Replies

1. 
   jonsherryl | May 26, 2004 02:50am | #1

   Dave, of the two (honeylocust and Kentucky coffeetree) the coffeetree is a bit nicer cabinetwood. It has a slightly finer texture and a very attractive, ring-porous figure with dark ray flecks...But honeylocust is also a good cabinetwood. As for what tore apart that building, I'd check the rough carpenter's lunch bucket for schnapps.

   Honeylocust is a rather dense wood. It's average specific gravity is identical to that of white oak: 0.60...But it's actually a very stable wood. It's volumetric shrinkage is only 10.8%, green to ovendry...and that's lower than either cherry or walnut. It also has a very low propensity to distort in that it's T/R ratio is only 1.57:1, (R=4.2, T=6.6). For example white oak; Quercus alba, which has the same density, has a volumetric shrinkage of 16.3% and a T/R ratio of 1.87. Beech is even worse...with a volumetric shrinkage of 17.2% and a T/R ratio of 2.16, beech is notorious for its propensity to distort.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/25/2004 8:16 pm ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   DaveHeinlein | May 26, 2004 01:30pm | #3

   "As for what tore apart that building, I'd check the rough carpenter's lunch bucket for schnapps."

   Ha! you may have something there. Actually, there were several plate beams and a number of collar ties that distorted so bad that they had to be replaced before too long. They tore themselves free, 60d nails,beam spikes and all. Never seen anything like it.

   The finished boards I saw were a deep, redish-brown with grain that looked somewhere between Walnut and finer grained Oak.

1. 
   jonsherryl | May 26, 2004 03:58pm | #4

   Dave, both honeylocust and Kentucky coffeetree belong to the Acacia side of the legume family...as do koa and mesquite...many of these woods have a very attractive reddish tan color and they develop a long term patina that is similar to "mahogany"...although they are not at all closely related to genuine mahogany. 

   In fact, one of the old common names for Kentucky coffeetree is "mountain mahogany", because the wood resembles mahogany. This common name is also used for members of the genus; Cercocarpus, which are more related to the hawthorns, in the Rose family...so, it's a confusing common name...but both coffeetree and honeylocust have a vague similarity in appearance to mahogany, even though they are much denser timbers and more like koa...which, incidentally, is also sometimes called "Hawaiian mahogany".

   In colonial times, and well into the 19th century, a lot of locally produced, "frontier furniture" in the Appalachian region was made from coffeetree and honeylocust, but neither of these woods became major timber species as the commercial lumber industry developed. In a way, it's a shame they've sort of fallen out of favor. They are both very nice cabinetwoods.   

1. 
   DaveHeinlein | May 26, 2004 07:14pm | #5

   That's great info, Jon, thanks. And BTW, The Honeylocust just happen to be in bloom here this week, and man, what a sweet smell they have. You can smell them driving down the roads which run along creeks, where the most of the Locust seem to grow wild. Gotta love it.

1. 
   JsHerbel | May 27, 2004 07:57pm | #8

   That's probably black locust that you're smelling, actually.

2. 
   DaveHeinlein | May 28, 2004 12:10am | #9

   I suppose it could be,I've always been told we have Honey Locust here, but I don't know for sure. I'm in the Catskills in NY.

3. 
   jonsherryl | May 28, 2004 03:06am | #10

   Dave, you're not exactly in the heart of the original native ranges of either of these species. The northern boundry of black locust's original range begins to fade out in central Pennsylvania...and honeylocust is more widespread in the Midwest below the Great Lakes. It's original range penetrated extreme southwestern New York...But these trees are now grown well outside of their original ranges; honelocust is often used as a landsape species and farmers have been planting black locust for fence posts since frontier times.

4. 
   DaveHeinlein | May 28, 2004 01:35pm | #11

   Aha. Well, these trees have small white flowers, very aromatic. They thrive near the creeks, and shed a lot of branches. The sprouts have thorns, and grow very rapidly. The heartwood is green like pressure treated wood(I like to call it nature's PT).

   I'm guessing that describes both Black and Honey Locust, right?

5. 
   Dale | May 28, 2004 04:20pm | #12

   Green wood = Black Locust, I hear bees love it.  I'm not sure why the other locust is called HONEY locust....Dale

6. 
   DaveHeinlein | May 29, 2004 12:40am | #15

   Funny you should mention the bees. In one of the huge Locust on the front lawn of the 'ole homested, one of the trees had honey bees in it. I still remember like it was yesterday, during the hot part of the day, the hole in the tree(1-1/4-1/2") would be ringed by bees standing around it fanning their wings. I can only imagine that was for ventilation.

7. 
   LeeEschen | May 30, 2004 09:34am | #20

   Dave Heinlein wrote: <<.... during the hot part of the day, the hole in the tree(1-1/4-1/2") would be ringed by bees standing around it fanning their wings. I can only imagine that was for ventilation.>>

   That's exactly what it was for.

   Dave, are you by any chance related to Robert Heinlein, the noted scifi author? My particular favorite is _Starship_Troopers_, the book, not the horrible movie of the same name?

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;

   Gateway to the Oregon Caves

8. 
   DaveHeinlein | May 30, 2004 03:13pm | #21

   <Dave, are you by any chance related to Robert Heinlein, the noted scifi author?>

   You know, I don't really think so, but there always is the possibilty. The name is not all that comon. My oldest brother is named Robert, but he most definetly is not an author. :^}

9. 
   jonsherryl | May 28, 2004 05:21pm | #13

   Dave, I'd agree with Dale that it sounds more like black locust. Check the leaves. All of these species have compound leaves, where the leaflets extend off the stem in feather-like pairs, something like ash. Honeylocust and also Kentucky coffeetree differ in that the leaves are typically twice compounded (bipinnate). In other words, the entire leaf that falls off the tree in the fall consists of a central stem with multiple, feather-like stemlets. Coffeetree differs from honeylocust in that its seed pods are much broader, but shorter than those of honeylocust and the seeds are substantially larger...

   All things considered though, it sounds like you probably have black locust. It's wood is blonder than that of honeylocust, with a gray or greenish yellow cast. Also, if you can cut off a branch that is beginnig to develop a little heartwood, the heartwood  would be a noticeably pinkish tan in honeylocust, but not in black locust. 

   Edited 5/30/2004 9:22 am ET by Jon Arno

10. 
    DaveHeinlein | May 29, 2004 12:42am | #16

    Sounds right to me, I know the leaves are very small, and compounded as you described, but I couldn't say about the double compound. I'll have to check it out. Thanks, guys.

2. 
   RonInOttawa | May 26, 2004 09:45pm | #6

   Jon--

   What are the similarities between honey locust (Fabaceae Gleditsia Triacanthos) and black locust ( Robinia pseudoacacia )? I have an old school friend back in West Virginia who has set aside several old chestnut beams and several planks of 6-8" wide 6/4 black locust which he claims is "mostly flat".

   Although I now live in Ottawa, I make at least one or two trips back to the "Old Country" each year. I definitely plan to bring back the chestnut on my next trip, but I'm still up in the air about the black locust. All we ever used it for when I was a kid growing up there was for fence posts, which may have given me an unjustified prejudice against the wood. I hated digging holes, planting posts and stretching wire!

   Regards,

   Ron

1. 
   jonsherryl | May 27, 2004 03:25am | #7

   Ron, honeylocust and black locust are related, in that they both belong to that Acacia side of the Legume family I mentioned earlier...but they are less alike than are honeylocust and Kentucky coffeetree. Black locust is considerably denser, less ring-porous and it has a grayish yellow color, as opposed to the warm, pinkish tan of the other two. All of these timbers have at least moderately good decay resistance, but black locust would be the best for fence posts. It's exceptionally decay resistant.

   Personally, I think the other two are the better cabinet woods. Black locust is just too hard to work. Except in situations where an extremely strong wood is required, black locust is too tough to mess with, especially if the project will require using hand tools. In colonial times, it was used for making trunnels The wooden pegs used in post & beam construction, both because of its strength and decay resistance and also because it is quite stable and would hold fast as the timbers shrank around it.

   As for the chestnut, you definitely want to latch on to all of that you can get.

3. 
   dlwheel | May 29, 2004 12:12am | #14

   Jon,

   I've got a huge Kentucky Coffeebean tree that will be coming down next year. In preparation we took down a large limb which I resawed into 4/4 and dried. I didn't have a schedule and may have exceeded the SDR, but quite a bit of it has checked. In working the wood I find the grain which is very prominent wants to raise. The wood has a golden color.

   When i take the tree down i plan on using a more conservative drying schedule and hope for better quality. Nothing about the wood i've seen reminds me of mahogany, though.

   -David

   
1. 
   Sphere | May 29, 2004 12:51am | #17

   Whoa there David..could you please Irfanview that pic. down to 640x480 for us neanderthals on dial up? and the resolution needs a tweak as well..thanks. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

2. 
   jonsherryl | May 29, 2004 05:46am | #18

   David, stock cut from branches won't give you an accurate impression of what the wood from the main trunk is going to be like...especially when it comes to shrinkage characteristics. Branch stock is always loaded with reaction wood, which is abnormal wood tissue created by the tree to compensate for the effects of gravity on the horizontally oriented branches and the way branches change their direction of growth as the tree struggles to array its foliage to capture maximum sunlight.

   Reaction wood experiences very high longitudinal shrinkage that not only causes distortion (warping, cupping and twisting), but also leads to severe checking...and these checks even occur perpendicular to the grain (across the face of the board). Reaction wood doesn't finish well either, in that it typically fuzzes up when sanded and it absorbs stains unevenly. Coffeetree lumber cut from the vertical trunk has excellent stability and all of the other problems associated with excessive amounts of reaction wood also virtually disappear. It's really a very nice cabinetwood.

   As for its traditional association with mahogany...leading to the common name "mountain mahogany", I think the features that evoke this image are its dark ray flecks that somewhat mimic those in genuine mahogany...and also its natural pinkish to "amber tan" color. Anatomically, it is actually a much denser and more ring-porous wood than is mahogany.

   This species can be air dried without much difficulty and I think you're going to be very pleased with what you get out of that tree.

3. 
   mudman | May 30, 2004 06:57am | #19

   Jon,

     How in the world do you know so much about wood. Are you a ..... treologist? I guess it would be aborologist. Very impressive.

   Mike

4. 
   jonsherryl | May 30, 2004 03:52pm | #22

   Mike, nobody knows it all when it comes to woodworking and wood technology...and that definitely includes me. I learn something every day here on Knots...But as for what I do know, I think it's mostly the result of extreme age and having had a multitude of opportunities to make virtually every mistake possible...at least once. 

5. 
   mudman | May 31, 2004 06:58am | #23

   LOL, If you really are "extremely aged" then kudos for finding the net as a resourse. My grandpa is also very knowlageable about home building. But he has no real interest in the net. Like you he could be a great resourse to us newcomers.

   Thanks again,

   Mike

2. 
   Dale | May 26, 2004 04:56am | #2

   Dave,

   Do you know if the beam was cut from the center of the tree?  Lumber that has the pith, the heart as some folks call it, will do all kinds of squirrelie (sp) things..Dale