Hi,
Just wondering.. if
Shoulder planes adjust rabbets, dados, half-laps, bridle joints, tenon cheeks and any other work where one surface must be square to another. Then why would you need a router plane and rabbit (rebate) plane in your tool collection?
What size shoulder plane is best? 1/2″ or 3/4″. Some people say the Medium shoulder plane is best.
Wanda
Replies
Hi Wanda
A rabate plane has a fence and a router plane cleans the bottom of a dado.Otherwise just cos it's fun to collect them
First, "best" is relative. It depends upon what you are doing.
In a similar vein, each plane you mention is optimized for certain operations. While there is overlap, they are not equal in their given applications. Think of it like this: you can pound a nail with a brick, but a hammer is better.
Oh, and a shoulder plane cannot do what a router plane does. Similarly, trying to cut a rabbet on an 8 foot stick with a shoulder plane rather than say with a 78 or a 10, is akin to pounding a nail with a monkey wrench - it can be done, but....
". Then why would you need a router plane and rabbit (rebate) plane in your tool collection?"
Neither a rebate nor a shoulder plane can do what a router plane can.
Have a look at a #10 then a #92 or 93 then a #71 router plane and you will see....
Shoulder planes adjust rabbets, dados, half-laps, bridle joints, tenon cheeks and any other work where one surface must be square to another. Then why would you need a router plane and rabbit (rebate) plane in your tool collection?
Hi Wanda
You need to look closer at what is actually done, rather than at the general idea. For example, a shoulder plane can adjust a dado, but it cannot adjust a dado that is narrower than its own width. So a 3/4" wide (Medium) shoulder plane is limited to this width. A router plane is able to use different blade widths.
Similarly, a shoulder plane can indeed adjust a rabbet - but this is a plane that excels in fine detail, so it takes fine shavings. A Rebate plane has a wider mouth and will remove the waste in a fraction of the time.
It is all horses for courses. That said, in my opinion, a router plane is one of the most useful - and under utilized - planes in the workshop. I have an article on this topic in the latest Australian Wood Review magazine.
Have a look at this review I wrote on the LV router plane - it contains a tutorial on how a router plane is used ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Router%20Plane.html
What size shoulder plane is best? 1/2" or 3/4". Some people say the Medium shoulder plane is best.
I know most love the Medium size (3/4"). It is an excellent compromise size. The 1/2" is really too small for most things, and I would not recommend it to a novice. It has a small registration area, which makes it harder to control. I have the LV Medium and think it a great plane. However, since I work in very hard wood, I prefer a heavier plane, and so turn first to a large infill (1 1/4" wide). Still, that Medium gets used frequently.
Keep in mind that a shoulder plane is for shoulders, not for faces of tenons. It is too narrow to register easily for faces. If you want a shoulder plane for both, her a Large. Otherwise just get the Medium and use other strategies on the tenon faces (router plane, rabbet block plane, skew block plane, rasp, joinery float, or file).
Which shoulder plane is best? You have a choice from LV, LN, HNT Gordon, and Stanley (I wouldn't recommend the #92).
They will all work well, but you will struggle to find someone who has used all. I have a comparison of all but the LN (it was not available). However I have used and like the LN, but only briefly, so I cannot say how well it compares. The following will give you some idea of what to look for when you manage to get your hands on a couple to try out.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Medium%20Shoulder%20Plane.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
Wouldn't it be great If I could go out and buy all those joinery planes!
Now that I have decided what bench plane to add to my collection. (still waiting for it to arrive) I have turned my attention to joinery planes. I've read a lot of positive articles by Christopher Schwartz on LV joinery planes.
First time I ever saw the router plane in use was on one of the Wood Whisperer podcasts. It was featured in Popular Woodworking magazine. After reading your article I am more convinced than ever that buying a router plane would be a good investment.
Some people say that the wouldn't be without a block plane in their collection. I know it all depends on the type of work you do.. but wouldn't you be better off buying a screw block plane? if you couldn't afford both.
Would you consider a rabbit plane (rebate plane) a must have tool? good for widening dadoes and removing a lot of material in a hurry.
One more concerning joinery planes. ... I thought a plough plane was good for cutting grooves for drawer bottoms. Pretty sure they use those for stopped dadoes as well.
For basic furniture construction which joinery planes would you absolutely be without?
I think I'd move the shoulder plane down on my list of must have joinery tools after reading your article.
Perhaps you can tell me a few more uses for the scewed block plane, plough plane and rabbit plane.
I've learned a lot reading your reviews. Thanks for the links.
Wanda
Wanda
Wanda - With respect to Mr. Schwarz (who posted a video about making stopped grooves with a plough plane), a router plane serves this function very well.
In Chris' video, he drills a hole at the beginning and end of the stopped groove, then uses a plow to hog out the waste in between, then advises that a router plane would be necessary to flatten out the beginning and end of the groove, which now have a slope because the plow's front skate won't allow it to go all the way to the end.
In my case, I prefer a router plane with a fence. While true that you have to adjust the depth down after every pass, a modern router plane with an adjustment nut makes this really easy (I'll admit that it would be a pain the arse to do the same thing with a wooden version where the depth is controlled by the wedge).
I have not seen Christopher's video, but the following is what happens when you attempt to create a stopped rebate with a plough plane ..
First, the boards to join ..
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Thuis is what needs to be removed ..
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Sawing and then chiseling out the ends .. then using the plough plane. What you can see below is a gradual arc at the plough is limited by a depth of cut. You can turn it around and plane back into the waste....
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... but this requires setting up the fence on the other side of the plough plane, which may not be possible. Instead use a router plane ...
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This is the stopped rebate ..
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And the final result ..
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek - What you've photographed is almost precisely what Crhis Schwarz demonstrated in his video. I find it a bother and a PITA to do both the plow and the router, so I just use the router with the fence. The fence keeps the router in the appropriate place in the groove without me having to think about it, and there's not as much danger of blowing out the end grain with the front skate of the plow on a cut like you've pictured.
My attitude, I think, would change markedly if the groove or rabbet I was trying to cut exceeded the width of my largest blade for the router plane, but since I typically use this method on the inside of stiles on frame-and-panel doors, it hasn't yet happened.
dk,
I'm assuming you are stopping the groove on the stiles of your door frames. Most if not all, the old work I've seen has been grooved through, and uses the haunch of the rails' tenons to fill the stiles' groove. Any particular reason for your not doing the same? Cosmetics? Just curious.
Ray
Edit: And, in the case that Derek illustrated, I believe I'd just hold that last pin/tail in from the edge of the case to get away from the rabbet, plough the rabbets through on both pieces, then trim the rabbet's shoulder back on the pin piece so the shoulder on the tail piece can simply abut it as the joint is assembled. Alternatively, trimming the tail piece's shoulder back, allows the pin piece's shoulder to pass by.It was done this way on period case pieces all the time.
With a little thought, there are very few instances where the additional labor of forming a stopped rabbet or groove is truly necessary for neat work.
Edited 10/15/2008 8:32 am ET by joinerswork
You've a point - a haunched tenon on the door rail is definitely easier to do with hand tools than a stopped groove on the stiles. Oddly enough, though, a fair number of the colonial antiques I've been lucky enough to examine closely didn't use the haunched tenon approach - they had stopped grooves on the stiles.
I'm not sure why this is the case. Perhaps the situation at the time was the the craftsman couldn't afford a plow plane and he made grooves with a tenon marking gauge and a chisel. I've used this method before and it does work - but man o man is it laborious. However, if that was the case it makes sense why the grooves would be stopped, because it doesn't take any extra labor to make them that way, and there's less precision fitting on the tenon for the rails.
That said, though, I'm just speculating, as I've never had the chance to see one of these doors dissassembled to examine the bottom of the groove to see whether they'd been chiseled.
dk,
Just for info purposes, here's a photo of a door corner I recently worked on. Reasons for it's being in the shop are apparent--this is the before pic, but the less than diligent makers intent, before the ravages of time, and shrinkage, is I think apparent.
Ray
Hmm - very interesting. The photo makes it look like there's a spline inserted to fill the hole left from cutting a through-groove. Is that the case, or is it actually a haunched tenon?
Funny thing about this subject is how the available tools tend to shape the joinery. Please don't tell anyone I said this, but there are some things a powered router can do that would be a major PITA with hand tools ;-)
Of course, there's quite a few things that are really easy with hand tools that's a major chore with power tools...
dk,
It actually is a haunched tenon. I'm not sure what you are seeing that makes you think there's a spline there, maybe some discoloration or scratches on the rail edge. The haunch was actually left a little longer than needed to fill the groove, and both sides of the joint were open, due to mis-cuts or shrinkage. This is one corner of one of the doors to a secretary bookcase. Doors were in pretty rough shape, they'd been somewhat poorly built, then poorly re-worked later to accomodate shrinkage before I got hold of them. Surprisingly, given the low level of workmanship in the joinery, the level of skill shown in the inlay work was quite good. Maybe the work of two hands--the piece came from a fairly large shop.
Ray
I think my (mistaken) interpretation of the photo was based on color - the haunch looks like a slightly different color than the rail. I kind of wonder if the door was put together properly when it was built 200 years ago and the stile has shrunk across the grain, exposing the haunch and opening up the joint.
Then again, maybe someone was in a big hurry and figured as long as the veneer looked good, what was underneath wouldn't matter, as the customer wouldn't know the difference and the cabinetmaker would be dead before anything failed. Sort of like todays kitchen cabinets. ;-)
dk,
Yah, that old stuff can be a puzzle. I tried to attribute the open joints to shrinkage myself. However, on several corners, (a few fit pretty well) the haunch was bottomed out, leaving the shoulders open. Shrinkage would've opened the whole joint. Besides, the panels showed nowhere near the same amount of movement that would open a joint that much. Assuming the same moisture level throughout, I'd expect the panels to have shrunk out of their grooves. Wish these old pieces could talk. My guess was that the maker miscalculated somehow, leaving the door stock just barely big enough to fill the hole, and was fudging everyplace he could to make them work. Me, I've never had to do that ;-)
Ray
Interesting discussion, guys.
FWIW, I've decided I'd rather fuss with cutting a perfectly sized plug for the end of the grooves in doors like this than mess with haunches. Too often the haunches require too much messing to bottom out perfectly and still have more important parts of the door be where they need to. Also, on smaller doors those haunches can be delicate little b*stards and break out etc.
"Me, I've never had to do that ;-)"
Nope me neither...(ahem, cough, cough).
Samson - I wonder if that might be the reason for the construction I was reproducing; that one did indeed have stopped grooves for the door and mortise and tenon joints (I repaired one of them for the owner). Hard for sure to say how old the piece was, but stylistically it'd fit Pennsylvania German of the middle/late 18th century. Sadly enough, the piece was probably painted (and probably decoratively painted) and was stripped sometime in the 19th century, so now it's just a "country corner cupboard".
i think u hit the nail on the head, most folks built furniture and case goods to either furnish there own abodes or for a living, an time was of the essence back then as now, so they used what was at hand an their most important tool (brain) to accomplish what needed to be done, if they would have had the tools of today, they would've used them, that being said,when i was too poor to afford power tools and learn mostly from hand tooling, i sure had a whole lot less headaches an really enjoy the closeness i had with the pieces i had made back in my younger days
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