Hi All: Are the honing devices for touching up jointer knifes worth it? I think my blades are getting a bit dulled, I have cleaned them and don’t see any nicks but they don’t seem as sharp as when new. Woodcraft has a diamond hone which can be used with water or dry so would save cleaning off any oil used with a stone hone(oil would get on boards?), sounds good to me.
Thanks, Duke
Kenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Replies
In my opinion, no. I have 5 sets of knives and when the last set is installed, I send the first 4 out to be resharpened. MVP Sharpeners in Cypress TX does mail order and I highly recommend them.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Mike: In that case how much of a job is it to swap out and set up the knifes? I've never done it but I know sooner or later I will have to. Is one of the many jigs made for this task useful or necessary? Which is the most ''user friendly''? How about carbide blades are they worth the extra expense? Sorry for all the questions but I try to gather as much info as I can before messing with any of my machines.
DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Duke, get thee the following book:
Care and Repair of Shop Machinesby John WhiteTaunton PressISBN 1-56158-424-X
Well worth the $19.95 list price.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Duke,
IMHO, the honing stones are "dulling" stones and the quickest way to de-rate the performance of a good set of knives.
Changing 4 knives on a 8" jointer, takes me the best part of 10 minutes.
Carbide is not an option, as it is too brittle and chips easily.
For advice on a jig, what make and size jointer do you have?
Willie: I have a DJ 20, about three years into it as a hobbyist. I like the idea of having an extra set of blades, you say no to carbide what company puts out the best H.S.S. blades in your opinion? Amana has them and I trust and use their products or would you go with factory originals?
Thanks, KDM
Kenneth Duke MastersThe Bill of Rights December 15 1791NRA Endowment MemberLEAA Life MemberCRPA Member
Edited 9/28/2005 1:44 pm ET by dukeone
Duke,
I don't have access to a DJ 20, to see how much opening between the cutter head and the tables. For a jig, the safest suggestion would be two dial gauges with two angle, magnetic holders. Flat tip on the dial gauges.
Knives come from many sources, but I would expect Amana to be better than factory knives.
Dukeone,
I hate to disagree, but I have had a set of carbide blades on my DJ20 for about 3 years and they are neither brittle nor chipped. They stay very sharp for me, and I use this machine every day. I got sick and tired of changing jointer blades all the time. I would recommend them without hesitation.
>>>>Carbide is not an option, as it is too brittle and chips easily<<<<
Gee, I guess then I need to throw away all my router bits??
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Willie,
You say that for you carbide is not an option as it is too brittle and chips easily.
What make of carbide blades do you have? I suspect that you may have had something inferior.
In 1994 I got a set of Leitz carbide knives for my machine. The price was terrifying, but it was the best move I ever made. Two years later I had reason to go to Germany,so decided to take the knives with me and sent them back to the factory-they were not chipped and still serviceably sharp-that factory even said there was no real reason to re-grind-so they merely restored that amazing mirror finish-free.
I often hear it said that carbide does not get truly sharp-it is a myth, stemming from the days of old when the type of carbide was such that it did not get sharp.Those knives were shaving sharp.
Now get this-since 1996 I used those blades continuously until I came to N.Z, and then I got them sharpened here-8 years later! I have been using mainly Iroko and Makore-both abrasive, and Iroko sometimes has those calcite deposits.
The only maintenance I do is the occasional touch up with a hand held diamond plate-more for cleaning them than anything else-carbide can be attacked by some wood deposits.
As with most things , there are different grades and qualities. I think you are missing out on this boon by condemning carbide in general.
Philip Marcou
Philip,
I drive past a few Almond orchards to work every day and sometimes pick up nice logs. The lumber is hard and heavy and real rough on jointer knives. The end product is worth it though, as the wood is real pretty. Anyway, this is where I tried carbide and they nicked, probably an unfair test.
I custom grind jointer knives though, with different angles and back bevels, to get a final wood finish with no hand work afterwards. So carbide is not an option for me, and playing with knives is part of the fun.
Willie
PS: You can see a almond wood job here, nesting tables
Edited 9/28/2005 7:36 pm ET by Willie
Edited 9/28/2005 7:38 pm ET by Willie
Willie, can't fault your playing with knives;)
So what back bevel angle do you favour on your thicknesser?
I just leave my Leitz thicknesser knives as they are, but I do a very slight back bevel angle on my surfacer knives which are Leitz again, but high speed steel-I don't even grind it-just do it by hand. In fact that is the way I hone them when they are in the machine. I'm not unhappy with the result.
Is the almond timber actually containing silica/abrasive stuff, or are you "including" it when you prepare your timber? ;)Philip Marcou
Philip,
I have only done this on my jointer.
One day I'll try the planer.
I normally put a 3 degree back bevel on some of my knives. I do this on a surface grinder in the shop at work, using a tilt table.
I have four sets, for Pine, Walnut, Figured Cherry, and Hard Maple or higly figured woods. I would have to go and look at my notes as to the angles, but they come from a book "Charles Schmidt" or something.
Not sure if it's silica, but Almond is extremely hard and heavy, although it machines well. Carbide tipped blade on the table saw and bandsaw is no problem, but all you need on HSS, is around 20 passes and they are dull, with small nicks.
Willie,
Assuming your hss knives are good quality, 20 passes is veryvery poor performance. That would mean I would be changing knives about five times a day, instead of once in five years .... When I ran Spear & Jackson hss yellow backed knives on my machine I would re-grind every two months or so, plus regular honing in between-so you can see why I am keen on Leitz carbide knives.Keep it in mind when you get bored with knife changing.
I wish I had two sets each for thicknesser and surfacer.Philip Marcou
Hi, Philip,
Where did you get your knives from - they sound excellent quality.
Ozzy
Ozzy; I called Lietz and they said they don't sell the ones for my Delta DJ20 directly they sell them to Delta: of course Delta said they don't sell them. So where to buy Lietz blades?
KDMKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Ken,as far as I know, Leitz do not make knives for specific machines. They make different sizes i.e length, width and thickness. You need to measure what fits your machine, and then match it with the specs from Leitz-that's what I did for my Dominion-a British old iron .
Philip Marcou
Edited 9/29/2005 8:58 pm ET by philip
Dukeone,
I wish I knew, mate. I am going to try the number Philip gave me here in England. I can ask if they have contacts in the States for you (I assume that's where you are - let me know, will you?).
Stay in touch,
Ozzy
Ken,
I have just called the number that Philip gave us, and they tried hard to be helpful, but not quite helpful enough. They were unable to help at all getting a contact for you, and they seemed unable to find a reference to my machine either.
I guess it's back to the drawing board, mate.
Take care and stay in touch,
Ozzy
Ozzy: Just got a second note from Lietz:
I'm sorry Ken, I must have missed the "carbide" part in your original email. I believe I can get them. Please email me the dimensions if your knives. i.e.. length, width, thickness
Tom
Tom Schoenhofen
Inside Sales Representative
Leitz Tooling Systems, Inc.
Toll Free (800) 253-6070 X3065
Fax (800) 752-9391
[email protected]
I am including the whole note just incase the info can be useful to anyone else. DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Ken, as it happens I have just read your post before having to do some travelling-if you stand by I can get you the Leitz part number for those knives-they call them HM,=hardmetal (carbide), but most important is the mirror polish, which is not done for "ordinary" carbide. Should be able to get the ref number tonight.Philip Marcou
Ken , those knives are listed under the reference TM 100-0 (999) of their one inch thick catalogue.Philip Marcou
Phillip: Thanks for the help! DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Thanks for that, Ken.
When I spoke to Leitz here in the UK yesterday, they quoted me the dimensions of two knives that are assigned to DeWalt machines, but neither of them sounded like mine. A little more digging is probably in order!
Take care, mate, and stay in touch.
Ozzy
Ozzy: Have you noticed Phillip's posts? He has a catalog from Lietz and has looked up my Delta jointer blade # maybe he can help you. I have an e-mail contact at Lietz but it is in the U.S.: [email protected] Hope that helps.
DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Thanks, Ken. I'm on the case!
Ozzy
Ozzy, I got those knives from Leitz germany , courtesy of a German Embassy customer at the time in Zimbabwe.
I have no Email address in this catalogue, but you can contact them in the U.K on telefax(0279)454509 or telex818769 or phone (0279)454530-I suggest you phone them for a catalogue.
To quote from the catalogue:- "T.C.T knives receive a fine mirror finsh, on both the face and the back,due to a specially ground tungsten carbide insert. The cutting edge is therefore extremely sharp with very little surface roughness, and thid results in improved performance times and planing quality. Application:for highly abrasive exotic hardwoods."
As I said , the price was ballistic , but well worth it in the long run.
Philip Marcou
Thanks, Philip. I will check out the availability for my machine.
Stay in touch,
Ozzy
Just as a note , I agree with you on carbide. It is great for cutter heads saw blades, router bits ....etc but for planer blades, my experience is as yours hss.
Also as a note all of the professional and industrial outfits here use disposable hss blades, either Esta or Tersa.
The high level industrial also use diamond tip cutter heads and bits but they require a certification and guaranty from the pannel suppliers that the pannels contain no foreign material. break it and pay policy.
But on a hobby level lots of things can distroy carbide especially if you use rough sawn wood.Last week I destroyed a 31.5 cm carbide saw blade on a chunk of something metallic in cherry from ex-Yugoslavia. War remains.
Philip
Hey Duke,
This page shows a jig I made to sharpen and hone my jointer blades.
http://www.superwoodworks.com/Projects/JKnifeJig.htm
It is fool proof, fast and works great.
Garry
http://www.superwoodworks.com
It takes more time, but yes I do use 80 grit to take out nicks and for straighting a badly ground edge
Garry
http://www.superwoodworks.com
Hi, Dukeone,
I have just read the responses you had from your initial question, and I would give you my experience.
I have a machine called a 'planer-thicknesser' here in the UK, it has 10" knives, and serves both as a planer (jointer?), when the outfeed table is pulled up, it becomes a thicknesser.
I have a set of TCT knives, and 2 sets of HSS, and while I don't get the life from them as Phillip does his Leitz knives, they stay sharp for significantly longer than their HSS cousins. Actually, I have chipped them (I think they are probably irretrievable), attempting tp plane a foreign body in the timber, but that was my own stupid fault.
Replacing. I have to set aside a couple of hours. The knives are held in place with wedge-shaped blocks, containing height adjusting screws. The height is set by using a small block of wood (about 3" by 3/4" by 3/8"), with two parallel lines, 1/8" apart drawn on the side about 1" from one end. Using only the outfeed table, you set up the block so that one line is in line with the edge of the table, and rotate by hand the cutter block, with the knife literally picking up the block, and placing it down again as it rotates away. The idea is to get it adjusted so that it comes down with the second line in parallel with the table. I hope that makes sense. What it isn't is easy. Every time I get the knife set correctly, it re-adjusts itself when I tighten it up and check it. Probably something to do with backlash. It's a nightmare. That's why I like to use TCT knives - don't need to change them as often!
Good luck and take care,
Ozzy
Ozzy: Thanks for the detailed reply. I am not looking forward to this task but it must be done; I am trying to learn proper technique for lumber preparation and building furniture from those boards. One thing for sure, to me, is that you can't skip any steps, they are all important if you want clean, well fitting joints and smooth flat surfaces. Sometimes I wonder if I have not bit off more than I can handle. I have never tried to do things just so-so, always aim high. I am not in good physical shape and can only spend, at most, two hours a day in the shop and since I am learning from books, magazines and Knots it is a long, long climb. But I want to learn the craft and art so onward and upward!!!!!!!! On the main subject I am looking into a set of carbide blades, waiting for a e-mail from Leitz or I might get a set from Amana.
Thanks again, DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Dukeone,
You are most welcome, mate. Sorry to hear about your health problems, though. What sort of things do you make? How about some pictures?
Take care, and stay in touch,
Ozzy
Ozzy: I've made three tables, one window and am working on a ''cold frame'' out of western red cedar with some copper cladding where it will contact the soil. If it comes out decent I'll take some pictures. Started woodworking about three years ago, although made a wooden toy for my son about 25 years ago but nothing in-between then and now. Duke, in Berkeley California USA
Kenneth Duke MastersThe Bill of Rights December 15 1791NRA Endowment MemberLEAA Life MemberCRPA Member
Edited 9/30/2005 9:03 am ET by dukeone
Thanks for that, Ken.
I made several windows myself, because I could make them for a lot less money than buying them, and I could use a fungal-resistant cill (I think it was Luan). In this house, the windows are vertical sliding sash type, and I think I am going to have to replace some. In particular, there is a large-ish three sided bay window, which is definitely suffering, and I don't have any experience building those. At this point I am studying books - I will let you know how I get on.
Good luck with the cold-frame. (Western red cedar is difficult to get hold of here, and very expensive).
Ozzy
Ozzy, I commiserate with you on the business of changing knives-what machine do you have?
You may like to see threads 23463.1, 23463.19 and others there to see what I did about it.Philip Marcou
I have 3 sets of Wisconsin Knife Works HSS blades for my planer. I have had these sets for 20 years and they are absolutely great. I have hogged some pretty mean rough hardwood with them over the years. With what I do now, I get about 1 year out of each set before sharpening (mostly planing Cocobolo). Wish that brand was what I had for my jointer.
http://www.wkwinc.com/
They do have solid carbide knives. About $150 for a set of 3 six inchers.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike, the last thing anyone should want is solid carbide knives. What may be wanted is Carbide Tipped knives.Philip Marcou
Philip,
It's an ELU. I've probably had it for about 10 years or so. It's OK, if a bit small (10"), but the fence is garbage, and causes me constant grief. I can't remember the model, but it's the DeWalt 733S in a different paint job.
Cheers,
Ozzy
A hah, yes, Elu-now they used to make a superior router, the MOF 96 and the MOF 177, both with electronic control.Then they became Dewalturised,and turned yellow.
I have both of those Elus, and as far as i can see Dewalt have not altered much except for the colour-but without a thorough inspection I cannot be sure.
Pity Elu had to put their name to that combination machine you have....Philip Marcou
Philip,
Thats right. I have a DW625 (the old 177), and here at the college they have a couple of them, each about 6 years old. They don't get a huge amount of use, but we had to replace one - the speed control packed up, and then the bearings went. I had to replace the bearings on the 621 after a very small amount of use.
I havent phoned Leitz yet, but thanks for the number - I definitely will.
Take care, and stay in touch.
Ozzy
Ken, the straight-edge method that Ozzy has described for setting knives is highly accurate-to within a 1/2 thou or so. It helps to use a very heavy smooth timber,and have something suitable to tap the knife down.*
It also helps even more if your machine has the means to RAISE the knife when you have tapped it down justtoofar.
That is the sort of thing that infuriates me with some machine manufacturers-e.g by providing jack screws on a surfacer or thicknesser head, much time and frustration could be saved-they would sell more machines as well. Inca did/do it why can't they all?
* I have yet to see one of those jigs some manufacturers provide with their machine for knife setting be anything near accurate-especially for long knives.Philip Marcou
Ozzy,
What is your planner / thicknesser? I am looking for one of these and am having real trouble setting my entry price point. Cohices seem to be between the Chinese made stuff at $800-900 or the Metabo / Schepach level at $2400, although I might get one of the latter 2nd hand. I have heard some problems with the feed systems on the cheaper tools and that the replacement knives for the up-market tools might be a bit pricey. This doesnt seem to be a tool used often in the US.
My alternative is to continue to pay for machining - which I am happy to do for wide stuff but I want to be able to prep thin material for boxes and fiddle the thickness of furiture components.
Thanks in advance
David
Hi, David - pleased to meet you.
I have an Elu, I bought it about 10 or 11 years ago. The Elu name disappeared shortly afterwards, and it became a DeWalt DW733S. It's a 10inch capacity model, with 2 knives in the cutter block.
I have put a lot of timber through the machine, although nothing like as much as one in a professional workshop. Generally, I like the machine, and it gives me reasonable quality, but it does have some weak points.
Firstly the height - I am 6 feet 2 inches, and it is a bit low for me, gives me backache when I use it for long periods.
The knives are a bugger to set for height (you have probably read my earlier 'knots' missive).
The fence is poor. Try as I may, I cannot seem to get planed edges square to the face side.
Without doubt, there are plenty of machines out there that will knock mine into a cocked hat, and if I had the space and the 3 phase power, I would go for something made of cast iron, and probably more than 40 years old. But I am where I am, I only have single phase power (I use a converter for my 3 phase tablesaw, but frankly it is not great), and the Elu takes up a relatively small footprint. I suppose the question to ask is, if I were without one, would I chose this model again - and I probably would.
Come back to me if you want more info.
Take care, and stay in touch.
Ozzy
Duke I got a little stone from Woodcraft or Rocklers...
Hunk of stone and some wood.. Works for me.. Well. for SMALL nicks
I run it across the blades gefor and after,, But I'm a Nut about many things!
EDIT:: gefor and after.... Just 'traders Englich Thinks you will understand...
Edited 9/30/2005 6:00 pm by WillGeorge
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