does anyone have much experiance working with jatoba…aka brazillian cherry???
i recently completed a staircase where the newel posts and handrails were made of jatoba to match the adjacent hardwood flooring.
while the wood looks great, i found it to be hard almost to the point of brittle.
It was also harder on my tools than any other wood i have ever worked with. I had to change table saw blades twice, change my RAS blade, and my jointer and planer knives have no kind of edge left on them at all. I don’t even want to talk about what it did to my handrail tooling for my shaper.
I had to sharpen my chisels and plane blades every few hours while i was using them. you couldn’t have dulled tools any quicker cuttting into a giant block of sandpaper.
when i set up my lock miter for doing the newel posts I cut and glued up a 3 foot long test piece to see how it would finish out. It looked great, so i built and installed the other newel posts. since that time the test piece has been sitting in my shop and has almost torn itself apart. it has twisted over 1/4″ out of square from top to bottom (like wringing out a wash rag) and one face has cracked almost the entire length.
So far there has been no similar problems on the installed pieces, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t really nervous at this point.
I started with 8/4 and 12/4 wood that was very clear and uniform, It was well dried and sat in my shop for several weeks before i started the project. I machined the pieces to rough dimensions and allowed them to sit over a week before cutting to final dimensions and assembly. there was no noticable twisting or cupping during that time.
i’m just curious if anyone else has had similar experiance in working with this wood, it looks like a million bucks when finished, but i’m almost scared to use it again…
Replies
I installed Jatoba hardwood flooring and I have similar experiences but not quite as extreme. I did go get my compond miter saw blade resharpened after I did the whole floor but the blade did get through it. My planer and jointer survived it as well. The wood is very hard and heavy however as far as I know it does not have silica in it like teak does. The only other thing that would make me hesitate to use it is the extreme color variations from tree to tree and board to board. I bought a 10 foot length of it to make thresholds for the floors, that and alll the floor boards are very different which could bother some but not me. I made a bunch of small keepsake boxes out of scraps of Jatoba and figured maple and they look wonderful when finished with teak or boiled linseed oil.
I made a coffee table of jatoba. Although I found it hard and heave I didn't have the trouble you did with tool dulling. Nor did any of my stock want to twist up badly. I cut it into veneer and also used it as solid for the top. It is beautiful wood.
I use IT to make precision tools. Material is recalcitrant and requires special prep, tough on tools, etc.
Notwithstanding, its tougness/hardness properties are those that I seek. I pay dearly for them, 3 hand sandings on surface plate granite before drilling, joinery and glue up. Then more of the same before before the cuttings for the blades. Very unforgiving, but whence lapped and flattened this way; it stays this way.
Routers
That wood is a serious PITA.
I got a good deal several years ago on about 50 board feet of jatoba. I used some to make a wall cabinet, but the rest has sat there untouched. It's just too much of a pain to work with.
I haven't had any problems with it warping over time, but it was really badly case hardened when I bought it, and actually stopped my TS blade and popped the circuit. I had to use a chiseld and hammer to get the kerf open enough to get the blade out.
It's got a janka rating of 2350 or 2820 or some other big number depending on what site you look at. Teak is around 1150. Jatoba also contains silica.
I've had nicks in (hand) plane blades after planing just a few square feet of teak.
Love the stuff. I've made several pieces with it, and am currently making something with some curly Jatoba.
Yep, it's hard. But I've never had it twist or warp. Could it be the pieces you have were not really dry? Did you check the moisture content, allow it to acclimate, etc?
But like Pat, the properties of Jatoba is what I also seek. I make some jigging from scraps and use it for set up blocks I want to keep permanently.
Take care, Mike
I would love to have some flooring & stair treads made of jatoba, but that is all. It is among the hardest wood in existence. I tried turning it, but definitely needed carbide tools. The smallest catch was disastrous. It went ugly dark with an oil finish. I don't remember if I use linseed or tung. It was probably tung.Cadiddlehopper
Here's a picture frame made from Jatoba, Ebony and most likely some scrap Paduak for the keys. The finish is Teak oil and shellac.
http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/boxes/slides/key_0001.jpg
I made a few of these just over two years ago, the picture was to illustrate the miters. I took the picture just over a year ago. No change in color from the day it was finished.
I have turned several tool handles and some pens from it as well as made saw handles with it, my wife has turned many pens and small lidded boxes with it. In my case, the turning is with vintage Buck tools, in her case, vintage Swan turning tools. Neither are carbide.
I work mostly with hand tools. The moving fillister plane used to create the rebate for the picture and glass is an old vintage plane--no carbide there. The smoother likewise.
Yes it is hard on tools, but I wouldn't classify it as any worse than some others. Certain Aussie woods I understand are harder on tools. My experience with Ipe is that for the combination of hardness and potential for tear out is that it is worse.
Keeping tools sharp is more a method of work than anything else. I fequently hone the tools I use during use, regardless of the wood. Makes for a best working condition.
Take care, Mike
Mike,That is one very handsome frame. I'm gonna steal (mostly) the design, thanks.Rich
Thanks for the kind words, Rich. It's a simple design. Here's a head-on view:
http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/boxes/slides/108_0869.jpg
But the index page is here:
http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/boxes/index.html
Take care, Mike
Love the splined frame corner with contrasting wood, My signature way on frames too.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
As you can see,I like the general design.One of mine in maple -
Hi Rich--I like the subtler contrast such as yours. Good job.
I have since made some other frames using same-species end-grain and liked it very much.
Take care, Mike
When I see reports such as yours, I can't help thinking that the wood must be quite variable or more than one species is being marketed as jatoba or Brazilian cherry. The stuff I have is so hard that I fear working it with hand tools. I cut one blank with gouging a dish in mind. I have never attempted it because I dread reshaping my gouges when finished if not before finishing!Cadiddlehopper
All wood species vary [to a greater or lesser degree]--even if cut from within the same stand.
I almost work exclusively with what we in the US call exotics. From Bubinga burl to Cocobolo, Rosewood to Lyptus, Bloodwood to Katalox, Ipe and Verawood to ... name it. Love 'em all.
Yes, they dull tools faster. Yes some get scraped to a finish and some get sanded via the drum sander. But most all pare well. Take detail wonderfully.
Just means blades are honed frequently. Nearly always after each board or operation. That is acceptable to me as it only takes seconds to do.
Take care, Mike
"most all pare well. Take detail wonderfully." Alas! I scrape mostly. Except for using a bowl gouge, I haven't done too well at paring. Yes, jatoba can hold sharp details if I can ever get them cut! I found that when scraping, if my tool caught even slightly, a big chunk would come out sort of like a bite of cotton candy. I'm glad you like jatoba. There seems to be a flood of it on the market at present. LOL!Cadid
Allow me to add my vote for "devil's wood," - Brosimum paraense, bloodwood. You want red? This wood is red! And it stays that way. Heavy and hard.It's gorgeous, sands and scrapes beautifully, takes oil without looking at all muddy, I like to finish with lacquer, it finishes and polishes like stone. And there's the problem.This wood works like it is filled with granite grit and glass. It dulls tools very fast. And it sheds splinters if you just look at it. Splinters is not really the correct description. More like glass shards. Impossible to handle without gloves after sawing without getting a few of these, And they HURT!But man, is it nice when you're done.Rich
One more point about bloodwood - it bleeds. Use an alcohol based finish on it - shellac - and watch the color run!
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 7/31/2006 1:08 pm by Rennie
Oh,Is that what that was? There was so much of my own blood. I didn't notice . . .Not really. But I don't think I would ever have come across that fact/problem. Shellac is not a finish I ever use on tropical hardwoods. No real reason I can give, other than it just doesn't seem like the right one to use. I mostly use lacquer. Or oil finishes on those woods that will accept them.Rich
I had used the bloodwood as an accent wood and the entire piece was getting a spit coat of shellac as sealer/grain enhancer when I noticed the 'runs'. A real bummer.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Dear C,
I've worked with it quite a bit and it sounds like you ran into some tough pieces. It is a beautiful material, although the color variations can be challenging at times. I built some fairly large desktops ( 1 1/2" x 30" x around 40', sectioned in a "U") and found that it glued well, but was hard on tooling, as I was milling it from rough stock. The dust was a bit noxious as well. The only material that I found to be harder on tooling is IPE. That will simply murder equipment and the dust is about as nasty as can be. That would get my vote for the "devil's wood".
Best,
John
(Evil)
If you want a challange try turning the "devils wood" I've done a couple of bowls and it was tough going but the results were stunning. The irridescence and shimmer are beautiful when you get the "1/4 sawn" effect on a turning.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
That must be gorgeous! One aspect that was unexpected when I did the desk tops was sort of a "tiger stripe" that moves a bit depending on the angle that it is viewed at. A bowl must be just terrific.John
It has some undesirable characteristics like a lot of hardwoods, but these are far out weighed by its good appearance and performance . I have used two parcels of about half a cubic metre each and found no unreasonable variation in the timber characteristics or appearance.
It is pretty damned hard and heavy has a fair share of silica (but no stones like Iroko can have) and is reasoanbly stable. Iused it mainly for bar tops with thick moulded edges which had to be built up: there was no undue movement.
Like many hardwoods it is not easy to plane by hand Bailey type plane, but scrapes beautifully and I just planed across the grain to flatten and minimise smoothing, then finished with scrapers and minimal sanding.
Takes finishes like catalysed lacquers very nicely which enhance the handsome colours.
For the right application the final result is well worth the extra effort. I rate it as good stuff.
If I had thicknesses other than only one inch stuff I would also be using it for plane knobs and totes.
Edited 7/31/2006 3:49 am by philip
If I had thicknesses other than only one inch stuff I would also be using it for plane knobs and totes.
Hi Philip--you mean like the 8/4 and 12/4 stock I have standing not 20 feet from me <g>.
When I had the cabinet shop, I bought all the 8/4 stock that was nicely grained, and especially the QS 8/4 that came available. I've made several display cabinets and drinks cabinets from the stuff, and of course the odd series of picture frames and boxes from scrapes.
Iroko is worse, like Ipe. As well, I hear y'all have some even worse timber in NZ and Aussie-land. Not that I am masochistic, but I would like to build some cabinets from Black Bean one day...
Take care, Mike
ps...not to hijaak the thread, how's the next plane designs coming?
Yah Mike, there's nothing wrong with threads sort of evolving....Actually, since being in NZ, I have often been warned about this wood or that wood "Haaaarrrd as buggery , mate" or words to that effect- only to find that said woods were relatively mild .It boils down to what one is used to and what methods and tools one is "married" to.
Do you recall the rev I got for suggesting that surfacing boards by hand was not really a good way to go? I have only seen this Black Bean, but I guess it must relatively amenable otherwise these guys here would not be able to use it, especially the Australians (;)
Re the next plane designs: one is about to bite wood and the other is about 30 percent done, and there is also a brand new web site cobbled together by a well known personality-legions of Galoots bear allegiance to him- soon to hit the cyber waves.There you will see the new plane....
Do you use the Jatoba for saw handles?Philip Marcou
Actually, if we are to talk of the devils wood, I nominate Wenge for the title.
When finished, it does look striking. But the working of the stuff is another story. I had forgotten how nasty the stuff was until just recently when I made just one knob and tote set for a plane: I had several splinters (impossible to even look at it without getting splinters) and the whole place was coated in a black dust, like a coal mine. And furthermore, I found a timber merchant here who stocked a few sticks of 2" stuff- I bought one short piece- cost here in NZ is NZ$8000 per cubic meter! Yet in Mozambique it is used for pit props, warf pilings and latterly to make charcoal....
Hah. I laugh at hand planing Wenge <g>...
The stand is hand dimensioned and planed Wenge:http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/display/index.html
Though started a year ago, this isn't finished--it is hiding in a room upstairs. The top and bottom of the case is Bubinga that was one solid piece. Cut the width in two, then resawn--capacity issue of the bandsaw--jointed and glued back to make the width. Bet ya cannot find the seam in the pictures of the top...
But really, I agree that it is nasty to work. Very easy to cause run and splits. Makes it more difficult in its own way compared to Jatoba.
I don't have a picture of the vase, but my wife turned a two-piece vase made of board scraps of Purpleheart face-glued to make the height of 11" and a top "cap" of Wenge. She didn't much like turning it either. But it came out nice. She made the vase as a study for turning a Pink Ivory and Ebony version. When she chose to make it from those scraps, I tried to warn her what turning a vase of end-grain PH with the top of Wenge would be like...
Take care, Mike
Pink Ivory, Beautiful ! And I loved turning it. Made a little ring bowl. Is there a way to keep the pink from fading to yellowish. At it's cost I should have framed the waste.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
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