Left tilt saws, an observation.
I helped a buddy set up the fence on his left tilt saw a while back.
Standard method of; lock the fence where the cursor reads 2-inches, rip a piece of scrap, measure the width of the scrap, and adjust the cursor to match the measured width.
A few weeks later he mentions that the cut width has drifted. I go over to see what has happened, and realize he has switched from a narrow (3/32) kerf blade to a standard (1/8) kerf, and this has left the cursor off by 1/32.
I thought about it for a minute and realized; that since the blade is indexing off the arbor flange on the left side of the blade, any change in width will be to the right side, which will always be reflected in the width of a cut piece, if the fence is set using the cursor.
So, short of abandoning the cursor and measuring every set up, how do you folks with left tilt saws compensate?
Replies
Jigs,
My European saw has a fence bar that extends both sides of the blade, with a scale going both ways from zero at the blade. The scales are glued in but the window and its cursor that is integral on the fence can be loosened and repositioned with a leeway of around 1/6 inch. In addition, the whole fence bar can be loosened then moved sideways a little with reference to the machine tabletop.
My bandsaw is from the same maker and its fence/fence-bar configuration are identical, except that the bandsaw fence is a lot taller, for resawing purposes. The basic fence assembly is the same but different fence faces can be mounted on it via T-slots and bolts.
I often change both the whole fence and the fence faces, for various types of work, between the saws. The bandsaw fence is usually configured to work to the left of the blade; the TS fence to the right. But because the fence faces can be mounted either side, any fence can be used in any way on either machine. The design makes this very easy and quick to do (seconds).
All this fence and fence-face swapping means that the little cursor windows often gets moved. It takes only a second to put a fence agin' the blade and zero the cursor.
So, all this is not obviously relevant to your friend's problem if he doesn't have these fine, modern European fence thangs. But perhaps the answer is to make some kind of movable cursor-line window or similar to put on his fence? When a narrow blade is mounted, or any other significant change made, he can rezero the cursor in no time. Unfortunately, those US-style fences seem to be rather industrial and fixed affairs. However, an ingenious mind might find a way. :-)
If it's any help. I could send photos of the Euro fences.....?
I'm thinking of offering Taunton a "How the Europeans do it" article for that "Woodworking Life" blog. It never ceases to make me wonder why TS technology in the US remains mired in the original Unisaw design.
Still, there are signs of change. Today a riving knife; tomorrow sliding crosscut tables, proper fences, blade brakes and .... who knows what else! Meanwhile I am waiting for the European manufacturers to catch up with the sawstop mechanism. I will get one in an instant.
Lataxe
The carbide teeth on a standard blade are larger than on a thin kerf. On some industrial blades the carbide is even larger. They stick out farther from the blank on both sides. There isn't any difference between left or right tilt saws in this case. Unless you use the exact same size blade you set the cursor with, it won't be accurate when changing to blades that are different thicknesses.
If a saw is set up correctly, you don't have to do any tricks, test cuts and such. Simply measuring to the edge of the tooth should give you exactly that measurement in the cut. With some blades, you do need to choose a tooth that is to the right, not a raker tooth.
I've used saws with a number of different fences. Any of them can go out. Experience has taught me to always check both ends of the fence with every set up. The one time you don't, it may effect the cut. Table boards can move with the seasons, fasteners can loosen. I'm in the habit of not measuring to the fence but laying the tape down and measuring to the miter way. I then set the fence to that measurement, checking both ends. I like the outfeed end of my fence just a whisker more than the infeed end.
Cursors don't work if you add a sacrificial fence. The newer type fences, Biesmeyer, Unifence, only fasten on the front. There isn't a rear rail and lock. Due to this, the fence can hit on the miter ways as you move it back and forth. This can knock them out. I got complacent with my Unifence and got out of the habit of checking front and back, only to pay the price. I use a power feeder a lot of the time so I switched back to my old Jetlock fence with a rear rail. It forces me to make the check each time and I never have alignment problems. The cursor is dead on for the blade I set it up to but I don't use it. I change blades throughout the day. They aren't all exactly the same, especially after repeated sharpening. Measuring each set up eliminates any surprises and is well worth the extra three seconds.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I've never put much faith in any of the built-in scales on a tool. I'll use them to get close, but the final adjustment is made based on a measurement.
I always set the fence on my TS with a tape - measuring from the corner of a tooth to the fence. The fence scale is only used to "tweak" the fence if I need a small (<1/16") adjustment.
I've got a R/Tilt uni-saw with an Excaliber fence (similar to a bessy fence).
I've no need for a tape or cursor since I also have a Wixey digital readout. Simply run the fence against the blade, punch a button to set to zero, then run the fence away from the blade til the readout reads the distance you want. The readout is in both decimal and fractions at the same time.
Simple, accurate and a time saver. Much more accurate than a tape / rule / whatever.
I have no doubt that there are many better ways to set a fence, but I got most of my (alleged) learning shortly after the earth cooled, so I use the ways I'm used to. - lol
but I got most of my (alleged) learning shortly after the earth cooled, so I use the ways I'm used to. - lol
Me too! At that time the earth was cool but it was flat! Oh---- for the good ol days!
Now don't be trying to "out-old" me dude!! When Jurassic Park hit the theaters, my kids got really annoyed with me when I refused to take them to see it. As I told them, I couldn't see blowing good money to see the Hollywood version of critters that I had played with as a kid!!
The ungrateful brats just rolled their eyes and assigned that one to the catagory of "More Dad Lies". They've never believed that I had to walk two miles to school every day in the rain, snow, sleet, hail and heat...............and that it was uphill both ways.
Nowadays, most kids have to sit in the backseat of their parents cars and get a ride both ways to school. And because everyone gets a ride, the whole block around the school gets so congested, it's often faster to walk, even if it's uphill!Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I much prefer a left tilt saw for rips with a tilted blade, since the fence can stay on the "correct" side of the blade, that is on the right side of the blade that I always use for ripping with the blade vertical.
I have found that having to do angled rips with the fence on the left feels awkward and dangerous because nothing is in it's usual position, not a good situation with a table saw, especially when ripping.
My solution for the different thickness blade problem is simple, I use standard thickness blade for almost all operations. You should never have to use a thin kerf blade on most saws unless you are ripping thick stock with an underpowered saw, and then I'd compensate, if needed, for the cursor being off. Also, as noted by another poster the varying side overhang of the teeth on different blades will still cause small errors.
To be honest I rarely depend on the cursor, it just adds an additional chance to get a cut of the wrong dimension. I set the fence with the single tape or ruler that am using to do all of the measuring on the job, or I use a directly transferred measurement from a story stick or already dimensioned piece. Depending on multiple measuring devices is always risky and isn't considered a good practice in many shops.
John White
Edited 3/21/2008 11:43 am ET by JohnWW
John,
If you are forced to admit, "To be honest I rarely depend on the cursor, it just adds an additional chance to get a cut of the wrong dimension"........
then you need a proper saw, lad. Surely them FWW accountants will buy you a Scheppach or even a Felder? The latter have electronic gizmos that allow you to set the required width, depth of cut and so forth, then little motors move the fence and the blade. They are accurate to 0.1mm, which your tape measure is not, especially when applied and read by you, a mere human. :-)
On the other hand, I can read to 0.5mm accuracy on my Scheppach scale with its hairline cursor; then the microadjust allows accurate 0.1mm changes. And Lawd! It works!!
It must be a nuisance having to do all your woodworking with the equivalent of a Model T Ford.
Lataxe, from the 21st century
I use a 2" wide maple gauge block to adjust the cursor when I change blades. Takes 10 seconds.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
40917.10 in reply to 40917.9
I use a 2" wide maple gauge block to adjust the cursor when I change blades. Takes 10 seconds.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted WoodworkingNot sure John but I'll bet that the block doesn't adjust the cursor.Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Edited 3/21/2008 10:49 pm by OB
OK the gauge block adjusts the fence. A screwdriver adjusts the cursor. Both of course do so under my direct control :)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I don't need to adjust the cursor when I change blades. It take me 0 seconds.
Respectfully,Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Good for you Flair. I'll take a couple of guesses. Right tilt saw? Government work?Vic
Lataxe,No, no, no, the accountants at FWW would be the last people in the world to buy us a Scheppach or a Felder, magazine publishing isn't a high profit business, at least as they explained it to us. By the way i don't work for them full time any more, except as a freelancer.The primary problem is that very few scales, of the type typically used in woodworking, are all that accurate, 10 inches, or 254 mm if you prefer metric, on one scale often times won't be the same as that dimension on another scale. If you use the same scale to measure both the piece and the fence position the inaccuracy doesn't matter. As much as possible I try to directly transfer dimensions or use stops to cut matching parts so I rarely do that much measuring anyway.I prefer working with basic machinery, although for a year I ran a four head fully digital controlled molding machine, so I've been there and I loved that work also. I'm also an experienced machinist so I can work to a tight thou, if need so I'm not oblivious to the joys of moderately precision work when it is called for. I now make furniture to experiment, teach, and for fun, rarely primarily for money, and I have absolutely no need for complicated expensive machinery that won't make the finished piece even slightly better, or any faster to build for that matter.John W.
Lataxe,
We Americans are talented such that we don't need them electic gew gaws to make boxy thangs. 'Sides our furniture has graceful curves, pleasing to the eye, nowt round pegs in square holes with fake splines and all.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I believe you have all been subject to a 'fluence put out by neanderthal folk living secretly in your midst. This 'fluence takes you back into the past. Why, some poor souls have even been transported back to 1708, as you you can tell by their outlandish apparel, strange and rigid opinions, as well as the queer old furniture they make with useless folderols clasped here and there on the carcasses! Also, they cannot grasp our modern tools, mentally or in their great hairy hands. And their panels crack or warp. Yes they do.
Other folk have only been pushed back to circa 1923 so have electricity; but they cannot leave their dangerous unisaw thangs as it is not possible for them to grasp the concept of "safety", which is regarded as rather an unmanly cowardice and dang commie aberation. The emergency wards are full of them - folk with only one finger and various plank-shaped dents in their heeds.
One day the neanderthals will be found and rooted out. Rescuers from Europe will come to turn off the 'fluence gas. They will arrive bearing sliding tablesaws with riving knives. Richard Jones will be there, wading ashore waving a copy of Betty Norbury (her books not the lady) and his apprentice will be carrying the axe and torch with which all that frou frou will be made into firewood for the electricity turbines. A nice Swiss man will distribute Lamellos for only a few dollars. You will all be much happier and shout "Huzzah!" as you throw roses and send your most comely young women to give us hugs of welcome and possibly other types of hugs.
Lataxe, from the civilised world across the shining sea.
Lataxe,
Bless you.
I just knew you would come to my rescue in my hour of need. I am looking forward to seeing Richard strolling ashore with flags (?) waving. Wilst ya be sending all these new thangs or personally be presenting them yosef? Please advise and I'll gladly supply the mello man with an address to which he can post them fine machines.
Off to stifle the fluence gas and practice Huzzahs,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Richard Jones will be there, wading ashore"
Too late. Been there. Done That. Got the T shirt, and then moved back to the UK with my prize-- a Texan of the female variety, ha, ha.
Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
"......moved back to the UK with my prize-- a Texan of the female variety".
You took a one home!! And after all that stuff you posted about Texas interior designer wimmin and their evil-terrible ways!!!
Anyway, since you been there once you get to wade ashore first, to point out the mantraps to the rest of us. I'm not taking them Scheppachs and Lamellos if there are going to be sharp-tongued wimmin waiting to dress me in loudcloth or even apply botox. I am sensitive.
Lataxe, bringing freedom and civilisation to primitive woodworkers everywhere.
A recent study published here says that one in four of our young nubiles will give you more than a hug. Something you will need a trip to the physician and pharmacist to divest yourself of.
Only one of a hundred grizzly bears will bite you but unfortunately they don't come in numerical order. I fear the same principle applies to the nubiles."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
If you wear a kilt in the correct manner as I do, all those gimlet eyed, toothsome, corn-fed, apple pie chomping, sharp tongued and sharper elbowed American harpies turn into the softest of putty. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Was that you to the right of the queen in that infamous photo?"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
No. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Ah, the Britney Spears look. But it's soooo 2007. And that Brazilian wax really hurts.
Jim
Now, now. You'll make want to go back to rehab ... again. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
R,
In a kilt one may "dress" to right or left; or even both, as the rhythm of striding about in front of gooey-eyed lasses dictates. So, he could stand either side of The Queen and she would always be Pleased.
Richard is old enough to have been around in 1884 and may well have changed his name from Brown to Jones, after The Scandal, so as to pretend he is Welsh and not a sheep-stealing Sccot from the wrong side of the border. I shan't mention why they stole them, by the way; but if you was Queen Vickie's companion what would you do for light relief? Anyway, he cannot hide his little dagger so everyone knows not to rile him up or let their sheep out near him.
Perhaps Richard is the origin of that Texas saying "Hang Loose pardner"? I believe The Texan Authorities sent him home in the end. They could not have a real man (you can check with kilts) showing up them loud bloaters in the big daft hats and skinny neck chokers.
Lataxe
Ha!
Lataxe, you've dredged up a memory for me. I was at one of the "Highland Games" that are held in several places in the US to honor and celebrate Scottish heritage. An old party came up to a kilt-wearing man and inquired, "Sir, is anything worn under your kilt?"
He replied, "No ma'am! Everything's in first-class condition!"
It's also fun to go to a Highland Games, get yourself in the middle of a crowd, and suddenly yell out, "Hey Scotty!" About 30 guys turn around...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
There's also the one about the Scot who was being interviewed on a local TV show by a young lady. She asked "Can you tell us what a true Scotsman wears under his kilt?" He replied "With any luck, lass, lipstick."
I've pretty much switched to 3/32" TK blades now, but when I was switching back and forth with 1/8" full kerf, I just set the cursor to "0" using the FK, then added a 1/32" dado shim when using a TK. Adds 4 or 5 seconds...tops!
You didn't say which fence your buddy had, but my Shop Fox has a movable, clear, plexiglass curser that allows me to adjust the curser line whenever I change blades. My Biesmeyer fence on my old saw also had this adjustability feature.
The plexi magnifier is held onto the fence with two Phillips head screws. I just loosen the screws a little, shift the lens over a fraction and retighten the screws. Actually, after changing blades, I first cut a board, measure its width, and then set the curser to that measurement on the fence's scale.
Unlike others who have posted here in reply to your query, I find this to be a quite an accurate system. Or, more likely, I'm just not working to the same tolerances they are..
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I use thin kerf, but thats all I use so not a problem. But I will add that I don't use that tape to do the final measurement. I use it to get close and I use my tape (same one for all measurements) for the final judgement.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Me too!!!
Jaes
One thing you could do is to add a Wixey digital gauge to your fence as I did. It has the capability of being Zeroed with the push of a button when ever you want to reset it. I have found it super simple to adjust a dado now to within .001's(overkill yes).
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
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