I started yatting on about a hayraker table of the Gimson/Barnsley style in this thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=44743.1
Since then I’ve been distracted making a memorial bench. But today I resumed the wood prep of all the oak lumps extracted from the woodstore as suitable candidates for the hayraker table.
Hopefully there is an attached pdf of photos showing the machine-prep of nicely-shaped planks from geet big hunks of raggy-ersed things. The process is not that interesting but it does give a story of the standard British/Ypean process, which is not quite the same as the American one perhaps, not least because I use a planer/thicknesser rather than the usual American arrangement of jointer then planer. (Or even just planer).
The whole pile of oak chunks has now been turned into fine square, flat billets. Next stage – a bit of design refinement. I’ll be asking for help there……
I’m hoping that most of the production & refinement of pieces for the hayraker, as well as the joint-making, will be performed with handtools. It’s all those slanted 45 degree mortises made with a mortise chisel that’s frightening me just now. I think I’ll be needing to make myself a chisel guide.
The pdf file is near 2Mb which may be an issue for some. If requested, I’ll post the pics individually in low-res for dial-up-only people
Lataxe
Replies
Coincidentally there's a feature on "The Barnsley Hay Rake Table" in the current (Feb) issue of PW -- Don Weber with a lot of hand tools. Might be of interest. There are some photos online here: http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/content/binary/HayrakeTable.pdf
Jim
David, without a doubt,it's character![ In wood THAT thick,anyway].Good to see the start of another great project
R
Now that's a cool style of table. Never saw one before. I just happen to have some self-milled pine that could be perfect for this sort of thing.
How are the legs usually fastened to the top -- is there an apron, or do they just dowel/mortise directly into the top slab?
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,
The hayraker mentioned in earlier in the thread, made by Don Webber and the subject of a PopWood article in their current issue, is more like the "standard" design of the Cotswold school - although it lacks the carved edge decoration on the tabletop edge and down the legs. Also it has breadboard ends, which most Cotswold models don't have.
That table has two end aprons but no long aprons bridled into the legtops, with the top resting only on those two aprons and the four leg-tops. I believe that some Cotswold models had another hayraker immediately under the tabletop, instead of aprons. Presumably buttons are used to fasten the table to either the aprons or the hayraker.
****
My version is a hybrid of 4 aprons on the top, with drawers in one long apron; with a hayraker lower stretcher. This means that the legs will be square-sectioned at their tops (where the aprons are joined to them) but chamfered "down below" where the hayraker arms end in through tenons (through the legs at 45 degrees, that is).
At some point just below the aprons, the square inside corner of the legs will turn into chamfers via the transition of lamb's tongues. Also, the outside corners of the legs will be lightly chamfered top-to-bottom and have those diamond relief carvings in them (as will the table top edges) in Cotswold style. The outside edges of the breadboard end will be very slightly convex.
The aprons will be frame & panel, with the panels having a slightly raised centre a la Cotswold standard for such things. The apron with the drawers in will have drawers instead of panels in a similar frame. The drawers too will have that central slightly-raised panel look and sport carved loop handles, a la Gimson standard design. The end apron frames will have the ousie edges of their rails made slighty convex to match the tabletop breadboard ends' convex profile.
The legs will have quite a large X-section so I hope to dovetail the top apron rails into the leg tops all round - there should be room for two DTs at right angles to each other in those thick leg tops. The short end stiles of the apron frames will be glued & screwed to the legs, as their grain will run the same way as that of the legs. I may take out the screws and put in dowels once the glue has dried (the screws acting as temporary clamps). The bottom apron rails will be doweled into the legs via a through dowel drilled from the outside of the leg into the end of those rails. The dowels will be capped on the leg side with square pyramid-topped plugs.
So, no M&T joinery in the legs-to-aprons, but the connection of the apron rails to their stiles will use small M&Ts. As the apron panels will be quite shallow (maybe 3 inches deep) I'll probably glue them into the grooves of the aprons rails and stiles, for extra strength, even though they are solid wood. I don't think movement with consequent cracking of the panels will occur; but if it does it will become part of the piece's character! :-o
The hayraker is all M&T joints, some at 45 degrees. I hope to use a mortise chisel but I'm going to need some form of guide I think. All the tenons will be handsawn. Those that are "through" will be wedged.
I am pondering whether to avoid 45 degree M&Ts by making curved end-braces to the hayraker (so their tenons enter the arm mortises at 90 degrees) and beefing up the arm-ends where they meet the central rail (at 45 degrees) so I can double-dowel right through the whole assembly with 12 or 14mm oak dowels. This seems like it would be stronger than M&Ts, which would be quite shallow into that central rail.
And all this without anything much more than a few sketches. I don't do plans usually. :-)
Lataxe
Thank you, kind sir.
Sounds like you're trying you best to make a hard project even harder! ;-)
Progress pics would be cool.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
There's a large heap of oak billets in the shed, all now planed square, flat, crisp and even. The next job is to finalise the design of the table so I can choose which billets to resaw how in order to make all the parts, which will be slightly oversize in length. When I've done that I'll post pics of the main parts laid out to show the form of each table section (top, aprons, legs, hayraker, drawers) as well as something of the intended grain patterns.
There might even be a sketch or three on graph paper (I can't do CAD).
This should all be done sometime this coming week - although I'm entertaining the ladywife, who has been to have a slight laser-correction to her eyesight and is therefore staying off work whilst her wee peeper settles down. So, you'll understand that I'll be quite tired from all the dancin', cookin' and other energetic cavortings for her amusement.
There'll also be some questions for you lads about design and construction options......
Lataxe, picking oak spelks out of his mits.
Here is a rough plan on graph paper of the intended table. Also the heap of parts (all oversize as yet) ready for final shaping, jointing and construction.
I kept the "character" planks for the top (4 planks from resawn stock, which will be bookmatched; plus 2 breadboard ends). The most visible edges and surfaces will all show the medullary rays. Drawer sides and backs are all 5/16" quarter sawn stock. The handles and hayraker parts will be finally shaped with a fretsaw, drawknife and spokeshave when fitting together.
The apron-to-drawer joinery is slightly unconvential. Also, I've avoided 45 degree M&Ts. The hayraker arms will attach to the main beam via through dowels, which seem to me to be a stonger join than each arm having it's own stub tenon. Through tenons will be wedged.
The leg outside corners and the table top edges will all have the diamond motif carved into them, which will take ages. I can't currently decide if the diamonds should be the single or double versions - perhaps one on the tabletop edges and the other down the legs?
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Any and all comments, suggestions or alternatives on design and joinery most welcome.
Lataxe
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Nice workshop. I gotta get me one of those recliners for mine. (But where's the beer cooler?) ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Of course I have to bring the timber in when the ladywife is out at the shops, allotment or work; then get it all out again afore she comes home. Then I has to hoover up and cook the tea.
This is why that chair is needed - Ah'm tired oot!
Lataxe, gentleman woodworker.
Of course I have to bring the timber in when the ladywife is out at the shops..
I'd bet she allowed you to do it for the pictures as she went shopping....
Lataxe,
So I see you've got Bwer Wabbit posted to keep an eye/ear out for the return of the Ladywife. I'll do me best to keep Elmer back here so as not to cause a ruckus.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Sire,
Looks as though you are progressing there at a rate of knots, for sure.
I agree, keep away from them technical type plans drawn to scale complete with key: they usually result in a wooden looking thing lacking in character. The sketches serve to keep the general plan in mind and one does a stick drawing to get some distances right (;).
You ask if some of those planks are with character or not: I believe they are sound enough, especially if without centre pith. You can always employ router to do some cunning inlays where there are voids.
Must I announce to the assembled legions the forthcoming date of note?Philip Marcou
Philip,
The "forthcoming date of note": that sad day when I reach the status of "officially an ole scrote"; that is - 60 years of age. Sigh.
That date is 1st March - St David's Day, named after me, David the saintly one. :-)
There will be a wake for my lost youth, which I try to preserve by associating with the ladywife. She is the junior by 15 and a bit years and, as you know, "You are as young as who you're feeling"........
Anyroadup, all presents (of a value not less than $1300) to the Galgate shed, preferably via Voluptua's glamour-delivery firm (service with a [censored]).
Lataxe, newly-scrote
Lataxe,
"officially an ole scrote"
Thank you, I've been wonderin what happened, so I'm an ole scrote huh?
When I turned 50 the wife told me, "You know, you're gettin there".
When I turned 60 I asked her, "Am I there yet"? She told me, "You told me that was the fourth thing to go when ye git old"!
Now at 62 and pushin 63 my life has taken on new meaning; spending a lot more time in the woodshop these days. Also, young lasses KNOW you're a dirty ol scrote now!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I think you look like quite a clean dirty ole scrote. The youth don't mind if you're clean. It's when you start scratchin' and ponging that they curls their lip and mentions the excellence of the euthanasia (involuntary) policy advocated by the hospital accountants society.
Lataxe, still jigging and trotting the fandango with the ladywife.
Bob tell me if it arrives!
Now at 62 and pushin 63 my life has taken on new meaning; spending a lot more time in the woodshop these days.
And I would think AS MUCH time (Or more) with your old mate! OK, so I harp alot on some things.
Lost my wife long time ago.. She was the best... And then some.. I LOVE woodworking and children before they reach the age of 8! Two year olds I can play with!
Maybe get your mate a lathe?
Edited 2/22/2009 5:05 am by WillGeorge
David,
Interesting table for you.
I am absolutely flabbergasted that you are making such a table.
I have heard you rant and rant and rant about frou frou, yet your table, which only needs four simple legs has a lot of extraneous stuff holding it up. I am not against frou frou. I love it. But your continued words convinced me, who is now unconvinced, that you are anti-Frou-Frou.I am glad to see you have left the Dark Side and are joining in with the rest of us Frou-frou lovers. This proves that there is always hope. :-)
Mel
PS Table looks like it will be very very nice.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Rant about frou-frou? No, I only offer completely logical and unemotional arguments (which are irrefutable, oh yes they are) about how frou-frou frightens children and messes up the nice clean lines of the furniture.
As to the hayrake (note omission of "r" at the end, an important design consideration offered by Jones-the-pedant) it will have only the necessary transitions from one plane to the other, such as lamb's tongues; and proper, manly decoration of a bold and simple kind (like wot I am) in form of carved diamonds.
Looka! I even decided to leave out those butterfly thangs on the top because they are spurious and edging toward the classification "frou". I have only Huge Great Knots instead, for top decoration (they came with the planks).
As to the underpinning hayrake being "extraneous"......! Well!! What would you expect me to rest my latest copy of Fine Woodworking magazine on, as I sit in the comfy chair getting in the mood to contemplate the latest 27 foot X 13 foot jig for making a mortise & tenon on the bandsaw, eh, eh!? That hayrake is Highly Necessary and as far from frou-frou as a wheelbarrow is from the Queen's best coronation coach (which out-frou-frous all other objects in the universe).
Lataxe, a plain and simple fellow.
David,
I wouldn't pay any attention to the pendantic Richard.
Call it a Hayraker, or a Haymaker.
It is your table. You can call it what you want.
I like Haymaker best, and I like the table too. Very nice wood top.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,
an important design consideration offered by Jones-the-pedant
Rascal! Sir Richard is a pedant, eh? Hmmmmm,, I did not know that. He is missing the tam though. Do you think it ot be plaid?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/22/2009 9:11 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I would make him wear a tam, were I the beadle of that Leeds college he teaches at. Shurely it must frighten the new students - first time away from home and all wet ahind the ears, to be greeted by the wild-haired one at the workshop door holding several blunt Record plane blades and an auld oilstone? A tam would keep that unruly shock in place, at least. I believe he may have read too many "Oor Wulie" comics when a bairn and this has caused the condition.
Of course, it might be due to various exotic finishes getting sprayed onto the bonce as he gets carried away with those quick-acting lacquers and such.
The beadle also needs to make him wear troosers instead of the kilt (I cannot imagine his knees are fit to be seen); and to send me free design advice whenever I need it (most days, including weekends).
Lataxe, who was an unruly student and would like to be one again.
Bob..
Mybe you and Lataxe should go out on a Picnic.
Tam cookies deep fried in vegemite?
http://www.umamimart.com/2008/08/vegemite-rainforest-picnic.html
My reaction to Vegimite is the same as in the U-Tube video. I went to Australia two times? Each time I had to bring a case of the stuff to a Co-Worker from Australia.
I asked him if he used it as a spread on doorways and window sills to keep snakes and spiders out of the house. He went off in a 'huff'....
Or is a Tam like in this?
http://crochet.about.com/library/blwclhat1.htm
Edited 2/22/2009 12:59 pm by WillGeorge
Lataxe, a plain and simple fellow with Hayraker supports to keep him from falin' over..
I for one love the hayraker or is that hayrake?.. If I needed a new woodworking bench I would make one with the Hayraker to hold it all together. Maybe even two of them. One in the middle also!
I think it is a wonderful design but I admit I'm a bit strange...
WillG,
You -strange!? Not as strange as that pic you found of Richard in his tam:
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It musta been when he were a lad, just before he was sent off to be apprenticed to that fierce old Scot who made him sharpen blades on the kerb.
Lataxe
the Dark Side ..
Winter gettin' to me ALOT!
I'm pullin'out the old VCR and watchin' my collection of 'The Dark Side' tonight!
David, I am older that you by 4 years so I know where you are coming from on your approaching BD. I have a friend who has a sign in his shop that puts a different perspective on it. It says "Over the hill, and picking up speed!" Now that is the way we should approach getting older!!
If by chance you get too feeble to push them Marcou jewels, let me know, I will be glad to send you the postage to ship them to me. I have had some correspondance with Philip about my dream tool, but the bucks are just not available yet. Maybe you can take pity on a old man..... nah!
Have fun, and congrats on your BD!!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Bruce,
Ever since I read Ayn Rand I don't do pity. (Yes I do). :-)
But you ask too much pity if you think I'm gonna let you get your mits on a-one o' my steel & brass beauties. Mine, all mine!
I like the "over the hill and picking up speed" sentiment. I must find the T-shirt. It can join the ones that say, "Old Dog - Anxious to Learn New Tricks" (picture of bounding old hound) and "Aged to Perfection" (picture of septic blue cheese) .
There's a couple more T-shirts that the ladywife makes me wear however: "Gone to seed" (picture of scraggy-looking plant) and "The Best Thngs in Life Have Fleas" (picture of tatty old cat). Is she trying to give me a hint about summick?
Lataxe, still full of vinegar but trying not to be redolent of the other fluid yet, as this is a sure sign of age.
David, I didn't really expect you to give them up, but one can hope!! If I ever get my hands on one, or two, they will probably go to the grave with me, well used. Philip is a mastercraftsman in every sense on the word!!!!!!
For now I will have to putter on with my LN and LV planes. They do a good job, but I know I could do better with a Marcou!
Bruce
"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Edited 2/18/2009 9:12 am ET by Wingdoctor
Today I was waylaid by a shiney new camera. However, the tabletop got jointed and glued up despite the desperate need to play with the new toy (I mean serious photographic tool).
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The edges of the tabletop planks get jointed with a Mujingfang tryplane.
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The jointed boards are put "dry" into the vise to check there are no gaps and that they lie in a flat plane (i.e. them edges are at 90 degrees to the faces). If it falls over, its wrong. Also, I must not be able to see Eileen next door hanging out the washing, through the plank-gaps.
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The Plano press does its thang, with a little extra squidge-force courtesy of a couple of Record T-bar cramps. Lookit that wild grain around the knots and such - a workout for a Marcou is on the way!
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The next job (besides putting the breadboard ends on to the top) is to shape the hayraker parts and the legs, ready for the M&Ts and the Big Through Dowels that will connect the central beam to the 4 arms. Here are the parts laid out to check the dimensions and make sure the top & aprons will fit aright. There will be lots of handsawing tomorrow.
I must arrange the grain in all these bits to look its best......
Lataxe
David,
A very handsome collection of timber bits,indeed.Do I sense an air of excitement floatin' about,even at THIS distance?
Robin.
I have seen several plans for a hayraker table but none of them give you the order in which to glue up the table.Could you elaborate?Domer
Domer,
Slight confusion,I think! It's Lataxe who's embarked on this project....I'm just one of many who're [that looks a bit odd,don't it?!] watching on in awe as it progresses.
Wish it WAS me,mind you.
Robin
Domer,
You have hit on a very important aspect of this hayraker thang. I had a vague intuition that the order of glue-up would be an issue - and so it proves once one begins to sketch the parts, plan the joints and consider the construction process. I came up with this:
Make the top first then the hayraker.
The size of the top determines the footprint of the legs and therefore the dimensions of the hayraker. So, I'm making both together as the first stage. Knowing the actual dimensions of the top (as opposed to what I planned) I feel confident about sawing the hayraker parts to length and making the various joints.
In fact, the top has turned out to be longer and less wide than the original plan specified (120cm X 56cm rather than the original 90cm X 60cm). This is partly because of how the planks for the timber turned out after resawing and partly because the ladywife made a "design change" after seeing the original footprint laid out in-situ using just the legs, in the room where the table will go.
The hayraker has 7 parts (1 main beam, 2 curved end-braces and four arms-to-the-legs). All have been cut to the same thickness but oversized. I've laid them out with the parts overlapping then placed the legs on top of the layout, so I could move the parts about until the legs are "in the footprint" - distanced from each other as they will be when installed in the table.
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This gives the location of all the joins between the hayraker parts, which I then pencilled on to those parts. This shows where the mortises and tenons must go, between the hayraker part and also hayraker arms-to-legs.
Assemble the hayraker and legs
The two curved end braces can be through M&T'd to the main beam first. The hayraker arms are then laid on this (dry) assembly to check where the curved braces will M&T to them; and where the arms will be through-dowelled together through the main beam. The curved braces are then M&T's to the arms. With all again loose-assembled and clamped, the through dowel-holes are drilled through arm-ends and main beam. This gives the basic hayraker assembly.
The hayraker is then disassembled so the tenons on the arm ends and the matching through mortises in the legs can be cut. Once these are done, the whole (hayraker and legs) will be glued up. To ensure that everything is square, the top of the legs will be braced with temporary beams that are the same lengths as the table aprons will be. Through tenons are wedged; through dowels (2 per arm-beam-arm) are capped with square plugs.
Make the aprons and fit
The aprons are frame & panel, with one long apron having two drawers instead of two panels. The aprons can be made to exact length then lowered between the leg-tops, with the top rail of each frame DT'd into the top of the legs. The vertical end-stiles of the apron-panels are screwed & glued to the legs, with the screws removed and replaced by dowels (just to fill the screw holes) once the glue has dried. This will be a good glue join as the grain of legs and stiles runs in the same direction.
If the aprons were solid and attached to the legs by M&Ts, this order of assembly would not be possible. hayraker and aprons would have to be joined to the legs at the same time.
Make and fit the drawer assemblies
The aprons will have been DT'd before assembly for the various drawer rails, stretchers and kickers, which will be installed once the aprons are glued in. The assembly is straightforward but would take a lot of describing. (You must be bored of reading this by now anyway). :-)
The drawers are made with quarter-sawn 8mm oak sides and backs, blind dovetailed into 25mm thick drawer fronts. Bottoms will be NK style. This allows easy fitting of drawers to their 'oles as one need only plane the NK-bottom edges until the drawer slides easily but with no side-to-side play.
Easy, eh!?
Lataxe, still cutting endless M&Ts
Are you saying that the aprons are connected to the legs with sliding dovetails?I thought you would have to glue up the legs and aprons in one operation if you mortise and tenoned the aprons to the legs. That sounds like a three person operation at best. Domer
D,
I've managed to organise the joints so that virtually every one could be glued in isolation from the others. The aprons will be made one at a time, for example, and the frame & panel parts of them fitted to the legs in stages. I hate huge, complex, everything-at-once glue-ups.
Only the top rail of the aprons is going to be DT'd into the leg-tops. However, your sliding DT remark has got me thinking. That is certainly a possibility and would still allow bit-at-a-time glue-up that could also be post-hayrake glue-up.
The method I'm contemplating for apron-to-leg join, at the moment, allows me to make all the joints with handtools, despite it taking ages. I draw the line at making 4 sliding DTs with handtools though; but maybe the router table and the woodrat will be allowed to make a small contribution......
Lataxe
Lataxe
hayraker table.. Your looks better that the one PBS Woodwright's.
But then again made in the USA by a old Welshman? The table is at the very end of the video. Just a short section at the very end. By the way, great work so far!
Yes.. You have to watch a short insurance advertisement first. At least for me I could move the slider to the end for a look. However, It is my kind of thing so I watched it all.
A Viking Tool Chest
http://flash.unctv.org/woodwrightss/wws_2812.html
Edited 2/21/2009 9:12 am by WillGeorge
I can't resist makining the correction any longer Lataxe. The style is not 'Hayraker', it's simply 'Hayrake', a la Barnsley. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
You are hereby named The Pedant of Leeds. ;-)
Now, this criticism of the name is all very well but where is the learned advice concerning the proposed design and construction? Shurely I do not have to join your course at the college and do all that cross-Pennine travelling!?
Please post detailed drawings and the associated 7 pages of notes here by Monday (a handy Sunday activity for you).
Lataxe
Pedant! Ha. Just accurate.
Now, regarding that Sunday task of doing all the design work for you along with all the costruction notes. There's no need for you cross the Pennines for tutelage and guidance under my large and generous wing. I'll simply apply the appropriate consultancy rates and post the package across to you. A cheque, non-rubber variety, will do nicely.
I see a free Sunday is approaching; it's the first Sunday of December this year. Is that soon enough, ha, ha? Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Now that is the way we should approach getting older!!
I'd say get out of the bed and go to the bathroom or have a ceramic pot to pee in!
Edited 2/19/2009 7:45 pm by WillGeorge
A wise man once told me "If after 40 years of age, you get up in the morning and something doesn't hurt; you know you died during the night." He was right too, for at least the 24 years it seems that I have a pain somewhere every morning. We can me thankful for the pain, because if we can feel pain we know we are still among the living!
My oldest daughter turned 42 yesterday, and she is also constantly complaining that something hurts.
Hang in there, as I do, we'll ignore the pain, and keep on making wood chips.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
we'll ignore the pain, and keep on making wood chips
I try but have to keep my gut from falling out when I cough. AND I was always a thin man!
David the saintly one. Yep we ALL have our problems!
Nasty wood or full of character? I would say both
It's all those slanted 45 degree mortises made with a mortise chisel that's frightening me just now.
Get a framing chisel or let the 'lady wife. do it for you!
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