Ray,
I want to become an Expert.
What should I do?
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Did you ever hear the description of an expert that goes:
An expert is a has-been drip under pressure.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
I don't care about being a drip under pressure.
I want the adulation of being an expert, like you have. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I want to become an Expert.
What should I do?
Go back to school and study this time instead of watching the girls?
WG,
I studied when I went to school, but I enjoyed watching the girls too.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I could tell you exactly what to do first, Mel, but it would not be as funny as Will George's suggestion.
More importantly: why is my name attached to the title?
Ah Mook !!!!WG is a true philosopher. Now that I am retired, I had been thinking about going back to school. But I find school to be very limiting. I find that teachers hold me back. I find I can usually learn to do things myself better than I can from a teacher. That is not true of everything. Psychomotor skills sometimes can be better learned by watching a demo first. However in woodworking, the only psychomotor skill that doesn't have a DVD is "how to make in-fill planes in your home shop in a weekend". Have you thought about making a set of DVDs on making infill planes? It is possible you could make more by teaching than by doing. Certainly many woodworkers have gone from being woodworkers to being teachers and writers because the money is greater and more constant. Think about doing a world tour. Do a one week course in each city that you stop at. Max students = six at a time. Course tuition = $1500 (US). EXCEPT that you will need to use a shop to teach in. The person who let's you use his shop for the course, gets the course for free. You asked why I used your name on this thread. Well, the name of the thread for years has been "Jointer plane question? Lie Nielsen". Then someone started a new thread called "Jointer plane question? Lee Valley" Did you notice the difference? So I figured that I would join in the fun, and start another one called "Jointer plane question - Marcou" The first thread, for 99% of its life had nothing to do with Lie Nielsen. The second did not even mention Lee Valley. So there is no reason in the world that this thread should have anything to do with you. I think that people put too much importance on names -- especially here on Knots. I hope you don't mind. Using your name was a positive thing, not a negative one. Think of it as "more advertising". If you really want some advertising out of it, let's see if we can keep it around for five years and get it up to 6000 posts like we did the Lie Nielsen thread. I sure hope you didn't take offense. If you did,I'll change it to "Jointer Plane Question? - Clark and Williams", or Jointer plane question? - Holtey. In time, we will probably use all of those names. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bob,My son just send me a website with one of the funniest computer articles I have ever seen. It is a hilarious history of programming languages. If you are interested in 15 minutes of laughter, read http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.htmlMelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Now that I am retired, I had been thinking about going back to school. But I find school to be very limiting.
I did find school limiting as a child growing up... I went back to school when I got 'downsized' from my job of about 35 years..
Local collage and I got straight 'A' and on the Deans list! OK, so one B+ grade on Math.. I was never good at it anyway.
I had ALOT of fun with the youngers' that made fun of me being there in class! I always came to class with my Calculator! I Sure wish they were allowed when I was in High School!
And you said.. I find that teachers hold me back. I find I can usually learn to do things myself better than I can from a teacher.
I AGREE until you have a good teacher.. My wife, my children, and the older and new China Dolls I babysit these days taught me everything I need to know about life.
AND my old Ancient History teacher.. She was so old I knew she knew her stuff.. She was there and lived it! I loved her like a mom...
And you said.. I enjoy teaching. I have taught Psychology at Penn State and mathematics at the University of Connecticut. I even taught preschool for a few weeks. That was eye-opening. Those kids are really smart, and they know how to control teachers. They gang up on you. :-)
They get to you! My littlest China Doll does it to me all the time.. She makes up rules I have to follow when I play her made up games!
Edited 5/9/2009 8:16 am by WillGeorge
Edited 5/9/2009 8:24 am by WillGeorge
WG,
You taught psychology at Penn State?? When?? I was a student there from 1970 through 1974.
You had a side shift Harley?? I had the frame of a side shift Harley for a project (back in 1973 or so). Needless to say, as far as I got was getting the frame. Gathered a lot of dust and IIRC my dad "disposed" of it, along with a motorized bicycle I picked up. I wanted the compression relief valve off it to rig onto a Suziki enduro I also had.
Today, I only have my 1999 Softail remaining in the garage (along with the soap box derby car I put together for my nine year old). Haven't been on my old Harley in several years now. Bought it new and it wasn't quite fast enough, so I went through damn near as much money "making it better" as I did when I bought it. Now it's just great for getting from here to the end of the block a couple of seconds faster than what it could when new.
T.Z.
I got my side shifter Harley from WWII surplus as I recall.
You taught psychology at Penn State?? When?? I was a student there from 1970 through 1974.
I never did that.. I thought the WORDS I posted to Mel. I think HE did that?
Tony,
I wrote a message and WillGeorge copied my sentence. I did teach Psych 101 at Penn State in 1969, the year before you arrived. Sorry I missed you there.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Damn Mel,
If I would have been in your Psych 101 course with you, the rest of the class would have had one heck of a "case study". What I do remember was that my teacher, fairly young and of the female persuation, requested a private meeting with me. The raging hormones of a barely out of his teens male imagined all kinds of fantasies, but not a single one of them was a major butt chewing of why I was not doing certain assignments.
Didn't do much woodworking then, but an awful lot of wrench turning. Had rebuilt one motorcycle engine and with a close friend, several small block Chevy engines.
Fast forward to my eldest daughter's education at Penn State, in the artsy architectural program. They had much model building, and PSU had an very well equipped woodworking shop, with top of the line equipment, such as Powermatic saws, etc. (can't remember any Lie-Neilsen or Marcous). I visited several times, and was impressed that all the students weren't missing any thumbs! I complimented the instructor on that! My oldest daughter is very comfortable around woodworking & the tools. Incidentally, the two of us watched our Pittsburgh Penquins put the skates to your Washington Caps (don't know if you're a hockey fan Mel) last night. Hopefully we'll have a repeat tonight!
T.Z.
Tony,
Would have loved to have had you as a student in my Psych 101 class. We could have rewritten the book! :-)The way your daughter got into woodworking at Penn State was quite interesting. Glad to hear she is at home with the tools. About the hockey playoffs, you haven't got a chance. The Caps have a lock on it. I am not a "real" hockey fan (eg I don't have a hockey shirt), but this series is worth paying attention to. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Best series of the play-offs. Guess I could be called a hockey fan--got more than several shirts, plus I'm a Pens season ticket holder.
Funny when my oldest was in college, my dad was still alive. He constantly lectured Jen on power tool safety. He never said anything about safety to me! Questioned him about it and he said a girl will never get a husband with fingers missing.
T.Z.
Tony,
I like your Dad. He had wisdom.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The Caps have a lock on it.
I beg to differ. They blew that game last night (I watch every hockey game!) However, my Blackhawks did take a 3-games-to-2 lead against the cheating Canucks, who can't seem to hear the whistle blowing at the stoppage of play. What ticks me off is how many punches to the face my guys have to take in order to finally get a danged penalty called.
I put a call into Quenneville offering my face and fists for free. But, so far, he hasn't returned the call.
Jeff sitting on the couch with skates on...putting on the foil, and waiting for the call.
PS I'm rooting for the Caps in this series. Ovechkin is the best player in the game right now, and a joy to watch. It's hard to remember watching a professional athlete making millions that ever was as enthusiastic for something a teammate did as for his own personal accomplishments. Something the NBA, NFL, and MLB could learn from....
Edited 5/10/2009 12:28 pm ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,
I agree, watching Ovetchkin is as exciting as getting messages from you, Ray, Tony Z, WillGeorge, Philip, Lataxe and the rest of my Knots buddies.GO CAPS!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jeff,
The Wings are going to win the Cup yet again
Neil
If you think so. They are older now, though, and perhaps incapable of keeping up with the younger, faster teams......such as my Blackhawks. The games need to be played, so we shall see.
Nothing would please me more as a lifelong Blackhawks fan than to get to the Stanley Cup Finals at the expense of your Red Wings. If I were writing a script, that's how it would go......we'll see.
Good luck against Anaheim. I feel as though that series hasn't been decided yet, but I hope you guys win.
Jeff
Well, if we traded Chelios back to your Hawks the average age of the Wings would go down considerably...but hey, we've learned to love the guy!
Neil
" I am not a "real" hockey fan (eg I don't have a hockey shirt)"I don't know about you, but we call 'em "jerseys".Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
You call them "Jerseys".I thought Jerseys are cows.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
First of all this is DAVCEFAI writing not his ladywife. Taunton's computers have screwed up bigtime.Your description of your daughter's course reminds me of when, about 4 years ago, I was in the Biochem Lab at Malta University. There were a number of little machines, maybe 1 cubic foot in all, scattered around the lab.I hadn't a clue as to what they were, so I asked. The Prof looked at me strangely and said "DNA sequencers."Flashback to 1974, Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. The DNA sequencer occupied a lab, had to be booked weeks before and needed 24/7 attendance while it took days to run a sequence.Haven't times changed!davcefai helping to bump up the thread count.
Edited 5/10/2009 2:50 am ET by MaryCefai
Mel,
A return to school may well answer your original question, especially if I were the teacher/instructor: you would be told to Remain silent, Pay attention, Record and Learn.
Meanwhile you may leave the thread title as it is, so that followers may doff their caps and submit one Shilling each time they visit-all proceeds towards my world tour 2010.Philip Marcou
Edited 5/10/2009 6:17 am by philip
Philip,
That's the attitude. Get the T-shirts printed up for the Marcou 2010 World Tour. This could be the biggest thing in woodwork since the ball and claw foot was invented! After the MWT (Marcou World Tour), people like Bird, Cosman, Duginski, Hilton, Schwartz, Charlesworth, Pine and all of the other Big Names will look to you as their LEADER. Tom Lie Nielsen and Rob Lee will look to you for endorsements. FWW will want you on its cover even more than Norm. I can see it now, a new school of woodworking - the Marcouvian School. And all because of this thread. Glad to help.MelPS by the way, how is your variable pitch, self sharpening Jack plane coming along? Also, I like your idea for a jointer with a "pull down" fence, and convertible sides that will allow it to also be used as a large rabbet plane, as well as on the shooting board. Also, don't forget, you need to develop a nice adjustable angle panel-raiser with pull-down fence to allow Samson to make the style of panels that he prefers. Another idea that I have had on new planes is one that automatically adjusts the depth of cut based on how much pressure you apply as you use it. If you need to take off a little more on the right for one pass, you just press harder on the right side, which lowers the iron a tad on the right side. This will make jointing a much faster and more intuitive process.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
>And all because of this thread.<It seems you are not inclined to observe the "Remain silent" rule. (was never much good at it my self; especially when the instructor began to show his ineptitude to teach the basics or embrace current advances).Now what is this sharpening you speak of. "Self sharpening" I believe was the term. I thought they came sharp.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
"remaining silent" on Knots is like a "square circle". It is a contradiction of terms. :-) Interesting though, we don't seem to solve many woodworking issues once and for all. Why don't we try to resolve one issue each year in a FINALIZED way. What one do you want to start with. Like "Tails first" or Pins first." Naw. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I've used that has-been drip under pressure line for years, but it's already been taken this time. Drat.
My dictionary say something about, "Taught by practice, use or experience."
So, to your question of, "what should I do?" I suggest, "keep doing it."
There's a popular book out now that I keep hearing about, which says that with 10,000 hours of practice, you can master any skill. (It only took me 9,678 hours of riding to master the Indian's foot clutch and hand shift so that I could hand signal for a turn, double clutch, goose the throttle, down-shift, use the front and rear brakes and oh yeah, actually turn.) I always heard that practice makes perfect, but then someone I respect pointed out that it is only perfect practice that makes perfect. That is, if you practice using bad habits, you will have perfectly poor execution. Then I was told that practice makes permanent (as in muscle memory). That goes right along with the idea that you want to practice good posture, stance, and efficiency. Who wants to be an expert in poor judgement, for instance? Or grinding gears, just before you run off the road? Or bad marksmanship? Or sawing off the line?
Ray
with 10,000 hours of practice, you can master any skill.
And a new parent has just one day to learn how to keep a baby happy!
And the rest of their life keeping up with them!
By the way, I had a old Harley side shifter... WWII vintage?
Edited 5/9/2009 8:33 am by WillGeorge
Ray,
A certain melicious poster has had 100,000 hours of practice at posting to Knots but still fails to master two-way comms, although he is good with the bullhorn and also the dronehorn. Incidentally I have only spent half an hour posting here myself, since 1893, and am already an undisputed master of the Anglish languididge, as everyone knows who has read my dribbles (I mean exemplary essays).
Now, just to underline the point about Mule getting it wrong as usual, I will mention a certain Marcou battleship of a jack plane that is hopefully even now safely ensconced in an aircraft hold, flying to Galgate from Kiwistan. The hold is otherwise empty and the aeroplane is having to stay below 3000 feet, because of the weight; nevertheless delivery is surely imminent. Only 13,000 litres of high grade aircraft fuel have been burnt to deliver the item, so the postage charge was quite reasonable.
I would issue a test report on the qualities of this hivvy dooty Marcou but fear that Joe MelCarthy might arrange a "hearing" (i.e. a not-hearing) for me in respect of imaginary advertising fees. Leading questions would be put, such as, "When did you stop beating your ladywife" and "Are you or have you ever been a puppet of The Evil Planemakers' Cabal which includes Lee Valley, Philp Marcou, C&W, K Holtey and all other planemakers not on the approved-by-Joe list". (Notice the absence of a ? as these are not really questions).
****
Finally, I must point out that despite 150,000 hours practice trying to win the Tour de France (or even getting into a team; or noticed by the scouts) I have failed utterly. So, I fear that book you mention is best sent to the charty shop where it can languish next to Plato's "Republic" and the Ayn Rand novels.
Lataxe, Marcou herder
Lataxe,Here is your plane fully loaded with your plane. It is plain that your plane may be capable of having little planes.
And that's the plain of it.BB
Boil,
I think they used an Airbus Beluga for the job. Read all about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guppy_Aircraft.Philip Marcou
Philip,That would fit your BJP (Battleship Jack Plane) all right, but it looks like its going to have octuplets. Maybe a new plane--Octoplane for doing those heavy coopered jobs.Boiler
Lataxe, old chum,
I fear you have mis-applied your efforts-- spending all those hours trying to win the T de Fr, in which all you have mastered is the skill of ...trying to win; you ought to have been spending those hours in practicing actually winning the dam race instead. Aaauggghhh, as Charlie Brown would say.
Hope this helps;-)
Ray
Ray,
Why couldn't you have said earlier: "...spending all those hours trying to win the T de Fr, in which all you have mastered is the skill of ...trying to win; you ought to have been spending those hours in practicing actually winning the dam race instead.
Doh!
Lataxe, who has taken your advice and applied it to the process concerning "obtaining excellent planes" so actually got one today, rather than just thinking about an order to the metalworking magician of Kiwistan.
PS The Marcou J15A is not just a work of engineering art but Functionally Superbe! I believe That Man has reached the nadir of his plane-making skill. A report will be made in due course.
Lataxe,
"I believe That Man has reached the nadir of his plane-making skill. "
Oh, dear. So sorry to hear that. I hope you also have got an example from when his skills were at their zenith.
Ray
edit: Of course, he is from down under, so nadir in the antipodes is..?
I'm so confused...
Edited 5/11/2009 8:48 pm ET by joinerswork
Ray,
Ah ha - I see I must be careful with them words. I was using "nadir" in the sense of "being above and looking directly down from" whilst you are thinking of "being low in spirits" perhaps? However, I will bow to your "zenith", although we cannot assume that Mr Marcou has no more wondrous engineering to find within hisself, to where he will ascend by making an even better plane than this one:
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
This J15A is a bevel-up beast of some 15 inches and (I would guess) 5Kg. The bed angle is 15 degrees and it takes a standard Veritas BU blade, which is very convenient.
The engineering, as always, results in a flawless performance. This particular plane looks as though Philip has decided to put in maximum gleam as well as that superbe functionality, as all parts are not only a perfect fit but also sport a mirror-like surface.
The adjuster has zero (I mean not one part of one degree) play in its turning. The cap iron just goes under its retaining bar then slides free until locked with the equally precise knurled screw. The blade can be adjusted for cant with great precision by the mechanism and also has Veritas-style blade-positioning grub screws at the sharper end.
Philip has also sharpened the blade properly in this one. Previous blades have been sharp but not finally honed. This one is honed and cambered so that when I took it out of the box and applied it to a piece of beech, super-wisps could be taken (they fall to bits when picked up) and then the plane adjusted in seconds to take thicker cuts. No tracks because of the camber; easy to make the shaving thicker one side than the other.
The straight edge confirms a dead-flat sole, which is the necessary condition to get those super-wisps.
****
Now, the plane is a jack and meant for all trades. It may be requird to take super-wisps now and then, if used in smoothing mode; but it's weight and length also make it the ideal instrument for heavy-duty planing. This will be it's major role in my shed, along with a bit of edge-jointing of shorter parts, where the 22 inches of the Veritas jointer plane is not needed.
It and the S15A smoother will be the two planes ready-to-hand on the bench whilst others lie in the drawers beneath awaiting a more specialist role.
So, surely I have enough planes now......? :-)
Lataxe, just plane lucky.
PS Well, you must excuse my gloat - I jes cin't help mysen!
Lataxe,
Christmas in May? Is the jack a new addition to the Marcou line, or is this plane built especially for you?
-Jerry
Jerry,
I'm not sure Philip has "lines" so much as plane-models that he has made once or more times; and which he may either reproduce or evolve into another model.
So, I believe that you could have any plane pictured on his website made for you; but you might also persuade the lad to experiment and perhaps produce a plane to your specification.
That jack plane is, to all intents and purposes, a "stretched" S15A smoother. I asked Philip some time ago if he would make a try or even a jointer plane but his metalworking gubbins limited him in plane length. He is now able to make a 15 inch jack (and I believe another Knots poster is awaiting, or may even have, a J20A) so perhaps a try plane (18") might eventually emerge from the Marcou Works....?
Philip also made me a set of mini-planes, for box-making and other small work. I believe he has got an order for more and has also been experimenting on scaling up some of the minis into midi-models.
One hopes the lad is reading here and may offer us some tales concerning his current plane-making efforts, not to mention future plans.
Lataxe
Lataxe my friend,
That is an incredible feat of NZ engineering if may say so. That other chap who is awaiting the J20A must be on pins and needles........
What is the tote and knob wood species you have chosen? Looks beautiful.
I am now fully convinced that the only difference between a Marcou and a Holtey is $7800 US
Take care,
Lee
Lee,
Yes, lads all over the wodworking world will scratching out "Holtey" on their shiney objects and overwriting "Marcou", as they would otherwise be feeling bereft in the "look at my gleamer" hierarchy. As to the LNs and even the LVs - they will all be tossed in the bin now as lads rush out to post their Marcou order. :-)
Philip informs me that the knob und tote are "Muwanga which is an Afromosia type from Zimbabwe". If I'd had to guess I would have said that they were made from a nice piece of particularly dense and fine-grained iroko. But Zimbabwe is full of strange timbers that we may only dream about, as humans aren't welcome there at the minute.
Now, don't get too anxious about that J20A. Some naughty fellow might see that it is still in the hands of the engineer and make him an offer he can't refuse!
Lataxe, gloating unattractively.
Sir L old chap
I must confess to having spied your jack plane early on in a scribble from NZ. It passed muster in them piktures.
No doubt the doubters will question whether it produces Real Jack Shavings (a certain personage did urge me on a while back now to demonstrate just how this is done with a BU Jack). Perhaps you will comment for those in the cheaper seats how the blade is ground.
Well played at any rate.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/13/2009 6:12 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
The Marcou S/J15As and 20As are configured to take a standard Veritas blade such as that fitting their own BU smoothing, jack and jointer planes. Those Veritas blades now come, as you know, with their backs machine-lapped to a precise flatness and with a one of three bevel angles, as listed at the bottom of this page:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=49708&cat=1,41182,52515
The blade in the Marcou J15A is of the 25 degree bevel-angle variety and has (from a guess-look) a one degree microbevel on it. This is about 1/16" wide at the centre and 3/32" at the corners, due to the camber that has been put in by Mr Marcou. I believe he cambers using a bit of "lean" to both sides as he runs the blade over the stones within an Eclipse honing guide. (I like the Veritas Mkll with the barrel roller meself).
The camber is, I would say, a smoothing plane camber, as it takes full-width shavings that are maybe 3-5 thou-ish thick in the centre fading to nothing at the edges.
So, the current blade has a cutting angle of 41 degrees (15 bed + 26 bevel). It performs wonderfully on straight-grained wood or with-the-grain or on end grain. It won't do for naughty wood though; or even run-of-the-mill wood with the odd bit of rising grain or knot in it.
In the past I have bought one each of the Veritas 38 degree and the 50 degree bevel blades. These work well with naughty grain but they are more difficult to profile at the edge, as you know. The easiest way to avoid plane tracks is just to round the corners. As shavings from such high angle blades tend to be taken ultra-thin, rounded corners are a reasonable substitute for a blade camber (they suit me at least).
I should, instead, have bought two more 25 degree bevel blades and put steep micro-bevels on them to get the higher cutting angles, as I have since read about, perhaps on your very own website. This would no doubt enable a blade camber to be applied more easily......?
However, there are now 4 planes within the herd having a Veritas blade in. They all came with a 25 degree bevel blade so there are plenty to play with in respect of different cambers and micro-bevel angles.
For example, the new Marcou jack might well enjoy having one of these blades with a slighty steeper microbevel (to give a standard 45 degree cutting angle) and a more pronounced camber (not scrub-curved but greater than smoother-curved). Then it could take out bigger scoops and be used to rapidly reduce planks to size.
Mind, I don't care for the full-scrub approach on bigplank (I must be a wimp) as Mr Scheppach's planer/thicknesser stands ready to deal with them. But a "light scrub" of smaller pieces is often a quicker way to reduce a rough-surfaced and too-big plank-ette so it will fit somewhere in a piece.
****
Tut, I have rambled about blades in a boring fashion. I blame you for encouraging me. :-)
Lataxe
Tut, I have rambled about blades in a boring fashion. I blame you for encouraging me. :-)
Fear not, Sir L, there is only one here who may take umbrage at this discussion of planes - one who introduced this thread (therefore must countenace this content), and in any event discusses tools more than 10 other forum members put together - even though it is to berate the discusion of said tools ..(there, you see how I carefully and successfully managed to disguise and avoid posting Mel's name).
I am sure that there are many here interested in the workings of this Marcou Jack. It did strike me that your shavings were not very thick. However, you have since pointed out that your boards are generally fresh off a jointer/thicknesser (the UK/Oz terminology). I do wonder what you could do with it if the blades were prepared to emulate a jack rather than a smoother?
Philip didn't say, but I had the impression (probably wishful thinking) that the blades were narrower that the standard Veritas' 2 1/4". A 1 3/4" - 2" blade would be great as a foreplane. I understand that the blade here is 2 1/4", and therefore it really needs a fair wack of camber to remove waste efficiently. Of course, if it was to be used as a Jack. I am not sure what you are called it ... a pre-smoother? :)
On a 15 degree bed I personally would likely use a 30 degree primary bevel, hollow ground so that I could camber it on the hollow and have a 45 degree cutting angle. However I would aim for a much greater camber than you have ... but that is for me, not for you ... although I would still recommend a 30 degree secondary bevel for less tearout.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/14/2009 5:07 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
I will ramble on more now, even though there is risk that the thread becomes a mere dialogue.
All these plane terminologies and taxonomies seem confused to me, a plane novice. Or is it that there is too much hard-and-fast assumption made about the "proper" role of this or that plane, when in fact planes may be configured and/or used for all sorts of tasks as they don't care about what their "proper" usage is supposed to be.
The jack plane seems to illustrate this perfectly, as it can surely become a jack of all trades. In fact, one wonders if that's how it came by it's name. A BU version is particularly verstile because of that easy blade-swap, with no need to make secondary bevels, mess with a chip-breaker or shove frogs about when changing blades or arranging other configurations for this task or that.
Also, I have not really understood the scrub. I know it's meant to hog-off waste in order to obtain a square, flat, evenly-thick plank from a typical rough wonker-plank straight out of the timber yard. However, does it need to be so small? In fact, is it's short length and width not somewhat innimical to getting square, flat planks out of them wonkers? After all, it will be inclined to follow hollows and cups; perhaps even make some new ones of it's own....? But I have no exprience of the things, so this is a guess.
A jack, being longer and wider, would surely be more likely to reduce a wonker-plank to it's required neat state, because it's length will tend to make it do the job of try-plane as well as scrub. It's width might also prevent a certain degree of cup-following. Such a scrubbing jack might need a big camber in the blade, to avoid having to apply huge forces that would be needed to take a 2.25" wide, thick chip; but would that be a problem - to make and load a special jack scrubbing blade into a BU jack?
Shove in a differently-cambered or bevelled blade and that jack can be a smoother or jointer too. It can also be used for shooting - long or end grain - with the appropriate blade. Huzzah the jack!
***
In short, the jack size seems very versatile. Even though it is jack of all trades, it may even be quite masterful at some of them. Why, I just need to stick on a nicker and a fence and it may well become....well, perhaps not. :-)
*****
As to the bevel angle: that 26 degree blade deals with nice hardwood (tested on oak, beech, iroko so far) with no obvious rapid degradation of the edge. At the combined cutting angle of 15 + 26 (41) it does do very well on end grain, too.
However, there are other identical blades about the shed, which vary only in the mcro-bevel angles at the cutting edge. They are all around 30 - 35 degrees (45 - 50 cutting angle in an S15A or J15A Marcou; 42 - 47 in the Vertias BU jointer plane) although I do think I may try to put a very steep micro-bevel on one to see how it compares to a similar Veritas blade in which the whole bevel is steeper.
Lataxe, rambling eratically around the planing field.
Lataxe,
If I may butt in here with a little lore that I've gathered here and there about those planes used for prepping stock:
According to Moxon (I think) who wrote his how-to in the late 1600's-- The fore plane and the jack plane are essentially the same tool. We're talking wooden bodied planes here. The fore plane, so called because it is used before any of the others, was what cabinetmakers called it. Carpenters used the same tool, but to them it was a jack plane. 14- 16" long, open throat, curved or cambered edge to the iron 2" or so wide, so it can be set rank. This is the English type; what is nowadays called a scrub plane, the 8" long, narrow ironed 1 1/2" or so little plane with the "horn" on its front end (wood bodied again) is the Euro type, called by Salaman in his Dictionary a "Bismarck" for its German origins. Two different forms from two different cultures, and both adapted and modified by Stanley and others in their metal bodied counterparts, using the same names for what end up being quite different tools.
Ray
Ray
Good summary.
Interesting that our "novice" Sir L suggests a longer plane for hogging. I agree. I have a couple of scrub planes, mainly the Stanley #40 and the LV. Both work well but the LV is significantly better owing to its thicker blade, longer length and greater heft. On hardwoods this becomes significant.
Actually I prefer using my Stanley #5 1/2 with a 5" radius. This is not as radical as the LV with its 3" radius, but its a good compromise. The extra heft of the #5 1/2 (over the LV) aids in powering through our local hardwoods, where a light and short scrub (such as the #40) requires more physical force and is more likey to ride the peaks than remove them.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 5/14/2009 9:43 am ET by derekcohen
Lataxe,"Huzzah the jack!"
It is my "go to" plane for a quite varied amount of tasks.
Most recently, set up as a semi-smoother, to size long ebony rods to exact dimensions, prior to fitting as tripoli polished joint pegs. The jack has enough fore to stabilized for flatness and enough length to run the shaft evenly. My 4.5 is too heavy and short fronted for it and the blocks and #1 too unstable/short for true running - not even in the ball park. This is a job where a shooting board would have been of poor service as would a custom flat jig, both being unwieldy for a 25/64" square peg. With the pre-scribed ebony in a vise, it was "Bobs your uncle" in three swipes. 10 minutes for all.
Nine 12" rods, Starrett flat and square, glass smooth, no chatter, perfectly sized with minimum fuss. "Huzzah the jack!"Boiler
Kind of off-topic here, boiler (if there was a topic), but my experience is that ebony is pretty easy to plane. Is that yours? Same as dogwood, another hard, dense, self-polishing wood. Just curious what you thought. I bought a "grab bag" of ebony a few years ago from Woodcraft and have collected a few other pieces over the years. It seems like it makes a mell of hess when turning or sanding but planes easily and easier to clean up that way.Now I want to quickly get out of the way before being run over by the "interlocking, swirling, reversing ironwood devil-grain" smoothplaneologists."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,It's a hard wood, heavy and very messy. VERY. I think it's oils tend to make the shavings stick to everything. But...I find it is very easy to plane and takes an incredible polish. I take mine up from glassy plane stage to 600 grit then to 1000 and then polish with a brown Tripoli on a buffing wheel. I've often wondered how high I could go - maybe with a plastic rouge. Never tried.
Depending on the ebony source it will glow black or very rich chocolate brown. Doesn't pay to mix ebonies when doing accents - the different woods scream "I'm different""Now I want to quickly get out of the way before being run over by the "interlocking, swirling, reversing ironwood devil-grain" smoothplaneologists."Me too. BB
BB,
Send details of where one may obtain interlocking, swirling, reversing ironwood devil-grain as this is the stuff that causes special hormones to rise up, followed by a trip to the shed in order to play with one's instrument! Even at the thought of such stuff, I feel a certain heat come over my regions.
Lataxe, a disgusting little smoothplaneist fellow.
PS I have a chunk of ebony that contains black, various browns, creams and pinks. It is a bit shakey here and there but one day I may actually apply a tool to it, to see what handles or knobs may be buried in there. Also, it will be an excuse to buy sandpaper of extraordinary fine grit, such as that you allude to. Perhaps even a Very Expensive Rasp of grade 15.
Latex,
I have a piece of Texas ebony (Ebenopsis ebano — not a true ebony) that has seriously interlocked grain. I have come to the conclusion that it is unplaneable. Using a Veritas BU with 50° blade (62° cutting angle!), half of it shines, and half of it shreds. I turn the piece around, and the roles are reversed.
Even a cabinet scraper produces a surface that might be described as being covered with "micro tearout."
-Steve
I put that piece in a yard sale years ago. I wondered what happened to it!
Lataxe,Just a little side note and perhaps it belongs in cafe but I have been given to understand that your MPs are having trouble with keeping their moats clean. At 40,000 pounds a year per MP,I believe I could help them with that problem and then I could afford a few Marcous!BB
BB,
Them greedy men.......
Well, even I who nivver listens to or reads "news" (propaganda wars of competing power elites and circus-men) have caught rumours of the naughty claims made by the politicians concerning various doodwats and luxuries. Ha! Is anyone surprised that small folk, who should have been 3rd rate hairdressers or even estate agents, have sought power, got it by despicable means and now abuse it?
But never mind a few pound notes grubbed after here and there. What about their other nefarious deeds of much worse ilk, concerning foreign folk who are exploited to deeth; or even just dealt the deeth in short order? Then there are the policies that have turned vast swathes of the population into mindless consumer-producer rats, including the "failures" who form an ever-increasing underclass......
I huddles in the shed, concentrating on nice pieces of wood and such, trying not to ponder the ugly doings of power-addicts down in that London.
Lataxe, a cipher in the Not-So-Great Society.
Sometimes it is better to just hunker down.
BB
Lataxe,The sandpaper is just automotive "wet or dry" paper. I often use it in rub outs. The 600, not the 1000.Watch your MPs!Boiler
boil,
both you and lataxe extoll the attributes of the jack plane as, among other uses, a shooting plane. that's nice to hear. i spent many hours last winter tuning a jack plane, a smoother, a 91/2 block and a wooden scrub. i made a shooting board for truing 221/2 deg. miters. i could not get a proper "shot", so to speak, inspite of following the numerous suggestions of others. i am left wondering if i should focus on maybe a thicker blade for the jack plane and give it another go.
eef
Two jacks are fitted with thick Clifton blades and the third with a hock. All three are ground for different uses. Three is a lot of jacks but I just feel better with them. Just can't seem to pick all three up before that red rubber ball hits the ground :)Boiler
boiler,
and you shoot with...
eef
Eef,What else? a Jack :)
or cats eyes as shooters for all the marbles:)
A 17 round Jericho (baby eagle), milled and throated Colt Commander and of course a 1911. From a former life.
Also use an old miter plane, an LN 4.5 Smoother and a reeeely sharp low angle block on tiny end grain stuff. I may have to get one of those newfangled BU jacks though. I think in about 10 years, they should have all the bugs worked out. (that ought to get someone going)For what it's worth for those who have need, I just resurrected an old X-acto mini backsaw from my old "plank on frame" days and it works better (for me) than my cope, jeweler's, and Dozuki saws. Nice straight and square miniature cuts.
like I said, for what it's worth.BB
"For what it's worth for those who have need, I just resurrected an old X-acto mini backsaw from my old "plank on frame" days and it works better (for me) than my cope, jeweler's, and Dozuki saws. Nice straight and square miniature cuts. "
Eef,
I just found one in my shop from way too many years back. The little devil cuts like a charm! What have I been missing?
-Jerry
PS: You wouldn't want to part with the 1911 now, would you???
Edit: OOPS!! Addressed to wrong shooter.... Sorry.
Edited 5/14/2009 8:46 pm ET by nazard
The model 1911? No, I think its just comfy in my nightstand. I'll ask it, but I think it's happy where it's at. But thanks for the thought:)BB
Derek,
"there is only one here who may take umbrage at this discussion of planes - one who introduced this thread ". Hate to disappoint you, but no umbrage taken here. I read widely about woodworking. One can learn more quickly and more enjoyably by finding out what others have learned. I search for a variety of views, especially those that are not close to mine. I always liked the way Piaget put it: assimilation and accomodation. It is what life is all about. Getting new info, and building it into the current set, which means that some old ideas get thrown out, others get modified, and others stick around. Most of all, I enjoy the woodworking, but I do enjoy learning more about tools, techniques, skills, attitudes, cultures, and beliefs. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,
My dictionary says:
nadir 1) That point of the celestial sphere directly under the point where one stands, and directly opposite ot the zenith; the inferior pole of the horizon. 2) The lowest point; time of greatest depression; as, the nadir of his fortunes.
Could it be that like clamps and cramps, spanners and wrenches, fags and cigs,you are speaking in that common language that separates us?
I am in complete understanding however, of your need to show off those whispey shavings. They are just what the woodworking world needs to see, viz: a superior form of packing material to that coarse, nasty excelsior, previously available to us.
Ray, trampling his inferior shavings underfoot in envy
Ray,
You always answer my questins in the way they were asked, and sometimes even more usefully. I will go forth and practice some more, which I do every day. The glider is coming along. I called the guy who owns the company that makes the plans, and asked him some questions. He took the opportunity to tell me about two errors in the plans, and he told me what a number of marking mean on the plan that were unexplained. I believe this will make things easier. At least I hope so. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>Practice something over and over 10,000 hours etc.<Mel and Ray,Have you come across a psych guy by the name of William Glasser MD ? Wrote a book called Positive Addiction.He talks about various activities that people get "addicted" to. Bat swinging, the wooden kind not the rats with wings kind, golf etc.He says (rough quote): " Find something to do and do it as if your life and sanity depend on it, because they do ".I feel fortunate to be addicted to woodworking. For a while there I thought I was addicted to buying woodworking tools but that has flattened out and I can just enjoy the work now.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/9/2009 9:35 pm by roc
Roc,
I don't know much about William Glasser. I did some reading. Sounds like he is a rebellious psychogist, who is less into drugs and putting names on behavioural problems than on looking for more real world problems. He started out in Clinical Psychology, but got an MD and got into Psychiatry. THAT was a great move. A psychiatrist has a lot more tools to work with than a clinical psychologist. Sounds like Glasser was willing to think for himself rather than just go with the "current wisdom of the time." THat is another way of saying that he would not have done well on Knots. :-)I am going to read up on Dr Glasser. Sounds like he is worth learning more about. So about reality therapy and getting addicted to woodworking. Sounds good to me. I definitely am addicted to woodworking and am quite happy about it. Glad you got over your addiction to woodworking tools. Use tools, but don't be used/ruled/overwhelmed by them. They are there for you, not the other way around. YOu have plenty of time to collect tools when you are too feeble to use them. If you keep bicycling, you can put that off as long as possible. BACK TO THE SHOP!!!!!!
Have fun. Keep on truckin'
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
roc,
You know what I like about not having a kazillion tools - trying to figure how I can make what tools I have work for me. One of my greatest pleasures in woodworking.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ray,
I want to become an Expert.
What should I do?
Mel
I would say carve me a simple picture of this..
I was hoping fer free but I can spend 50$ US if it is a cool! one.. I will pay shiping..
Hey WG,
Great dragon pic! I just stopped up from the shop for a minute. I just got the top section of the rocker put together. It was more difficult than I imagined but it is together. Now I start the bottom part, which is a glider mechanism. That will cause a few more grey hairs. I don't really want to become an "expert". I was just having some fun. Ray answered as I expected he would. The Hand Tool group has been quite easygoing lately. Not much interesting popping up, so I thought I'd get one of these conversational threads going and see if it lasts. It does provide a way for folks to have a little fun which is not about serious woodworking. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled