While reading a post over at woodcentral it has come to my attention that Jet has been copying Oneways spindle adaptors, safe drivers, spur drivers, faceplates, & live centers. According to Oneway, they have not given Jet permission to do so and aren’t being compensated for it. You can view the thread @ http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?noframes;read=7674 for more details.
I don’t think this is something a responsible corporation should be doing, and I hope people will consider what they are supporting when they buy Jet machinery. Because of the lack of patent laws in Taiwan and China it is also very difficult to resort to legal action. It’s unfortunate that hard working people put a lot of effort into developing a product only to have someone rip off your ideas and have it made overseas for a fraction of the price (and a fraction of the quality).
It’s kind of ironic that the same people who complain about american companies going out of business are the same ones who are buying all of the unathourized knock offs. It would also be ironic if they ended up putting their american competition out of business, as they’d no longer have a place to steal their designs from. It’s one thing when a company decides to manufacture their own products off shore, but when they start stealing other peoples ideas that’s going too far. I guess that also shows something about their ingenuity and business ethics.
well that’s my rant for today.
Replies
Nice rant, Andrew, but I have a couple questions.
You say this is not something a responsible company should be doing. Are the Oneway products patented? Copyrighted? Trademarked? I didn't see any mention of it in the message you linked to. If they are not, what responsibility does JET have, and to whom, that they are breaching by copying Oneway's public domain designs?
Let Oneway sweat this one out. They're the ones with the vested financial interest. If it's actionable, you can bet lawsuits will be filed.
Boycott Jet in the meantime if it makes you feel good.
Doesn't seem to always be that easy. It's often more difficult then its worth to fight someone through the courts when they have much deeper pockets then you. Money talks in politics and courts.
Dittos on boycotting WMH.
Don
"Because of the lack of patent laws in Taiwan and China it is also very difficult to resort to legal action. "
this is just incorrect, intellectual property laws exist in both China and Taiwan, and with China's newly awarded status in the WTO, they are actually enforcing them now. Furthermore, foreign companies operating in the US are fully accountable to all US commercial codes, including intellectual property. Cisco recently had a victory against a Chinese company, operating in the US, that was in fact copying their software.
But the fundamental flaw in your argument is assuming that Jet is a Taiwanese company because they manufacture there. Jet is part of a Swiss family of companies.
Jeff,
I think it's a fair assumption that what is really meant by that statement is that Oneway does not have the resources to take on WMH or Jet. Regardless, it still sucks, and I can take them on. Planned on getting a new PM planner this weekend. I've started my research again.
Also this may not belong here, but I do think it's a fair consideration. Would this be the same Swiss business mentality that kept Nazi plunder after WWII? Doesn't really matter, it's sleeze business practice.
Don
South East Asia's major source of business is manufacturing knockoffs, Americas major insurance componies are the major contributar to generic crash parts being used in the repair of collision damaged moter vehicles. Evan the counterfit headlights( patented by Nisson) were authorized by major insurance componies. just look at all the hand tools that look identical to prominet brand name tools. Snap-On, Vise Grip, Channel Lock, just to mention a few. Ive collected a number of these tools. Many are realy junk, but the one thing the all posses is they look like brand name tools we know and indentify just by the unique shape alone. I suppose I'm a little of track but this kind of thing realy gets my blood pressure up. I spent twenty years working on the generic crash parts issue for consumers. Sorry for the ramble. Ron
the meaning of the statement was prima facie.
as for the Nazi comment... yeah, it doesn't belong here, but you are entitled to your opinion on the matter. Sleeze business behavior, you mean like Enron, Worldcom, Martha, Imclone, Tyco, Global Crossing, Qwest, investment banks (all of them), and many others?
Jeff,
Yep, I sure do! No one has a corner on the sleeze market. They're all pretty disgusting.
Don
Judging from some of the responses it seems like most of you condone this kind of behavior. Now I have no financial interest in Oneway, and I'm not going to lose any sleep if they lose money, or get mad if they haven't patented all of their designs. As far as the courts see it, Jet might not have done anything illegal, but that doesn't change the fact that they are ripping off someone else's design and making a profit off of it. I have lost what little respect I had for Jet in the first place.
I have a huge amount of respect for workers like the guys at Oneway. It's obvious that they take pride in their work, but I don't see that same sense of pride coming from companies like Jet. I would hate to live in a world where no one takes pride in doing a job better than it has to be, and as woodworkers we should all be able to relate to this, but it seems to be the latest trend for multinational corporations. This is why this issue bothers me so much.
IMO Jet ripping off Oneway's design would be a lot like Ikea making a knock off of Sam Maloof's rocker and putting it on the cover of their catalogue.
Even if they haven't done anything illegal from the courts perspective, they are trying to rob the woodworking community of a great company.
Oh, and BTW I am well aware that Jet is owned by WMH and isn't based in Taiwan. Either way, they're still stealing someone else's idea. Personally, I'd much rather give my money to someone who's more interested in giving me a quality tool then fattening their wallet.
"would be a lot like Ikea making a knock off of Sam Maloof's rocker and putting it on the cover of their catalogue. " What about William Morris' design (the Morris chair). That's being reproduced (seemingly) by just about every furniture company in the world right now. Are they on your scum list too?
I don't know anything about the controversy between Jet and Oneway. But, the real world is the real world. A company's mission in life is (partly) to "fatten their wallet" -- that's why they're in business. If Jet truly infringed on a patent or copyright, they should be punished. If they didn't , they're just doing business like everyone else. Doesn't really sound like you cared much for them as a company previously, so no big loss there ("what little respect I had...")forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If a company doesn't protect it's intellectual property through the proven patent process, then they can't expect any protection from the legal system against those who copy all or part of a unique product or design. If they do have patent protection, then use the legal system and take the violators to court, don't *itch about it. Seriously, it's like you expect these companies to abide by some honor system.
I've been reading about this situation on several message boards and it appears to be quite interesting. Oneway is playing the Little Fish vs. the Big Fish card in regards to Jet taking "their" idea. Unfortunately for them, they probably don't have patents on these products. That is because they admittedly based their designs on Nova's. It seems that Nova was getting behind on some orders, and one of their customers requested that Oneway make some product for them replicating the Nova. Essentially they are guilty of the same thing they are accusing Jet of doing.
Furthermore, in a separate situation they are the "Big Fish" in a Little Fish vs. the Big Fish battle with a small Canadian turning supplier named Jaques Coulombe.
It seems to me that Oneway is hypocritical, at best; and, that people are jumping on their bandwagon without knowing much information simply because it is fashionable to suport the "Little Fish" that they are portraying themselves as in this particular circumstance.
By the way, patent laws and their enforcement (or lack thereof) in the Far East are irrelevant to products that are marketed and sold in the U.S. If you are stealing someone's patent or copyright, you are outside the law regardless of where you have the product made.
Take a look at Biesemeyer he designed a fence that is now probably the most cloned of all fences. That fence design was never patented now look, Biesemeyer still makes fences and the design is improved upon. However i hear little "oh whoa look at poor Biesemeyer" they were "ripped off"
the legal system in the civilized world allows for patents and trademarks and copyrights to protect yourself and your business. If you dont take precautions you run the risk of someone taking your design and improving upon it or using it.
Oneway clearly makes a superb product, they will probably survive. However they did learn a lesson, if they did design those items and failed to protect them via the available means then well next time they will know better. And who is to say they didnt derive their designs based on other patented devices, with slight modification just as someone else takes a device and modifies them.
it's entirely possible that Oneway tried to patent these designs and were either denied for being insufficiently novel, or realizing that beforehand, they never even got as far as the application process. not everything that someone thinks up and brings to market is necessarily worthy of the protection of intellectual property laws. the law of the jungle still applies most frequently in most commercial circumstances. concepts like "greed" and "fairness" are impossible to define in an economic sense, so it really does usually just come down to a) what's legal and b) how much you can afford to make others play by those rules. did Jet take advantage of Oneway's initiative in popularizing certain types of turning equipment? probably. was it "unethical" or "unfair"? depends on your definition. was it illegal? probably not.
m
Hi Bill,
Actually I've read the Bessy was a take off another fence anyway. I don't know, but it would seem difficult to get a patent on a cam lock on a square tube. The design might be copyrightable, but that has a lot of limitations.
Kyle, it's easy to say what you did without specifics. Oneway makes a lot of products which from what you have said, all these products were also made by another in Canada? Your research does not identify the apples and oranges. Also, can you verify that Oneway did not get permission to maintain on their own designs from someone else? I don't have the answers to these questions concerning Oneway, but I do have them concerning Jet. Actually I've never been impressed with Jet and their complete line of knockoffs. They take good ideas and make them cheaper. Not less expensive, but cheaper.
What we are reading here is a good example of why so many corporations are in the trouble they are in. A good list of some of those corps. was given earlier. To many, this kind of business is OK. Why not rape retirement funds. No law says you can't, and as long as there is no direct cost to me, so what. What goes around, comes around. Always in one way or another.
Don
Easy on the retirement fund thing.I am still sore from the recent changes to my plan. I guess it is just to big a source of cash to leave alone. I don't trust any corporation anymore. Too bad. Tom
Ah, come on Tom, you should be grateful! They're doing all this for you just like Jet!
Don
Yeah they were even nice enough to give me a website to figure how much to boost my 401k contributions to make up the difference. So considerate.Tom
the bessy fence could very well have been borrowed and redesigned. I have no idea, but the basis was more of the cloned bessy fence and bessy wasnt persuing all the cloned fence companies.
Its rare to find patents on whole objects anymore, but rather a small part or action within an object thats patented.
Its easy to see why lawyers and engineers are needed in patent research, its a complicated issue.
I hadn't intended on spending any time on the computer today , but rather finishing up some projects. I finished machining my new doweling jig early this AM (probably pattentable), soldered the connections to my new sunlamps for darkening cherry, and made 8 dog bones for a complicated cherry countertop installation.
Couple months ago I machined snap in center markers for those white plastic blum drawer face adjuster/attachers. This was for a friend who manufactures cabinets and desks in a cnc shop who's urged me to apply for a patent.
You will never see any of these things excepting unusual bizzare coincidence.
About 6 years ago, the lawyer slime inhabiting congress decided to not only change the American patent laws to favor megabucks corporations in ways too elaborate for me waste my time ranting about; but also to increase the costs to patent applicants by many hundreds maybe thousands of percent over what they had been. The patent office had previously actually shown a profit every year- the only self sustaining govenrment office in this country: not dependant on tax dollars.
Now, of course, it turns a huge profit; all of which goes to the "General Fund" which the lawyer slime and the rest of the slime can slip into their pockets.
Should someone anywhere infringe on my patent, I would be instantly out of business. I cannot afford prosecuting an infringement claim.
No company in this country will even talk to an inventor about anything, unless his patent has already issued. Most small independents cannot now afford the exhorbitant costs of fileing patent applications - much less the costs of enforcing them. The result is the squashing of innovation by all but the megacompanies who have never been known for much but increasing their burocracies, and effecting legislation in their favor through lawyer slime.
The situation as of a couple years ago was that over 52% of all American patents issued went to Japanese conglomerates - all of which are subsidized by the Japanese government.
Clampman
Clampman,
Excellent perspective imo, but there are still some who will think it's all just good business.
Don
Don,
I got most of my information at http://www.woodcentral.com at the message board for turning in a thread called "Oneway vs. Jaques C." I did not mention any products specifically for two reasons: 1) Lack of typing skills (it takes me forever)/ laziness 2) I don't turn (yet) so the product names don't mean anything to me.
I mentioned nothing of another Canadian manufacturer. I did mention that they were having some squabbles with a small Canadian retailer that deals in turning supplies.
A poster on the aforementioned message board/thread posted an email response from Oneway in regards to a question about their relationship with Nova. That email from Oneway states that they based their chucks on the Nova chuck so they could fill an order that Nova was slow to fill. Again, not much different from what they are accusing Jet of doing. Arguably, it is even worse.
If you don't care for Jet and their products, that is perfectly fine. I think they offer a product with excellent fit and finish for the price point at which they sell. Plus, their customer service has a good reputation. I understand Oneway makes an excellent product at a high price point. However; after reading up on this situation, I am not convinced that Oneway is a good corporate citizen or that Jet is a bad one.
Kyle,
Fair enough. As for Jet, I'm pretty convinced about their citizenship, I have been for a while. I'm not convinced of Oneway's. From what you have reported though, it doesn't look good. This premisive attitude to, "all's fair," and "two wrongs make a right," is killing this society imo. Thanks for taking the time to bring the info here.
Don
Kyle, excellent research! And brought a lift to my morning -- too funny that these guys are crying "poor, poor pitiful me" while doing the same to someone else.
Patenting something is a rigorous and expensive process, but these guys are playing on the big stage so they should get used to the stress. Back in the 1980's I had a farrier (blacksmith) named Danny who did all the work on my horses. He was a little, slow-talking cutie who drove around the countryside shoeing horses at $45 a pop or so. Found out, after several years, that in his spare time he was an inventor. He had a patent attorney he worked with, took his little inventions to a couple of industry shows every year and dickered with the Big Guys (e.g., Stanley). He was a tough negotiator and would not let them get away with paying pocket change for something he knew they'd make a few million off of. Never heard him gripe about getting "ripped off."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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