Ok, this is a common question, but I gonna post it again anyway. I have a Jet 6″ jointer (the open stand model). My problem is the cast iron tables move around so much they might as well be made from oak or pine. Many times I have shimmed things back into alignment one day and the next day everything is different again. (yes, I have checked and re-checked the outfeed table height… the outfeed table warps up, lifting the board away from the cutters producing an egg-shaped bottom with an off-center hump). My question is; if I spend the money for a new jointer, how can I be sure it won’t do the same thing. I have read in past threads that the foreign-made cast iron tables are not seasoned properly, but isn’t everything made this way now days? I have been fighting this problem so long, I am ready to weld a chain to this thing and use it as a boat anchor.
Replies
You are dealing with a very common problem with the machinery made today. Un-seasoned cast iron will continue to move for years. It's just a simple fact.
If you buy another new Taiwanese made jointer, you may get lucky, or you may end up with the exact same problem. I got tired of this issue about 10 years ago. I had a 6" Delta, an 8" Delta, and an 8" Powermatic. I never could get any of the 3 to stay in alignment. I stepped up ($$$), and bought a 1957 Northfield 12" HD jointer. Problem solved.
If I were you, I'd check around for a deal on a used older machine. That's your best bet. And, make sure you use a stainless steel chain, or you'll lose your boat anchor to rust.
Jeff
What is a good brand to look for? I have heard of northfield before and even seen their website ( can't seem to find it anymore though). There is a used tool store here in the twin cities area but I am not sure what brands of equipment to look for and which ones to avoid.
I was looking at the grizzly website but, suprise-suprise, their stuff is chinese made too.
What is a good brand to look for? I have heard of northfield before and even seen their website ( can't seem to find it anymore though). *********************http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Isn't going to be inexpensive, though.http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-2007.pdfLeon
use a stainless steel chain, or you'll lose your boat anchor to rust. LOL.. I fell off my chair on that one!
This is far out but not beyond the realm of possibility. And I'am curious. I realize CI moves as it "cures". But is the temperature stable in your shop? And the machines castings the same temp as the shop and not warming up and moving. There are various thicknesses of cast in a jointer table and that difference could easily cause things to move.
Only mentioned this because when I used to start up large steam turbo-generators and slow warming and equal heating of the massive parts was necessary to maintain tolerances between the shell casing and the rotor blade clearances.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
when I used to start up large steam turbo-generators and slow warming and equal heating of the massive parts was necessary to maintain tolerances between the shell casing and the rotor blade clearances.//........Somebody else that did that! Well, I never did IT but I was there!AS I remember, it was VERY HOT in the Generator room!I was just a kid in reform school (1955 or so?)! Just a kid at the time, but never hurt anybody but myself. I just hated school at the time and never went. Yes I'm strange and I still can be. I have no problem saying this.. All children should spend a year or two in Reform School or the Military! Makes you wake up! I had to do BOTH!By the way, our 'House Parents' as we were TOLD to call them were BLACK folks. First time I ever met any! My folks were racsiest for sure by their talk but never told me to be the same.VERY long ago.. But as I remember in reform school (St. Charles Illinois) they would shut down one of the three? furnaces for fire brick rebuild/inspection and make ready for the start up of the other generator to be used with the 'NEW' rebuilt boiler!ALOT OF WORK! Yes, I was in there taking out the brick! Super Heated steam as I remembered.. (No water in the steam?) I never figured that out.. But I was just a kid!) I'm still not sure how that can be!A month or two before starting up the new generator some old guy would come in and make new 'babbet' bearings for the flywheel bearings? I could be wrong in the term I used for the metal he used. All I remember is I lifted the HUGE flywheel with jacks off the mounts and he would take out all the old metal for the bearings and fill with some metal! Add then HAND scrape the surfaces of the bearings for the mount and cap for a 'perfect fit'. As I remember it today it was like some CNC machine and he used some kind of a Draw Knife like you use on wood! He was something! You talk about Excellence!MANY times 'cranking that HUGE flywheel'! The lever that engaged the teeth in the flywheel and I had to crank the flywheel for 360 degrees for all the 'bluing' he applied to the bearings after I tightened the cap to the stand to his specifications.. Yes we had torque wenches then! BIG ONES! As I remember it took about one hour to do that! Gave the Old Timer a rest!I would sleep at night, SO TIRED BUT VERY HAPPY!. That old man was something! He would even share his cigar with me! I still smoke ALOT!Thanks for this post.. I thought, I forgot about the 'Good Old Times'. Even if I forgot, It REALLY was the best time in my life.. OK so it was Second best.. The wife and children and the grandchildren are the FIRST BEST!God I wish I could walk the underground tunnels and inspect the steam pipes for leaks behind my 'Steam Fitter FRIEND' again.. I think I forgot to hug him and my House Parents for one of the best times of my life before my wife said I DO!By the way.. My Black house parents were GREAT! Like ANY Mom or Dad should be.. Strict but .. never hurt you! OK so get on your mind a 'bit',,, AND OFTEN!
What you are describing doesn't sound at all like cast iron warping from stress release, I think you have missed the cause of your problems, there are a lot of other reasons why a jointer won't cut properly.
John White
Lousy, green cast iron, poor machining of the beds and ways... doesn't really matter a whole lot does it?
You can play Taiwanese roulette, buy an old American made jointer, or something new from Europe.
High-quality jointers cannot be had for $289 plus shipping, no matter what magazine tells you so.
Edited 2/7/2008 11:16 am ET by BossCrunk
I reviewed power tools for Fine Woodworking magazine for years and almost never saw an Asian made jointer with warped beds. It is unfair, misleading, and simply incorrect, to condemn all of these machines as being poorly made. And, as I have already pointed out, I don't think that the problems with the Jet machine are due to warpage.John White
.... yet one sees posts all the time with machines that won't perform properly.
Did FW purchase the machines that you reviewed in an anonymous fashion through typical sources or were the machines provided by the manufacturers?
My post didn't blame warped beds per se (although I wouldn't be surprised). I think what I wrote made it pretty clear I was accounting for practically any defect that one could imagine these cheap, entry-level machines would have.
You are on record as believing the quality of the machines coming out of these Taiwanese factories is high. They may be for their price point, but that's little consolation when they won't work.
Not everybody has been employed as a shop manager whose job it was to learn every nuance and tweak imaginable to get a machine to work properly. I feel you think that's all part of woodworking. I think it's not.
I also think that there is a subset of woodworkers, I don't know if you are one of them, that are tickled $hitless when a machine won't work as they get more pleasure from tinkering with the equipment than getting on with the woodworking at hand.
To that end, I have a lot of empathy for the original poster. He has that little open-stand Jet unit but wants to do a little woodworking. I've seen them. They're not much to write home about. If the temperature changes ten degrees they go out of tune. I wouldn't have one regardless of how it measured up in your review.
And if you hadn't noticed the boards lately, a literal mine's worth of salt has been consumed when evaluating the tool reviews that appear in FW and the other mags. People aren't putting a whole lot of stock in them John.
Edited 2/7/2008 1:30 pm ET by BossCrunk
I am one of those woodworkers who was born with the hopes I wouldn't have to rebuild every piece of woodworking equipment for it to work half way decent. I can tell you from being involved in other business and hobbies that in my experiences, ww is far and away the worst in terms of its equipment. Almost everything you buy is half dysfunctional.
And as you say, some enjoy having to tune everything up. Personally, I don't have the time or the desire. I'd prefer to plug and play. Frinstance, when Lie-Nielsen came out with a line of planes that didn't require a day's worth of sole flattening, I was like in ww heaven.
Hey, if we had to fiddlefart with our cars the way we have to with a piece of ww equipment, there would be massive revolution!
"Okay, Ms. Smith, here are the keys to your new Caddy. Now, before you drive it, I highly recommend aligning the wheels, upgrading the tires and re-wiring the radio. Have a nice day."
Damn well put. You and I will by lynched of course. A high-tech lynching worthy of a supreme court justice nominee.
We're not real woodworkers of course. We don't wear overalls with tobacco spittle all over them and have a greasy John Deere cap covering up equally greasy hair. When you and I got into woodworking the first thing we ran out to buy was not a brand new set of socket wrenches, feeler gauges, and brass shim stock.
Excuse me. The Dukes of Hazzard are about to come on. Must run.
Edited 2/7/2008 2:24 pm ET by BossCrunk
"Damn well put. You and I will by lynched of course. A high-tech lynching worthy of a supreme court justice nominee.We're not real woodworkers of course. We don't wear overalls with tobacco spittle all over them and have a greasy John Deere cap covering up equally greasy hair. When you and I got into woodworking the first thing we ran out to buy was not a brand new set of socket wrenches, feeler gauges, and brass shim stock.Excuse me. The Dukes of Hazzard are about to come on. Must run."-----------------------------------------Although I very seldom post, I have been reading this forum for several years and just had to say something about your post.That has to be the most bigoted and elitist post I have ever seen here. I guess that unless someone happens to fit into the proper category in terms of appearance or main vocation of what you think a woodworker should be (i.e., fit into the mold that you were cast from), they obviously are not worthy of being called a woodworker or fine furniture maker. Thanks for opening my eyes - I will be sure to look down my nose at anyone who is not dressed appropriately or may have some dirt under their fingernails.
"That has to be the most bigoted and elitist post I have ever seen here."Yep, but I have standing - I was raised in Arkansas.
Edited 2/8/2008 11:30 am ET by BossCrunk
I don't know of any large piece of power equipment that does not need to be adjusted. Setting up tablesaws is a perfect example. If one is mechanically inclined and knows how equipment works, when it gets off kilter you know how to fix it. It would be wonderful to set up a machine and have it work flawlessly for the next 10 years but I don't think that will happen in my lifetime. I do have one woodworking tool that worked great out of the box, my hammer.
We're not talking about keeping quality equipment in tune (quality for me means Felder, Metabo, old Oliver, et al.). We're talking about getting junk up and running that has a variety of design and manufacturing flaws.
Edited 2/7/2008 2:20 pm ET by BossCrunk
any large piece of power equipment that does not need to be adjusted..........
Hmmm. Lemme think.
There are half a dozen trucks and a coupla tractors I bought last year for the business. They seemed to work without adjustment. My computer worked without adjustment, too, and cost less than half the minimax bandsaw I bought that will likely never function correctly. TV worked good, too. And my lamp and my phone and that conveyor and the forklift and .....
Just funning. But seriously, ww equipment is pretty crappy compared to the equipment of many other industries. It's all in the mindset of the woodworker. Our expectations are incredibly low.
A plane only works if the sole is flat, but we expect to pay for a plane that doesn't work because the sole isn't going to be flat until we fix it. Tell me, when you go to buy a car or a computer or a phone or a lightbulb, do you expect it to not function until you fettle it or to have to complete work the manufacturer should have?
I'm trying not to be a wiseazz, and I mean no animosity. I'm simply saying we accept the inferior or unfinished as standard procedure.
You keep hitting homeruns.
I agree, I am trying to do more woodworking and am trying to take it ,ore seriously. I don't have any big machines. I want them, I will get them, but for now I have to use my smaller tools.
However I dread the thought of spending 1500 or so dollars on peices of equipment, shipping, haveing to deal with their weight, set them up only to have to spend precious woodworking time trying to adjust a machine.
I love woodworking and am eager to learn more but I am not eager for the headaches of machinery. I would love to have a large cabinet saw. But I don't look forward to the dissapointment of setting it up and realizing it needs all kinds of adjustments.
Webby
I'm a hand tool enthusiast after years of working with very high end equipment in a commercial setting. That said, I offer this: weight your budget to buy the best jointer that you can afford. It's the machine that causes the most frustration and angst when it doesn't work as it should.
You would be well served to learn how to joint an edge with a handplane so that when all else fails you can get on with the woodworking. Straightening edges is a requirement. You gotta have a fallback plan.
I hate my jointer (6" Powermatic), not because it's badly made, but just because of the nature of the beast. And you know what, I find I can get on without it just fine. My table saw, fitted with a Forrest 30T WW2, edge joints well enough for invisible glue lines (any saw marks are easily cleaned up with a plane). As for faces, my handplanes alone or my hand planes in combination with my lunchbox planer doa fine job. I'm thinking of selling the jointer and buying a lathe to put in its spot.
I will remember that. Thanks for the advice.Webby
If I bought a Chevy I wouldn't expect it to perform like a Ferrari. But, if the Chevy or Ferrari doesn't work right, I'd take it back.
So, do your homework. Make an educated choice. Then, if it doesn't function correctly, take or send it back. Eventually the manufacturers will get the picture. But it's up to you, not them.
Paul
Actually, I've got to give credit where due. My General table saw came from the factory pretty much in good shape, with no blade misalignments or other major issues. Maybe I'll make a chart .......
GOOD LUCK and MINIMAL SET UP ISSUES WITH
General Table Saw
General Hollow Chisel Mortiser
Delta DJ20 Joiner
Oneida Dust Collector
Bosch Spindle Sander
Lie-Nielsen Planes
Crown Chisels
NOT SO GOOD LUCK WITH
Delta 15" planer
Delta Hollow Chisel Mortiser
Minimax 16 Bandsaw
BenchDog Router Table
Fein Sander
Ryobi Drill Press Table
Lie-Nielsen socket chisels
Not that my experience is representative.
"That said, I offer this: weight your budget to buy the best jointer that you can afford".
Charles, that is the problem: folk are squeezing out $300 for a 6 inch machine and expecting miracles. The problem is further compounded in that this $300 is a lot of money for many people. The last straw is that many folk are unable or just do not have the knowledge to be able to assess the quality of a machine -and they are also influenced by stuff written in magazines etc.
But,I think it is ridiculous to condemn outright all machinery made in China or other Asian countries. A lot of it is good and well made-it will at least do what it has been designed to do. In this part of the world seeing anything other than Asian machinery in machine shops at least is the exception rather than the rule. However this stuff is sourced and backed up by established reputable machinery dealers. If one buys a "Wood Rocket" jointer at a Walmart type place for sixpence what is one likely to get?
Regarding the issue of that jointer with alleged iron creep: to my knowledge even the worst quality cast iron does not keep on warping of its own accord. Once the initial warp or twist is machined away it stays put-unless there is some other factor involved such as uneven tightening or an unsound base etc. But what does one expect for sixpence?
I think that not only Webby, but all prospective woodworms would be well served by learning or being instructed on how to work wood by hand tool methods first before getting onto wood machining.In my past life all apprentices including those who specialised as Wood Machinists in the trade had to do it this way. The #7 or #6 came out when there was a need to shoot an edge or two to a standard higher than run of mill factory standard.
Philip Marcou
I think it's perfectly possible to be lucky and get a machine out of China that works.
It's just not an area where I feel luck needs to enter the equation.
The notion of 'returning' an 800 lb. machine leaves me a bit cold as well. When/if I wrestle something that large into my shop I need to KNOW it's going to do what it's supposed to do. Period.
Edited 2/8/2008 8:33 am ET by BossCrunk
Why is it when we (I) go to pay for something the first thing the clerk asks is "Do you want the $300 extended warranty?" Seems their telling me (us) that it ain't no good to start with!!!!
James
Simple: In the long run, they make more money off people who buy extended warranties than people who don't buy extended warranties.
-Steve
Steve: When they try to sell them, I feel I'm buying an inferior product that probably will break down.
James
"When they try to sell them, I feel I'm buying an inferior product that probably will break down." Has nothing to do with it. The extended warrantees are nothing but insurance, plain and simple. People have been making money off of insurance for eons, back at least to the days when the insurance salesman walked around, door-to-door, every week to pick up the cash premiums from people. It's just another gimmick to make money.
I've bought only one extended warrantee, on a computer that I had an uncomfortable feeling about. It lasted 3 years and 3 months, the policy was for 3 years. It probably wouldn't have died had I opened the *^&)! thing up and cleaned it once in awhile. The capacitor(s) fried.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I still feel that if they didn't push the "extended" stuff I would feel better buying somthing if they didn't. It's like their telling me it's going to go on the blink.
James
A few years back, while I was completing my MBA we discussed ext warrantees extensively in Marketing class. You are correct that they generate huge amounts of revenue. When business comes up with a plan, they look at the MTBF (mean time between failures) to determine how long a product under most cases will live. They calculate a time cost and attempt to go short of that failure time.
We were just contacted by GM to purchase an extended warrantee on our new GMC Acadia for $4,200. They said "but it covers you bumper-to-bumper". My response was, "but, I'll have to have 4,200 worth of breakage just to break even and if that occurs, that sucker is going on the lot!".
As to your comments about computer warrantees, I use to build and sell computers till the dell's & HP's cut the margins to the point of not making it worth it. I still have old customers contact me occasionally to build one, and I tell them to go to Dell or HP, because their service network. If you are computer savy, and can do things yourself, it's not worth it(the contract). On the other hand, if you depend on what's in that box, I'd say get the best contract you can afford. Most people don't realize that warrantee means put it in a box ship it back and they will fix and return. If you are a student, or a business that would not work. Get the on-site next business day. Today computers are so cheap, if it breaks throw it away and get another one. I got my 11 year old son a Toshiba laptop for $500 at Christmas.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 2/11/2008 9:32 am by bones
Edited 2/11/2008 9:32 am by bones
"I got my 11 year old son a Toshiba laptop for $500 at Christmas." Those deals do come along occasionally, don't they? Just this morning, I pulled out the checkbook for a Compaq for $299 (the fact that they're charging me $79 for shipping makes it a little less sweet! I'm figuring it's really $349 + shipping, LOL.) So, next to decide is about any extended service plan. This machine will be used lightly, according to what I've read the hard drive, CPU, RAM and wireless card are all user-accessible. I'm PO'd enough about the exhorbitant shipping that I want to "Just say 'No'" to the extended service plan.
Any thoughts? Here's a pretty throrough one-person review of the unit. The guy is funny, too. He gives a detailed account of everything from the packing Styrofoam on up: "After pulling it out of the Styrofoam and giving it a once over, my first thought was, 'Well, at least no one will want to steal it.' No kidding, this thing is ugly."
I just "need" a laptop to check email, do some web surfing, maybe keep a backup of my Quicken data and a few pictures on, nothing intense at all.
BTW: I have 14 days after delivery to change my mind. so if anyone sees a better deal (but not more expensive!) I'm all ears.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 2/11/2008 4:42 pm by forestgirl
That will work fine for what you want it to do. The only dig I would say is it only has 1 gig memory. For Vista Premium 2 would be my minimum. For E-mail word, excel and stuff it should be fine. For the price, consider it a throw away item. Any problems will probably cause it to be trashed short of a hard drive. Most of the time it's a system board or a display. In those cases it would cost more to repair than to replace. The standard accidental break is depot. You call and they ship you a box to put it in and they will fix and return. It sounded pretty good actually. Back up any data, because it would be lost. Another point people get hung up on sometimes is AMD .vs. Intel. Many moons ago that would have meant something, but not any more. They are both commodities. If you install a program and it appears to be moving slow. Try it with the power supply plugged in. One of the things laptop makers are doing is cutting the processor speed in half when on battery to conserve battery. It can be overridden manually if that is the case. I discovered this when my son added a game he had. The new generation of laptops use juice. Secondly, watch where you leave it! If you lay it on a couch or bed, it will get extremely hot! Take note of the heat vents and keep them clear. The way things are going, I don't expect desktops to stay around.
I like the new apple laptop that fits inside an interdepartmental envelope. Very cool, but not work $2k. I love working anywhere in the house now. I love wireless (secured that is), but that's another discussion. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Thanks, Bones. I couldn't see any pressing reason to go with Premium, at least not now. I can upgrade later if it seems necessary, and add the gig of RAM. Will follow instructions about keeping it where it can breathe!
Tip o' the hat....let these guys get back to woorworking......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
extended warrantees are nothing but insurance, plain and simple.
Oddest thing happened to me recently. I went to purchase some bags for my vacuum (for the house), when I took it to the till the cashier asked if I wanted the extended warrantee with it for fifty cents...
Apparently the store offers extended warrantee on everything but food. Even my local video store offers to insure the DVD's. Waste of money. The only warrantee I've bought in recent months was for my new cell phones.
I wouldn't have one regardless of how it measured up in your review.
So, what jointer would you recommend?
Oh, that would be a #7 right?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
If all you could afford to spend was a few hundred bucks then yep, absolutely, a quality No. 7.
What does an out-of-kilter, tempermental, El Cheapo power jointer do for your woodworking? My guess is not much.
Edited 2/7/2008 2:35 pm ET by BossCrunk
John,
I had a craftsman jointer 6" do almost exactly the same thing described as in the first post. I tried to adjust the tables, knives and after getting it aligned it would cut fine for a project and then go out. This happened after a few household moves and I never could figure out just what had happened. After one move the gorillas who moved us finally broke the thing so it couldn't be fixed. I now have a Delta 6" and after a few moves it is doing just fine.
Greg
I had a delta 6" open stand jointer similar to your's. I was so frustrated over the years and the small capacity, that I had started jointed boards by hand with a LN#7. I finally bit the bullet and bought the Grizzly 12" jointer back in december and Love it! It was not cheap, but what a joy to use. It was around $1,700 delivered and weighs over a 1k LBS. I had to rent an engine hoist to get it off the steel pallet it came on. I've run almost 12" cherry stock across it with flawless results. It requires a 20A 240 circuit, but man what a tool! You can get the 8" for less than a grand now I'm pretty sure. I plan on upgradding to the byrd head this year (when I get my bonus money). Good luck on the decision.
P.S. I offered my old jointer to my brother. He seems to think he can make it work. I used the boat anchor word and said it's free if he comes and gets it!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Easy fix. I think your gibs are loose. Snug them down and see if your jointer doesn't hold its adjustments.
Regards,
Dan
My jointer woes have been going on for a couple of years now. I have had this machine completely apart and cleaned and inspected everything. I even got a book from the library on setting up machine tools ( can't remember the author). The jibs are tight, the ways are clean and free of any burrs/damage, etc., I have run and re-run the setup and adjustment process so many times I have lost count. There is a hump in the middle of the outfeed table which runs the width of the table and the infeed table has a dip in the middle. I even went out and bought a precision ground straight edge to check the flatness of the tables. Shimming the ways fixes the problem, but only temporarily. Sometimes the thing cuts so flat, you couldn't get 2 atoms between the boards, sometimes it cuts so crooked all I can do is curse its very existence. I bought the machine for $400 bucks at a menards store 4 or 5 years ago and it worked great for the first couple of years. Maybe it is a Jet factory second or something, I don't know. I do know it has an aluminum cutterhead while all the other JJ06s jet machines I have seen have a steel head. I have given up on the machine, I think I'll just take it out and have it euthanized and go buy a different brand.
seajai,
I've seen this many times. I think you have yourself so worked up about the problem that maybe you're not thinking clearly? Done it myself many times but as you get older it happens less frequently. Just what ya wanted to hear right?
Suggestions: Go do something else for a while. Get a first hand second opinion. Find someone who knows woodworking machinery and get them to come to your woodshop and have a look.
I have, perhaps an older model of the same Jet as you do. I bought it second hand from my sawyer a little over a year ago, it was over 10 years old then. When the business grew it outgrew their use of the jointer, upgraded to a 12".
It came with more rust on the tables than you can imagine. I stripped it all down completely; tore the whole machine completely apart. Cleaned up everything to as close to new as I could and reassembled it. Works like a chanp and I ain't no machinery mechanic.
I take 1/16" slices when I use it. This little bugger ain't meant to hog wood. If I need to remove a lot of wood, like in tapered legs, I get 'em close on the TS/BS then refine on the jointer.
You'll get it, just be patient. In your post you said it worked great for the first couple of years, right? Whatta ya think.............
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/8/2008 9:40 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob..I've seen this many times. I think you have yourself so worked up about the problem that maybe you're not thinking clearly?I do that when my leaf blower will not start!
Will,
I'll never forget that post. Thanks, another chuckle today.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
See my post above to bruce? above
Edited 2/8/2008 12:04 pm by WillGeorge
Cabinet saw... works fine right off the crate
18" Band Saw... works fine right off the crate.. exception- changing to a quality blade and sawing off the bottom 3 inches on the blade guard to see the upper bearing clearly.
20" planer.. works fine right off the crate
8" jointer.. works find right off the crate after bolting table to base and making a belt tightening adjustment
600 lb. industrial floor mortiser.. works fine off the crate
15" Drill press.. works fine off the crate after lifting head to attach to column and bolting
14" Band saw.. works fine off the crate
6" jointer.. works fine off the crate after bolting table to base and tightening belt before selling locally.. Works fine for the gentlemen 12 miles down the street that bought it
Must be the luckiest man alive! I did open the crate on all those machines except the planer and mortiser before I loaded them on a pick-up and inspected for defects on major components.. On those two, I ask the distributor to go over them as they would be opened and inspected before I signed the truck way bill. They were fine as reported by the distributor before they shipped. They arrived un-damaged.
I think I will buy a lotto ticket with that luck.... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge,
I'm with you. All my equipment worked fine of the crate. I guess I did have to put a quality blade on my bandsaw...
Then again, I don't own any of these gauges for measuring if something is .0000001 of an inch off. It's just not very important to me, or the final quality of my work...
Buster
It helps to do a little home-work before the purchase IMO, Buster. All things in the same price range are not necessarily equal. And that is true with the Euro machines also, including vehicles which I have worked off and on with for 40 years.
It would be an act of deception (or blowing smoke.. brain-washed.. whatever) to blanket and declare all Euro machines (there are a lot more than just Felder) as quality without the chance of defect or design flaw off the line, IMO. There are two BS's that are put out by two distributors here as an alternative to their top of line. I went over both at IWF in Atlanta and both are junk for the ridiculous amount being asked compared to their top seller. I much prefer the Pacific I purchased as it is better designed and better quality, frankly.
In the upper end Euro to U.S. market, most (but not all) get caught by quality control before they hit the distributors door. Knowing that is the reason I prefer to open the crate and have a look before I sack it up and take it home with the price range I purchase. With the Pacific Rim price point, final quality control checks don't fit into the budget as well as the Euro machines where profit margins and customer expectations run higher due to the name label printed on the side.l
So far.. so good and I don't have more invested than I can justify in a life-time of non-commercial use......
Regards...
Sarge..
It helps to do a little home-work before the purchase IMO, Buster.
Agreed; though I believe that Canadians have it a bit easier than you guys. Hobbyists have surprisingly few options when it comes to stationary power tools. General, General International, <!----><!----><!---->Steel<!----> <!---->City<!----><!---->, Canwood, King, and Craftex. Locally that’s all my choices. The last three are the much lower quality imports, Craftex being our Grizzly (though I’ve never heard a good review…). General is of course very pricey, for most hobbyists it’s probably overkill. GI and <!----><!---->Steel<!----> <!---->City<!----><!----> are really the sweet spot machines in terms of price and quality; I’d feel comfortable buying machines for either company.<!----><!----><!---->
Even though most of us like to think we make our purchases based on facts, it’s probably not the case. Our emotional response to an item far exceeds our need or the function of an item. We really want to believe that all tools made in <!---->Asia<!----> are poor quality, while all things made in <!---->Europe<!----> are the best. In reality these blanket generalizations are fairly meaningless. We see them all the time here on knots in the <!----><!---->LV<!----><!----> vs. LN vs. Old <!----><!---->Stanley<!----><!---->…<!----><!---->So far.. so good and I don't have more invested than I can justify in a life-time of non-commercial use...
By the looks of it you've done very well.
Buster
Jet 6" jointer/boat anchor
Any woodworking tool is like a LADY.. Takes time to learn and patience........... ORg et A bit rough if she likes that!
I bought an 8" jointer a few years back. It works ok but why does one really need a jointer?
Some of the sleds designs for use with a planer seems like the way to go. Auto feeder, small footprint, easy to move around, cost effective and possibly much safer. Get the two faces smooth and parallel and square the edges in the table saw.
Don
"but why does one really need a jointer?"
One does not really need a power jointer.(Seems to be an American thing).
One really needs a SURFACER, which will be at least 12 inches wide and the longer the better. So that one surfaces one face and edge of each board before it is put through a thicknesser....Since it is also long it will joint as well.
I never have understood why folk have , say, a 20 inch planer, but no surfacer except for a mingey 6 inch item.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I have never heard of a surfacer so did some checking. The only technical reference I located seemed to suggest that there is no real difference between a surfacer and a planer. The reference was clear that a warped board going in would come out warped, so the need for getting one face flat before surfacing would still apply.
The more I think about the sled/planer idea the more I think I will be selling a decent 8" jointer this spring.Don
Don, before any rough sawn board is put through what you call a planer and I call a thicknesser, it must be SURFACED on one face and one edge. The process of surfacing also straightens the board. The process of surfacing the edge results in straightening it ie. jointing that edge.
It is very poor practice to simply put rough sawn boards through a planer (thicknesser) without having surfaced one face-that face is required to reference against the lower table of the machine. The job of the typical planer or thicknesser is to machine to a consistent thickness, not to straighten, unless it has long tables and several heads as in industrial machines.
Now I begin to understand why folks say their machines are not feeding, making snipes, poor finish etc.
If you think of a surfacer as an extra wide jointer you should get what I am trying to say. A smallish surfacer will have a table width of at least 12 inches and a table length of 96 inches. A matching thicknesser for that will have a table width of just over 12 inches.
Hope that helps.Philip Marcou
Don, as Philip described, outside North America jointers are called surfacers, surface planers, or sometimes planers. To be more specific a hand fed surface planer is properly called an overhand surface planer. I've never seen one outside North America narrower than 10" wide. Most take a 12" wide cut, or more.
Now what the North Americans call a planer, I'm fairly sure pretty much the rest of the world knows as a thicknesser or thickness planer.
Outside North America I suspect most small businesses and amateur woodworkers use a combination planer/ thicknesser-- that's certainly the case in most of Europe, but I'm not sure about Ockerlanders or Kiwistanis, et al. It's generally only larger businesses that have separate surface planers (US jointers) and thicknessers (US planers.) Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
That is about what my research yielded. A different name. I did find an auction listing for a used planer/surfacer. The company that made that one (SCMI) doesn't any longer. They have conceded to producing jointers and planers.So, how much machine iron (not hand tool iron) do we really need, in a one man shop, to make a piece of tree usable?
1. Jointer to surface the first face
2. Table saw will square both edges to the face and with a jig, will allow both edges to be straight and parallel.
3. Planer will surface the second face parallel to the first.
4. Miter saw or table saw with sled to cut to length.So by employing jigs and sleds we can use the table saw to accomplish a number of tasks.
Why not take the same approach with the planer?
Dump the jointer in favor of a decent planer and Keith Rust's sled described in FWW #175.
When I started woodworking in school, you had to have a jointer. There was no planer in the school shop. When I knew I was going to have a dedicated shop, I went out and bought an 8" jointer. It does the job, but it has a 73" bed and weighs 450 lbs. Compared to my other tools, it is in the way more than it gets used.
I think that the introduction of the benchtop planer provides and attractive alternative to surfacing that first face.
Yes there will be a jointer for sale in the Edmonton area soon.Don
The basic machinery for truing and cutting stock to width and length is as you describe it Don.
Rip saw and/or bandsaw
Cross cut saw of some sort, eg, radial arm saw, sliding table saw, chop saw, etc
Surface planer (jointer, N America)
Thickness planer, or combination surface planer/thicknesser.
I've never found any productive use in your suggestion of, "Dump the jointer in favor of a decent planer and Keith Rust's sled described in FWW #175." Too slow, too fiddly, too uncertain, too much wasted time.
However my point of view is coloured because furniture making, furniture design and teaching the subject is my living. If time is not an issue then a sled or carriage rig-up and thicknesser will get the job done-- but I'd really dislike working with such an inefficient kerfuffle. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Look for a nice older used jointer such as powermatic. Then you know the iron is seasoned and stable.
Honestly though, I haven't heard of this problem being a common frustration. I have a used 6" grizzly jointer from the 80's and it's been extremely reliable and accurate. And it was only $200.
I think this sounds like a problem you should take up with Jet customer service. I would imagine they might just send you a new jointer and it's hard to believe that all their tools are that bad.
Buy a Powermatic and your troubles are over. Good quality and easy to set up. Costs more, but you get what you pay for.
Pena
Edited 2/11/2008 4:04 pm ET by Pena
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