Does anyone know if it’s possible to get affordable liability insurance for teaching woodworking? I’m teaching adult ed through a local high school at the moment, but I’d love to use my own shop. So far the cheapest coverage I could find was $1000 + a year. I’m in MA and I’m teaching a handful of adults at a time.
Also, I’m about to embark on a new adventure – substitute teaching for said high school shop class. Eek! Any good ideas for teenagers to use those sharp edged, fast moving, blades?
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I dont know anything about teaching, but if I were trying to teach I would demonstrate repeatedly, and then let one student at a time use the tool(tablesaw for instance) while the others stood quietly where I could see them. I would be close to the operator to intervene if needed and if anyone started to horse around they would be quickly and permanently expelled. When I was much younger i was friendly with a high school shop teacher. He told me about a student in his class that had long hair, and apparently bad eyesight. He bent close to the spinning chuck and his hair caught and wound up on the chuck. It tore a big hunk of hair out of his head. Bloody and all. Imagine having to explain to his folks! Work safely and be able to work tomorrow. Bob
Good advice Bob, I also thought about starting by having them design their own safety tools, push sticks and things, to get their mind on safety to begin with.
If you'll be substituting, won't you be entering the classroom in "mid-stream" so-to-speak? e.g., in the middle of a project? Hopefully, the regular teacher would have started the class with safety instruction, and you would be mostly supervising and enforcing that particular area.
If you want a good demo to use to illustrate kick-back, take a look at the article and video by Lon Schleining on this Tauton page. You could replicate it in the classroom.
As far as insurance goes, unless you have commercial insurance for other activities, I'd expect it to be prohibitive. If you were running a commercial shop, and had business insurance for it, it probably wouldn't cost that much to have any teaching activities added to it (if they weren't already covered by the policy). Business-type insurance policies are oriented toward a base-level minimum that doesn't accomodate casual activities.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
kt,
I teach teenagers woodwork as a full-time job.
Being a substitute in a workshop is a difficult call, as (kids being kids) they will be pushing you to find what they can get away with and where the line in the sand is drawn. They have your and the other teacher's expectations to get used to.
What tools are they allowed to use?
What tools are too dangerous for them to use?
Here's a link from PA on safety instruction.
http://www.mtea.net/PDF%20Files/Pennsylvaniasafety.pdf
Cheers,
eddie (where, on a per capita basis, we have more liability lawsuits than California)
ps: our guidelines:
Jointers: New purchase forbidden, existing ones: trained teachers only
Thicknessers: 17y.o.+ when directly supervised
Bandsaws: 17y.o.+ when directly supervised
Router tables: Only ones with a sliding table to be used by 17y.o.+
Chisels: 14 y.o.
Edited 1/9/2005 3:11 pm ET by eddie (aust)
I was in insurance for almost 20 yrs before starting my renovation business. What you are going to find regarding liablitly insurance premiums is that most companies have what is called a "minimum premium" which is a premium amount that is the lowest they will write. Most companies have a min premium of anywhere from $750 up to $2,500 depending on the company. I guess what I am trying to say is you are probably not going to find that wonderful "$200" liability policy that you would consider affordable due to the companies minimum premium policies.
Yeah, like I said. I feel extremely lucky to have a policy for my store-front business where the premium is under $500. Covers liability, some inventory, and about $3,000 toward display cases and computer. Although it is not a WWing business, part of the coverage is "finished product" (or some such thing) so if I do make an Adirondack chair or two, they're covered for liability.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi KT ... I retired after 37 years as a Shop Teacher. Rule #1 talk to the shop teachers. Let THEM tell you what is permissible and what is not. DO NOT take that responsibility on yourself!! Our local (New York) rules are that ONLY licensed Technology (shop) teachers are allowed, with the teachers OK, to let students work in the shop. If you did not have the proper license, NO WORK. My students were told that if I was out, they would have a video or some book work which I would check. They were also told that they would have to see the video or do the book work sometime within the next week or so, and it would be a shame if they had to do it while I stood there and watched them. When in doubt, err on the side of safety.
And for anyone who is not a teacher and reads this post, because of many, many education laws, it's almost impossible to just 'throw the kid out'. I can tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end, of one student endangering other students in the room and administration tells me... He's yours.. you figure out what to do with him..... SawdustSteve
I do little gigs, no more than ten kids at a time, and we build robots (from kits) and they learn about electric motors, circuits, gearboxes, etc, plus I do some simple, hand-tool carpentry programs (hope to be spreading my wings a bit soon, as one of my client towns is going to run my Physics of Flight course this summer.) In all these cases I operate under the umbrella of the town's policy.
I was approached by a small college that operates near by, asking if I'd like to run some of my robotics programs at their summer program. Geez, would I! Well, then came the fine print. I had to rent the space and buy insurance. I never was able to get a real sense from any of the carriers suggested by the college that they would provide me coverage and, when I went to our own local agent they just about laughed themselves to death. Said, "Ed, this is going to cost you." I probably still have my notes somewhere, but the premium cost was shocking. Part of the issue was similar to another's comments here, they weren't interested in writing insurance for a nine-hour class, this was coverage for a significantly longer period of time, but it was their minimum.
Not to take this off on a tangent, but anyone have good suggestions for gluing long (8') lengths of tissue paper together? This is for a hot-air balloon. I know I can have them send up dry-cleaner's bag balloons, but this big sucker ought to be quite cool.
A friend of mine used glue sticks. The base was a wire hanger bent into a circle with the hook sticking into the center to hold the wick. They fueled with old shirts torn into strips and dipped in paraffin.
Ed,
When I was young, we used flour and water. Make a runny paste, apply a thin line and press together. When dry it's very light and secure. Hope it helps.
Ed, I would try a light misting of spray-on adhesive.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Ed,Re. tissue paper ballons:
When I was a kid, I made dozens of these things. I tried a number of glues and the best thing I came up with was ordinary white glue (PVA).The trouble is getting a thin enough line so that it doesn't make the paper soggy. I used a modified nozzel on the bottle, then a hard rubber platen roller to spread it out. I think you might be able to buy a roller/applicator at most WW stores. The problem is finding one small enough.If you crumple, then flatten a length of wax paper to place between the layered gores, they won't stick together (the rumpled surface allows better airflow for drying).Good luck on the insurance problem. I wanted to have classes taught at my shop in Seattle, but the liablity coverage is killer. I'm still working on it.Tom
Thanks all re advice on sticking the tissue paper together. The book (the series from Lee Valley a [bunch] of stuff for a boy to do) suggested flour and water paste - you can't blame me for thinking that there might have been some improvements, LOL.
The books are a hoot. Talk about ways to get into trouble! Hydro this, and hydro that, which, of course, you can get easily at your local druggest. Be certain to tell them what you are using it for so that you get the right stuff. Big warning in the front of the books about this being an exact reprint, and that we wouldn't do some of these things today. :-) Lot's of fun projects, however.
I looked for my notes re insurance, but it appears that I must have been keeping them in a separate file for this college, and I can't find them. My best sense of the conversation was that it was WAY too expensive for my needs at that time, esp if most of my clients are not requesting such from me.
You can get this kind of liabilty insurance as a rider to your homeowner's policy...about $50 a year. Call your insurance agent.
A thousand or so bucks IS cheap.
"A thousand or so bucks IS cheap." Not really. Not unexpectedly high, within the range of reasonable, but not cheap. I have full commercial insurance -- liability, limited inventory replacement, equipment coverage, finished-product coverage (I think that's the term) -- for a full-time business for around $500/year from the "good-hands" folks. Our last policy, with a different company, cost about the same.
When I was in the horse business, stable with 12 horses, riding arena, taught lessons and trained, about 20 years ago, my policy was right in that same price range. I wasn't the property owner, so didn't need to cover that part, but lots of exposure, nevertheless. Hellishly hard to find, but it was out there.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Does your policy cover teaching woodworking on premises (presumably using power tools)?
I'll be bold and anticipate your answer as "no" and state further that yours is an apples to oranges comparison.
Edited 1/10/2005 4:50 pm ET by cstan
Also, if your homeowner's insurance provider will allow you to teach woodworking on premises and only charge a few hundred bucks or less for liability coverage for such an endeavor then please, please post the name of your insuror.
When I was faced with having to take out liability insurance because of one of the tools I manufacture i chose not to do it. Instead I hid behind my LLC ( not much of a shield to a lawyer who wants to get at you) and put my assets in my wifes name. In a state like Fla you dont need to do that because of the homestead law that protects your house ( thats why OJ is looking for Nicoles killer on the greens at those posh Fla golf courses) when you have nothing to get, they wont come after you. My wife has nothing to do with my company so her assets cannot be attacked. The only problem is, if she wants you out....you are O-U-T!
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Thank you all for your comments about teaching and liability. I checked with my homeowner's coverage and they won't cover classes in my shop. I will try general commercial liability and see what I come up with.
Also, my (high school) teaching career is over. Successfully or not I can't say. No amputations or broken bones, and the kids are fine too, but I'd rather be dragged behind a team of wild horses (going in opposite directions) than repeat it. They were mostly good kids, but it was a constant challenge to my authority (how naive, I thought I'd teach them something).
Safety additions
Learning woodworking and metal working is a great asset for a student, however it comes with a great responsibility. It is up to a student to use equipment safely, even when not under supervision. This simple fact does not go away as we move away from the education space and into the work force.
My co-founder and I are engineers who have developed safety equipment for manufacturing. We have created a new product that is tailored for school shops. .
We are just starting out and looking for feedback on our product from those who we think it can benefit the most. If you wouldn't mind please check out our demo video. If you are then interested in a demo unit to try please ask.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7RDh6qgcs4
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