I am interested in making a set of veneered knife cases, as described by Steven Lash in an article from the American Society of Period Furniture Makers journal(Sept 2004), and also illustrated on the back cover of FWW (Oct 2004). In the article he makes the boxes of 1/2 inch thick pine and while he runs the grain vertically, he shows dovetails on the side grain, where each pin and tail is made of short grain. (ie. opposite the way you normally make dovetails). They look like they could crack off in an instant. It would seem stringer just to edge glue the long grain of the front and back pieces to the long grain of the side pieces with no dovetails at all, if the grain runs vertically.
There is also cross grain construction in the top, where I don’t see any accommodation for expansion and contraction of the wood, although he may have overcome this by “crossbanding” with a layer of veneer. Can someone please advise me regarding the proper construction of the core boxes. Thanks very mcuh.
Jay
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Replies
How big is this box, anyway? Silverware boxes aren't usually all that large and spend the majority of their life stored away in a drawer or closet - a fairly stable environment. Even when they're brought out (3-4 times a year?), they seldom get treated very roughly.
IMHO, worrying too much about grain direction and expansion/contraction is probably a case of "over engineering" - lol
The box is 9 inches wide and about 12 1/2 inches high, with a contoured front. If you look at the photos on the back of FWW you'll see that they are made to sit on top of a sidboard not in a drawer. They are elaborately inlaid and veneered with crotch mahogany. As to whether movement of pieces 9-12 inches wide and 1/2 inch thick will be an issue, that is the main question I am asking. Also, it's hard to believe that the correct period construction would have been with those short grain dovetails on the side of a board instead of at it's end.
Am I wrong on this?
Jay
I don't subscribe to FWW, so that picture isn't available to me. I still don't think that you should worry too much about expansion/contraction, or grain direction. There just aren't a lot of temperature swings inside a house, and even though the grain direction is "wrong", this box isn't going to take a lot of abuse.I guess that it comes down to how committed you are to duplicating a period piece. If you're really into duplication, do it like they did. If not, do it however you think is "right" and say that you did it "in the style of". - lolFWIW, I'm not convinced that those old timers were all master craftsmen who knew all there was to know about woodworking. Some of them were, certainly, but many more were just guys trying to make a living.
short grain dovetails ..
I know nothing about period furniture other that what I have read about and seen in person.
I 'think' I recall seeing many pine and other local woods, 'kitchen boxes' is how I would describe them, in old country homes. Spice and flour bins Etc. Pennsylvania Dutch? Old German craftsmen. I would think that if it broke they could make another in a few hours and never worried about all the details. I'd bet it all depended on how wide a board they had at the time to fit the project.
I have made a few items that way and none have broken. However, it may have more to do with modern glues that the joint itself?
Very early in my woodworking days i made one project that way,out of ignorance. I broke off a few pins and tails in the assembly process since the fit was a little tight and I had to tap together with a wooden mallet. Basically the whole benefit of dovetails is to increase the glue surface area on side grain. If you put the dovetails on the side grain of the board, then you are only increasing surface area for glue on end grain, which doesn't really add anything. Modern glues or old glues, it's still the same concept.
Jay
WILL NOT ARGUE with you EXCEPT mine still are fine.. Maybe nobody moved my boxes?
Glad to hear your boxes have withstood the test of time. I think if you are successful at getting the dovetails together and have not cracked them off in the assembly process, they are unlikely to break later. From what I've read and experienced over the last 25+ years doing this, it is just not considered the preferred method due to the relative fragility of the pins and tails. I'm sure one can get away with it depending on the grain structure and density of the particular wood. In very straight grained woods, when the grain lines run across the base of the tails they are more prone to crack off, whereas when the grain runs at odd angles, it may not be exactly perpendicular to the tails and so the grain is not as "short". Thanks for the comments.
Jay
I looked at the back cover pictures (which doesn't show how it's made) and see why you like it.
As much as I despise MDF, it is what I would consider making the substrate out of unless weight was an issue. In that case a high quality marine or Baltic Birch plywood. Mitered corners and glue with maybe some splines or biscuits. Then you avoid the grain movement problems altogether.
Not period construction but I'm not a purist.
Jay,
I looked at the article, and like you, I think the dovetails are just too fragile; a glued butt joint or even a rabbet would be far better. Plus, I can see the dovetails telegraphing through the veneer.
There are some cross grain issues, but the case is so small, that I don't think it is significant. If I were making them, I'd use a core of narrow strips glued together so their growth rings were in a quarter sawn configuration and then crossband the core, followed by the face veneer. This would make a very stable panel. I do this all the time, and I wish I could take credit for thinking of it, but I read it in an article by Harold Inonson.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
Since I've already resawn some pine to 1/2 inch thick, and tried to select boards with growth rings as as close to quartersawn as possible, I think I'll just crossband both surfaces with straight grained mahogany veneer and then veneer with the crotch. Since your're supposed to do the same thing to both surfaces to prevent warpage, how do you handle the issue that surely you're not going to use crotch veneer on the inside of the box, under the knife deck (where it is completely invisible)? Would crotch on the outside and a second layer of straight grained on the inside create an imbalance of some kind? Also, what technique would you use to perfectly size the innermost layer of veneer on the inside of the box cover? This layer would have to butt up against all 4 sides without a gap, since it will be visible when the box top is opened. As always I appreciate your masterful advice.
Regards,
Jay S.
Atlanta
Rob,
Another question that is related: The article show sthe boxes being consttructed first, then veneered. IT would seem to me that it would be easier to veneer the panels first,(at least with the crossbanding underlayer of veneer) then butt joint assemble them, and finally veneer with the crotch on the outer layer. What order would you recommend doing all of this? If you veneer first, I assume you would have to stop 1/2 inch short of the edges, so the joint would be core to core, not veneer to veneer. Thanks for the advice.
Jay
Jay,
I made a pair a while back (see them here:)
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Other&spgmPic=6&spgmFilters=#pic
I used quartersawn mahogany as the underlayment, both for its stability, and so I wouldn't have to stain or veneer the edges of the box around the lid opening.
I rabbetted the edges of the vertically oriented sides (or ends) and glued them to the front and back. I don't care to butt join veneered pieces, for fear that the end grain won't hold the veneer, rabbetting minimises the amount of end grain that has to be veneered without the aggravation that mitering the edges entails. Since the grain of the veneer runs more or less with the grain of the underlayment, I was veneering mahogany over mahogany, and the veneered panels are rigidly held all round, I did not veneer their insides, other than the inside of the top where it shows. (Had I used pine, I'd have veneered all the inside surfaces, cut the rabbets, and glued the boxes up, then veneered their outsides, all as quickly as possible.)
The top of the box is again quartersawn stock, crotch veneered both sides. As I recall, they were rabbetted, glued and nailed-- the veneer laid over the outside hides the rabbet joint and nails. Bottom was qtrsawn pine, a slip fit inside the opening, glued and nailed before veneering the outside.
Ray
Thanks. The rabbet idea should be easy enough. Since I am using pine, and I will need to veneer the inside, there will have to be a second layer of veneer placed on the inside after assembly. I am trying to learn what method to use to get a perfect (or as close to perfect as possible) fit inside the lid. It sounds like you didn't crossband since you said the veneer ran the same direction as the substrate, but I was planning to do an underlayer of crossbanding to restrain any movement and then the final layer on the surface. That means a total of two layers on the outside and two layers on the inside. Do you think that's unnecessary? Did you get any cracking of your surface veneer from movement? Thanks.
Jay
Jay,
"Did you get any cracking of your surface veneer from movement?"
Not initially, and I haven't heard any complaints from the owner. The boxes are relatively small, and mahogany is relatively stable.
Crossbanding is a good idea, and if you do it, will want to have it inside and out as you are planning. I'd consider doing the inside before assembly, but after the joints are cut. Veneer the inside, trim back to the rabbets, then assemble, all as quickly as possible (same day). Then get at least the crossbanding on the outside ASAP to balance things. If you pull your clamps as soon as the glue sets (after an hour or so), and handle things carefully, and have the veneers precut nearly to size, you ought to be able to do the job in a day.
Ray
Thanks. I was planning to hammer veneer with hide glue so no clamping needed, although sometimes I have put hide glued veneered panels in the vacuum bag as a "belt and suspenders" method for reducing any risk of edges peeling up etc...
Thanks again.
Jay
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