Replies

1. 
   rreeger | Dec 06, 2003 01:16am | #1

   I have found "The Complete Dovetail" by Ian Kirby to be quite informative.

   RR

2. 
   BG | Dec 06, 2003 01:20am | #2

   don,

   Buy and study Ian Kirby's book....it's great....provides an approach as well as  detailed technique.  There is also a video here which is quite good...but without the approach..Phil Lowe.  I keep on going back to the book and the video here..and learn something new each time.  Have fun
3. 
   Alan | Dec 06, 2003 03:07am | #3

   Don,

   Saint Roy of Underhill discusses cutting dovetails in his Woodwright's Shop books.  His is a more rough and ready approach than others' but he will teach you the basics.  Besides, he's a great read:  his books are lots of fun, full of stories, anecdotes and tall tales.  It's like sitting down by the pot-bellied stove with an old friend who's also a great raconteur.

   Alan

4. 
   ChasStanford | Dec 06, 2003 03:29am | #4

   Ian's book is probably the best.  Go ahead and adopt his methodology as directed.  When you're cutting good joints you might want to drop the coping saw method of waste removal in favour of chiseling.

5. 
   ron61 | Dec 06, 2003 03:43am | #5

   I have heard that Lie Nielson has videos - you heard right- If you want to learn Dovetails get the combo deal- Hand Cut Dovetails & Advanced Hand Cut Dovetails with Rob Cosman

   This guy can cut Dovetails like you would not belive . You will not regret getting them.

   Ron
6. 
   BobSmalser | Dec 06, 2003 03:54am | #6

   Why not just pull out a drawer for an example and begin cutting them?

   Simple stuff, really....they don't even have to be gaged so long as you are scribe fitting the other piece with a good knife or awl...once you teach yourself which side of the line to cut on and to make an accurate, square cut you have it knocked.

   All this mystique on the part of the "guru's" trying to sell you their books and videos makes me yawn.

1. 
   DonStephan | Dec 06, 2003 04:16am | #7

   A video by Frank Klaus on cutting dovetails was my best resource. As a bonus, he always adds nuggets on other tools, sharpening, ... There also was an excellent pair of articles in FWW a couple years ago - one author argued for cutting the tails first and the other pins first. Tails first has worked best for me. Now if the American Pattern Ashley Iles butt chisels would get here I'd be in heaven.

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Dec 06, 2003 05:55am | #9

   Don

      Ha.. ha... I got lucky with Fine Tools for WoodWorking. They were out of Ashley Iles Amercian Pattern when I called and I went ahead and ordered. They got them the following Monday morning. I think you will like them.

      BTW, I spoke to Joel about a week ago and they are expecting a shipment soon if you didn't already know. The Ashley Iles folks make them by hand an are churning away as demand out-runs supply at the moment.

   Regards...

   srge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   VeniciaL | Dec 06, 2003 09:37pm | #10

   Bob,

   I agree that mastering dovetails is not difficult and the subject has aquired an undeserved mystique and reputation for problems. But that does NOT mean that a novice does not need instruction. Any of the sources mentioned are good, and it's also a good idea to see how different craftsman solve the same problems using almost mutually exclusive techniques - they all work.

   Riding a bicycle is not difficult either. But do you remember how hard it was before you mastered it?

   For an experienced person to express boredom with the need to repeat information for a student, and recommend a novice just "have at it" and teach himself, is not at all helpful. It's condescending and guaranteed to result in frustration and poor habits, if not failure. Re-inventing the wheel is not recommended. Learning from the experience of others is.

   VL

   Edited 12/6/2003 1:40:28 PM ET by Venicia L

1. 
   BobSmalser | Dec 07, 2003 08:31pm | #11

   "It's condescending and guaranteed to result in frustration and poor habits, if not failure. Re-inventing the wheel is not recommended. Learning from the experience of others is. "

   My apologies if that was my tone...it was not my intent.  Would be happy to take  a simple series of pics next time I do it as an example....just like my "Milling Earl's Fir" and my "Shop-Made Joiner Tools" series...and just to help folks and further the craft, NOT for profit.

   My intent is to steer folks away from spending dough they don't have to.   

   From my observation, the typical beginning woodworker is a late-20's, newly-married fella on a tight budget, perhaps with a child coming...the "nesting instinct" we all went thru at that age.  I won't knock Klausz or anyone else's video (his would be the best, I suspect)...depends on how much he's getting for it, it may be a good value or may be available used...

   ...but there seems to be a whole aggressive industry that has developed to wheedle money out of these young families that many don't have.  If you are well heeled enuf to waste money on you hobby, then have at it...but understand I'm speaking to those contemplating the choice between a Kleg Jig and or something to make that young Mom's life a little easier.

   I learned how to cut them from a flea market copy of Stanley's old "How to Work With Tools and Wood" and another little old Stanley pamphlet on cutting joints...both available as used books from amazon for pennies...and there's nuthin especially gifted about me.

   So I'll pass on my craft in the manner I choose...sometimes perhaps with a little bite against rampant consumerism when I think it's appropriate...and now that I've figured out computers and digital cameras,  I'll be happy to contribute just for the satisfaction of it.

   Do gander at my current "Milling Earl's Fir" series if you think you can learn something about the material of your craft.

   “When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.

   Edited 12/7/2003 1:06:29 PM ET by Bob Smalser

1. 
   VeniciaL | Dec 07, 2003 09:25pm | #12

   Bob,

   Thanks. I hope I did not come across too strident.

   I'd like to see your instructions posted here.

   Learning to cut dovetail joints correctly is a mini course in many techniques that are essential to craftsmanship globally. There is very little that's intuitive about the process, other than the forms (pins and tails) are supposed to fit together "perfectly." I don't think it's possible for anyone to discover many of these little hints and tips on his own. That's why knowledge has to be handed down from one generation to the next. It's the definition of a culture.

   Apart from the inevitable debate, "Pins or Tails First/Last," one learns the importance of truly square and flat stock and truly sharp tools. How to properly use a marking gauge. What angles to use and why. Using a template. Using an adjustable bevel gauge. How to space the pins and tails and why. Esthetics of the joint. The difference between a marking gauge with a knife vs a pin. How to drag a knife against a reference surface so that it doesn't follow the grain on the marked piece. Which side of the joint gets pins, which gets tails. Characteristics of the joint which provide only mechanical strength. Characteristics which ensure long grain to long grain gluing surfaces. When to use a saw and when to use a chisel. When to split the line with the cut, when to leave it fat for final paring. Deepening the marking gauge's line at the shoulder and establishing the little "V" on the waste side to guide the chopping process. How to hold the chisel. Positioning the work on the bench over the leg of the table while chopping. Using a block to guide the chisel. What size chisel to use. How to saw. What saw to use. How to file a saw and correctly set the teeth for dovetail work. How to chop out waste. How to mark the waste to prevent chopping the pin. Paring technique. Leaving the pins and/or tails proud and proper planing technique to bring them down so that a drawer (90% of dovetail joint use) correctly fits its opening. Leaving the marking lines visible when the process is finished vs removing them.

   And a myriad of other little skills. All these become second nature to the experienced craftsman, and almost invisible, but are huge stumbling blocks to the novice. "Oh, is THAT how that's done!"

   VL

2. 
   ChasStanford | Dec 09, 2003 03:50am | #16

   If the $20 bucks or so for the book is not feasible, there are PLENTY of articles on the web if one cares to do a search.

7. 
   JeffKurtz | Dec 06, 2003 05:54am | #8

   As already mentioned, "Dovetail a Drawer" by Frank Klauz is a classic.  Jim Kingshott's "Dovetails Made Simple" is another must-have.  Budget permitting, I'd get both.  (BTW, if you're like me, a video is infinitely more useful than a book.  I find it easier to understand how to do something much more easily when I see it done as opposed to reading how to do it.)

   Jeff 

   http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/061012.asp

   http://www.cambiumbooks.com/books/joints/1-892836-03-3/

8. 
   Froed | Dec 08, 2003 06:34pm | #13

   Don, check out "Dovetails Detailed" in Jeff Gorman's "A Woodwork Notebook."  I think you'll find it very useful.

   http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/dovetailindex.htm

   Froed

9. 
   withthegrain | Dec 08, 2003 11:21pm | #14

   DKF,

   Over my many years of butchering wood, I've managed to buy way too many books about the subject. If you want straight forward instructions plus clearly understood photos get the Tay Frid book on jointmaking. I think I might have mispelled his first name but that is close. He taught furniture making at RISD for years and is a great teacher. All of his books (2 maybe 3) are well done. I use them in the classes I teach and as a handy reference. Higly reccommended.

   Dennis 

10. 
    NormInFujino | Dec 09, 2003 03:07am | #15

    I also like Ian Kirby's book, but I've found that it helps (me) to look a number of different perspectives. At one point I grew so upset at trying to figure out basic DT layout that I wrote my own Dovetail tutorial for beginners (I'm still a beginner, too).

    ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

    Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

1. 
   billballeza | Dec 12, 2003 01:41am | #18

   Norm.. thanks much for posting your DT tutorial. I've printed it and plan on using your methodology, which I find the easiest to understand of any I've ever seen.

   Now, at last, I can begin using my LN dovetailing saw purchased at the last woodworking show here in Houston.

   Thanks again, Norm!

   Bill

1. 
   NormInFujino | Dec 12, 2003 03:33am | #20

   Quite welcome. I reemphasize that my way of doing layout is merely one of many, and people should use whatever works for them. ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

2. 
   BobSmalser | Dec 12, 2003 02:26am | #19

   Thanks for making that web tutorial, Norm...a great resource.“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.

11. 
    bolo | Dec 10, 2003 11:20am | #17

    Hi Don...

    I have to agree with Ron...go for the Rob Cosman video, the guy has a great system for cutting dovetails, it's fast and it works. This pic is the fifth or sixth dovetail that I had ever cut, mind you i did take a mini dovetail coarse with Rob. The only real problem with this joint is that I chopped part one tail off by mistake...oops!

    I'm a believer of good tools and good instruction, yes I own a LN dovetail saw and swear by it...proof is in the joint, just overlook my less than perfect handling of the chisel.

    I can now cut that same joint in approx 15-20 min absolutely perfect!!! 

    
    

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    Edited 12/10/2003 3:21:23 AM ET by Bolo
    

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    Edited 12/10/2003 3:22:34 AM ET by Bolo

    
    

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    Edited 12/10/2003 3:27:28 AM ET by Bolo

    
12. 
    RMillard | Dec 12, 2003 07:15pm | #21

    dkf,

    I would say the best place to start is to forget anything about it being an “art“. I say this a lot, but dovetailing and all woodworking for that matter is just sawing, chiseling or planing to a line. I have never understood the mystery surrounding dovetails, mortise and tenon joints are more difficult to cut, but get little “press” . For my first dovetails, I decided to make them by joining hardwood to hardwood, in my case birch. Using hardwood for both pieces gives you a better idea of how closely you must cut to the scribed lines, since it will not compress like soft woods. I used a Stanley dovetail saw that cost $9.95 and my Stanley chisel set I had since the 9^th grade. The only modification to the saw was to pound out all the set. Now I won’t lie to you and say the first set were good, but after a morning session, I could cut very good dovetails. Cutting and fitting is only half the battle, efficiency and a methodical approach are also important, especially when making many drawers at one time. For this I found the Frank Klause ( spelling ?) video a big help, although I could never get use to sawing the pins first, or eyeballing the spacing like he does. When working with a compressible wood like pine, I’ve found that if you let the tail board over hang the pin board, or extend over the scribe line in the case of half blind dovetails by about 1/64” (eyeballing it) when scribing, you get a very nice fit. In hardwood to hardwood or hardwood to soft wood joints, I make this over hang extremely small or non existent . I now own the Lie-Nielsen saws and Japanese dovetail chisels. The saw was an extravagance since the old Stanley did and does quite well, but the Japanese chisels were a boon to efficiency, and in a small way quality. Luckily my eyesight is such that I can see up close extremely well, but I can see ( pardon the pun) where lacking this would make dovetailing more difficult.

                                                 Rob Millard