It seems to have taken an age…..but at last the thang is ensconced and doing it’s job as library-come-coffee table. First a few pics of it’s form, followed by a couple of it in situ.
As you may notice, Spring is well sprung at Galgate.
Those planks used for the top were cut off the ends of much larger planks by the chap who donated the ends to me. He rejected them as too gnarly for making stuff. Ah ha! Lookit that fine swirly grain, though but!
Photos with a few of the details follow. The main aspect sought (after “fit for purpose” and “won’t fall to bits”) was “agricultural”. So what do y’all think? Has it achieved the demeanour of a C19th farm cart; and if it has, does this exclude it from the category “fine furniture”?
And here it is installed:
All comments but particularly criticism are very welcome. I would like to make a few more pieces in the Cotswold A&C style but using their motifs and general design-approach, rather than just copying an historical piece wholesale. So any comments concerning proportion, grain-orientation, colour and so forth would be very useful.
Comments about the “agricultural” thang would be very welcome indeed, as this is the aspect which I feel could easily turn a piece from “good” to “ugly lump”.
Incidentally, those magisterial crows are discussing the case of a certain Knots miscreant, who they have already found guilty. (They find everyone guilty and don’t accept the concept “innocent”). It is merely the punishment they are discussing, which punishments are never lenient.
Lataxe
Replies
A 10!
A very handsome and worthy effort and all the work you put in shows, It does look hand done by a craftsman as you implied you wanted.
To me, had I been on tour and was shown it as a representative piece of an era or style, I would have said it was something that I would like to try.
No critique- I like it as it stands.
Well Done and Bravo!
I agree. It is beautiful. It shows the time and skill you took to make it. You should write a book about the techniques of building the hayrake. All of the books I have seen just tell you how to mill the parts but don't tell you about how to put it together.Great work.Domer
D,
I too would like there to be a handy book, of the type produced by Taunton or Pop Woodwork, that goes into the construction as well as the design aspects of the Cotswold and related A&C traditions. There is no such book, as far as I know, so I have read a number of Gimson - Barnsley biographies and studied a number of those photo-essay books to try and get details.
But these books are oriented at subject matter other than construction. There are still some mysteries for me concerning things like other common edge-carving motifs and the detail of those wedged butterflies seen in tabletops by Mr Gimson and the Barnsley men.
I managed to persuade the curator at the Cheltenham Town museum to let me take a photo or two of the chip-carved edges of their large hayrake; this was the only way I could get at the detail, as the illustrations in the books I have just didn't have enough resolution to make out detail.
If I was a go-getting publisher, I might even now be knocking at the doors of museums and collectors in an attempt to persuade them to let me do a book about Cotswold A&C, like this one about Greene & Greene which I found very useful indeed when I made a G&G desk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greene-Design-Elements-Workshop/dp/0941936961/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243528910&sr=1-1
But I'm a lazy ole scrote so someone else will have to knock on them doors and put the book together. I'll be their first customer though. :-)
Lataxe
L,
I'm not sure what Charles would say (well, alright I am pretty sure what he would say), but I am impressed. It is very well proportioned, and at least from the pictures looks like it has always been there. That is, it looks classic and not new- a real achievement. Very nice work.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Yeah, we already know what Charles would say:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=46730.8
Sean,
Well, you must take some of the blame for this item, as I would perhaps never have made it without taking in some of your talk concerning the hand of the maker and the intimacy of working wood with handtools. Even if I had made it without benefit of this change of mindset, it would have looked very different - how would one have got the woodrat to make them diamonds? I'm sure there will be a way. :-)
My tastes have changed through trying a different attitude to making and a different toolset to go with it. That Ray Pine always said it: "Tastes change". Perhaps one day I will even make a frou-frou thang with a bollock & claw? (No, no - I must not become hysterical)!!
There are a couple of machine-made items high on my to-do list, to be made in that way as the recipients prefer the crisp, modern look rather than "agricultural" or even "handmade". I will enjoy the process of their making, as ever I did. (The new toy, a Festool Domino, will add to the excitement). However, I confess that it's now the handtool pieces that really get me looking forward to their making with the greatest pleasure.
Lataxe
That's very kind of you, David. I'll take all the credit for that table. In fact, please ship it to me ASAP so I can show my friends and family what I've managed to accomplish through nothing more than silly posts on Knots.
Really, I'm just the particular pilgrim you happened to meet along the road to Canterbury here. There were plenty before and will be plenty after who have come to love hand tools and seek to infect others with this virulent virus.
So go forth and spread the good news ... thy Marcou has come, his will be done.
G,
"...it looks classic and not new...."
And I didnae even have to hit it with a chain! :-)
Thank you for that compliment, although (like Samson) I was about to mention that even Charles liked it!! (Is this a good thing - well, let us hope so and that even that naughty man has a bit of good-elf struggling to get out the goblin part).
The question is: what next of this kind? It could be addictive, all this chipping with a chisel and hacking chunks out with a drawknife.
Lataxe
Very impressive, Master L!
I don't think I would have a criticism. Being able to first run my hand over and under it would be needed, I think. It is a lovely work from what I see, fine and fit for any home.
Well done!
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Well, if you want to run yer mits over that table's seductive little body you will have to travel immediately to Galgate. Don't forget to bring several saws and sawfiles, as I may have to trap you in my shed until I have milked you of all your knowledge (and the saws of course). :-)
It wouldn't be all bad. The ladywife would spoil you rotten. Also, I may introduce you to my quack, who is quite competant as he was brought along in The National Health Service and is prevented by Queenie's men from needlesly issuing expensive products from the alchemist. Of course, he would probably make you ride your bicycle for 25 miles each day whilst grinning, "No pain, no gain".
Just imagine yoursen, sat in the comfy chair by that table, lights low, grog in hand and the ladywife busy in the kitchen making supper.
See you next week then. :-)
Lataxe
Standing O! Great great work. An heirloom.
Lataxe,
"Has it achieved the demeanour of a C19th farm cart"
No wheels. And the singletree is so low to the ground, it will allow for only geese or small dogs to be hitched to it.
Other than that, I'd call it a good job. As they say in my neck of the woods, "It might not be much for purty (with those gnarly falling out knots and such), but it's he11 for strong!"
No for just a bit of whingeing. I know it's all the latest fashion for you techhy endowed guys to show your photography /tech skills by embedding those pics within your messages--but-- for those of us in the hinterlands, still on s--l--o--w--s--p--e--e--d dialup, it takes forever and a day to read your posts, then just as dam long to reply while the "Here's the message you are replying to" downloads with the pics all over again!
Oooh, was that a personal attack?
Ray, ducking the Knots police
Ray,
Time to upgrade your box of magic wires! Also, whilst the fit of modernisation is upon ye, scrap that old motor-chugger and get one of these. You know it makes sense and Maddy will be pleased with you:
View Image
Notice, I have had the pedals removed as you will probably want to scoot it along, in boneshaker fashion. There is no understanding these desires for C18th and C19th modes but we must be tolerant of periwig obsession and the clinging to dial-up technology.
Now, you are anti-knot I see. I suppose they frightened your carving chisel with their intransigence and propensity to spit compressed bark in yer eey. Must I make yet more photos to show the luscious beauty of these hard-swirlers, especially when stuffed with Mr Brummer's magic paste? You will only moan about the download time.
Lataxe, thoroughly modernised despite his incredible age.
PS, I have opened negotiations with that Chris Pye for carving edukashun. He is only available after September as for the summer he goes on a mission to your beknighted country, in order to teach the hoary natives how to wield their chisels proper-like. What a saint he must be. Perhaps he will call at your shed and show you how to sharpen properly? :-)
Notice, I have had the pedals removed ..
And nothing revealing a motor!
Lataxe,
Ahh, you know me too well. This is after all, more to my taste:
View Image
But, really this makes more sense, don't you agree? Why pedal?
View Image
And, it has a wooden frame, not unlike your oxcart table in style.
"Contact! Smedley, elevate the training wheels! I'm about to engage the flywheel!" Clatter, clatter, belch of smoke... Excelsior!"
The dialup connexion, is alas the only option for us out here in the hinterlands, where even the sunshine must be piped in from elsewhere. Hence our predeliction for what you see as clinging to the old ways; you see, they are still new to us!
Cheers,
Ray
Edit:
ps by all means send Mr Pye to see me. Gawd I wish someone would teach me to sharpen! Preferably using a method that has plenty of frippery, gimcracks, and a gew-gaw or two.
Edited 5/29/2009 7:39 am ET by joinerswork
Ray,
It's no good pretendin' whilst doing secret training. My spies have been keeping an eye on you and snapped this pic not far from your hoosey:
View Image
I am glad to see you have lost a bit of weight already but you must see about some clipless pedals and associated shoes. What will you do if a snook doesn't see you in time and strikes up at the bare tootsies in it's alarm? Snook-bite of the toe can be fatal!
Also, I think a "cricket guard" might be appropriate, given the short distance from that big whizzing wheel to your vital appendage.
Soon you will be riding crits with that Maddy!
Lataxe
PS Do they still deliver your physical post via a bloke on a sweaty horse? One tends to forget that the USA has only just been civilised in its farther reaches, so no wonder you're stuck with morse code and have to pedal An Ordinary! I will mention your dilemma to British Telecom; perhaps they can send some bigger wires to your local telegraph company.
Lataxe,
"given the short distance from that big whizzing wheel to your vital appendage."
Is that a waterstone in that lad's pocket, or are is he just glad to see you?
BTW, that can't be a pic of me, as I would be sensible and ride the other way round. That way, it's always going downhill.
But,
.. -. -.. .. .- -. ... .-. ..- .-.. . ,
dah dit-dah,
Ray
Are you sure you don't have Sidney Barnsley locked in your shed and you added the carvings? :>) Frankly.. I have always liked agricultural (we just call if farm furniture in my neck of the woods) as it is robust and can accomodate heavy abuse... and it serves a function which it was intended. You made it with what you had available. But.. I grew up in what was a farming area during my child-hood so it was everyday fare to see this type of furniture.
I don't see it as farm furniture nor fine (what is fine?) furniture taking into account what I just said. Perhaps "fine farm furniture" with the addition of the carvings as there is no real function in them except to give it a more refined look. It pleases the lady-wife to have them in her home but add no function.
Bottom line is the piece is very pleasing to me.. robust (one look telegraphs strength with the joinery and oak) and will undoubtedly serve a function. I have no philosophical view... I just really personally like it and would love to have it in my home where "fine" (whatever that is) does not reside. :>)
Excellent job regardless of what you were attempting to achieve in your hopes.
Sarge..
Sarge,
"Fine farm furniture". I can see it on the glossy leaflets now, should the pension ever wane and I need to (spit) work for a living. :-)
You haven't noticed that little problem with the top, though; possibly as I took the photos with the light just-so, in case you spotted it and reminded me of my critical comment concerning a certain A&C oak table top of your own, not so long ago.
The top is is made from two 9/4 planks resawn and planed to make four planks of just over 1 inch thick. They were bookmatched to give some symmetry to the grain patterns in the top. The thick planks were QS and naturally I hoped that those medullary rays would pop out all over in the resawn planks.......
However, although the two central bookmatched planks are well rayed-up, only one of the outer ones is! Doh!! The grain turned from vertical-to-the-plank-face, when one thick plank was resawn into two, just enough so that most of the medullary rays are "buried" a degree or four down in the surface of one plank. The other plank of the pair is all good and ray-filled. Dagnabbit!
Still, it can be lived with; and (as is often the case with these little obsessions of we makers) no one else seems to notice. Phew.
Lataxe
Frankly.. it's just the way the cookie crumbles in reality. At the time I did the mission coffee table.. I could not afford to purchase more lumber. I get a great deal but you call and say ask for 60 board feet. My supplier will cut it at the mill down the hill and have it ready that afternoon. But.. they do not stock QS in white oak to pick through as most of their other species. You have to take the various grain and degree of darkness or light from the section of actual log they QS'ed from and make them work to the best of your ability.
And.. to bolster what you stated about the grain fleck changing to direct grain when you re-sawed... I purchased 150 board feet (and used 140) for the current computer desk-hutch I have almost finished. I did miles of re-saw on that baby for veneer because using solid would have warranted at least another 60 board feet at $4.20 (U.S.) a bd. ft. I had to second mortgage the paid for home to get the original 150 BD. :>)
I re-sawed some boards down to 1/8" that were 64" long. What I found with the QS is it will indeed on some pieces show fleck on the two outer sides and one or two pieces in the center be straight grained more or less? I don't have a scientific explanation for why but.. it is most definitely something I need to know from experience to plan on future projects.
Again... it is a piece of farm furniture you have built... it looks great and that includes the top piece which I did notice and the knots on the end boards. We can call it character as anything to do with country living IMO should have a ring of character.
The imperfections IMO make a bold statement... we have a few scars because we actually live life as it is meant to be lived... we don't have fine furniture but we do have the things we need to function daily as we build them from what we have available..
When we are hungry.. we eat.. When we are tired .. we rest.. When we are thirsty.. we drink.. the remainder of the time we work and if there is any time for leisure left.. we play. We are proud of our scars as they have a beauty that won't be seen on display in a museum where there are signs posted that state.. Do Not Touch.
Again.. if you haven't already determined it... I really like the piece and I am sure the Lady-wife likes the carvings as women do like a few refinements beyond what we men do. If it make them happy.. we compromise and carve away.. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Well them sum of your efforts has yielded one very nice piece of furniture.
As another has written, BRAVO...... A hundred years from now it will appear to the observer to be 300 years old . What next? I am getting spoiled by these picture laden threads.
Tom,
Tom,
Well, when a chap gets spoiled (with pictures of furniture, chocolates, a good wife) he should at some point reciprocate. Therefore I yam looking forward to your own photo essay with great anticipation. Should it be accompanied by the distribution of chocolates to all commentators, all well and good!
Lataxe, who blames Sean for the Photo essays too.
Nice scale and proportions, the carvings give the table the look of hand craftsmanship. I'm not a big fan of oak, but I actually love that table!
I am not qualified to comment but I will anyway. I think you scored on all counts that you were shooting for. It definitely says 19th century farm to me - and in a really original way. I especially like the pieces of wood you chose for the top. I prefer all my pieces have wood that has some "flaws" that make them interesting.
I really do not see anything to criticize. It is much better than my most ambitious work.
Congratulations
Brent
WOW simply stunning Lataxe! Thanks for sharing the building process as well. All the steps along the way made me appreciate the final product even more. What's next?
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
"What's next"?
A good question. I have a fancy to make a Cotswold-style oak bedding chest, which would have cogged DTs, very heavy chamfering and a curved frame & panel top. I need that construction book!
And let us not forget The Toad, an A&C desk from this same area of the A&C tradition but which is nothing like this agricutural stuff.
View Image
Lataxe
Wow pretty challenging. I've never heard of those. My ultimate goal is to make a bombay chest, but its quite a few years and projects away. Good luck. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
jai-zus! what a toad! not to mention the challenge. are ye headin' for the masterpiece? the hayraker's beautiful. could not comment till now as i cannot see the pics on my at-work screen, the wife's is higher in tech. to date, i've not had the cajones to post pics of my ww efforts. however, cajoling, from the likes of your cajon-ic wonderfulness might yet serve to instill the cabosh on my cajonlessness.thanks lataxe.
eef
Eef,
In cyberspace, all is possible and even very naughty boys get forgiven. In such a lax regime why worry about posting some pics of your work? After all, what is extant cannot be denied and maybe we will all coo in delight? In any case, constructive criticism is useful stuff.
Am I crying about them hayrake drawer fronts and wrong DTs? Of course not. (sob, choke, sniffle).
Go, on, go on, go on - you know you want to. :-)
Lataxe
Sir,
You really must replace that hutch in the left background. I'm afraid it looks out of place and not up to your standards. That table is definitely Fine.
Thank you so much for the book reference and I do hope Mr. Lang pops in for a look.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Yes, that glass-fronted cabinet thang (a hutch is where rabbits live, in Blighty) was bought some 30 years ago, well before I ever thought of working wood. It and the similarly-coloured fire suround will indeed be going, when I gets around to making oaken replacements in some kind of English A&C style.
*****
Perhaps we ought to persuade that Bob Lang bloke to go on his hollies to Gloustershire, where he might call in to the Cheltenham Town Museum and other furniture-filled facilities with his sketch pad and a pocket of bribes for the curators? He is expert at doing construction how-to books so could surely publish a Cotswold one in just a week or two. :-)
I've been scouring the books I have on Gimson and the Barnsleys for details of the various oak chests they made. The photos are frustratingly lacking in clues concerning detailed construction; in fact, they seem to indicate "bad" techniques, with large lengths jointed having the grain at right-angles. I suspect there is some construction detail that allows this joinery without danger of a split or disintegration but can't figure it out from the photos of the whole piece.
Lataxe
Way to go Lataxe !
Yes comes under Fine in my book. Don't take this negatively but it reminds me of the southwest furniture that they built here in the USA in the old days in the next state over from me in New Mexico. I believe they didn't carve such hard wood though. They used the soft stuff. Also the New Mexico stuff is more rustic where your work shows a more gracious hand.
Criticism: None. I was surprised by how thick the drawer fronts are but I like them. I like them very much.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/28/2009 10:03 pm by roc
Roc & Philip,
Yes (ahem) them drawer fronts. :-J (That's a sheepish grimmace emoticon by the way).
The sides were going to be blind DT'd into the drawer fronts, which would have then been 11mm thinner. So, first I managed to cut the drawer sides too short, measuring them agin' the bottom runners when I shoulda measured them agin' those runners + drawer fronts.
So, I could've (should've) made the drawer carcases a bit shorter and continued with the blind DTs. But I decided just to stick the drawer fronts onto a 4-sided carcase so that I could preserve the length of the drawer internals. The drawers are now internally as deep as intended but there is that over-thick drawer front stuck on them. (Sigh). So I'll have to call it "agricultural" (it'll never wear out). :-)
****
I have noticed the SW style from New Mexico and in fact once made a kitchen table not a million miles away from that style. It was for a friend who had spent some time working in the SW USA and become enamoured of various Spanish, Mexican and Native art/artifacts.
The table was a four-tapered-legs-on-the-corners job of spalted and rippled sycamore with some thick 6mm cherry stringing laid into the top in various patterns reminiscent of jaggy SW USA motifs I found here and there. There were also a number of small inlaid shapes of, as I remember, London Plane (often called lacewood here) and sapele. It had a couple of slim drawers that had chili-shaped handles - metal not carved by me though.
This was entirely machine-made (my early phase) so perhap slacked true rusticity. But once oiled and waxed it did look rather swish, if I sez so meself. No photos unfortunately; and the fellah who has it now lives somewhere in depths of Glasgei, I know not where.
Lataxe, who has made a bed up for Philip but cannot afford to send the first class air fare as he's spent all his lolly on posh planes.
I am truly very impressed... it appears that you have achieved a pretty advanced level of skill with your carving tools. This is a great table! Fantastic work! The one and only criticism I can reasonably offer would be that I think it would look even greater with a few nice handmade nails with large heads in some of the joints (this could just be my personal prejudice... smith's who make nails think most furniture needs a few).
I really like the style, and the work on this one is truly stunning! I think you are a journeyman carver now!
Clay
Big,
Now, dinnea get carried away with that "journeyman carver" talk - you will swell my already big head until the hats don't fit! I daren't post any pics of my aborted attempts at some real relief carving, as you would then snicker loud enough for me to hear right across the Atlantic.
I yam going to take the finacial hit and place myself in the hands of one Chris Pye for a week. I understand he is quite good with the carving chisels but also with the teaching, even of a cackhand like moi. He is on a mission to the States just now, to show Ray Pine and other of your native frou-frouers how to carve proper; but returns in the Autumn.
The ladywife will also attend the course (one gets a discount for doubling the student-count) and she will be after larnin' how to carve small, elegant animalistic shapes in the round. I am hoping they are not part of some some spell to transform me into something more biddable, such as a friendly dawg or an old cat too knackered to claw up the curtains.
***
Nails - I like nails. Somewhere there is a pitch pine table I made from an old beam that held a factory roof up, that has both original and some modern-copy nails in it. Opinions seem to polarise concerning the nails. Some like their added rusticity and indication of timber origin. Others curl a lip and pull out the IKEA catalogue.
Lataxe
I like it. Maybe one day I will reach the requisite skill level to turn out something like that although that will probably require an OD of lengevity drugs.
I'm not sure what "farm" style is meant to be. Over here we have "rustic" which, however, tends to be much simpler. Call it "village carpenter" style. Your table certainly conveys a rustic appearance without the oh-so-obvious artificial aging achieved by hitting it with chains, firing shotguns at it or whatever.
Essentially you captured the right spirit and did not spoil the effect by attempting to make it impersonate an antique. Congrats!
Dave,
"Village Carpenter". That's exactly right as I understand Mr Gimson and the Barnsleys used the architecture of wheel and wagonwright-men to inform their furniture-making. In fact, their style became known as "Cotswold" because they moved out of the city to the Gloustershire countryside (Cotswold country) specifically to find these old woodworking traditions, which were dying out in most places even in the early 1900s.
As to skill - you might be surprised at how easy the chip-carving and chamfering is. (I was; and Im a cackhand). If you took those elements away that table would look quite ordinary, really.
I would like to be a real crver. As I can't afford the longevity drugs, I'm trying to preserve my aging shell with enormous amounts of exercise instead. (What doesn't kill yer makes yer stronger). I hope to be able to make a passable relief carving after a decade or two of practice, especially if that Chris Pye manages to bang some technique into my thick heed.
Lataxe
Squire,
It is delightful, of great character, and it looks superb in that setting. Just right. The Management is no doubt well pleased, as there is ample evidence of a healthy return on Capital Invested.
I would like to visit and share a stiff noggin or two and a muffin at The Table.
Questions- how thick are the drawer fronts and why are they that thick?And have you signed name or placed evidence of the maker on it? And will there be a matching chair or two?Philip Marcou
Edited 5/29/2009 2:44 am by philip
Philip,
No matching chairs but I have a yen to make a carved motif representing my name - perhaps the semblance of a Lataxe-rampant?
As to invested capital - yes indeed. I expect you can see the unmistakeable footprint of Marcou-tool here and there? But I must make a confession on behalf of us both here:
Until this tabletop I have never needed to scrape, as all timbers and surfaces succumbed to the Marcou BU planes with their various cutting angles. Roey iroko? Easy! Eyed or curly maple? No problemo! However, knotted, bark-included, branch-split oak? - oh.
So, although most of that swirl-pot of a top was planed with the high angled S15A, I'm afraid the thick scraper you made for me was needed for them knot-fests in the middle. This is what happens when one pushes the envelope.
Lataxe
Excellent, excellent.
But not too much about Superior Tools or the fact that That Scraper is very thick, unbendable, diamond hard and made from Unobtainium steel heat treated by aliens, lest you be labelled a Goblin- when in fact it is your appointed role to exorcise all Goblins and their sycophants.
But I digress: I forgot to mention in previous post that the dufftails are not in keeping , not in keeping: why did you make them of machine made appearance/layout?Philip Marcou
Pilp,
Heh - them dovetails are definitely in the faulty bucket. Now, if you seed them up close you'd realise they be handmade (cackhandmade to be accurate). A certain lack of DT gauge and knife lines (sawing by eye) does lend them wonk and crudity.
But the spacing (from a distance, certainly) is too like that of the machine perhaps. And them fat fronts...... Must I remake those drawers? Well, I supose I might as it will take half the effort 2nd time around. I must find a use for the rejects, though-but, as we cannot waste QS oak!
******
Where did you get your aliens and how are they trained to do that speshul heat treatment? Can they make wrought strap hinges for Gimson-style oak chests? If so, send one here (the good-looking one, for preference) but keep it's Ray gun locked up.
Lataxe, citizen of The Universe.
And I thought a hayrake was just a plain old bench with strength!
You have brought it into modern times with CLASS!
Thanks for the pictures.. Especially the lovelywife.. She is good to look at!
Roc,
I got your private email. I responded but immediately received an automated message saying that my response could not be delivered. The reason given was
"Status: over quota"I have no idea what that means. This is the first time I have ever had a problem with someone receiving a message from me, and the first time I have seen the "over quota" phrase. In any case, there was nothing in my response to you that is earth shaking, so you can live well without it. I just wanted to let you know that I did respond. Thank you for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This is the first time I have ever had a problem with someone receiving a message from me.. Sort of like talking to a child that had other things on their mind?
WG.
Freddy was here from Monday through Thursday, so I have some recent experience with giving direct orders like "Freddy, please don't go out in the street." and having absolutely no effect on the kid. He is in his wild exploration period now, so I pretty much stand next to or behind him when he is in the front yard. It is a lot of fun. I take him on a long walk in his stroller every day. He likes three things: animals, birds and other kids, in that order. So we break for dogs, cats, rabbits, squirrels, birds and toddlers. I showed him a piece of wood I had grooved and said "rabbet". He shook his head and said "No". He knows animals, but he just doesn't know anything about woodwork. So i am teaching him. We have started with his favorite tool, the C clamp, which he can work pretty well. Soon we will be putting something in the clamp. Right now that is a bit too complex. Have fun. Give yours a hug for me.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Have fun. Give yours a hug form me. Mel
Sure hope I do not get punched in the nose for the fifth time! MY nose is so crooked as I am.. He was the town bully and I 'THINK' I think he lost the fight,,, Not sure.
Lataxe,
Wonderfull piece of "fine furniture. It turned out beautifull!!!!!
Taigert
Sir David, very nice indeed. No criticism from this end, just a bit of envy. Nicely done.
Gracious, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through these posts. I had to revisit all of them to truly appreciate the scope. I do like those crisp macro photos, yes.
> Is it Fine?
View ImageHave you read The Nature &Art of Workmanship, by David Pye? IMHO, he has codified what we mean when we say "Fine," as in Fine Furniture. There is no doubt in my mind that your table is Fine, indeed. Rest assured. If your logical right-brainyness requires rational explanation for why your emotional sinister-cerebellum is content, seek out Mr. Pye.
> However, I confess that it's now the handtool
> pieces that really get me looking forward to their
> making with the greatest pleasure.
I think he also explains what it is about handtools that are so rewarding. It's not explicit; rather, it's his take on "Fine" that reveals why these sorts of things are rewarding. It's easy to see that it took skill, as in handtool skill, to execute such a design.
> This is what happens when one pushes the envelope.
OK, this is starting to sound like a commercial for the book... Mr. Pye uses risk vs. certainty to illuminate why it rewarding. You certainly took risks here, and I think it paid off handsomely, in several different ways.
As to your request for design critique, I think you've already identified the only thing that I could possibly mention about this Fine table: the disc-herniating, fear-inducing, skittish-apprentice-holding massiveness of the base. Reducing the weight, both visually and physically, with carefully-chosen drawknifery is one possible solution. I think the suggestion of the wagon wheel leads one to expect slimmer "spokes." Although, I have to say the sturdy stretcher is begging to support one's feet while contemplating legal advice from those birds. Perhaps it represents the sturdy undercarriage of the wagon, rather than its more delicate sides? Or perhaps it is suggesting timber framing?
BTW, I took a look at some of the A&C sites you mentioned in another post, and I noticed that there was a relationship between the top overhang and the thickness of the legs. More overhang means beefier legs -- a trestle is the extreme example. Less overhang means thinner legs -- night stands and occasional tables, for example, even had slim, tapered legs. There was one exceptionally unusual low stool that looked more like a miniature butcher block: thick straight legs and no overhang. What a sturdy thing that was...
Now, I'm not an A&C fan (as you could probably tell ;-), but I do appreciate that you incorporated a curved element into the stretchers. This makes all the difference for me, anyways. I also like how the table can be appreciated at several different distances. First, its bold shape can be seen (from the event horizon ;-), then the stretchers and legs, and finally the carvings and pegs. It holds your interest as you approach it and, ultimately, caress its hand-worked surfaces.
Nicely done!
/dev
Slashman,
First, thank you for the praise but also for the critique. I agree about that stretcher - it needs to be slimmer. However, this will applied to the next one as this one is now settled in its spot and says it doesn't want to be manhandled let alone disembowelled.
The stretcher end-braces are not the only curved elements. Perhaps the fact that the other curved elements are not so noticeable suggests that another design improvement might be made (a bit more curve). These other curvers are: the breadboard ends, which are about 3/4" wider in their centres than at their ends; the rails of the end aprons, which are around 3/8" wider in their centres than at their ends. The breadboard ends also flare at their extremities, again in an effort to emulate the flare of the stretcher-ends.
****
I haven't read the David Pye book although I am tempted. I became slightly wary of such books after reading a Krenov one. Not to disagree with what he said but there seemed to be an awful lot made of what are really quite minor design matters and working methods.
But perhaps its me - I have an inbuilt resistance to guru-men and those with what I tend to see as a rather overblown romantic bent. As to the ideologists and utopians.... (best say no more). I prefer "know-alls" (as they have been dubbed by the hignorant and cynical amongst our bretheren) who state practical advice based on knowledge got via their experience and experiments.
But I will try the Pye, on your recommendation.
Lataxe, just playing really.
... I agree about that stretcher - it needs to be slimmer.
I think it is spot-on... OK, so I design as I go and use what wood I have at the time.
WillG, You mention that:
"I design as I go and use what wood I have at the time".
Ah ha! We follow exacty the same design philosophy. I get free wood, which is obviously limited and often consists of a variety of colours, grain, sizes and so forth in my collection of this or that species. Just so with that hayrake and it's oak parts.
So, although I've tried to keep some symmetry in the arrangement, the many components vary somewhat in grain and colour; but hopefuly are placed within the piece to avoid a patchwork look; and to please the eye grain-wise. This approach also occurs, to a certain degree, in respect of the sizes of hayrake components. The approximately right sizes were selected from the oak-horde, for this or that part, but there is no denying that some pieces shold perhaps have had slightly different dimensions.
Of course, the "agricultural" theme allows me to hide a multitude of such sins. When Philip spots an over-rough dovetail arrangement or Slash notices an over-thick stretcher, I may simply excuse the whole mess with "agricultural". :-)
Lataxe, random joiner of bits of wood.
Sir Lataxe..
I think I read someplace that 'you will never Plow a field by 'turning' it over in your mind' .. Or some such words.. You feed and water the OX (after YOU had breakfast and a few shots.. of Scotch) and you both go out into the hot sun and work on the field! Maybe if ya' rich' you had a hired hand to haul off the bolders that pop up to use on the new stone wall!
I think woodworking is just like you and I seeing the Ladywife the first time and we KNEW we may never change her but maybe work with what we have and maybe she will put up with us!
Just live with what your mind said at the first look! .. HAY! I can work with that!
Edited 6/3/2009 7:41 pm by WillGeorge
Lord L,
Having finally caught up and read all these entertaing posts,there really is nothing that I can say,except to add my congrats for a superb job.Agricultural an' all,it truly is,but cart-like?...as someone observed already,there's no bloody wheels mate!....an' them D-fronts could double as the rectory doors,I'll be bound.
I yam lorst in amirrashun,tinged wiv a bit a envy.
Well done, all goals achieved,I say.
Robin
Robin,
Well.... I just got a heap o' that oak and went at it with a chisel and a plane. I think all them shapes and bits musta been in there before I begun, as before long the splinters just fell away and there were some table parts!
I stuck the bits together with brown paper and vinegar, which is why its that colour. :-)
Lataxe
As our friends across the respective oceans would say... yeah,right! :-)
As FG says,
Awesome,indeed.
R
...I became slightly wary of such books after reading a Krenov one. Not to disagree with what he said but there seemed to be an awful lot made of what are really quite minor design matters and working methods.
Ah, Krenov. See, I look at Krenov's books in a different light than some do. I see the minor issues as ones of decision, whether they be conscious or subconscious decisions. These things Krenov wrote concerning "a little here, a little there," "the grain," and the like, I see as those personal choices we all make during making something. It's what separates us from blindly following a ready-made plan without regard to grain, texture, and even lightening up stretchers...
I haven't read the David Pye book although I am tempted...But perhaps its me - I have an inbuilt resistance to guru-men and those with what I tend to see as a rather overblown romantic bent. As to the ideologists and utopians...
That said concerning Krenov, I look at the two Pye books I have differently than all but the first book or two of Krenov's. With Pye (and perhaps Krenov's first two books) I am not of the opinion he thought of himself as a guru (I am not saying you did, either). Instead, I think he was (not so) simply attempting to express the things he thought about these subjects.
I also contrast the writing styles. To me, Krenov writes with less precision, less education in structure and content. Which are two things I enjoy about how his books read. With Pye, I need to think far more, perhaps reread a sentence or a section here and there as I go along. But I do not think he was trying to impress his readers with his ability to write very formally or as one who has achieved a guru status as accorded by others or in his own mind.
Sorry to read as an apologetic for either men. I do appreciate both men's books.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
With authors, their style makes such a big difference as to whether their content is easily lapped up or has to be swallowed with a grimace or even whilst holding one's nose. As with so many things, author-style is a matter of taste I suppose.
I didn't find Mr Krenov distasteful to read though; and his content is perfectly sound, even well-argued. It just seemed to me that those matters he dwells on (including those you mention) are not really great revelations or insights, as they can be found in more prosaic and technical books. To my literary taste buds, he seemed like a posh restaurant salad - well-made but described with too many long French words and dosed with too much fancy dressing, if you understand me.
David Pye sound more my cup of tea. I enjoy not just the statement of the basics (however poetically put) but those surrounding speculations, implications and other discussions that spin-off from the author's main considerations. Call me an intellectual snob, but I don't want a lecture but rather a discussion or a dialectic (author with himself). :-) So, Mr Pye's book is now in my Amazon basket awaiting only the next pension payday.
****
As to guru-men - perhaps Mr K had no such intent but he appears to have been infected by the dominant pop-culture of his time. Despite his content being eminently semsible, he pours it out in a somewhat New Age rhetoric. Nor does he seem to harbour any doubts or self-questions (but perhaps I didn't read enough of him).
Happily his content does save him as it isn't just empty post-modernist waffle. I have read (in part at least) one or three such post-modernist texts, concerning art, craft and the creative urge, that said precisely nothing but in an enormous number of words, apparenty chosen and strung together at random. So I'm wary of such books.
There are also one or three woodworking authors/practitioners who make the basic error of straying from explanation of their own work, ethos, drives and such into a condemnation of other, different styles. One is supposed to avoid speaking ill of the dead, but I found the anti-machine, anti-now rants of John Brown (the Welsh chair-maker, who wrote for various British WW magazines) as tedious and prejudiced as I found his writing about chairmaking / handtools illuminating and useful.
Then there's a certain American WW magazine writer of a not dissimilar mindset, who obscured his informative and useful messages with high-handed dissing of traditions and practices other than his own particular favourite. Happily I managed to get beyond his awful rhetoric and gratefully accepted the meaningful and useful stuff he had to say, hidden away in a wash of verbiage. :-)
Why do some lads insist on pontificating and opining concerning matters of which they themselves have zero experience? I suppose its an all too-human trait of a near universal kind. We don't like them strangers and their queer ways!
Lataxe, a literary critic.
We don't like them strangers and their queer ways!
Ha! Reminds me of the Quaker saying: The whole world is queer but me and thee; and even thee is a little queer.
All the best to you and yours.
Take care, Mike
Sire,
I am sort of surprised that you are underwhelmed by J. Krenov-have you only read one of his books. Anyway , the fellow likes cats and uses machines in conjunction with hand tools so he must be alright.
"I prefer "know-alls" (as they have been dubbed by the hignorant and cynical amongst our bretheren) who state practical advice based on knowledge got via their experience and experiments."
I also prefer them for the same reason, and remain unaffected by the odd Treacle Pour here and there- unlike our brethren.Philip Marcou
Lataxe,You asked for comments and criticism on your table and have received nothing but praise. Apparently everyone is afraid to tell the emperor that he has no clothes! Let me be the first - your table is wrong, wrong - all wrong! The wood selection, the finish, the style - everything.What are my qualifications to make these pronouncements you ask? Well actually I have no qualifications, but I am sitting here with the latest IKEA catalog and in it I can find nothing in it with non-uniform wood grain, nothing with real oak, nothing with detailed carvings, and on and on. Not a single hayrake in the entire catalog! IKEA will never choose you as a supplier and therefore your piece must be all wrong - our culture says so.JerryThe person with no taste, but still willing to stick his neck out in order to keep Lataxe from getting a big head.
Jerry,
I obviously need to mount a campaign agin' the shocking lack of hayrake tables at IKEA! What are they thinking off, not offering this essential modern style that any go-getting young family will need to deal with the rigours of modern life, such as murderous teenage sons whittling with their flick-knves and furniture-chewing bored dawgs. (No one walks them as the parents are always at work and the children are glued to a TV or gameboy).
Of course, when Mr IKEA gives me a contract to supply the items, I will need to charge a realistic price. Let's see:
Market-driven value: $5.99 ($10.49 for 2).
Value computed from making-time: $984,428,367 (my time is most precious to me).
Lataxe, somewhere in a backwater eddy of the main cultural flow.
Lataxe,Don't despair, all the time you put into that table is not lost, in spite of its non-IKEAness.What you have now is a nice sturdy base onto which you can glue sheets of Formica or other plastic laminate (perhaps something with a wood grain pattern?). That hayrake thing on the bottom will make for a nice shelf once you cover it in a rectangular fashion. Be sure to cut through those fancy joints you've created and reassemble them with some hex-headed fasteners.Good luck with your recovery efforts!Jerry - turning lemons into lemonade.
I would forget the "big-bang" Ikea approach. Simply put a few on your pick-up... set up a tent in a vacant lot on a busy corner.. place fresh home grown tomatoes.. cantaloupes.. peppers.. squash.. etc. on top of them to draw passers-by looking for fresh veggies and you have a multi-pronged business in your retirement without out-of-pocket for expensive ad agencies.
Add one of those garden benches of yourn for the old geezer's to sit and play checkers on.. or trade jack-knives and you will not only provide to the public a home-grown product in both the table and vegetables but.. you will also provide a community service which will make you the "toast" of the local old-timers in town. Word will spread far and wide.
Off to watch my tomatoes and cantaloupes grow... pretty exciting stuff at my age. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 6/8/2009 12:11 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Apparently everyone is afraid to tell the emperor that he has no clothes! VERY FUNNY! I just love it!
I would think Lataxe looks better than most IF the wind does not blow up the Kilt!
Edited 6/9/2009 10:50 am by WillGeorge
Will,
Please, don't encourage him..........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Please, don't encourage him.......... Why? Makes life fun to live in!
And I miss You and Mell these days!
Edited 6/9/2009 8:55 pm by WillGeorge
Will,
Humh, I guess our paths haven't crossed for some reason. I've been all over the place in here. Right now I'm learning a ton about finishing. Got lots of room for more too.
Haint seen Mel around much though. He must be workin a lot in the woodshop or maybe babysittin?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
or maybe babysittin?
Babysittin over for me (well everyday kind). Both girls will be in school next year.
I finally have time to go back and try to finish my two canopy beds with testers. Not sure I'll live long enough to finish them. Especially the finishing and carvings required. All the carvings will be in/on the testers. And the Names on the Head Boards.
All the basic bed parts are completed but not the carvings for the testers. Nothing fancy for the carvings. Just Names, some Angels and Dragons. As far as I can find out Chinese Dragons were not Mean.. Just grumpy at times if you did not follow older folks advice... AND they always liked little children..
Most of the bed parts are made up of laminated Sapele and Panga-Panga. Glued up boards with Titebond II. For some reason mother nature has seen the wood and my work with her trees in favor.
All has held together and very little change in the wooden structures. Only one minor split (so far.. that was.. sort of.. easily fixed. It was on the inside of a bed rail so not seen when the mattress is in place. I guess, maybe, it was there when I glued it up and did not notice it. The split was minor and I cut along it with a razor knife and found it was just a surface crack. Filled my razor cut with sort of thick plane shaving that was hand scraped to fit. That 'fitting' took hours of work. Sort of like fitting in new parts on a old RS model aeroplane that 'crashed!'. I have alot of experience fixing crashed RC models I have made... I became smarter as I aged. No RC these days...
All of the parts, or at least most of them have been sitting in my shop for a summer and winter. No AC or Heat.. All 'seems' well. This week I'll have to bring everything together and assemble what I have. The posts and rails fit well last summer and square. That supprised me a bit...
Althought all the bedpost 'seem' 'true' I still have to hand fit the head and foot boards to the tapered posts. When that 'fits', I then need to hand fit the Tester parts for each bed. I am sure some hand fitting will be required. Very hard to make 96 inch long tapered bed post in a very small shop. Well, for me it was! And I have eight of them and then trying to remember what operation I did on what leg before! NO storage space to keep thing in good order!
Anybody know why they are called 'Tester'. You know, that structure at the top of some canopy beds...
A VERY fun project for me.. So far..
I would have given up when trying to glue up the laminations for the first bed post blank. I had to make eight of them. Much less all the other parts.
I did not give up because these beds are for my China Dolls!
And you said .. Haint seen Mel around much though.
Haint ... I understood.. Are you from Pennsylvania Dutch kin'.. I 'think' I am... But not sure. My mother will never talk about her past.. Best I can find out.. She was or my father was and they ran off together and had me? She WILL talk all day about my father but nothing else about her past. I do not push it further. She is about 90 years old and tears come to her eyes as..
I understand words like that.. But I did take classes in German language when I was in the Army.. Some test I had said I would be good at it.. WRONG..and I gave up. Way to many genders to think about when talking. And I was supprised that the Army never put me on permanent KP after I said.. Please.. I have a hard enough time with Chicago Illinois English!
And I'd bet I was a Love baby.. I sort of like me as I am.. And I sure hope my Mother and Father get together in the after life and have a child with Carving skills!
Edited 6/15/2009 8:17 am by WillGeorge
Lataxe, as someone else stated above -- I'm not qualified to comment but I will.
AWESOME!!!
Thanks for sharing the pics. The details are wonderful. The table looks great in its new home. Enjoy it!
-Andy
Lataxe,
It has been far to many days away from knots, and I open it today to see your fine specimen of a table completed. Tell the missus I enjoy the view from the window, it is so green it hurts the desert eye. That is an excellent corner for a photo shoot.
I would say you have built your vision, and made your decisions. It is your design and interpretation. One can always envision a change or two, a slimmer piece here a firmer stroke there, a change of a dovetail. Two or three generations down the line, and some wear and tear will modify the piece, the edges on the handle wear, the puppy chews on a leg..... a boy drops his sissors and his sister draws on the table with marker. It will be a fine piece of furniture then and will reflect its makers care and craft.
Thanks for taking the time to post this peice David, truly and education for us all.
AZMO
PS, watch out for those shiny, carbon fibre velocipedes. They make you want to go faster and proof your worth to em!
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
M,
Well, that table was a small adventure for me and hopefully I've internalised the lessons of its experience. One day another such thing will pop out of my shed and perhaps it will have a better integration between its intended design and the outcome of my buggerin' about. Perhaps there will also be a bit of that magical improvement that somehow emerges out of the making and is additional to the envisioned design.
I have been reading that David Pye - can you tell? :-)
But enough of this woodworking stuff; the subject of carbon-fibre bike frames and what one may do whilst aboard one - this is currently the major meme-set snapping through my synapses. It's wunnerful what a bit of training by a merciless ex-marine can do for both the physical engine and the desire to stamp on it's throttle.
But my old yet still-current and "merely" sub-20 pound bike, although just as rapid and good to ride as it ever was, somehow seems less saxy than a-one o' them ones I keep reading about that weigh a tidgy 12 or 13 pounds. Many such bikes are made by them American fellows within Specialised or Cannondale, although one also casts an iye also toward the Italians of course.
Ah, the perils of modern technology allied with consumerism and the net. How is a poor lad supposed to remain content? Looka! There's another fishing email from Ribble Cycles concerning some magically light wheels with hardly a spoke in 'em! Oh the seductive rascals.
Lataxe, who is going to the gym to stimulate his endorphins and forget about gleaming carbon fibre tubular arrangements.
Tubular Bells and Carbon Fibre Widgets or how "Stomp" reached the modern age...
Ahh, training partner says it all my fren. Nothing like grinding up the miles hanging on to a wheel and putting in some wicked intervals to the town markers eh? Good for the mind that is for sure. I find my early morning rides start my day with an endorphin blast that keeps me going most of the day. It has been great riding here this spring into summer, no real heat to deal with yet, so the rides don't extract the fluids that they normally do. My poor mans Giant TCR1 (5 years old) is definately sub 18 lbs. I would love a new bike, but it is hard to justify, as this one has more potential than I. If I were to pick a new bike, it would be the Specialized Robaix(sp). Several frenz here ride them, and while light and great handling, they have some zerts that make them very easy on the old hands and wrists. So many of the new bikes are for racing, and can really beat the snot of you after 4 hours.
My days have been filled remodeling the house, framing, tile work, cabinets for the bathroom, woodfloors, cleaning and such. It has been a long 2 months of weekends. I will shoot you some pics in few weeks, just finishing some glass panels, and it will be complete!
Later Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Morgan,
I have "had snot beat from me" by that bluddy ex-marine, who delights in seeing what my actual maximum heart rate is, as opposed to the theoretical figure for a gimmer of 60 long years. So far he has got it up to 178 and I haven't died (except in a figurative sort of fashion). He assures me he has only killed four "pupils" so far and that he believes I have a 200 in me (just before I die for real perhaps).
The instruments of torture he employs (stair-steppers, stationary cycles and such) are indeed covered with snot and various other sticky body fluids that have been beat out of my 'orrible little person. (Not that kind of sticky body fluid).
Yes, I know that no one wanted to know that. :-)
I think he may have been reading "Justine" by the Marquis de Sade.
***
I will be making do with my 20 year old Giant Cadex bicycle, which is carbon fibre of the early and primitive kind (tubes are round and joined by alloy lugs). In fact, I have collected an item or two of its old Suntour Superbe technology to keep it going - the wear-parts such as blocks, chainrings, hubs and brake shoes. Hard to find! But a lot cheaper than Mr Specialized's Roubaix or that Cannondale Supersix.
Meanwhile I'm looking for'ard to them pics of your moneypit, which hopefully has stopped sucking your wallet dry now and is looking like a million dollars.
Lataxe, old body, old bike but the mind of a 15-year old.
Exceptional workmanship that produced a fine piece. I can't get my mind around a farmer having the time to do the detailed carving or to pay for it for that matter so have more to learn about agricultural furniture. I'm curious about attaching the breadboard ends as I see the plugs from the top. With the carved edge I can see why you wouldn't want to set the screws through the edge. BTW did you make the doors?
Stanley,
Concerning farmers and carving, there is a tale to tell about a family of local "statesmen"* as they were called, who farmed for centuries in the English Lake District at Townend Farm, Troutbeck - the Brownes. These lads whiled away what small free time they had by carving primitive motifs all over the riven oak furnishings of their farmhouse, including the door frames, wainscotting and so forth. It took them decades and a number of generations to progress the carving; in fact the interior remains "unfinished" as there are a number of areas remaining uncarved.
Their farmhouse is now owned by The National Trust and one may visit it for a look and a chat with the curator, who is a Browne. Unfortunately the National Trust guards images of its properties most jealously and one cannot find interior shots of the Brownes' carving on the web except on the NT paysite.
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-townend/
I have visited and can tell you that the carving is quite primitive with only token attempts to portray real life but quite a lot of abstract patterning. The oak and its many motifs are now black with age.
*****
That hayrake table copies carving motifs which in turn seem to have been copied by Gimson and The Barnsley's from unnamed rural sources within the Cotswolds. They do serve some function in that they delineate edges (I suppose). Certainly they seem to add interest to the piece, both for the eye and the hand.
****
Those doors were made by a friend who has a first & second fitting business, producing rather posh stairways, windows, doors, architraves and other built-in parts of houses. The doors were just beyond the capacity of my router table so I asked my friend to make them (on a commercial footing) as he has enormous spindle moulders and many other large WW machines. Happily, he gave me a ton of oak "offcuts" (geet big reject planks from his work) which has made, amongst other things, that hayrake table.
The stained glass in the door was made by a local fellow, Karl Percival, who works just 5 miles up the road from here. The general motif of the door-glass is derived from an ariel picture of the local fields, inclusive of the large tanks of a sanitation plant!
http://www.karlpercival.co.uk/aboutus01.html
Lataxe, supporter of local craftlads.
I have visited the Cotswolds once and loved every minute of it. At the time I was into blacksmithing ( a slight detour from my forty years of hobby woodworking) and had the pleasure of spending a morning with a third generation blacksmith. There was a lean-to on the Smithy and he told us it had been recoverd from a church demolished on orders of Henry VIIIth. We don't have that kind of history in Canada.
Thanks for the reply.
USA here.. I love Canada folks but usually just in Toranto when I went there.. working..
One motorcycle ride to Alaska that I would not be able to type this if not for some Canada folks that found me on the side of a road..
I never got their names.. My bike was fixed by them and sent on my way in riding condition! God bless Canada!
Well the feeling is reciprocated - my grad school was Purdue and we have a son living in Dallas. We're spending the winter in San Antonio - our first winter as snow birds. Last October we spent a wonderful week in Pasadena for the "Craftsman's Weekend". We've travelled in every state of the union and I worked in quite a few when consulting. We've crossed the border many times by vehicle since 9/11 with no problems even though the truck was loaded with my woodworking for family members.
We don't have that kind of history in Canada. ?? Sir, I'd bet there is all sorts of it if you look..
http://www.nfb.ca/film/rosies_of_the_north/
Please be sure to look at the above link if nothing else... I hate war but if not for Canada we would have never won WWII.. My mother was a USA Army Airforce Nurse.. I just love the above film.. Women received the same pay as men! A first I think.. AND from Canada! My father died in WWII very early in the war.. I 'think' a mechanic on a Bomber. I can find nothing about him when I asked the USA military.. Maybe a 007 spy? I THINK NOT.. Just a man lost in time with many others at that time.. And some think Women are the weaker Sex.. Very Far from that... I am just a Man that loves women...
http://www.nfb.ca/film/romance_of_transportation_canada/
http://www.nfb.ca/film/days-of-whiskey-gap/?ac=g+canadianhistory
And Canada makes all sorts of good film for children and adults.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Canada
And many other sources to be found on the net.. USA here and I often look for things about other folks history...
And never forget the .. Ice Road truckers...
http://www.history.ca/ontv/titledetails.aspx?titleid=232479
Most of my time spent in Canada was in Toronto.. I think that is still Canada? Not sure.
I remember flying to China several times, and below, for hours, were nothing but trees to see! Canada must supply at least 1/3 of this planets Oxygen!
At least I think it was Canada below! Who else has that many trees except maybe Russia?
Edited 6/16/2009 2:22 am by WillGeorge
There is a lot of history to be found in Canada. If you live in TO, what about Fort York. Travel east towards Kingston and look around in the small towns along the way you'll be tripping over it. Try going to Quebec City, make sure you have lots of time to explore, it's a gold mine about the history of Canada. Then if you ever travel west to my part of the country in British Columbia go to Victoria and spend a couple of days wandering through the BC Government Museums.
I may live here in the USA, but I'm *****proud of my Canadian Heritage and history. I can't believe you could say such a thing as Canada has no history, come on
There now I'll climb down from my soap box, I just had to get that off my chest!
Taigert
T, Shoe & Will,
Now, you are hooting at Stanley for a thing he did not say. He didn't say that Canada had no history but that it didn't have the kind of history associated with the likes of Henry VIII and his present-day effects in the Cotswolds. Let me remind you that Henry VIII was King of England between 28 June 1491 – 28 January 1547.
Documented history of events in Britain go back a lot farther than that. Stanley perhaps only referred to this more ancient lineage of events.
Now, Shoe mentions that Europeans landed in what is now Canada before 1492. Maybe they did but there is very little in the way of any history or evident effects upon that continent from such a visit. The kind of history that exists in Britain, Europe and other, even older, centres of human civilisation is documented.
After all, Canada has "history" as long as that of any other place on Earth, some 5 billion years. However, this is history writ in geology, genes and possibly in some verbal or art-based forms of pre-Europeans, not that kind of history we typically mean when we talk of historical events - contemporary human communication media of one form or another: messages from the past to the present.
Like it or not, North America has that old-world style, documentary history only from the middle of the C16th onwards as it was the Europeans who brought the associated communication tools (writing and books) .......
.......unless someone wants to remind us that Canada has earlier history and mention what it consists of. :-) One is always eager to larn that one is wrong, as this means one might become slightly more right. Thus goes education. But I digress.
Lataxe, waiting to be shown evidence of what humans did in Canada before 15-summick.
Lataxe,
We tend to forget the rich history of North America prior to the coming of the white man. My family heritage goes back to the Native American or as they are called in Canada the " First Nation". My grandmother was from the Reservation and she made sure we knew our history. She also taught us to be proud of it. Sadly the white man tried tried there very best to erase there history and culture. Children were taken from there homes and sent to the "Indian School" were they were subjected to a form of indoctrination. They were not allowed to learn there native tongue, they were forced to live the way of the white man. We look at what Hitler did in his reign of terror, but forget what happened to the people of the the First Nation.
Stanley,
If you were raised in Victoria, did you ever see the Museums that are there? Also at the University of BC there is a section dedicated to the study of the people of the First Nation on the west coast such as the Hiada Indians and the tribe my family is from The upper Thompson. My family is from Alkali Lake reservation. Later known as "Alcohol Lake" it has changed to where it is now a dry reservation, with schools and medical facilities.
I didn't mean to offend anyone, I'm just very proud of where I'm from.
I hope everyone has a great day, today, that is what I plan to do,
Taigert
I have a shop full of tools waiting for me to put them together and get organized. It should be fun they are forecasting low to mid 90's with really high humidity. So I may be putting a couple of window shakers in the new shop before I do anything else. One must be comfortable while enjoying life. What a wonderful way to spend your life working with wood, all the beautiful smells from freshly cut wood. I can't wait to make some fresh sawdust!
Yes, I watched Mungo Martin carve a pole when I was a teenager and my cousin was the adviser on construction of the walk-through model of Discovery at the Provincial Museum. Our children are fifth generation Canadian on my wife's side; my side only arrived 100 years ago. I am amazed how an intended compliment to Lataxe was seen as a negative about our beloved Canada. I'm going back to the shop to finish a pair of A&C end tables.
Not really a negative response, just a spirited conversation. It would appear that we are both very proud of our homeland.
Have a good day,
Taigert
Lataxe, Sir..
I knew what Stanely was trying to say. I was not fighting him. I was trying to show Canada has History.. Like all people on this planet do, although a bit different.
I love stained glass work. When I fixed/replaced doors on old houses I saw many on the doors and in hallway windows near the doors. I never went any further into the houses unless I was asked to do so for whatever reason by the owner. I always used extra caution removing that old glass from the doors. I was always worried I would ruin something that I could not fix!
I made one stained glass window but it was a 'kit' of pre-cut glass with all the things necessary to make it. Good fun.. I forgot all about it until your post. I tried cutting glass a few times and messed it up! Now... onto a journey to find another 'kit'.. I do not remember where I got it. Maybe i'll get lucky and find something.
Fill out your profile,so I kick U round the head for that no history in Canada remark.
Sorry Sir Lataxe for interupting the thread. your table is a work of art.
But anyone who speaks poorly of my home is at risk of being used for a boat anchor, as they have never taken the time to study our rich history. A lot of it agrian furniture out here, cause thats all they had.
Hey wart head did you know that the the first Europians to come to North America landed on Canadian soil. Yes before Mr Columbus.
To all who took offence to my remark about history in Canada. I've only travelled accross Canada by vehicle four times. My Ontario daughter lives in a house built in 1835. I was raised in Victoria, BC but my favorite Cdn city is Quebec City and we love visiting Nova Scotia. It is not that I don't appreciate the history in Canada but rather that I was enthralled by the Cotswolds. The reaction in this thread reminds me of the ranting on a recent Derek Cohen thread.
Stanley,
Yes, them mad Canooks should calm down and say sorry, perhaps via provision of a crate of good English beer. :-)
Lataxe, who also admires Canada and it's denizens despite their ice-hockey habits.
As mentioned in another thread, I did take your words in a wrong way. For that I apologize.Sir lataxe. they have found were the Norse landed on what is now Labrador/Newfounland. They found the earthen mounds and after excavation and anthopolgy stuff dated it pre 1400. Speculation is that they mated with the locals....
There are pictographes (rock paintings) in the North of Saskatchewan, that are on a river wall and how they were done was a mystery, but that was there means of record keeping.
The Dene Inuit of the Arctic left stone markers / carins Inuicshooks sic.
The Totem poles from the west coast tribes depicted history, ceremony, and there animal spirit beliefs.Time for Grog Meybe go dig for some worms and catch a walleye.Sheomaker that needs a holiday real bad and a new bench.
Not too sure that I would be able to criticize without a high power microscope. That is indeed a very nice piece. An attaboy and a pat on the back for a job well done!
Greetings Lataxe
I just discovered your Hayrake Table. Most wonderful.
I see the photos in your reply are no longer visible.
Per chance do you have them available elsewhere.
Kindest regards,
David
FYI, David, Lataxe hasn't posted here in a while. It appears he's off pursuing other interests.
Lataxe's Hayrake Table
It is to bad FWW did not or perhaps could not have profiled Lataxe's story rather than the recent effort by Michael Pechovich.
Pechovich did a great job, but it was our own Lataxe who brought this and other designs from the past to the forum and done a really first class job of reproducing and documenting the experience.
It is disappointing that his experience was not formally recorded for all.
Don
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