bird's bench, he holds in great reverence the old Stanley 750 socket chisels. These are the tools that Thomas L-N based the design of the new chisels on. David Charlesworth again supports the pedigree of the Stanley design, but also believes that the A2 steel provides a significant advantage. There is no question David is a stickler for detail, but if you are looking to operate at a cutting edge (pun intended) level as a craftsman, I hold his thoughts in high regard. Garrett Hack travels with a set of Red handled BAhco's, a Swedish chisel that I don't think is readily available anymore. Interestingly, those are the chisels one finds on Krenov's bench.
I have a set of Two Cherries. They have many endearing qualities, but they are without question a great big royal pain in the #### to prepare. The L-N's are little work to tune, as I watched my teacher tune up an early prototype out of the box in a matter of minutes.
If I was buying a set of chisels today, I'd buy the L-N's, no question.
Well golly gee whiz...we're being censored with little symbols!
The Bahco chisels are available here if anyone is interested. I have no idea of their quality; they claim to be designed for work site condtions.
http://www.builderdepot.com
These were originally sold under the Sandvik name. Great steel. Mine were stolen and I had to replace with Blue chips with "easily sharpened" buttery soft steel. The Sanviks were MUCH better. I am saving up to get a set of Bahco chisels
I am glad to hear you say that. I've got a set of Sandvik chisels that I bought in the early eighties in San Diego. It was back when I only used power tools and mostly used chisels to open cans of paint and operations such as that. I have only recently started to clean the Sandviks up, planning to put new handles on them.
I'd be happy to answer you when you can explain how a $15 chisel will leave me stranded on the expressway 500 miles from home.
Lousy analogy, friend.
Edited 12/13/2005 9:46 am ET by BossCrunk
Maybe you are missing my point here. You don't need a brand new car to have a reliable vehicle. My 1988 S-10 is the prime example. But, if you so desire to drive a new vehicle you are going to wait until your dealer gets it just the way you want it. Perhaps it is time that this guy(original poster) gets some new chisels, regardless of the wait and the price. Will a cheaper marples do the job, yes. Will the more expensive L-N chisels look cooler to him on his bench? Probably. Just like a new vehicle looks better in your yard than an old piece of sh*t.
Does that clear it up for you.
A couple of questions:
(1) What were the initial quality problems with the LN chisels?
(2) Why exactly is there a 16 week wait time? Is it because there is such a huge demand? Or are they still trying to straighten out the quality issues?
Early units had bad steel (no kidding) and ill-fitting handles. These are socket chisels and as somebody else mentioned they are a press fit. A lot of people, who don't know poop from Shinola, thought the gap between handle and socket was a defect (which of course it is not). That said, they did have some legitimate problems with fit.
Part of the beauty of a socket chisel is that they can be used without a handle should one break in the field or if the owner doesn't have the time to turn a new one. Your wooden mallet might suffer a bit but that's no big problem. I have one that I've never put a handle on. Works fine. In fact it's easy to get into tight spots in a piece already glued up.
The seemingly innocuous nature of the question(s) that opened this thread resulted in an interesting fire- fight, during which, amongst other things, it was confirmed to me that Sheraton and Hepplebaby were practising cabinet makers as well as great designers.It's a good forum. Even some measly chisels can generate some enlightening entertainment-it may even be better to concentrate on knots rather than ogle in the Members Only arena.Philip Marcou
Well, if a hodge-podge of chisels are good enough for Richard Jones, that's good enough for me. We don't subordinate our judgment to other woodworkers, necessarily, but a reality check is rarely a bad thing.
If you can draw a line on wood with a pencil and cut and pare to that line you are three quarters the way there. Use what you have at hand and don't make excuses.
Boy, if a little longer edge retention was even remotely close to what it takes to be a great woodworker we could all buy our way to master status. At the end of the day, that's about all a premium chisel offers - a tad longer between honings. Please don't talk about balance and feel. Coming from anybody other than bona fide masters this is nothing but an affectation. If Richard can cut Nejiri Arigata with a plastic handled Marples then you certainly don't need a $50 chisel to chop a plain-Jane through dovetail. And if you think your Marples are 'holding you back', you are quite simply not being honest with yourself.
Most projects are doomed or successful before the first tool is even picked up.
Buy average, useable chisels and spend the rest on gallery admissions or your library and make a study of the craft. Maybe tuition to North Bennett Street.
The original question asked about a sixteen week delay. After umpteen posts, it is still a ridiculous wait.
Edited 12/18/2005 8:42 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
With all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more. My chisels are a hodge podge of tag sale and hand me down cheap stanleys along with a few good japanese and Sorbys. I will get a set of LN's eventually...because of there quality and craftsmanship. I want to support good craftsmans no matter how long it takes...or what tools they use to produce their products.
It's the same reason I make furniture rather than buy from Ikea...it's not just the functionality..it's the quality, durability and skill required to make it also.
BossCrunk
As far as the 16 week wait goes, I couldn't agree with you more. I wouldn't wait 16 days!!
And, for the record, (mine, anyway) I've enjoyed the sparring in this particular thread more than any other since the change over. Well done!! I look forward to your future posts with unwielding anticipation.
Merry Christmas,
Jeff
Boss, if I knew what a Nejiri Arigata was (or is) maybe I'd know if I cut could cut it!
I know there was a thread somewhere here all about it or them recently, and I'm sure I could do a bit of Googling to find out too, but I'm not that driven to discover all about Nejiri Arigata.
Anyway, in the end if the tools you've got are effective that's the main thing. My hodge-podge of chisels suits me fine, but it would be nice to have a collection of beautiful name brand chisels. But to do that I'd have to ditch a working lifetimes worth of collected chisels. The chisels work and that's what concerns me, even if I do have to sharpen a bit more often than another brand.
A significant minority part of my whole tool collection I got for very little or were gifts from retiring or retired cabinetmakers and the like who wanted their tools to go to someone that understood their value, would look after them and use them. They didn't want their tools to be thrown out by family members after they died. I got a couple of Norris planes this way, and a prized Spiers smoothing plane too which I use regularly.
If I now was new to furniture making and perhaps a reasonably wealthy amateur I think I might well aspire to acquiring some of the best name brand hand tools I could. It certainly eliminates the possibility that your tools aren't up to the job. On the other hand I do have a working lifetimes worth of necessary tool collecting in my background, and probably tens of thousands of practical hours building furniture so I'm pretty adept at getting whatever I've got to work with to work good enough for me. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
They're your famous twisted dovetails.
A fine Japanese joint made even more notorious when cut with a $7 Marples and a no-name Sheffield back saw.
Edited 12/18/2005 12:40 pm ET by BossCrunk
I don't know that I want to wait 16 weeks for a set of chisels, nor do I think they alone would make me a better woodworker. I also don't know that $50 is super expensive for a tool that works well and lasts a life time. I think your main point is the denial of some of us (especially amatures) who try to buy talent. And I think you're right on target. I have been guilty of salivating over and then purchasing tools that I didn't have the skill to put to good use. But I think a lot of us who don't ww for a living, and aren't able to spend nearly the time we'd like doing it somehow get caught up in building our shop of the future for the day when we will be able to put them all to good use. Not that this is a crime or a sin, because I can think of worse vices than tool collecting. I used this example a while back, but you would probably laugh or call me an idiot if I told you how much money I have wrapped up in fishing equipment, and does it make me a better fisherman? That is debatable, but it sure beats using a cane pole. I don't run out and buy every new lure thinking it's going make me a better fisherman, but the hard line stuff, rods and reels, I tend to treat myself, and I still own and use every one I have ever bought...plus the stuff I got from gramps.I love LN's tools, and have about 10 of them. However, I haven't bought one of them (no I didn't steal them). That is generally what I ask for for gifts. I have been assembling a collection of chisels, antique, new Sorbys etc. as I have needed them. This stems from my experience with what I thought was a decent set of Buck Bros. chisels I bought a few years ago. They said MADE IN USA. I figured, how bad could they be if they are made in the good old USA. The answer is, they suck. When used on anything harder than a 2 x 4 the edges literally look like one of those tools you use to spread tile adhesive. I used them to chop table leg mortises in white oak and the edges were literally folding over onto themselves. I don't know if I will ever buy a set of LN chisels because I think my hodge podge set will be good enough. But I can't say I would return them if received as a gift. But I think that in the case of chisels, there are enough alternatives. The planes that LN makes and their saws I think are in a class by themselves for the money. And they really don't have any competition, with all due respect to LV. But how hard is it to pick up one of the thousands of old chisels out there and put a new edge on it?
Well Boss, now I know what it is I guess I do know that I can hack it out it, ha, ha. Here's a link to a description of the execution for anyone that's curious. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
double twisted....???? damn thing looks positivly perverse !!! ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Perverse it may be Mike, but that suits my nature I guess. Incidentally some of the shots in the description linked to show me using some of those nothing special but perfectly usable UK supplied Stanley blue and/or black handled chisels.
One or two shots have got me hacking away with one of those Independence dovetail saws which I purchased prior to Lie-Nielsen taking over production, so not all my tools are cheap no-name items. I didn't think the $105 which I think I paid for that saw was expensive in the whole scheme of things as, after all, I depreciated it and wrote it off as a cost of being in business. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Perverse it may be Mike, but that suits my nature I guess.
See what happens when yer over-exposed t Hinglish beer...????? ;)
The chisels didn't escape my attention... and I thought I recognised the saw too... Confirmation (as if any were needed) that both Boss and myself are right... decent results are a product of a tool that's good enough in the hands of someone who knows what to with it...
Do they really fit straight from the saw..???Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"Do they really fit straight from the saw..???"
Yep, Mike, but if it's been a while since I last did them I usually like to have a bit of a practice go first. The point I find is that if they don't fit straight off the saw then there's generally a lot of fiddling about with the result getting less and less satisfactory, and the whole exercise takes far too long.
It's much the same with regular dovetails. Commercially acceptable speed of execution in business doesn't allow for the worker to play about trying to get the joints to fit by trimming with chisels and so on. That's wasted time that should be employed doing the next job.
Admittedly, it takes time to develop the skill but every furniture maker can develop the speed necessary given time and practice, and commercial pressure does force the worker to develop speed and skill. These sorts of pressures aren't faced by the amateur woodworker, but there's no reason at all for the amateur to bow their head to the professional because the motivation for doing such work is different.
In a similar way I've kept my own business accounts for many years and I'm now pretty nifty around the requirements of small business accountancy. I use a computer programme called QuickBooks Pro which seems to work pretty well for small to medium businesses and I've learnt as I've gone along-- the programme actually taught me a lot about small business accounting as I went. However, I've not got the knowledge and abilities of a professional accountant yet I don't feel inferior to one.
I guess I'm saying I'm a sort of reasonably willing 'amateur' bookkeeper and I've learnt just about enough about accountancy to avoid being totally bamboozled by an accountant. On the other hand I don't think I'd want to work as an accountant either-- not really my cup of tea. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Commercially acceptable speed of execution in business doesn't allow for the worker to play about trying to get the joints to fit by trimming with chisels and so on. That's wasted time that should be employed doing the next job.
ahhhh... I hear ya... there's parallels in my own job... I'll try to get my head round how Quickbooks helps yer dovetailing once I recover from spending 2 days over your side of the border... talk about a system shock...... lol ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
There are several fallacies in your argument- selection bias for example. Let's say for a moment that a particular, skilled WWr has a "hodgepodge" of chisels in his tool chest. He picked them up at different times and uses them as he needs them. So... why are these the chisels he uses? Because the ones that are too soft or too brittle either don't survive, or he doesn't hang on to them. Some of the ones on hand are perhaps old Blues with good Sheffield steel... some are Stanley 7xx... some are from other makers. In any event it is likely that Darwin is playing a role- bad tools break, are given away or or tossed- good ones survive, are repaired and restored. If you have hodgepodge of such chisels, you don't know need LNs.
If, on the other hand you don't have 20 or 30 years to assemble such a collection, get the LNs. 16 weeks seems like a short enough time.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
One just lays hands on some decent chisels when one needs them without a sixteen week wait and without paying $50++ per chisel. It doesn't take years. The Darwin analogy misses the mark widely, IMO. Certainly, a woodworker with years of experience under his belt has accumulated some 'favourites' however that doesn't mean that his woodworking was fruitless during the years of accumulation. You also seem to be assuming that the LN models would be 'instant favourities' and to that I would direct you to those on the bleeding edge who were the first to buy.
Natural selection takes time. Coming up with four or five chisels worth using does not.
As I said before, there is always another tool, there is always a better tool. At some point the tool catalogs have to be put away and woodworking accomplished.
Edited 12/19/2005 1:11 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss, what is all this fuss about chisels??
I was tempted to post a pic of my life -time motley collection of notreally a lot of chisels, some of the more favoured ones with replaced wooden handles of the flavour at the time, but decided NON.
By the way, there are one or two, notably Japanese (modern) that tend to vist the sharpener noticeably more often than the old Eskilstunas (sp?) and Marples....Strange how one notices these things.Philip Marcou
Does that clear it up for you.
Not really.
You still can't drive a chisel and regardless of how expensive a chisel is you can't pick up leg with one.
Spending too much money on such a pedestrian implement is silly. It's like buying the finest toilet bowl brush money can buy. The buck fifty model will get the toilet just as clean.
1988 S-10? I'd quit worrying about chisels. I at least hope your wife and kids are in something with airbags and anti-lock brakes.
B C
OK. You've finally peaked my interest. It's time to chime in here, even though I know it will fall on your supremely sawdust-filled ears. I've had the wonderful opportunity on several occassions to meet several of the guys who post here regularly. We all come from different walks of life, and with varying degrees of interest and skill level within the wonderful little world of woodworking. I have been able to figure out one thing about MOST of us, and that is we pretty much all fall into 1 of 2 categories;
The Tool Collectors
The Minimalists
From my stand point of view, neither represents a good or bad trait in woodworkers, and neither represents the level of skill we posess.
I've been creating sawdust now for almost 30 years. It started out as a necessity, as I couldn't afford to purchase functional furniture when I was young and penniless. It grew into a hobby, as I became hooked. And, it has turned into a pretty nice business for me as more and more satisfied customer's referred me to the friends and family. I'll probably never be able to carve like my buddy Lee Grindinger, or have furniture shown in galleries like Richard Jones (slainte), but that's not really something that's important to me. I feel pretty good about the pieces of furniture and the built-ins that I've created. Enough on my half-assed resume!
As I began to build my ever expanding collection of tools to work wood with, I went through the same changes that most have. I started out with inexpensive power tools, and very quickly learned that these tools have limitations. Ripping 10/4 maple with a Delta contractor's saw was, for me, and exercise in futility. I found myself very quickly replacing my c-saw, 14" bandsaw, 12" benchtop planer, and 6" jointer, with much larger and more powerful tools. I recovered only a portion of the $$ spent on those tools, and now wish I had a forum like this to ask questions before I 'wasted' my money on that junk, and went straight to cab. saw, 36" bandsaw, 12" jointer, etc...............
I went through the same trepidations as I began to fall in love with hand tools, as my skill level rose high to create joinery and the like without having to power up. My first bench plane was a Stanley #5. After reading Hack's book on handplanes, I tuned it up. About 6 hours and a flat sole and sharp blade, I was finally able to create shavings like I read about. I have since restored an almost complete set of Bedrocks, averaging probably 10 hours of work on each. This finally brings me to my point!
Many of the woodworkers who come here want to avoid buying the crappy old tools that require a lot of work to use. They have full time jobs, make decent, or excellent $$$, and want to buy tools that require very little work so that they can begin learning the skills to make furniture like the obvious professionals. They hope and dream of being able to sit way up high on their pedestal, as you do, and, while glaring down at the wee folk below, bellow out how they can make fine dovetail joinery with a piece of flint epoxied to a stick.
Your posts above are hilarious to me, because I'm in the Tool Collector crowd, but I DO know how to make nice furniture and cabinets with my tools. I have several friends who frequently stop by my shop for advice or a quick lesson on how to do something. They know my door is always open. I tell them all to buy the best quality tools that they can afford, and buy them ONCE!!!!!!!! My bedrock's now sit in their quaint little display case, never to take a shaving again. I've replaced them with LN planes, spokeshaves, etc..... and think that they were an excellent investment, because someday my grandchildren, who aren't even born yet, will get them, and they'll probably be worth more $$$ then.
So, next time you want to rip into people for wanting to buy nice tools for making shop jigs and tool cases, why don't you just turn off the computer instead!
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Jeff
BTW, if you're gonna drive that Ferrari around town, make sure you have your mechanic follow you in a Porsche. I know, I've owned a few of both.
Edited 12/14/2005 9:13 am ET by JeffHeath
Edited 12/14/2005 9:18 am ET by JeffHeath
Here's the original post in the thread:
Any one have the real skinny on Lie-Nielsen bevel chisels? What's up with the 16 week shipping delay. Any one have a set? Are they what they are cracked up to be?
Here are the best responses (not mine by the way) to the questions that were originally asked:
1. A more precise question might be: how will LN chisels make you a better woodworker?
2. I know a former instructor at North Bennett Street School who could carve anything in the world with a 1" Marples.
I don't know what is up with the 16 week delay, although they had a rough roll-out with these chisels and the company acknowledges this. To attribute the delay to pure demand, at this point, would be a mistake, IMO. But I don't have any specific knowledge about the current delay.
Further, and for emphasis, I did not recommend that anybody buy outright junk. I used the term "serviceable" throughout this thread and that simply means not the cheapest and certainly not the most expensive.
Full Disclosure: I own LN tools as mentioned in a previous post.
I have no doubt the LN, the company, appreciates those willing to wait four months for a set of bench chisels.
I have heard scuttlebut that Lee Valley is looking into adding chisels to the line of tools it manufactures. That ought to get LN hopping if it is true.
Edited 12/14/2005 3:14 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss Crunk
The only part of any of the many posts you made on this thread that torqued me a bit was your statement that, not quoting, but in a nutshell, that the folks that buy the more expensive tools basically don't know how to use them, anyway. They typically are the ones who use their tools to build shop jigs, etc......
Most of the other stuff you stated was dead on. I just felt you were wrong about buying quality tools, even if sometimes expensive. I've been around for a while, and presently own 2 business's. One generates over a million in sales annually, and I'm here to tell you, I've found that in MOST CASES, the value, performance, and reliability of the tool can usually be directly related to it's cost. That being said, there are always diamonds in the rough out there.
For those Knotheads out there that don't want to fiddle around with 50 year old tools, LN, and other companies like them, offer tools that typically perform very well, with very little, if any at all, trouble getting them TO perform. In that regard, for most folks, they're worth every penny paid.
Happy Holidays!
Jeff
Frankly, most probably don't but I obviously have no hard data on that. It's nothing more than an opinion but I stand by it. I'm not so sure that the average LN customer is even a committed hand tool user much less somebody who exhibits any deftness at all. Of course there are exceptions. Emphasis on the word 'average.'
You're preaching to the choir. I owned Felder, Hammer, et al. when I was doing "big" woodworking. But I knew the difference and I knew what I was doing. I know you do to. I mentioned briefly in one of my other posts in this thread that my argument does not port well to power equipment where I believe cheap to average equipment can cost lives, quality, and dollars.
Again, I don't believe in unusable (ultra cheap) tools of any kind. I do know that if one can't chop a dovetail with a Marples it's highly unlikely the same person could all of a sudden do it with a Lie Nielsen. That said, I have no doubt that people BELIEVE that it makes an enormous difference and that is precisely the myth I am trying to burst. Ditto the other posters in this thread whose posts I copied.
Cheers.
That said, I have no doubt that people BELIEVE that it makes an enormous difference and that is precisely the myth I am trying to burst.
Boss... I've been going over threads like this here for a few years now paying particular attention to handraulic threads... Forgive me but never once have I seen a post professing to justify the myth you're talking about... Can you point me in its direction???
As I said earlier in my first post, the learning curve gets a whole lot flatter when you can take the possibility of the tool being at fault out of the equasion.... That doesn't mean there's any less learning to do... that still needs to be done the hard way... hands on... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Well... from a post in this very thread:
Did the Japanese chisels make me a better woodworker? Yes, in fact they did...
Contrasted with another post in this very thread (and a much more down-to-earth about what really matters, Indians and arrows and all that good stuff):
I know a former instructor at North Bennett Street School who could carve anything in the world with a 1" Marples.
Edited 12/14/2005 5:49 pm ET by BossCrunk
Well... from a post in this very thread:
Did the Japanese chisels make me a better woodworker? Yes, in fact they did...
righttt.... so I take it for the myth to fly you need to disregard the rest of that paragraph...??
I'm not trying to be argumentative here... honestly... ;) But the rest of that paragraph simply confirms what I said about quality tools being capable of flattening the learning curve... Simply through being capable of doing what you're asking of them through holding their edge longer (thereby avoiding hours spent sharpening when you can be cutting / chopping / paring etc ). It's the learning to ask the right thing of them that takes the practice as you yourself no doubt remember...
Like my Stanley plane blades, my Stanley chisels gave me plenty opportunity to practice flattening, sharpening and honing... tons of it. Lessons learned included the realization that I'd neither the shop space nor the budget to afford power grinders of any description... Working with decent quality steel I can keep all my cutting edges in prime condition with little more than 2 water stones... Thanks to all the prior practice I've become pretty good at it too...
As for giving me the required hands on time to learn how to do what I bought the damn things for in the first place... they failed miserably... Failures I might add that have been confined to the dim and distant since I switched to tools that DO perform as they're expected to...
I know a former instructor at North Bennett Street School who could carve anything in the world with a 1" Marples.
Carving with whatever comes to hand is a damn site easier when you know what you're doing than learning to carve using something as robust as a banana.... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
To cut to the chase:
1. You can make fine work with fair to good chisels, many have.
2. Some people do like to collect tools (a fairly harmless past-time, and less expensive than collecting say, Ferraris or blondes).
3. Skilled woodworkers do not need great tools... but why would they want to use mediocre ones? If your living depends on doing something well and quickly, why wouldn't you use a well balanced, well made tool, especially when you would amortize its cost with every piece you made?
4. Some people (such as Boss Crunk) find it enjoyable to deride any amateur woodworker who appreciates a fine tool as being "a collector", irrespective of their skill or how much they use a tool. It is a way of dismissing someone who is not a member of the "school of hard knocks" as not being serious, or accomplished. It is often laced with more than a little envy and attitude. You will never be able to reason them out of this position, because it is emotional not logical, so don't waste your time.
5. Buy the best tools that you can afford, and buy them once. As long as you are paying for them and not stealing them, ain't nobody's bizness but your own... Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
<<Well... from a post in this very thread:Did the Japanese chisels make me a better woodworker? Yes, in fact they did...>> Took that just a wee bit out of context didn't we? :-))) While I have to admit to enjoying reading most of your comments -- they're thought-provoking, if nothing else -- I'm a bit less amused when you (or anyone else, for that matter) take comments (and not just mine) out of context to argue/"support" a point. If you are going to make a point, then might I suggest that you do it in a consistently intellectually honest fashion.... Your comments allude to you being/having been a professional woodworker. If so, then you undoubtedly have a vast wealth of knowledge that you COULD pass on to us amateurs; instead, you tend to denigrate those with less knowledge, skill, etc. What's the point? I'm a hobbyist woodworker. I do this for fun, because it's a challenge, and because a large portion of the commercially available furniture is either junk or is not a style that I happen to like. So, my answer is to build my own in the styles I like and of a construction that pleases me (i.e., dovetailed drawers, solid wood -- no vinyl-covered particle board, etc., etc.). I've been abusing wood for about 25 years -- perhaps a couple of thousand hours total. That's not very much, particularly in comparison to someone who does/has done woodworking for a living and has been doing it for 25 or 30 years. I don't have, and don't expect to have the skills or knowledge of such woodworkers; maybe in another 10 or 15 years, if I'm lucky..... One of the reasons for hanging out in this forum is to pick up on others' knowledge and experience. As others have mentioned, if I knew then what I know now, I could have saved a lot of $$, trouble, frustration, etc. To digress a bit, in my previous real life, I spent 26 years in the Infantry. That time taught me many things. Included in those sometimes hard-earned lessons:
1) How to separate the BS artists from the real McCoy, and how to recognize "sharpshooters";
2) How to recognize the difference between a POS and something that does what it is supposed to in the fashion that it is supposed to. I have been exposed to more junk caused by the "lowest bidder" mentality than the populations of most cities ever see in a life time, and I was expected to bet my life on some of that junk..... So, FYI, I'm not into the "brand name" game: my jeans are Levis, my watch is a Seiko self-winder, and my car is a Jeep. Why? Because they all work the way they are supposed to work, and I don't have to worry about them falling apart after three washings, dying after two months (like a certain well-known and heavily-advertised brand that doesn't keep on tickin'...) (I've owned two Seiko self-winders in the last 30 years; the first lasted 19 years, the second is still going, DESPITE the ABUSE that my job put those watches through) or being found on the road dead after 12,496 miles (my first Jeep was replaced after 14 years; the second is still going....). I buy LN and other reliable brands of tools for the simple reason that they WORK. I DON'T CARE ABOUT WHATEVER SNOB APPEAL ASPECT THERE MAY BE CONNECTED TO THOSE BRANDS.
3) A certain tolerance for those of less knowledge and/or skill than mine. This is NOT condescension, simply a recognition of a lesser level of skill and experience, and, often, a desire to share what I have learned with others. Unlike many but certainly not all parts of the civilian world, where it is very often a cut-throat, stab your partner in the back kind of world, in the military, you learn the real meaning of teamwork - because you have no other choice. One is simply expected to share their knowledge with others and learn from others: there is NO monopoly on wisdom. The guy next to you is very likely the one that will save you fourth point of contact when things get sticky.
4) Etc., etc., etc. Sooooo, what's my point? Simple -- we can beat each other over the head, mis-represent what others have said, play silly little "score points" games, etc..... OR we can share our collective knowledge with each other in the hope that some piece of that will help someone become a slightly or even significantly better woodworker.
Are any of my observations intended to "stifle" comment or suggest that one should not speak one's mind? H*LL NO! That's part of what I dedicated 26 years of my life to protecting. All I ask is that you do it honestly and in good faith. Is that too much to ask for?
Oh, and by the way...I don't own any of the LN chisels, nor do I have any plans to buy them any time in the foreseeable future; my current set of Japanese chisels work quite well for me, thank you very much!Edited 12/15/2005 12:58 am ET by pzgrenEdited 12/15/2005 12:59 am ET by pzgren
Edited 12/15/2005 1:01 am ET by pzgren
Oy vey, the Japanese saw and chisel craze...
Please don't get me started.
I know, I know, heaven opened up for you when you first put that blue-steel edge to wood. Or do you have the white steel units? Laminated over "100 year old boat anchor steel" ? Bought from the Japan Woodworker? Hand made one at a time by an 80 year old Japanese master craftsman living outside Kobe?
Are those the ones?
Hey, don't be modest... are you 'Da Man' everybody's always talking about?
Edited 12/15/2005 10:36 am ET by BossCrunk
<<Oy vey, the Japanese saw and chisel craze... Please don't get me started...Or do you have the white steel units? Laminated over "100 year old boat anchor steel" ? Bought from the Japan Woodworker? Hand made one at a time by an 80 year old Japanese master craftsman living outside Kobe? Are those the ones?>>
To be perfectly honest, I have no idea. I bought them at Woodcraft. Since I don't read Japanese, I have no idea what brand they are or whether they're made from white or blue steel. Nor do I really care.
At $25 to $50 per chisel, I seriously doubt that there is any 100 year old boat anchor steel from the bottom of Tokyo Harbor or that they were individually hand-forged by the last living master chisel maker that makes them in the 1000-year-old traditional way. I tried one out because I had read that, for a variety of reasons, Japanese chisels would hold an edge well. I liked the way that one worked, so I added more sizes, as I needed them. They worked well, so I stuck with them.
<<I know, I know, heaven opened up for you when you first put that blue-steel edge to wood.>>
Sorry to disappoint you...but I don't buy all that mystical crap. No spiritual revelations, no sudden shining light from heaven, no sudden "I'm a Master Wood Smith now that I have my sooooo very special tool," or any of that nonsense. Just a product that worked like it was supposed to -- one that allowed me to concentrate on improving what modest woodworking skills I have without having to compensate for a piece of junk tool.
Want heaven to open up for you?? Jump out of a perfectly good airplane, moving at 140 knots, with a 125 lb ruck sack, 40 lbs of other equipment, 60 or so lbs of parachute, at 0200 on a moonless night from 800 feet with a 125 others in the air with you at the same time. THAT will give you a significant emotional experience!
<<Oy vey, the Japanese saw and chisel craze...>>
Just to give you some more ammunition for your next volley: I DO have a couple of Japanese saws. They work real well -- for some applications; for others, I like a western pattern saw better. Fire away.....!
<<Hey, don't be modest... are you 'Da Man' everybody's always talking about?>>
Not bloody likely. I'm just another poor schmuck trying to do the best I can, and have a bit of fun in the process. You got the spiel about my previous life in an obviously failed attempt to give you an idea of some of my perspective on things.
What about you? You da Man? The level of arrogance and sarcasm in your posts certainly suggest that YOU think so. All hail to DA MAN!! :-)
Have a good day. I'm looking forward to reading your next set of comments; they are always entertaining.
You ARE 'da man.
I just knew it.
I can't be 'da man, 'cause you 'da man
Only 'da man has chisels that fine.
Edited 12/15/2005 1:01 pm ET by BossCrunk
<<You ARE 'da man. I just knew it. I can't be 'da man, 'cause you 'da man>>
Dude!! I'm not greedy!! Why don't WE be DA MENS!!??? Together, we could take over this forum.....
<<Only 'da man has chisels that fine.>>
You got that right...MY chisels is finer than your chisels...'cause mines be them ultra sooper-dooper achor iron ones made by the 93 year old guy whose chisel making lineage goes back 743 years, and whose grandfather was the chisel maker to the emperor or the shogun or one of them samurai guys way up there..., and they come in a special compartmented wooden box signed in genuine Japanese calligraphy by the dude what spent all that long time and made 'em. Oh yeah, and I had them shipped from Japan, air freight in a specially chartered jet carrying no other cargo (so the special mysticism of my special chisels could not be contaminated by being in the vicinity of mere mortal chisels....), so I wouldn't have to wait 16 weeks for them.
Your turn! :-)
Every time you type you just make me wish I was 'da man.
Man, you 'da man.
Edited 12/15/2005 1:25 pm ET by BossCrunk
Hey! We did a good job of getting WAY off subject.
Had a blast with this exchange of wit and humor. Looking forward to the next one.
Cheers!
Infantry? Hoo-ya. I spent 6 years in the Canadian Airborne. Light Infantry and Reconnaissance. Did a few exchanges with US Marines and Airborne units.
Funny how we all wind up woodworkers, no?
The older I get, the better I was....
Edited 12/15/2005 12:37 pm ET by papanick
<<Infantry? Hoo-ya. I spent 6 years in the Canadian Airborne. Light Infantry and Reconnaissance. Did a few exchanges with US Marines and Airborne units.>>
HOOAH!! Always nice to hear from a comrade in arms!! Did a couple of exercises with the CMBG in Germany, when they were still around. Spent most of my time mech, but did some light and jumped out of a few perfectly good airplanes. Worked with Marines a couple of times, too; love those guys!!
<<Funny how we all wind up woodworkers, no?>>
Yes! Maybe it has something to do with being able to create things....
I like your signature quote....kinda like tellin' war stories....
Hi Folks,I ordered the LN bevel chisels about 4 weeks ago. 5 of the nine came in about two weeks and the other 4 are backordered. I absolutely love them and they definitely make my work better. They were a joy to use even before I had them sharpened. I have purchased several planes, a dovetail saw, these bevel chisels, and will be soon ordering the mortise chisels. LN should are doing a wonderful job in my estimation and its well worth the money to me.Stevo
Oh my gosh! What's this? A thread arguing whether Lie Nielsen tools are worth the money? What a strage and rare occurance! Never seen that here, wonder what brought it on?....
I simply fail to understand the venom and effort that goes into these threads. The question was simple: "Any one have the real skinny on Lie-Nielsen bevel chisels? What's up with the 16 week shipping delay. Any one have a set? Are they what they are cracked up to be?"
The answers: A) Yes. B) They've got a lot of backorders, and don't produce them in huge bunches. C) Yes I do. D) I think so- they're great chisels.
Leave it at that. I didn't wait 16 weeks; and if I was still working wood for a living I wouldn't have either. Did they make my woodworking better? No. More enjoyable? Maybe. Worth the $$? To me. Who else am I trying to please?
Just remember this: Duncan Phyfe, Thomas Sheraton, George Hepplewhite, and countless Shakers didn't have Lie-Nielsen tools. They would have liked them, but in the end they got on with their work. And I can't see how they suffered without them.
You can have the best set of clubs, Tiger Woods can whup your butt around 18 holes using a snow shovel. It's the archer, not the arrows.
By the way, my Dad is bigger than your dad.....The older I get, the better I was....
Papa, I THINK but I'm NOT SURE that the delay was/is caused by the number of sets they had to replace early on that had legitimate problems. Their production model did not take an early high rate of returns into account.
I'd be willing to bet that the backorder sheet needs some serious cleaning up and I wouldn't attribute the entire sixteen week wait to bona fide orders in house. Just my *somewhat* educated guess.
"Backordered" does not necessarily mean that actual orders have depleted inventory.
Edited 12/14/2005 6:43 pm ET by BossCrunk
papanick old chum, as far as I'm aware (and I could be wrong) neither Thomas Sheraton or George Hepplewhite were known to lift a chisel in their life, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
While I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hepplewhite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sheraton
I simply referred to what others have deemed "history"....
Maybe I should have said Phyfe?
The older I get, the better I was....
Edited 12/14/2005 8:33 pm ET by papanick
papanick, that's why I included in brackets (I could be wrong.) I wasn't 100% sure, my memory was suggesting they were designers only and I was being a bit lazy about checking references. I stand corrected. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
papanick,Check out information on Robert and James Adam. It was really their designs that influenced many cabinet makers and designers of that era. Both Hepplewhite and Sheraton were known to borrow heavily from their designs.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Ya know folks....there's been a statement that's been repeated a few times in this discussion that is really a non-issue. Paraphrased: ...anyone who works wood for a living wouldn't, couldn't, shouldn't wait sixteen weeks for any particular chisel or tool. Saying this doesn't make any sense to me. I mean......a pro already has some tools that are being used and supposedly can continue being used in said profession. So if the pro decides to purchase a nice set of chisels and says, "OK, I'll wait for them," the daily job really isn't impacted at all. The pro can do this without having to dribble tender body parts on the street or apologize for it to anyone including clients or mortgage holders.There are lots of reasons a person might choose to wait for a particular tool. And simply because he/she wants that tool, is good enough.
Good point. But it's not that someone who works wood for a living SHOULDn't wait for them. it's just that they can't really wait. They make do, and if necessary, buy twice. Sure you'd order them, but until they got there, you'd use something else; not wait idly. Besides, if you work wood for a living, I gotta bet you already have some chisels, probably enough to have gotten you where you are?
I have a full set of older blue chip Marples. A full set of the Lee Valley Bevel Edge chisels, and a handful of assorted mutts. I still bought the Lie Nielsens. I also have some Bridge City layout tools. They make Lie Nielsen and Veritas look dirt cheap.
But when I worked in a big shop, I used what I could afford to lose and replace. A lot of the guys (true Master cabinetmakers) I worked with had the tools their grandparents or parents had "from the old country". The work we did has been on television and in magazines.
The older I get, the better I was....
Edited 12/15/2005 9:33 am ET by papanick
After an experience I had last night, I must conclude that whoever thinks quality tools don't improve your ability is absolutely wrong!
I've been working on a project to produce a stool for my shop imitating one made by Gary Rogowski and written about in FWW. I'm considering it a great practice project because it's just for my shop, but I'll do the best I can. The seat has a curve to it from one end to the other. I had removed most of the material with multiple passes on the table saw, then used my Japanese chisels (sorry) to smooth as best I could, but the result made me feel like a total loser.
I ordered a LN spokeshave (Boggs edition), honed it for just a couple of minutes and went to work. This tool removed hyper thin shavings in mahogony and made the seat look spectacular! While it's true the spokeshave was the correct tool for the particular task, the craftsmanship and performance of this tool is PERFECT. I'm going to a WW show in Edison, NJ on Saturday. If they have any of the LN chisels there (unlikely given the backlog), I may have to buy some after the way I feel now! For the hobbyists among us that do this for fun, I believe most would agree that there's nothing like having a high quality hand tool to work with that feeels great to hold (which the LN chisels definitely do), is well prepared and a joy to use.
Note: this message was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, so don't everybody go getting all excited!
I just can't believe that your Japanese chisels wouldn't do the job for you and that you had to resort to buying tools from, you know, THAT tool maker, to get the job done. I'm aghast!!!
On a more serious note, glad to hear that your stool is coming along the way you want it to.
sapwoood.
Who do you think you are, to introduce the voice of reason into a discussion of woodworking tools? Don't you have something better to do?
Cheers,
Ray Pine
No, nothing better to do. I'd like to know just exactly what to say that would stir this ant hill back into action. Television is the pits, but sometimes these "discussions" are quite entertaining.
<<I'd like to know just exactly what to say that would stir this ant hill back into action.>> Say something nice about expensive, well-made tools, particularly those from a certain New England tool maker??
How about something nice about YB infill planes??
No? OK, how about anything complimentary about any kind of tool made in - you know - the Land of Lexus?? (Especially if they're hand-made by some old dude that's been doing it for a half dozen decades; those are the worst of all....)
A comment or two on how any COMPETENT woodworker could carve a piece waaaaaay better than that piker Grinling Gibbons or that German dude Riemenschneider, all with a 1/2 inch no-name chisel or, if one is feeling particular studly that day, with a carefully honed butter knife?? Just a couple of ideas to get things going again..... ;-) OH!!! You're talking about chisels to do stuff like mortising and tenons and trimming and such. Oooooops.......
Edited 12/16/2005 10:00 pm ET by pzgren
Sgian,
Yeah, but have you ever seen the inside of Duncan Phyfe's toolchest? Only the best. But I wonder, were they just for show?
Cheers,
Ray Pine
Inside his chest? No, not for a long time Ray, and would I really want to?
Meanwhile I do like to drop in on this pissing contest of a thread for mild amusement every two or three days just to see who's saying ya-boo-sucks to who now. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
<<Meanwhile I do like to drop in on this pissing contest of a thread for mild amusement every two or three days just to see who's saying ya-boo-sucks to who now.>> Aye, and there are those who are truly easy to bait.....
Where else can you get this much entertainment for free?
Sgian,
Now, c'mon, tell us, what brand name is on your set of chisels?
I'll go first, starting at my 1/8". and going up in size from there:
Stanley 1/8
Greenlee 1/8
Stanley 1/4
Japanese 5/16
Butcher 3/8
Pine Knot 3/8
Stanley 1/2
Butcher 1/2
Greenlee 1/2
Lindner 5/8
No Name 3/4
Japanese 3/4
Stanley 7/8
Buck Bros 1
Union Tool 1
Stanley 1-1/4
Winsted (USN) 1-1/4
Keen Kutter 1-1/2
Pexto 1/4 incannel (Iknow it's out of order, but that's where it is on the back of the bench)
No Name (Blacksmith made) 2
Really, the only one that's truly of no account is the Lindner, it is really soft, I got it with no handle, and wonder if it has been thru a fire. I've thought of re-hardening and tempering it, but never took the time. It's an odd size, and I seldom use it. They are all of the 1880-1940 era, except for the Japanese ones which were purchased in the 1970's. I have no idea of the age of the Harley-Davidson (boat anchor) they were made from.
Can you tell I didn't buy them as a set? I'm so ashamed -:(
Of all the bunch, I guess the 1" Buck Bros is the one that made me a better woodworker: it was the first chisel I got, so I got a lot faster at inletting butt hinges after that.
Cheers,
Ray Pine
Ray, Apart from a selection of UK sold blue handled Stanley's along with a few of what were said back in the '70's, '80's and early '90's to be the better quality UK sold black handled Stanley's of the bevelled pattern ranging from 6 mm to 32 mm wide I really haven't got a clue what brands of chisels I've got. I have a few chisels-- again UK bought-- in what were sold as the Stanley (I think) shatterproof pattern with a yellow/red handle in useful widths, again bevel pattern, from 3 mm to 38 mm (1-1/2")
On top of that there's a skinny no-name 1.5 mm bevel edged chisel that works fine when sharp, and thirty plus years or so of accumulation with an odd chisel here and another there. Some are carving tools, some are mortise chisels, a few registered chisels, etc.. Some might be 50 years old, and some could be 100 years old for all I know. I really don't know what brand any of them are. I don't care really. They cut wood when I need them to and that's all that matters to me. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Sgian,
You seem awfully cavalier about the breand of chisel you prefer. Bet you have a favorite ale!
Cheers,
Ray
uh-oh. Here we go again....The older I get, the better I was....
I'll bet a pint that he says his favorite ale is the one that's in his glass.
You owe him a pint then sapwood.
If it's in a glass it's in the wrong container.
The correct container is the belly, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I'm not trying to welch on the bet (I'm not a chiseler), but I'm gonna split hairs: Wouldn't that beer in the belly be your PAST favorite?Personally, I've never met a British ale that I didn't like, although I'm partial to Old Peculiar. It was my first. (sigh.............)
After our experiences with Lie-Nielson planes, myself and another finish carpenter can't wait to get some extra $ for a set of their chisels. The difference in plane steel between a Record or old Stanley and the Lie-Nielson is quite impressive.
Happy holidays,
Don
Weeeell-- I suppose it would sappy. There are plenty of beers over here I describe as only fit for mouthwash! Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
sap,
If you aren't a chiseler, you aren't qualified to be posting on THIS thread, ;-)
Mmm, Old Peculier, Newcastle Brown, Bass, Newbould Taddy Porter, Mackeson's...
not just for breakfast anymore!
Some of us are meant to carve out our niche in life, the rest of us are just a bunch of chiselers.
Cheers,
Ray Pine
On reflection Ray, maybe the shatterproof red and yellow handled chisels are Marples. I don't remember, but whatever they are they cut when needed. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
<<Just remember this: Duncan Phyfe, Thomas Sheraton, George Hepplewhite, and countless Shakers didn't have Lie-Nielsen tools. They would have liked them, but in the end they got on with their work. And I can't see how they suffered without them.>>
This is true. When 18th and 19th c. craftsmen (the ones working in America) needed fine edge tools, beyond the abilities of the local blacksmith to produce or stocked by a merchant trader in Philadelphia or New York, they simply got out the quill pen and parchment and wrote a request and sent it rocketing off to a tool merchant in England, (which depending on prevailing wind conditions could take months). The fine tools would be rushed back in the same manner, and if the ship didn't capsize, or wasn't attacked by pirates or stuck interminably in the doldrums, these men could, with any luck reasonably expect to get their tools in a bit less than a year.
And the price? Well, corrected for currency changes and 200 years of inflation the price would make Lie Neilsen chisels seem very inexpensive.
Fine tools have always been expensive, the Industrial Revolution, mass production and competition put decent tools into the hands of craftsmen for relatively little money, but only for the past 125 years or so.
The icons you mention, whose life depended on the tools they owned, had little choice but buy the very best tools available, pay the price and wait for them.
I own a lot of LN tools, I suppose I fall into the craftsman/collector camp. I'm glad that a company like LN exists, who places quality at least as high as profitability. The only way to support their existance is to buy their product. Each time I do I am impressed.
Does owning their tools make me a better craftsman? No, not directly, but each time I pick up my dovetail saw I get a sense of satisfaction in how it fits in my hand, and how well it cuts and I am happy. That happiness adds to my enthusiasm and I look forward to dovetailing, I do it more and I get better.
I don't own LN chisels yet, but I will. I'll wait until I can hold them first and if the price goes up between now and then, no matter. When my Grandchildren inherit them, they won't bemoan the wait or the cost.
David C.
(Edit: durned spelling!)
Edited 12/17/2005 8:46 am ET by DCarr10760
That's a very good way to look at it. And make no mistake, I'm buying as much LN as I can afford when I need the tools, even whin I don't NEED them in some cases, so tyhat I can have them when I do need them.
And passing them down to my kids is definitely something that I consider.The older I get, the better I was....
Yeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!
Keep smiling. See you on the other side.
Jeff
I remember building furniture early on with my swiss army knife. I cut mortise and tenon with it as well as using the wood saw to cut material to length. Some of that furniture is still being used thirty years later. I now have several sets of different brands of chisels. I do have to say that having a chisel of any kind allowed my skills to develop further. Couldn't the case be made that a 'better' chisel would allow a similar sort of change? I know that when I sold my Silvertone and got a Rickenbacher guitar, I got a lot better fast. I was no longer limited by my instrument. Same goes for most tools if you think about it.
For those of you that have the LN chisels, have you had any problems with them holding their edge or chipping? I took a 2-day class with Gary Rogowski in November and he had a set of them. We were working with white oak (which is very hard wood) and he was having problems with the chisels working in that hard material. Could these have been in the early run and they are better now in production? I'm interested to get some feedback before I'd consider buying them.
Thanks,Brian
I guess I should stop buying these expensive tools so that the safety of my family is no longer at risk. Here is a quote from my wife, she said this after cominmg out of the theatre last night. " I would rather have season tickets to the theatre every year than drive a new car."
The car is an 89 Accord.
If she is happy then I am happy. And I am happy with my vehicles, my tools and my life.
Perhaps I will just have to order some of these L-N Chisels just to see what all the fuss is about, even if it means picking them up in my S-10
derek
Yes, I believe you should. If you're a hobbyist you ought to keep your family in a safe, late model vehicle before you indulge yourself with tools. I feel very, very comfortable making that statement.
Jeez, bro. If you lose the apparently fine woman in an accident when a simple air bag system would have saved her life you'll never live it down.
Edited 12/14/2005 2:47 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss, chisels aside for the moment, I'll comment on airbag vehicles as a guy who works in a hospital.I've seen far too many injuries from airbag deployments to be comfortable with them. IMO, a good set of seat belts will do a better job, particularly if children are involved.That said, I've got an old set (1987 or so) of boxwood handled Marples chisels that work just fine. I've augmented them with a few used ones bought here and there, my favourite is a 1.5 inch T.H. Witherby, made around 1850 or so.Obviously I'm not qualified to make a comment on the current Marples' steel. The ones I've got hold an edge well and respond nicely to a few quick strokes across a black or a Was*hita stone. (The program just censored the type of stone, hence the asterisk.)The only time I've had an edge chip, my late F-I-L used my one-inch to take up carpet strips. Needless to say, he also used a steel hammer on the wooden haft. About four years worth of steel removed later, it was back in shape with the dings on the haft still there. I bought him a set of Stanley butt chisels and he was as happy as a clam. (This was the guy who bought on-sale tools from the Base Exchange.)I'm also not a sharpening fanatic, if it shaves, it's sharp, if it doesn't it's not sharp.If I make a foray into new chisels, I'll look at both L-N and Barr.Leon
WOW! I had no idea I was opening a can of worms!
Anyway, I do not feel, as some have suggested, that expensive chisels will make me a better woodworker. I have reached a certain level and I am sure that I will improve on those skills as I work on more projects. On the other hand, I have had some chisels that could not hold an edge for more than a couple of paring strokes. At this time I have two Stanley 750s in my arsenal, that are great tools. I have been looking for more 750s without much luck, and they are selling for as much as the Lie-Nielsen are.
Edited 12/13/2005 6:28 pm ET by salamfam
Edited 12/13/2005 9:08 pm ET by salamfam
I have looked at the Lie Nielsen chisels and I think they are probably worth the price and the wait if you can afford them. Right now I have a set of Craftsman that I have had for 40 years. I have to constantly sharpen them to get them to work properly and while I woodwork as a hobby who wants to sharpen your tools every other time you use them? If you have the knowlege and the time I am sure you could find a good set at a Flea Market, polish them up and have a good tool. I have yet to find any such tools, E-Bay has some old sets once in awhile but the price goes up so high that you might as well buy new chisels.
I have a low angle block plane from Lie Nielsen and just bought a small 11/16 wide rabbet plane from Clifton. Both were a lot of money but worth it. they are quality tools and a pleasure to use. You get what you pay for.
I just ordered myself a set, Jennifer at customer service emailed me to remind me that there was a 16-week lead time before they would be delivered.
Good company.
David C.
L-N makes chisels! HOLY COW
I just wanted to be the 100th post
My set arrived earlier this week.. work has me transferred down to Englandshire so didn't get my hands on em till tonight. Overalll time was around 7 weeks...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mine came yesterday! I guess I ordered them on the 19th or 20th of December, which would've put the lead time at a bit over 5 weeks! Better than what they told me. They look initially like they're worth the money and the wait!
I can't wait to get out to the shop in the morning and smack 'em around a bit...see what they're made of!
Good luck with yours!
David C
Mike,<<...work has me transferred down to Englandshire ...>> Would that be a political sub-division of bonny Scotland, laddae?James
Would that be a political sub-division of bonny Scotland, laddae?
Well.....technically I'm working a wee bit further south than where the border used to be... Hadrians wall worked both ways... ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I bought one. As I expected it is a fine tool, but it is no better than my $20.00 Japanese chisels I bought from Woodcraft. I wanted the LN for an absolutely silly reason, they look like traditional English chisels. I had planned on buying a few more, but now I don't think I will.
Rob Millard
Some people find the KIA to be good transportation and others like Mercedes. That's why there is more than one brand. The real question is which would you want if they were the same price?
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